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Criticizing Zanjeer Matam


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#1 Bush_supporter

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 04:13 PM

For all the "shias" who are against zanjeer, how come no marja gone right out and denounced or forbid it?

Do not stop a momin from doing it. Zanjeer is the reason why shia'ism is still alive.

#2 Kirmani

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 04:40 PM

Actually I've heard Ayatollah Khomeini declared that it was wrong and it's TECHNICALLY banned in Iran (but I think ppl still do it).

#3 Dhulfiqar

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 04:44 PM

How many people that call themselves Shi'as are truly Shi'as?

Wa Salaam,
Dhulfiqar

#4 kadhim

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 04:47 PM

For all the "shias" who are against zanjeer, how come no marja gone right out and denounced or forbid it?


A number of SHIA marja have come right out and denouced and/or forbidden it.

Do not stop a momin from doing it. Zanjeer is the reason why shia'ism is still alive.


THE reason?! It may historically be A contributing factor to the preservation of Shia beliefs, this is granted.

But it, along with the la'anats that many make on certain figures the majority of the Muslim thinks were saints, is THE reason why today Shia'ism's growth is less than it should be.

Please tell me, in this age of global telecommunications and the ability of Shias to speak freely in many countries, why this ritual is still necessary to preserve and grow Shia' Islam. Because I don't see it. If you want to whack yourself with God knows what instruments on torture, that is up to you, as long as you do it behind locked doors with the blinds drawn so no television cameras can see you and claim that you represent me. Is it necessary to preserve a ritual simply because it was useful in the past in a later time when it has outlived such usefulness? A good question for you to address.

Edited by kadhim, 15 March 2006 - 04:47 PM.


#5 student of zahraa

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 04:59 PM

Salams..
to each thier own way, but i personally think it loses its purpose when done at the wrong time and place, ya3ni such as western countries in these tensed years with muslims ... zanjeer promotes negative da3wa and promotion of islam, and allows wahabees and thier alikes to have a chance to put us down .. so why give it to them? when we can please our Imam in better actions

#6 Dhulfiqar

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 05:13 PM

Salams..
to each thier own way, but i personally think it loses its purpose when done at the wrong time and place, ya3ni such as western countries in these tensed years with muslims ... zanjeer promotes negative da3wa and promotion of islam, and allows wahabees and thier alikes to have a chance to put us down .. so why give it to them? when we can please our Imam in better actions


If we're going to solely change our traditions and rituals based on what Wahaabis think, well, I can think of a lot more things we'll need to change to appease the nasibis.

Wa Salaam,
Dhulfiqar

#7 Ansar Al Welayat

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 09:58 PM

Imam Khomeini and Imam Khamenei have said that Zanjeer and Ghama is Haram.

Btw, Quran and AhlulBayt are the reasons that Islam is alive. Grow up

#8 Nohakhwanstl786

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 10:15 PM

Actually I've heard Ayatollah Khomeini declared that it was wrong and it's TECHNICALLY banned in Iran (but I think ppl still do it).


(bismillah)

(salam)

Uhh... Ayatullah Khommeini said that there is nothing wrong with it but if it goes passed its limit that it can be harmfull to the body... And according to Islam anything that makes you unhealthy or that is not good for you Is " Haraam". So i think that he said to avoid going passed the limits, I dont think anyone could be against it if they are well-educated. I mean zanjeer Matam is done because people want to feel the pain that the Imams did... They cannot
ban zanjeer Matam... LoL.... Thats like banning regular Matam... That would be craziness... I mean get a life.. lol...

(salam)

Ahson

Salams..
to each thier own way, but i personally think it loses its purpose when done at the wrong time and place, ya3ni such as western countries in these tensed years with muslims ... zanjeer promotes negative da3wa and promotion of islam, and allows wahabees and thier alikes to have a chance to put us down .. so why give it to them? when we can please our Imam in better actions



(bismillah)

(salam)

With all due respect to you... I need to tell you something lol... Zanjeer Matam is a tradition... It is thought of as a tradition... and some people want to do it and some dont.... and i think thats fine... Just leave them alone .... Once again that is like telling us not to do regular matam, because thats another way to have wahabis put us down.... lol... Thats just an un-educated answer... lol.. thats why people say think before you talk.. lol... no no no .,... please dont take this seriously... lol.. .I mean no hard feelings or anything ... but i think i have asked enough aalims about this topic...


