Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Sulaima

Trinity acording to the holy Quran

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

I dont find it rediculous that you disagree with me. On the contrary I understand. If you assume that the Quran does not contain any faults, it is not possible that it speaks about the millions of Christians that know Jesus did not command them to worship Mary as a God. It has to be somebody else that the Quran is referring to. Could it be the illiterate craftsman in 7th century Medina, that believed Jesus had commanded him to worship Maria, and therefore will end up in hell after doomsday?

I am not a Muslim so I am free to believe Muhammad was talking about Christianity, and not a small sect that could not read the Bible.

could it be the illitrate craftsman in 7th century medina?why?but this is very hard to imagine.if its only an ignorant craftsman worshippin mary (as) ,to prove what you are sayin is right,then the more "enligtened" christians ougt to have stoped him.but when he does that and they see that as delightful and honor for mary,then its as good as all of them worshippin mary.and thats what the quran calls "excesses" in your beliefs.and also this verse could be referin to a parctice that might just pop up in the future,so lets wait till judgements day.and please when we are concentratin on one subject dont drift us into another.this topic has nothin to do with the quran's authenticity.and i dont "assume" the quran have no faults.but i believe and am convinced.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

Sulaima, we can go round and round with this you know. The fact still stands that this verse does not refer to THE Trinity.

Also, the fact of the matter is that based on Islamic criteria, what the Sacremental Chuches do in regards to the Saints and Mary in particular does amount to worship. So this verse has perfect relevance.

Besides, if you wanna go into "well Muhammad didn't understand it very well, or maybe he didn't read the bible..." We may as well also speculate whether the early Church fathers knew the first thing about the Torah or God(as it seems they seriously missed the mark).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(bismillah)

Sulaima, we can go round and round with this you know. The fact still stands that this verse does not refer to THE Trinity.

Also, the fact of the matter is that based on Islamic criteria, what the Sacremental Chuches do in regards to the Saints and Mary in particular does amount to worship. So this verse has perfect relevance.

Besides, if you wanna go into "well Muhammad didn't understand it very well, or maybe he didn't read the bible..." We may as well also speculate whether the early Church fathers knew the first thing about the Torah or God(as it seems they seriously missed the mark).

It is a logical conclusion that if 5:116 doesnt reffer to a missunderstood Christian trinity teching, it must reffer to a today little known or unknown sect or individual, or a sect to come. Which of these possibilities is a matter of belief, and can not be a proven fact. I find it very unlike that the Quran opposes anytyhing else than the large Christianity. As a Muslim it is not possible for you to share my opinion, so yes, we will "go round and round".

You are deffinitely wrong that Christian Churches worship Mary as a God. I dont know any other religion that does. But since a Muslim today believe Christians do, it is even more likely that Muhammad had this belief in a time when there were many illiterates, and there were not many copies of the Bible around in arabic language. If at all translated.

and i dont "assume" the quran have no faults.but i believe and am convinced.

I know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

one thing also that must be taken into consideration is the meanings of "deity".you may not recognize her directly but the way you revere her might be in that way.and also what does "mother of god " mean?its like "mother of a king".she is either a princess or a goddess.and to this am hinting at the catholic beliefs.and its includes the "assumption".and "sulaima" you've not responded to what i said in my last post.

Edited by mehdi soldier

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
one thing also that must be taken into consideration is the meanings of "deity".you may not recognize her directly but the way you revere her might be in that way.and also what does "mother of god " mean?its like "mother of a king".she is either a princess or a goddess.and to this am hinting at the catholic beliefs.and its includes the "assumption".and "sulaima" you've not responded to what i said in my last post.

"O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?"

Catholics distinguish clearly between Gods and Saints, (ask the pope or any catholic priest). I dont know any church that teaches that Jesus commanded it's followers to worship Mary as a God. As a matter of fact, I do not know any other religion that commands its followers to worship Mary as a God either. The fact that I dont know of any, doesnt mean they may exist/have existed somewhere, but I refuse to believe the Quran is dealing with a small unknown sect, when the entire Christianity worshipped a trinity, God-Jesus-Holy Spirit. Just like Jesus had told them to do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?"

