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Nizari Khoja Ismaili


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#1 Changed

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 05:36 AM

Firstly, Shia Imami Ismaili Muslim, I need you here:

Times of India ( Saturday, March 11, 2006)

[quote name='http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1445653' date='curpg-2.cms']Another such intriguing community in Gujarat are Nizari Ismaili Shias, who believe that Islam is the fulfilment of Hinduism and whose leading missionaries had both Hindu and Muslim names and dual identities.
In addition to the Qur'an, Gujarati Ismailis, also known as Satpanthis or 'followers of the true path', have a holy book, the Das Avatar.

There the nine incarnations of Vishnu are praised and Imam Ali is presented as the final or Nikalanki avatar of Vishnu.[/quote]

Apart from Qur'an, actually Ismailis of this branch don't even read Qur'an as they say they aren't supposed to, since only their imam can interpret it in accordance with time. They read Ginans ( songs/ formerly known as Das Avatar) as holy book, I searched few and found this was true:

Ismailis believe in incarnation of God just like Hindus do, they believe in all nine avatars of Vishnu ( second god of Hindu trinity) ie: Krishna, Rama and also in Buddh as incarnation of god on earth.

Surprised to see, they see Maula Ali (as) as the tenth incarnation of Hindu god Vishnu, I did a little search about whether this is universal Nizari belief or else, I found that Arab and Persian Nizaris don't hold this belief but all other Nizaris: Indian, African, Pakistani etc believe in this, remeber that Nizari Imam is of Indian origin. Such works were once asked to be deleted by former branch of Nizari but their imam forbid the edition, so the ginans and thus the belief retain this idea of divine incarnation of Hindu god Vishnu among Nizaris.

[quote name='http://www.mostmerciful.com/book-6.htm']In 1945, under the chairmanship of the late Aga Khan, a conference of Agakhani missionaries was held in Dar-es-Salaam. Aga Khan strongly criticized those who wanted him to eliminate the names of Hindu manifestations (Avatars) and the phrase "'Ali sahi (truly) Allah" from the Ismaili Du'a.

Aga Khan explained to his missionaries that such terms and phrases have symbolic significance and, as such, should not be tampered with. Diamond Rattansi has given details of this Mission Conference in his thesis for the M.A. degree at McGill University. He records that as a result of the above decision there appears to have been sporadic manifestation of some opposition to the Aga Khan from the Ismaili splinter groups and the Sunni Muslims.[/quote]

Here are quotations of the so called holy Ginans of Nizari Ismalis:

Ginan: Budh Avatar:
1. The Ninth Divine Manifestation was Budh
He appeared in the guise of a Moghol........................................
...................................
................
453. Thus spake Gur Sohodev
There is no end to the Manifestation of the Divine Essence
454. Listen, faithful, said Gur Sohodev
Again, I repeat to you The Essence
455. The Tenth Manifestation was taken by The Forgiver
The Creator took the Naklanki ( pure) Manifestation
456. The pre-Eternal Vishnu is The Lord Ali
Gur Brahma is equivalent to Prophet Muhammad

457. The Kaljug came with its Atha Veda ( The last Hindu Veda, even Qur'an is seen as the one)
Nobody understood its meaning
458. Ishwar ( God) was called Adam
According to the Vedas, I explain to you the place
459. In Jampudip ( India), the region of Bharat,
The town of Duarka ( town in Gujarat where Hindu god Krishna lived)

Edited by Mazher's, 11 March 2006 - 05:53 AM.


#2 shia imami ismaili muslim

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 05:08 AM

[quote name='Mazher's' date='Mar 11 2006, 05:34 AM' post='1042158']
Firstly, Shia Imami Ismaili Muslim, I need you here:

mY SHIA OR WAHABI BROTHER,i THANK YOU FOR THE CORDIAL INVITATION.

Re:The article from the Times of India:

This would have been far better if you had preserved the overall spirit of the article instead of getting fixed on single word where it is referring to Nizaari Ismailis.But.if you have read the article,you might have noticed that this is also referring to the shias who are LIKE hindus but they also observe the Muharram mourning.Do you think they are iSmailis as well?Mind you,ISMAILIS don't observe muharram mourning.

For the interest of the readers I would like to forward the full article here .

EDITORIAL:Shared traditions of Gujarat
[/u]

An intriguing aspect of Gujarati society is the significant number of religious traditions and sacred spaces which bring Hindus, Dalits and Muslims in common worship and ritual participation.