Best regards,

Ahson

Salams..
to each thier own way, but i personally think it loses its purpose when done at the wrong time and place, ya3ni such as western countries in these tensed years with muslims ... zanjeer promotes negative da3wa and promotion of islam, and allows wahabees and thier alikes to have a chance to put us down .. so why give it to them? when we can please our Imam in better actions




.... plus dont worry abouit wahabis... You need to worry about yourself... Wahbis are goign to put you down on everything.. and there is nothing you can do with it so just face it... i mean thats how life is...


peace,
Ahson

If we're going to solely change our traditions and rituals based on what Wahaabis think, well, I can think of a lot more things we'll need to change to appease the nasibis.

Wa Salaam,
Dhulfiqar



(bismillah)

(salam)

Well-said... I totally agree with you...



Sincerely,
Ahson

Imam Khomeini and Imam Khamenei have said that Zanjeer and Ghama is Haram.

Btw, Quran and AhlulBayt are the reasons that Islam is alive. Grow up



(bismillah)

(salam)


ahahahhaha... buddy no hard feelings bu tthe person who needs to grow up is you... lol.... IMam khomeini khamieni obviously do not have an Indian or pakistani backround... and that is where zanjeer/qama matam started... ok... it was a tradition started in india... that followed over to pakistan... and if you are not pakistani or indian you might not be in favor for it... maybe you are ... it matters .... it is an opinion matter... but my point is that, Even ayatullahs and Aalims are wrong if they say that any kind of matam is haram... now they could say that it is not recomended because of the health problems... that is a different story...


(salam)

Ahson

#9 Ya Aba 3abdillah

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 11:01 PM

(bismillah)
(salam)

Please download this pdf
http://www.shirazi.o.../al-hussain.pdf and read chapter 6 titled "Fatawa on Ashura Ceremonies"

wassalam

#10 fREAk

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 12:06 AM

If we're going to solely change our traditions and rituals based on what Wahaabis think, well, I can think of a lot more things we'll need to change to appease the nasibis.

Wa Salaam,
Dhulfiqar


, and allows wahabees and thier alikes to have a chance to put us down .. so why give it to them? when we can please our Imam in better actions


Edited by fREAk, 16 March 2006 - 12:07 AM.


#11 Ali14

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 01:26 AM

Really its a shame how we are criticizing on Matam Astaghfirulaah..
Even Olama has been quite on this topic saying that this is the matter of Janabe Syeda(s.a) we can't say a single word on this, Actually this criticizing Poison came thru Wahabees.

#12 shia_from_texas

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 05:41 AM

For all the "shias" who are against zanjeer, how come no marja gone right out and denounced or forbid it?

Do not stop a momin from doing it. Zanjeer is the reason why shia'ism is still alive.


don't you dare bring your culture into islam. The prophet of islam never advocated puting a knife in your back.

They are useing what your doing to destroy islam. when people see images of muslims what do you think they see besides a bomb be atached to them. a knife stuCK in some retards back

WHAT DOES THIS REALLY DO FOR ISLAM YOU EMOSHENALY DRIVEN DUMB #%^!!!

http://www.allaahuak...bei04d_full.jpg

USE YOUR BRAIN FOR THINKING BESIDES STABING YOURSELF!

ZANJIR HAS ONLY HARMED THE IDEA OF ISLAM IN THE MINDS OF NOM MUSLIMS WHO WILL MOST LIKELY HATE ISLAM RATHER THAN TO EMBRACE IT.

IF I EVER SAW WHAT YOU RETARDS ARE DOING I MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE REJECTED ISLAM BECOUSE OF WHAT YOU DO.

DO YOU WANT TO DRIVE PEOPLE AWAY FROM ISLAM OR BRING THEM TO IT?!

THAT BRAIN INYOUR HEAD IS USED FOR MORE THAN JUST STABING YOURSELF. ITS FOR THINKING.

WHAT MORE NEEDS TO BE SAID ABOUT MUTALATING YOURSELF???

YOUR CULTURE IS NOT ISLAM. ISLAM IS ISLAM (PURE)

----------

THIS IS NOW TO THE MODS AND ADMINS.

I AM SORRY IF YOU THINK I AM BEING PROFANE

BUT

WE HAVE GOT TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUE AND NOT JUST BAN WHO EVER SAYS ANYTHING BAD ABOUT IT.

TO IGNORE IT IS TO SUPPORT IT!