Catholics distinguish clearly between Gods and Saints, (ask the pope or any catholic priest). I dont know any church that teaches that Jesus commanded it's followers to worship Mary as a God. As a matter of fact, I do not know any other religion that commands its followers to worship Mary as a God either. The fact that I dont know of any, doesnt mean they may exist/have existed somewhere, but I refuse to believe the Quran is dealing with a small unknown sect, when the entire Christianity worshipped a trinity, God-Jesus-Holy Spirit. Just like Jesus had told them to do.

i never raised out the possibility of a small sect or even as you saiod and i replied a craftsman worshippin mary and the rest lookin at him with admiration!

but all that am tryin to hint at is how "deity" can be defined.mary is the "mother of god".so she's part of the "divine family".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
but all that am tryin to hint at is how "deity" can be defined.mary is the "mother of god".so she's part of the "divine family".

That is your own conclusion, it is certainly not a christian. Mary is the Mother of Jesus, but she is not a God, only a Saint, a holy person. With an expression like "divine family" my thoughts goes to Egypt and the Farao. The Bible doesn't mention a "divine family".

Christians also obey the first command. Muslims dont think they do. Christians teaching is that God is one person, and that the trinity God-Jesus-Spirit is one person. To worship Mary as a God would mean to break the first command. To worship Jesus as a God doesn't mean breaking the first command. I did not make these "rules", they also seem not logical to me, but I must accept that they are Christian dogma. You are looking for something that isn't Christian.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That is your own conclusion, it is certainly not a christian. Mary is the Mother of Jesus, but she is not a God, only a Saint, a holy person. With an expression like "divine family" my thoughts goes to Egypt and the Farao. The Bible doesn't mention a "divine family".

Christians also obey the first command. Muslims dont think they do. Christians teaching is that God is one person, and that the trinity God-Jesus-Spirit is one person. To worship Mary as a God would mean to break the first command. To worship Jesus as a God doesn't mean breaking the first command. I did not make these "rules", they also seem not logical to me, but I must accept that they are Christian dogma. You are looking for something that isn't Christian.

well you beter get hold of your thoughts before they leave the euphrates river and cross the red sea!

blah,blah,blah,bla....

first remember that we are talkin about the larger picture of the verse you presented and not the case which the verse made which you agreed could be at a lesser scale.

the fact remains that catholics call her the "mother of god".and whether they say shes a saint is not the issue.thats just a deceptive way when naming people or things to suite your beliefs.on the one hand you have a god whose the "son of God" with a mother and yet his mother is "assummed" and there is a father yet you say shes just a saint.yes thats the way you pack up your beliefs and throw that which doesnt suits you.but its obvious that shes part of the "divine family".tell me again that my conclusion and i would say its the reality.

no you cant obey the first command when you believe that a "god" thats a "son of God" is a god himself individual when another caled the "father" also another god exists somewhere else.to this i must say jehovah witnesses are a bit smarter than you are in my opinion.if this "god" is a part and share a substance of God ,and is a "god" then how can he be a "son".if you must disregard the "mother of god" as a goddess you are like wise disregardin the "son".and if you bring in the substance theory then disregard the son theory,because you are talkin of only one individual transformin *if tahst accepted by you*but when this inherited substance creates "divine number 2" thats polytheism.ANYWAY THAT*TRANSFORMATION OF THE SAME ONE INDIVIDUAL* WONT WORK,BECAUSE BOTH JESUS AND "THE FATHER" WERE EXISTIN AT THE SAME TIME IN DIFFERENT PLACES.little wonder the "trinity" is a hopeless case.no matter how it turns and twist its alsways lackin.

but when we have that "son" thats a god and that becomes two "gods".?when you make him that "son of GOD",THEN WE NEED THE "MOTHER".and that what again i call the divine family!

just the way you say to worship mary as a god is breakin the first commandment,i say worshippin jesus is likewise.just the way you shovelled a place for jesus in divinity ,anyone can do that for mary and even for you and myself.and i believe the catholic could have being "smarter" if they had wished not to stop at the "assumption" theory.