Thus, Muslim groups in Kutch known as the Gupti Momins of Bhavnagar, who regularly pray at local temples and appear outwardly as Hindus, are actually Muslims keeping their faith 'gupt' or secret.

Hindu Khatri weavers participate in Muharram mourning rituals for Imam Hussain. Some of these shared religious traditions and their adherents cannot be classified as Hindu or Muslim but as somewhere in-between, giving rise to liminal community identities that defy logic of Hindus and Muslims being two homogeneous, monolithic and completely separate communities.

This undermines much of Hindutva as well as Islamist discourses. The Pranamis, to which sect Mahatma Gandhi's mother belonged, claim to follow 'true' sanatan dharma and 'true' Islam, seeing both as synonymous.

Another such intriguing community in Gujarat are Nizari Ismaili Shias, who believe that Islam is the fulfilment of Hinduism and whose leading missionaries had both Hindu and Muslim names and dual identities.

Just over three years ago, Gujarat witnessed a state-sponsored genocide that culminated in the deaths of some three thousand Muslims and led to a complete breakdown of inter-community relations. These scars have still not healed.

Yet, despite the relentless assault of Hindutva forces in Gujarat, all is not lost. As a recent study by noted anthropologist J J Roy Burman shows that there are still numerous spaces and religious traditions in Gujarat that defy Hindutva and its agenda of hate.

Talk of a complete communal polari-sation in Gujarat, Burman writes, is exaggerated. In fact, it can be dangerous if it leads to despair and capitulation to Hindutva forces.

Even at the peak of genocidal attacks numerous Hindus and Dalits saved Muslim lives. Burman provides interesting details of some of these brave heroes based on personal inter-actions with them.

He also highlights cases of Muslim traders supporting poor Hindus in violence-affected areas and mentions examples of close cultural, religious as well as personal relations and bonding between Dalits, Hindus and Muslims, particularly among the poor.


In addition to the Qur'an, Gujarati Ismailis, also known as Satpanthis or 'followers of the true path', have a holy book, the Das Avatar.

There the nine incarnations of Vishnu are praised and Imam Ali is presented as the final or Nikalanki avatar of Vishnu. However, the ecumenical potential of these shared religious traditions should not be exaggerated, warns Burman.

Today, many of them, under pressure from 'orthodox' Hindu and Muslim forces, are undergoing major transformations. In these cases traditions that once brought together people of different castes and religions are now hotly contested by groups that insist that they must choose to be either Hindu or Muslim.

Thus, most Pranamis now claim to be Hindus and conceal Islamic aspects of their identity and history. The Pirana Satpanthis, followers of Imam Shah, are now divided into rival Muslim and Hindu factions.

Some Satpanthis, egged on by Vishwa Hindu Parishad, have captured the shrine of Imam Shah and declared it to be a Hindu temple. It is now known as Prerana Peeth instead of Pirana, house of the (Muslim) pir.

At the same time, there are nume-rous other traditions and spaces where people of different communities come together in ritual worship.

Most of these are associated with Muslim Sufi saints, whose dargahs or shrines attract large numbers of Hindu and Dalit devotees. One such dargah is that of Khwaja Didar in Surat, a city that has witnessed numerous communal riots in the recent past.

[b]These religious traditions binding Hindus, Muslims and Dalits are vulnerable and, in many places, have proved unable to withstand Hindutva forces. Yet, they need to be recovered and highlighted to combat divisive politics.


Yoginder Sikand(The writer has authored books on inter-faith relations).



From the article,it is obvious that not only ismaili Khojas are having many thing in common with Hindus but other Muslim groups who follow different saints and many shais who mourn on the eve of muharram.So why did you only get fixed on the word Ismailis.

I myself am not a Khoja ismaili.Therefore I do't have any aquaintance with this avatar system.I follow Qura'an,Hadith,Pir who mostl;y wrote in persian such as Nasir Khusraw (qas) ,shams tabriz (qas) and Mowlana Roomi (qas) .


Do Ismailis belonging to the afghan, tajikistan, persian, arab and northen Pakistan follow this hindu mythology that were used to bring hindu khojas over to Ismaili Islam?

Of course not!
So, where is this analogy that Imammate is Hinduism coming from?

This Satpanti bhakti allegory of Imam as an avatar were instructed to make the shia beliefs and imammate related to the hindu beliefs!