Edited by shia_from_texas, 16 March 2006 - 05:44 AM.


#13 Bush_supporter

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 08:01 AM

^^^^ good job taking a wahabi site as your reference. they don't want shia'ism, let alone zanjeer. you people do noit know the importance of zanjeer, and why matamdars do it all around the world.

#14 UndercoverBrother

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 09:28 AM

They are useing what your doing to destroy islam. when people see images of muslims what do you think they see besides a bomb be atached to them. a knife stuCK in some retards back


So why dont we leave all of our practises which make us Muslim just to please the kufaar or the wahabbi then.

If we stick together and tell the kaafir to attack the beleifs of Islam instead of attacking practises which stem from the belief we will be better of.

We have different criteria than the kuffar so why should we try to justify an Islamic action just to please them. To justify Islamic practises using kuffar criteria is impossible, so why kid yourself and worry what about what the kuffar think.

don't you dare bring your culture into islam.


What Culture ?????????????????????????????????????

Is there a specific area of the world where matam e zanjeer takes place e.g. (Indo-Pak) or is it present amognst all shia Cultures around the world. It does not stem from one specific culture because it is from Islam. Matam e zanjeer is not cultural, if it was you would only see it in certain parts of the world.

The prophet of islam never advocated puting a knife in your back.


If the prophet PBUH allowed, did himself or stayed quite over something than it is allowed. So when the Prophet PBUH lost teeth during a battle and one of the Sahaba heard this and started pulling out his own teeth because of the love he had. So here when the Prophet PBUH stayed quite over this it means that this type of ibadat is allowed in Islam.

If a kaafir today saw someone pulling out his teeth for the love of the Prophet PBUH, then do you think the kaafir would understand this. If you have beliefs that will suite the kaafir and please them soon you will find that they will never properly accept you and you will have to leave your Islam.

#15 Jurisprudence_Aalim

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 10:30 AM

(salam)

Bibi Zaynab (as) practiced Qama e Zani when imam hussein (as)'s head was paraded in front of the people of kufa, she hit her head against a wooden bar, which caused bleeding from her forehead, of course if anyone of you guys could imagine youre brother or youre sisters head being paraded in front of youre enemies, and at the same time people booing and jeering in the process.

One cannot even imagine such grief let alone go through it, but of course bibi zaynab (as) was named personally by the prophet (saw), she was known as the mother of sufferings, and also she was the daughter of the man (as) born in the kaaba, as well as that she was the daughter of the leader of the women of paradise, so therefore she was infallible, and free from any sin, as imam sajjad (as) described her as being "learned without being taught", as well as that the skies rained blood on the day of ashura in britain, please refer to the anglo saxons chronicles, by G.N GARMONSWAY, who has nothing to do with shiaism, and this christian is admitting it rained blood in britain on the day of ashura, since he was recording the weather.

Not only that, but there are many other references in the book nafsahul mahmoom, by Sheikh Abbas Qummi which suggest it rained blood on ashura, and the stars could be seen in broad daylight due to a full eclipse taking place, so the first one to order blood to flow was Allah........You can also refer to the famous speech of bibi zaynab (as) in the court of yazeed........

#16 Azadhar

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 12:16 PM

This practice was started by BIBI ZAINAB (A.S.) and the FOURTH IMAM (A.S.) was present at the time. Since he clearly had no objection then BY WHAT RIGHT do human beings be they khomeini or khamenei feel they can even discuss it?

ZANJEER ZANI is precisely the essence of this faith.

#17 Hasnain

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 01:04 PM

^ How many people lived by the teachings of the Holy Prophet (saww) after his demise?

#18 kadhim

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 01:05 PM

This practice was started by BIBI ZAINAB (A.S.) and the FOURTH IMAM (A.S.) was present at the time. Since he clearly had no objection then BY WHAT RIGHT do human beings be they khomeini or khamenei feel they can even discuss it?

ZANJEER ZANI is precisely the essence of this faith.


Hey guys, I heard that once, after the events of Kerbala, the young Imam Muhammad al-Baqr, who was present, feel down once and skinned his knee. So come on everybody, every year as a ritual, let's fall on our kness on broken glass.
I mean, come on, was that supposed to be an argument? Zainab lost control in a SPONTANEOUS moment of grief and hit her head on a wooden bar, so you want to slash yourself each year with swords as a PRE-PLANNED ritual? I mean, for goodness' sake, if you really want to follow the """"""tradition"""""" of Zainab (as), use a 2"X4" wooden board instead. I mean please...aren't there any purists, anymore?