"The Bible doesn't mention a "divine family".

neither does the bible mention "trinity".so you can twist and turn verses like you did for "trinity" to make mary's "divinity" established!

"I did not make these "rules", they also seem not logical to me, but I must accept that they are Christian dogma. You are looking for something that isn't Christian."

yes seem illogical to you and yet you must accept them.yet again the bible says God is not the author of corruption.but ofcourse you must accept them because thats what you've being spoon fed.and you cant tell athanasius and his predecessors and successors that you are justifyin the unjustified.i guess you accuse me of "lookin for something that isnt christian" because i dont let your "lookers" dictate for me what is and what isnt.

Edited by mehdi soldier

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Mehdi Soldier

I understand your logic. Worshipping Jesus or his Mother as a God means breaking the first command. But Christian dogma is not to worship Mary ("the mother of God"), only Jesus ("God"). Christian dogma (and the Bible canon that it is founded upon)), was established several hundred years before the birth of Muhammad. I didn’t say I believe this dogma is the truth, only that it is dogma. Like I must accept that it is Muslim dogma that the Quran has no faults, even thou, as you can see, I don’t believe this is true. No matter how hard you try, you can’t change Christian dogma (or the Bible canon), and I don’t think the Pope will do, so you really are looking for something that is not Christian. I know you don’t like this, because it means that Muhammad had a wrong understanding of Christian teaching. Which again means that the Quran does contain faults. I can’t help that either. Sorry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

Again, in the simplest terms, no where does that verse explicitly make reference to the trinity. Sometimes it talks about Allah and the Christian misunderstanding that Jesus is his son. It makes reference, as we have all told you, to various blasphemous relationships that his(God) creatures have set up with him falsely. The verse in question refers to the worship of Mary. I understand that Christians do not regard their veneration of her as worship, but in Islam, we do. The Quran is not supposed to reflect the Christian view on these matters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(bismillah)

Again, in the simplest terms, no where does that verse explicitly make reference to the trinity. Sometimes it talks about Allah and the Christian misunderstanding that Jesus is his son. It makes reference, as we have all told you, to various blasphemous relationships that his(God) creatures have set up with him falsely. The verse in question refers to the worship of Mary. I understand that Christians do not regard their veneration of her as worship, but in Islam, we do. The Quran is not supposed to reflect the Christian view on these matters.

"O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?"

Followers of Jesus do not say that Jesus commanded him to worship his mother. Either the Quran is speaking about some other religious group than christians, or the Quran believes that christians will say that Jesus told them to worship his mother. But the latter is simply not correct. Read the Bible and you wil see for yourself. Muhammad didn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

Just because the New Testament contains no implicit command to worship Mary, it doesn't change the fact that many Christians do(by the Islamic deffinition of worship anyway), thus the verse poses a valid question.

Edited by Amir۞Ramadhaan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This "Mary" as part of a trinity has me confused. I never heard of it before. I know every Roman Catholic church has an image of her, but...Oh yeah, Catholics, and Protestants (those that protested the tradition of religion).

Maybe Maimonides can shed some light, but the Scriptures say; "And God said: Let us make man in our own image" Who was he talking to?

Was he talking to himself as a schitzo? I think not.

There is more to God than any of us know, and it includes God being whatever, in whatever form he so chooses. I am afraid in each post we all somehow limit the ability of God by saying He is this, not that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(bismillah)

Just because the New Testament contains no implicit command to worship Mary, it doesn't change the fact that many Christians do(by the Islamic deffinition of worship anyway), thus the verse poses a valid question.

According to a christian wiew, Jesus on dudgement day would answer Allahs question: "No, I did not command my followers to worship Mary, but I commanded them to worship God-Son-Spirit (the word trinity is not used in the Bible). And billions of Christians will testify this is what Jesus did. Not all christians believe saints exist, but all christians are "baptised in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit", like Jesus commanded us to.