What is the definition of avatar?
====================

Hindus consider Christ (as) as just another Avatar entrusted with a divine commission.

An avatar serves as a human messenger of God, like the viceroy of a mighty monarch. When there is a disturbance in some distant province, the king sends his representative to quell it; likewise, when religion wanes in any part of the world, God sends His avatar to guard it.

An avatar is merely - the Imam in hindu tradition.

You see, unlike wahabism, Sunniism and the contemporaray shia 12werism, Ismailism is not RACIST; it is all embracing, fluid and accepts the Universal spirit of all & every beliefs.


The second peace of article which you have selected from Akbarally's website is a sheer ignorance of the actual ismailism and the position of ginan in ismaili faith.If you do't understand the allegory and symbolism in any faith,you cant blame others for your ignorance.

PEACE & LOVE,

#3 Changed

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 07:15 AM

mY SHIA OR WAHABI BROTHER,i THANK YOU FOR THE CORDIAL INVITATION.


I called you Shia Imami Ismaili Muslim since its your ID here on Shiachat, I had no other option.

Mind you,ISMAILIS don't observe muharram mourning.


I know, but it was there in previous Imamate you can check it, since it fluid for you, you people have given up in accordance with time, not my bussiness. But for you kind information only Nizari Ismailis don't observe mourning, rest all other Ismaili branches mourn during Muharram ( ie: Dawoodi Bohra).

So why did you only get fixed on the word Ismailis.


I was concerned with Ginans and nothing else.

You see, unlike wahabism, Sunniism and the contemporaray shia 12werism, Ismailism is not RACIST; it is all embracing, fluid and accepts the Universal spirit of all & every beliefs.


Self contradictory comment, isn't it? Initially you've isolated yourself from Wahhabism, Sunnism and Shia 12erism, lastly you say Ismailism is non-racist and all embracing, fluid and accepts Universal sprit of every belief. Aren't Wahhabism, Sunnism, 12erism beliefs thus don't you contradict your very own words that you accept each and every religious beliefs?

Comming to the point, do you read different Ginans?
If yes, can you quote something from your Ginans which differentiate your beliefs from Sathpanthi beliefs in incarnation of Hindu gods. Please, give a link to your Ginans, Thanks.

If you do't understand the allegory and symbolism in any faith,you cant blame others for your ignorance.


Oh! if you have such a deep and firm belief in symbolism and allegory why do you talk so much about esoterism, what so ever Symbolic of Allegorical practises Muslims perfrom ( turning to Qibla in Makka, perfoming Salats, Undertaking Hajj) you say you believe in esoteric aspect and not just exoteric amals so turning to Qibla is Exoteric, and thus you ignore it in thirst of Esoterism but when it comes to your own innovations you jump from there to here saying we don't understand Symbolism and Allegory, Aren't you contradictory?

My point if you don't undersatnd the SYMBOLIC meanings of turning to Qibla, performing Hajj, performing Salats and all other amal which you term useless or subordinatory on grounds of Exoterism then in reply towards you I would like to quote your own words: If you do't understand the allegory and symbolism in any faith,you cant blame others for your ignorance.

Edited by Mazher's, 12 March 2006 - 07:22 AM.


#4 shia imami ismaili muslim

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 04:41 AM

[quote name='Mazher's' date='Mar 12 2006, 07:13 AM' post='1043228']


Sala'am,


Re:Self contradictory comment, isn't it? Initially you've isolated yourself from Wahhabism, Sunnism and Shia 12erism, lastly you say Ismailism is non-racist and all embracing, fluid and accepts Universal sprit of every belief. Aren't Wahhabism, Sunnism, 12erism beliefs thus don't you contradict your very own words that you accept each and every religious beliefs?


-----Not at all!Ismailism is like fluid. We accept every religion. The stress is on good action and belief in Allah and the Last day.WE,have nothing against wahabis and shia 12wers.You can appreciate that we have never entered into polemics with any faith and school of thought. We don't believe in sectarianism and attacking each others. The point I wanted to convey was that we are different from them in these points. But if they accept us, we would love to assimilate with them. “All religions are one in essence because they all have one aim which is the adhesion to the sublime ideals and the imitation of God as much as human capacity permits”.
For the basic essence of every faith is the same and this is only in rituals and the Furooaat that differ which are the means not the end in themselves to achieve the virtues that every religion professes.