A question for those who want to base a tradition on this rather tenuous basis:
1) Is Hussayn's head being physically paraded before you each year so that you can claim you are having a spontaneous reaction, as Zainab did?
2) If you think she acted in a conscious, pre-planned way so as to establish a tradition, do you have ANY evidence that she carried on this head-beating as a yearly ritual, as you do?
3) Why, if this tradition is firmly based on the actions of Zainab (as), did it take 1000 years for this to appear as a widespread tradition.

I would be interested to see the answers to these 3 questions, which, in my experience, "zinjaholics" usually tend to avoid answering.

#19 Hasnain

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 01:07 PM

^ I tried dialogue with you. But it won't work. What's it to you if someone wants to shed blood to commemorate the martyrdom of Imam Hussain (as)?

#20 kadhim

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 01:10 PM

^ I tried dialogue with you. But it won't work. What's it to you if someone wants to shed blood to commemorate the martyrdom of Imam Hussain (as)?


Dialogue, eh? If you people are willing to ALWAYS do it behind closed, locked doors with the blinds drawn, away from any television camera which will record it and broadcast it and claim that you represent me, then I have no problem. Slash your head, amputate your limbs, immolate yourselves, go nuts--whatever floats your boat.

But as long as you insist on doing this in public, I will oppose you.

#21 NoorFatima

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 01:11 PM

(bismillah)

I will ask everyone to remain calm; practicing Ta’ziya or Matam isn’t exactly a guarantee into the never ending bliss of Paradise; a person firstly must master prayer, fasting, Zakat, TO demand good and forbid evil, to cling to Allah’s Representatives (Ahlul Albayte) and to disassociate from their enemies.

Once a person Masters all of the Ten Branches of faith; then they can commit themselves to Matam.

I also agree with Brother Kadhim:

If you want to whack yourself with God knows what instruments on torture, that is up to you, as long as you do it behind locked doors with the blinds drawn so no television cameras can see you and claim that you represent me.


In our Hussainya; the usage of cameras is prohibited when men take off their shirts or when Qama is being practiced.

P.S.

This thread will be monitored from now on; please don't break the rules everyone. Arbaeen is going to be on Sunday; pray a lot and read the Holy Qur'an. Then Listen to the tragedy of Karbala again; let your eyes weep and your heart bleed for the Holy Family of the Prophet.

(salam)

#22 Hasnain

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 01:17 PM

Dialogue, eh? If you people are willing to ALWAYS do it behind closed, locked doors with the blinds drawn, away from any television camera which will record it and broadcast it and claim that you represent me, then I have no problem. Slash your head, amputate your limbs, immolate yourselves, go nuts--whatever floats your boat.

But as long as you insist on doing this in public, I will oppose you.

Keep dreaming, like Muawia and Yazeed did. You'll meet the same fate.

#23 kadhim

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 01:20 PM

So why dont we leave all of our practises which make us Muslim just to please the kufaar or the wahabbi then.


This is a distraction. No one can make any real argument against the real practices of Islam. That's the beauty of genuine Islamic practices -- they have this universal nature about them that no reasonable person can argue with.

1. Belief in one God
2. Regular prayer
3. Fasting
4. Pilgrimmage to sacred locations
5. Giving charity to help the poor, the sick, the helpless, and to advance education and social programs
6. Calling towards the good and calling away from the evil
7. Striving to make the world a better, more just way using the means that are open to you

These are the key Islamic practices, and no reasonable, religious person is going to have a problem with these because they are universal to all faiths. If you believe in God and are a moral person, you won't take offense to these. You might disagree with the particular Islamic implementation, but you will agree with the concepts and respect the difference.

But many many sane, reasonable, religious, pious, sincere believers in God get seriously put out and disgusted by hard-core matam. That is the difference. And that is by far the most telling evidence that hard-core matam with chains and swords does not have a basis that comes from Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

#24 Dhulfiqar

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 01:22 PM

I know of one Muslim convert who converted after seeing Matam.

#25 kadhim

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 01:22 PM

Keep dreaming, like Muawia and Yazeed did. You'll meet the same fate.


How truly pathetic that you compare opposition to an innovated tribal practice to the actions of Muawiyya and Yazeed (laa'natullahi a'layhim). May God help you.




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