Why will Allah not mention the Spirit on judgement day?

And according to Islamic deffinition, Christians do not worship the Spirit?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
According to a christian wiew, Jesus on dudgement day would answer Allahs question: "No, I did not command my followers to worship Mary, but I commanded them to worship God-Son-Spirit (the word trinity is not used in the Bible). And billions of Christians will testify this is what Jesus did. Not all christians believe saints exist, but all christians are "baptised in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit", like Jesus commanded us to.

Why will Allah not mention the Spirit on judgement day?

And according to Islamic deffinition, Christians do not worship the Spirit?

he didnt mention the spirit because the spirit isnt a being like jesus that can be questioned!all prophets will be brought to account in islam even though they have bing protected against sin.its called the "spirit OF GOD".just like the love of God and other things that emanated from Him.i would like to take this opportunity once more to stress the diffrence between jesus and the holy spirit and the word of God.these are tools that God made to create and guide.jesus like all other creatures are created by God with these tools.just the way jesus is the word of God and God gave him life through his spirit he did that to other beings too.

and billions of christians will testify?did they live back then?the only ones that can testify are those who lived with jesus and the angels.anyway jesus never did.for example muslims must testify that the Creator is one and muhammad (pbuh) is his messenger.but that doesnt put our prophet in the divine frame.so you can baptize in whatever name but that only shows millat or path and not a justification for worship.

and just some few days ago i went to a catholic church with a friend.he said i should excuse him.he went in front of a statue (in the church's premises) "of mary" kneeled down and bow down his head worshipping.what do you called that?they may say shes a saint but i believe what they do to mary ,they do to no other saint.

Hello Mehdi Soldier

I understand your logic. Worshipping Jesus or his Mother as a God means breaking the first command. But Christian dogma is not to worship Mary ("the mother of God"), only Jesus ("God"). Christian dogma (and the Bible canon that it is founded upon)), was established several hundred years before the birth of Muhammad. I didn’t say I believe this dogma is the truth, only that it is dogma. Like I must accept that it is Muslim dogma that the Quran has no faults, even thou, as you can see, I don’t believe this is true. No matter how hard you try, you can’t change Christian dogma (or the Bible canon), and I don’t think the Pope will do, so you really are looking for something that is not Christian. I know you don’t like this, because it means that Muhammad had a wrong understanding of Christian teaching. Which again means that the Quran does contain faults. I can’t help that either. Sorry.

the way i accept the quran's authenticity can be observable and provable,its all depends on whether you have the good evidence to do that or not to.but its very unlike the trinity which you yourself says its confusing.and its a dogma that came after or atleast was formulized after jesus.and please dont drift us aprt again into discussin another topic (the quran) which we've done in another thread.

i have nothing more to say since you have porved or said all that i would have.

so i will conclude on this note with two sayings"

1.obedience without understanding is blindness

2.change is a characteristic of a living and progressing being.only the fool and the dead cant change.the fool because he WILL not and the dead because he CAN not!

This "Mary" as part of a trinity has me confused. I never heard of it before. I know every Roman Catholic church has an image of her, but...Oh yeah, Catholics, and Protestants (those that protested the tradition of religion).

Maybe Maimonides can shed some light, but the Scriptures say; "And God said: Let us make man in our own image" Who was he talking to?

Was he talking to himself as a schitzo? I think not.

There is more to God than any of us know, and it includes God being whatever, in whatever form he so chooses. I am afraid in each post we all somehow limit the ability of God by saying He is this, not that.

oh stop !that sound hypocrisy!no one said mary is part of any trinity".onlu "sulaima" is misinterpreting and explanin quranic verses the way she likes.havent you read the posts?

Edited by mehdi soldier

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Concerning Mary,

I understand that Roman Catholics do not use the word 'worship' in relationship to Mary but they use the word 'veneration', which means to revere or admire.

Poman Catholics believe in God but they have a system where they elevate Saints to special positions. This may be like the Imams in Islam.