Re:Comming to the point, do you read different Ginans?


-----I am not Khoja ismaili therefore I don't understand Gujra'ati.I read Persian Qasaids and manaqibs written by Pir Nasir Khusraw,Pir Shams Tabriz and Mowlana Rumi.



Re:Oh! if you have such a deep and firm belief in symbolism and allegory why do you talk so much about esoterism, what so ever Symbolic of Allegorical practises Muslims perfrom ( turning to Qibla in Makka, perfoming Salats, Undertaking Hajj) you say you believe in esoteric aspect and not just exoteric amals so turning to Qibla is Exoteric, and thus you ignore it in thirst of Esoterism but when it comes to your own innovations you jump from there to here saying we don't understand Symbolism and Allegory, Aren't you contradictory?



------WHY do you tend to see contradiction in every point? There is no contradiction in my statement at all. Please don’t confuse “Esoterism” and “symbolism and allegory”. They are two distinct terms. So your point in accusing me of contradicting myself is unfounded.


Re:My point if you don't undersatnd the SYMBOLIC meanings of turning to Qibla, performing Hajj, performing Salats and all other amal which you term useless or subordinatory on grounds of Exoterism then in reply towards you I would like to quote your own words: If you do't understand the allegory and symbolism in any faith,you cant blame others for your ignorance.




-----Symbolic meanings of turning to Qibla??I understand this. This was meant to bring uniformity in the prayers. The nascent Islamic community who was just out of idolatry could not comprehend, how they would worship an unseen God. And when the Jews ridiculed them for turning to their Qibla(that is Al-Aqsa) this qibla of Makka was introduced. But Allah made it clear that He is everywhere.





Re:Symbolic meanings of, performing Hajj, performing Salats and all other amal:

-----Sounding very naïve here!!!I cannot stop myself from laughing.Have’t I already written much more on this?



Peace & Love,

[quote name='Mazher's' date='Mar 12 2006, 07:13 AM' post='1043228']



Sala'am,

Afew questions of you had inadvertantly remained unanswered in my previous post.



Re:Comming to the point, do you read different Ginans?
If yes, can you quote something from your Ginans which differentiate your beliefs from Sathpanthi beliefs in incarnation of Hindu gods. Please, give a link to your Ginans, Thanks.


I mostly read persian ginans and poetry.
Visit: http://www.amaana.or...EB/ismpoet2.htm



Re:I know, but it was there in previous Imamate you can check it, since it fluid for you, you people have given up in accordance with time, not my bussiness. But for you kind information only Nizari Ismailis don't observe mourning, rest all other Ismaili branches mourn during Muharram ( ie: Dawoodi Bohra).



------Yes,all shias including the bohris observe mourning, but nizari ismailis don’t.The reason is simple, for they are in reality mourning the “Ghaiba” of their respective Imams who left them in the middle of journey, without completing it. They mourn the fact that if this was to be the ultimate fate, why did the Imamate started at all in the first place?They mourn, where did their Imam go and why?

Yes, the ismailis in the past observed this. But this was a form of "Taqia(Dissimulation)",for they were living among Predominantly shias 12wers in Iran.



Re:I was concerned with Ginans and nothing else.

[b]-----WHY, should you be concerned with my ginans and my faith at all. Are you authorized to do this? The actual problems starts here, when we start judging others instead of looking to ourself.Why should I be concerened,if some sunni or 12wer muslim is worshipping a grave? Why should I be concerned if a muslins is giving the title of “Murshid” to a person with unkempt beard and dirty clothes sitting in some Dargah and living on others charity. This is their personal belief and I don’t want to hurt this belief.



Peace & Love,

#5 Changed

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 07:54 AM

Not at all!Ismailism is like fluid


Fluids don't have any definate shape, you can make them flow in any direction, just give them a slope. Thus there is no direction, while Islam is vector in its principle, the opening verses of Qur'an itself enjoins on belivers to ask God to lead them in Right Direction ( Ahdinas siratul Mustaqim), thus Islam has a Direction and doesn't deviate from its core beliefs.

We accept every religion. The stress is on good action and belief in Allah and the Last day.


If Islam is complete, whats the reason to look into other's folds?

All religions are one in essence


What about Pagan cult of Quraishaites which Rasulallah (pbuh) broke?