Maybe someone could explain the difference or similarity so we will all be enlightened.

To claim a Patron Saint is to have someone on your side when you approach God. Since Mary was the most prominent and most revered woman in the NT, she is a Saint, close to God, but also the Mother of Jesus.

Someone explained it this way: We are to pray to God through Jesus. Someone praying who would not be sure that their prayer would be heard would pray to (or through) Mary to Jesus because He would naturally listen to His Mother.

And who wouldn't want Mother Theresa as their Patron Saint in this generation?

I don't believe there has ever been a thought among Roman Catholics that Mary or the saints were elevated above a go-between position.

Does someone want to explain further?

As for Evangelicals we believe what the NT says, that we have one Mediator (an Advocate) between God and men, the Man, Christ Jesus.

We are instructed simply to pray to God in Jesus' name.

Medhi Soldier,

It is okay if you don't want to believe what the Gospel teaches even though Muhammad did.

He said the Gospel was the Truth and the Criterion of right and wrong, Surah 3:2-4. Muhammad said Jesus was of the truth and that His was a Straight Path.

Jesus said I will give you another Comforter (Helper) that He may abide with you (and with believers) forever, even the 'Spirit of Truth' who is the 'Holy Spirit'. 'He', the Holy Spirit is referred to in the masculine gender 'He'.

A verse like this one in Surah 16:102 gives us to understand that there was knowledge of the Holy Spirit to those who were perceptive,

'Say: The Holy Spirit hath revealed it from thy Lord with truth that it may confirm the faith of those who believe, and as guidance and good tidings for those who have surrendered'.

(This is a truth from the Gospel because when a person surrenders their life to God, the Holy Spirit reveals Himself to them with an assurance of the truth of God's word to confirm their faith).

You can disbelieve if you want, but you can't take the Holy Spirit away from us who enjoy His presence in our lives each day. We believe what the NT teaches and receive the blessing. If you would read it with some understanding of what it teaches (even though you don't want it for yourself) you would see then why we believe it.

Placid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1)and billions of christians will testify?did they live back then?the only ones that can testify are those who lived with jesus and the angels.anyway jesus never did.for example muslims must testify that the Creator is one and muhammad (pbuh) is his messenger.but that doesnt put our prophet in the divine frame.so you can baptize in whatever name but that only shows millat or path and not a justification for worship.

2)and just some few days ago i went to a catholic church with a friend.he said i should excuse him.he went in front of a statue (in the church's premises) "of mary" kneeled down and bow down his head worshipping.what do you called that?they may say shes a saint but i believe what they do to mary ,they do to no other saint.

1)Billions of Christians testify their faith, just like billions of Muslims wil testify their faith, whether they lived when Jesus or Muhammad was still alive or not.

2) You could have asked him if he was worshipping Mary! Maybe Muhammad had seen or heard of the same scene, interpreted the way you do. This is my guess, I find it very unlikely that Sura 5:116 is speaking about anything but the belief of the Christian Church.

This site is full of people stressing contradictions in the Bible. It is also easy to find lists of contradictions of the Quran online. It is harder for Mulims than for Christians to accept these contradictions, and it makes an open discussion concerning many subjects difficult and limited, when discussing with Muslims.

Finally I will show a copy of the the christian Creed, formed by the church in 325. Still valid and read in protestant, catholic and orthodox churches

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty

Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible:

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,

the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds;

God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God;

begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father,

by Whom all things were made:

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven,

and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man:

And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried:

And the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures:

And ascended into Heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father:

And he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead:

Whose Kingdom will have no end:

And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life,

Who proceedeth from the Father

Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified,

Who spake by the Prophets.

And I believe in One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church,

I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins.

And I look for the Resurrection of the Dead:

And the Life of the world to come. Amen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It is harder for Mulims than for Christians to accept these contradictions, and it makes an open discussion concerning many subjects difficult and limited, when discussing with Muslims.

(salam)

A contradiction is where a statement conflicts with either another, previously made statement or another known fact.

Here is a contradiction:

My first name is John....My first name is Robert.

In this case, both statement cannot be true (assuming the person has only one first name).

Here is another contradiction:

Who was the paternal grandfather of Prophet Jesus (a.s.)? A person can only have a single paternal grandfather, who is the father of his father.

Matthew says that the paternal grandfather of Jesus (a.s.) is Jacob.

Luke says that the paternal grandfather of Jesus (a.s.) is Heli.

These two statements CONTRADICT eachother, thus, cannot both be correct. So either one or both of these statments MUST be WRONG. That is a contradiction.

You claim that Surah 5:116 contradicts the current, mainstream Christian beliefs, therefore it is a contradiction. That is incorrect unless we assume two things.

1.) What Christians believe today regarding Mary is the same as what the Christians who lived in Arabia in 600 A.D. believed.

2.) All Christians who lived in Arabia in 600 A.D. had IDENTIFCAL beliefs and were in FULL AGREEMENT that Mary was not divine.

3.) No group of Christians until the day of judgement WILL EVER believe that Mary is a divine being.

I have provided proof in the link I previously gave that MANY, MANY Christians throughout history, including Catholics today, believe that Mary is "the Mother of humanity" and is an intercessor between them and God. If you pray to someone, that is called worship....Ever heard of the rosary...who is the rosary prayer directed to?

Also, even if you claim that Catholics today do not worship Mary, how can you make the statement that no Christians in the future will ever worship Mary? Once again, the conversation will take place IN THE FUTURE (i.e., on the Day of Judgement).

To say that this Surah does not accurately describe the beliefs of MOST PRESENT DAY CHRISTIANS may be accurate. To say that it is a contradiction is not accurate no matter what definition of contradiction is used.

Edited by Ali Zaki

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Al Zaki

I agree with your definition on contradiction. But, I claim that Surah 5:116 contradicts the Christian belief, no more. Have I given the impression that this therefore means there is a contradiction in the Quran, I have expressed myself unclear. (and the word to be used would have been “error”, not “contradiction”) I have said there is an alternative, which I find extremely unlikely, but that I can’t rule out. Because of this possibility it is not an error, but it is so close, that the subject becomes very sensitive to a Muslim in a discussion. (Probably you are referring to my mentioning of the Quran contradiction lists on the net. I admit this could confuse.)

Your 3 assumptions have got one common fault. If you believe Mary to be a goddess to worship, you are not Christian. Not before, now or in time to come. Would you consider a “muslim” that worships Muhammad as a God, a Muslim? The Christian creed is very clear about whom to worship.

It is easy to mix praying with worship, and I have got a strong feeling this is exactly what Muhammad did. If he had not a clear picture of the trinity dogma, this would confuse him even more. Catholics will never agree they worship Mary or any other Saint. If you ask, Catholics say they are begging a Saint to deliver their prayers to God (for hopefully better result). Protestants instead asks a living friend to pray for them, because protestant believe “the Saints” are still sleeping in their graves. It is a common belief that if many persons pray to God in a specific matter, it has a better effect. As a former Lutheran I am sure you are familiar with this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam)

A very reasonable response, Sulaima.

I agree that Catholics today cannot be understood to believe that Mary is divine. This, however, has not always been the case historically as any honest CATHOLIC PRIEST will admit (but maybe only in private). On need only look at Byzantine religious art from the 10th to 14th century to understand this.

I will not continue to prove this case, and if one wants to assert that Mary has never been given a divine status by SOME Catholics in the past then I will drop the subject.

B.T.W., if you feel that any of these website which supposedly have discovered factual errors or contradictions in Quran have in fact done what they claim, then please post them and we will (inshahAllah) explore these assertions together. I agree that there are many, many website which claim this, and I do not have the time nor energy to examine each and every one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Medhi Soldier,

It is okay if you don't want to believe what the Gospel teaches even though Muhammad did.