-----Symbolic meanings of turning to Qibla??I understand this. This was meant to bring uniformity in the prayers. The nascent Islamic community who was just out of idolatry could not comprehend, how they would worship an unseen God. And when the Jews ridiculed them for turning to their Qibla(that is Al-Aqsa) this qibla of Makka was introduced. But Allah made it clear that He is everywhere.


Wheren't they able to comprehend that Allah is everywhere, secondly, you're so knowledgeable, can you please inform me as to why Qibla was established by prophets (as) under the command of God, who lived before Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) ( Ie: Jerusalem), why does Torah ask its follower to turn to Jerusalem?

------Yes,all shias including the bohris observe mourning, but nizari ismailis don’t.The reason is simple, for they are in reality mourning the “Ghaiba” of their respective Imams who left them in the middle of journey, without completing it. They mourn the fact that if this was to be the ultimate fate, why did the Imamate started at all in the first place?They mourn, where did their Imam go and why?

Yes, the ismailis in the past observed this. But this was a form of "Taqia(Dissimulation)",for they were living among Predominantly shias 12wers in Iran


Ghaibah of Imam is only for 12ers, if the whole and sole reason for mourning is that for occultation then why does Mustali Ismailis observe, they have their Dai ( Imam) with them?

-----WHY, should you be concerned with my ginans and my faith at all. Are you authorized to do this? The actual problems starts here, when we start judging others instead of looking to ourself.Why should I be concerened,if some sunni or 12wer muslim is worshipping a grave? Why should I be concerned if a muslins is giving the title of “Murshid” to a person with unkempt beard and dirty clothes sitting in some Dargah and living on others charity. This is their personal belief and I don’t want to hurt this belief.


If this is your belief then you shouldn't have entered into debate forums. Can I ask you why Rasulallah (pbuh) was concerned about those who worshipped Lat, Manat and Uzza, he (pbuh) too should have ignored it as it was their personal issue, why he bore the stone attack on himself in Taif, why he asked to give up idolatory?

Edited by Mazher's, 13 March 2006 - 07:57 AM.


#6 shia imami ismaili muslim

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 07:18 AM

[quote name='Mazher's' date='Mar 13 2006, 07:52 AM' post='1044532']


Sala'am,


Re:Fluids don't have any definate shape, you can make them flow in any direction, just give them a slope. Thus there is no direction, while Islam is vector in its principle, the opening verses of Qur'an itself enjoins on belivers to ask God to lead them in Right Direction ( Ahdinas siratul Mustaqim), thus Islam has a Direction and doesn't deviate from its core beliefs.


-----BEING fluid and accepting others doesn’t mean that you compromise on the basic principles of your faith. The ismaili p[osition on this issue is all about finding anything common among different faiths and highlighting them, instead of Picking and choosing those things, which unnecessarily give rise to conflicts. We reject the exclusivist ideologies of Wahabis,Osama and Khomeini.On the contary,our IMAM (as) preaches for building bridges and creating Pluralistic and democratic civil societies which would be in the common interest of all beliefs and schools of thought.

YOU are right to say, that the Qura’an gave direction to the humanity.NOW,you have to show this to the world. Allah didn’t tell us the path directly, rather, He is referring us to a path which has been adopted by the chosen and the rewarded ones. Now the Muslims have to turn to this path, which the holy Prophets (pbuh) and Aima’as (as) adopted. We are enjoined by the Qura’an to Invite the people towards virtue and to forbid the evil using the best of arguymets,not force the way the contemporary misguided Muslims have adopted.



Re:If Islam is complete, whats the reason to look into other's folds?

------No need for that. Islam is an all-encompassing faith, which even accepts the previously revealed books and faith systems. Even Allah says that this (The Qura’an) was revealed in the previous books as well. So we must try to find common things in other beliefs and try to build bridge with them, instead of entering into conflicts with them.




Re:What about Pagan cult of Quraishaites which Rasulallah broke?


------PAGANISM was not a faith system. It was a man-made evil ideology. So this man-made system was to be replaced by a revealed one.




Re:Wheren't they able to comprehend that Allah is everywhere, secondly, you're so knowledgeable, can you please inform me as to why Qibla was established by prophets under the command of God, who lived before Prophet Muhammed ( Ie: Jerusalem), why does Torah ask its follower to turn to Jerusalem?


-------THE people who had just been out of idolatry, who were habitual of worshipping their deity (god) which was put in front of them were unable to comprehend that they must worship a God which is Unseen (to them nowhere!). So, they needed some direction, which was shown to them. But Allah asked us not to enter into polemic about the direction of prayers, for Allah was everywhere, and wherever you would turn, Allah would be there(Al-Qura'an).