He said the Gospel was the Truth and the Criterion of right and wrong, Surah 3:2-4. Muhammad said Jesus was of the truth and that His was a Straight Path.

Jesus said I will give you another Comforter (Helper) that He may abide with you (and with believers) forever, even the 'Spirit of Truth' who is the 'Holy Spirit'. 'He', the Holy Spirit is referred to in the masculine gender 'He'.

A verse like this one in Surah 16:102 gives us to understand that there was knowledge of the Holy Spirit to those who were perceptive,

'Say: The Holy Spirit hath revealed it from thy Lord with truth that it may confirm the faith of those who believe, and as guidance and good tidings for those who have surrendered'.

(This is a truth from the Gospel because when a person surrenders their life to God, the Holy Spirit reveals Himself to them with an assurance of the truth of God's word to confirm their faith).

You can disbelieve if you want, but you can't take the Holy Spirit away from us who enjoy His presence in our lives each day. We believe what the NT teaches and receive the blessing. If you would read it with some understanding of what it teaches (even though you don't want it for yourself) you would see then why we believe it.

Placid

first my name is "Mehdi Soldier" not "Medhi Soldier".

it is very annoying the way you talk and i consider that an insult.how will i not believe what my prophet (pbuh) believed?

i do believe in the message given to jesus and moses (as) .but i dont believe in the message narrated about jesus.first because it could be that this message is not everything that was given to jesus.because not everything exactly was recorded.second the bible is full of contradictions.and third because the gospel the quran mentions isnt the same that you are using.becasue its simple.a book that contains the slightest contradiction is not authentic.

and i didnt ask for your preachin.although what you say is sometimes correct its unfortunate that you use it to prove the wrong things or ideas.i dont deny the holy spirit neither do i accept it like the christian do and thats why am called a muslim.is that clear enough?

i believe that the holy spirit is used by God to create and guide.its neither a being nor a deity.its a spirit that emanated from God.God made it.had it not being for God's presence it wouldnt have being.

and yes i do enjoy the presence of the holy spirit too.but thats not to say i will deitify it or make it 1 of the 3 in 1 or start advertizin my experiences which is personal.mischivious people can use it to deceive others like christians do.you see a pastor on tv waving his hand and people falling like leaves.is that what the holy spirit is meant to be?the pastor seem to be a "supplier" of the holy spirit!and many have being caught for doing things that are not signs of men who have the holy spirit.

i remember a story thats popular where i live.there was a pastor who was having an intercourse with a married woman in the room of her husband.it happened that the husband came at teh right time home.so he found the pastor and his wife together although they were not in a bad position,so the husband didnt know much of what was goin on.the pastor started to shout "i command you,in the name of jesus"!pretending he is praying for her.

and yes those who boost of the holy spirit as if they are angels must be the exemplary humans in terms of morals and ethics.but thats not the case with most christians who claim the holy spirit.so thats why the holy spirit experience is a personal thing which you should keep to yourself.its not a christian property or a specialty to boost or use as an advantage over others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...and yes those who boost of the holy spirit as if they are angels must be the exemplary humans in terms of morals and ethics.but thats not the case with most christians who claim the holy spirit.so thats why the holy spirit experience is a personal thing which you should keep to yourself.its not a christian property or a specialty to boost or use as an advantage over others.

(salam) and Peace,

This is a very good point! Muslims and Christians share a belief in the "Holy Spirit" (Ruh al Qudoos) which is mentioned in both the Quran and the Bible in similar (if not identical) ways. However, if a Muslim has had a transcendental experience, he does NOT immediately credit the Holy Spirit for it (because, in reality, if it is genuine then Allah (s.w.a.) is responsible in any case) and certainly does not use this experience to convince others of anything, especailly those outside his faith.

I admit that I find it perplexing that most Christians actually believe that a claim that they are "filled with the Spirit" or try to demonstrate this somehow reinforces or strengthens their arguments, especially when discussing the matter with non-Christians. Of course, if a person can somehow "prove" that they are either filled with spirit ALL THE TIME (i.e., they are massom, perfected) or that they can be filled with "The Spirit" AT WILL (and perform miracles, supernatural feats, etc.) then that, IF PROVEN, would strenghten their claims. This, however, is not how "The Spirit" is presented.

Also, many have claimed that they have some kind of special power over or ability to benefit at will from "The Spirit", and yet, have latter been exposed as liars, criminals and frauds.

So I think all people of deep faith feel at times they are guided, strengthened or protected by God in a special, visceral and immediate way. These experiece, however, are generally best kept to oneself or shared with close friends who share your faith rather then being used to prove something.

Edited by Ali Zaki

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1)Billions of Christians testify their faith, just like billions of Muslims wil testify their faith, whether they lived when Jesus or Muhammad was still alive or not.

2) You could have asked him if he was worshipping Mary! Maybe Muhammad had seen or heard of the same scene, interpreted the way you do. This is my guess, I find it very unlikely that Sura 5:116 is speaking about anything but the belief of the Christian Church.

This site is full of people stressing contradictions in the Bible. It is also easy to find lists of contradictions of the Quran online. It is harder for Mulims than for Christians to accept these contradictions, and it makes an open discussion concerning many subjects difficult and limited, when discussing with Muslims.

Finally I will show a copy of the the christian Creed, formed by the church in 325. Still valid and read in protestant, catholic and orthodox churches

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty

Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible:

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,

the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds;

God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God;

begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father,

by Whom all things were made:

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven,

and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man:

And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried:

And the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures:

And ascended into Heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father:

And he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead:

Whose Kingdom will have no end:

And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life,

Who proceedeth from the Father

Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified,

Who spake by the Prophets.

And I believe in One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church,

I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins.

And I look for the Resurrection of the Dead:

And the Life of the world to come. Amen.

you testify of what you worship not what has being preached by someone who is not around today.by that i mean that we believe what our prophet taught.and you can believe what jesus taught.but you arent a witness then to testify.base on your previous post you are exaggerating to prove that because many christians believe in the trinity so jesus believes in it.infact there are unitarian christians!

like bro. zaki said,there are 3 possibilities and to those i would like to add another one.that is the definitons of a deity,worship and veneration.in islam there are certain acts which can only be done for God and no one else deserve that.and as muslims we judge by islamic standards because they are superior to yours.if you dont accept ,open a new thread lets compare the christian and muslim ideas and concepts of worship and deity .then we can see whether from judgement,we cant conclude that there are christians who implicity (atleast) deitify mary (as) .

base on the "christian creed" you presented,i would like you to understand that this is one that you may agree with the catholics.and besides there are other things which you disagree with them.a catholic has told e that orthodox have no respect for mary by catholic standard and a protestant has declared catholics idol worshippers.so ther are lots of differences between the christian denominations.and you havent spoken about the schism athanasius ,the father of the "trinity",brought when he formalized the "trinity" concept.what about the arians,do they believe in "trinity"?no.yet they are christians.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(salam)

A very reasonable response, Sulaima.

I agree that Catholics today cannot be understood to believe that Mary is divine. This, however, has not always been the case historically as any honest CATHOLIC PRIEST will admit (but maybe only in private). On need only look at Byzantine religious art from the 10th to 14th century to understand this.

I will not continue to prove this case, and if one wants to assert that Mary has never been given a divine status by SOME Catholics in the past then I will drop the subject.

B.T.W., if you feel that any of these website which supposedly have discovered factual errors or contradictions in Quran have in fact done what they claim, then please post them and we will (inshahAllah) explore these assertions together. I agree that there are many, many website which claim this, and I do not have the time nor energy to examine each and every one.

Is "Catholic heretics" an interresting subject for this discussion? Would it make a difference if you discovered some "Muslim heretics"? Have heretics not always been around? If they were successful they started a new religion, if not they were forgotten. But I'll let you know if I find something (larger) of interest.

Even thou my knowledge of the Quran is limited, I guess I could find an "error" worth discussing. Which forum shall I publish it in, if I do?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

×