I am not that much knowledgeable, but a student of theology. I want to learn from you people and have some useful dialogue with you.

For, Torah, the same answer as above. The Jews wanted to make Allah a racial God, and considered themselves to be the chosen one. So they made this a part of their faith and still stick to the same. THE Qura’an says that you will not find any change in Allah’s habit, then why would have He changed His place of dwelling, that is Qibla.Does this make sense to you?



Re:Ghaibah of Imam is only for 12ers, if the whole and sole reason for mourning is that for occultation then why does Mustali Ismailis observe, they have their Dai ( Imam) with them?



------YOU mind not have studied their doctrines. There present Spiritual head is a Dai,not Imam.Infact according to their belief, their last Imam went to ghaiba(occultation),and they are like the 12wers awaiting the arrival of their Imam.



Re:If this is your belief then you shouldn't have entered into debate forums. Can I ask you why Rasulallah was concerned about those who worshipped Lat, Manat and Uzza, he too should have ignored it as it was their personal issue, why he bore the stone attack on himself in Taif, why he asked to give up idolatory?



------I am not here for debate. My sole purpose of coming here was to have a healthy dialogue with Shia 12wer brothers and share what is common among us and dispel any misconception which has been created by the polemicists and slanderers.



Allah’s Rassol (pbuh) had come with a mission entrusted to Him by Allah. His mission was to be carried forward by the one he made the mowla (as) after him and the one inherited his authority and legacy. Everybody should not consider himself qualified for that, otherwise the things will be the same as happened in Afghanistan under Taliba’an.

Do, the Muslims of today have the tolerance and humility, the prophet (pbuh) had. Why, do they forget about this Sunnat. He forgave even those who attacked him in Taif. Did he attach the idolaters or was he still praying for Allah’s mercy on those ignorant? And what the Muslims are doing today?




Peace & Love,

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 05:31 AM

------PAGANISM was not a faith system. It was a man-made evil ideology. So this man-made system was to be replaced by a revealed one.



Be more factual anything other than Islam is man-made even those system which you claim to contain Divine Sprit.

I have more replies but my PC is having little bit of problem, just wait till this heck is over, I'll reply soon.

#8 Just_be_well

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 08:55 AM

Be more factual anything other than Islam is man-made even those system which you claim to contain Divine Sprit.

I have more replies but my PC is having little bit of problem, just wait till this heck is over, I'll reply soon.




Sala'am,

While I respect your beleif,I would like to disagree with you on this point.By saying that all the religions except ISLAM,are like paganism,you have contradicted the Qura'an.We,Iismailis like Sufis differ here from other schools of thought,and accept each and every divine religion which came before Muhammad (pbuh).

As a proof,I would like to paste a very enlightening article here.


The Qura'am and Ahle-e-Kita'ab (The people of the Book):

THE INTERFAITH DAILOGUE

Source:http://www.dawn.com/2006/03/13/letted.htm#2



"refer to the Quranic verse 5:69, which is “For the (Muslim) believers, the Jews, the Sabians, and the Christians — those who believe in God and the Last Day and do good deeds — there is no fear; they will not grieve.”

The Holy Quran clearly defines its relationship with earlier scriptures by saying: “He has sent the Scripture down to you (Prophet) with the Truth, confirming what went before; He sent down the Torah and the Gospel earlier as a guide for people” (3:3-4).Indeed it urges the Christians and the Jews to practice their religion (5:68, 44-47). They are given the honorific title of ‘People of the Book’, and the Quran appeals to what is common between them; “Say, People of the Book, let us arrive at a statement that is common to us all; we worship God alone, we ascribe no partner to Him, and none of us takes others besides God as lords” (3:64).

The Quran forbids arguing with the People of the Book except in the best way and urges the Muslims to say: “We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you; our God and your God are one [and the same]” (29:46). God addresses Muslims, Jews and Christians with the following: “We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If God had so willed, He would have made you one community; but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good; you will return to God and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about” (5:48).

These are explicit statements which the Muslims involved in inter-faith dialogue must rely upon"


The 48th Imam of Ismaili Muslims,Sultan Muhammad Shah (as) wrote in this memoire under the title "Islam,Tthe religion of My ancestors";

"First, however, we must ask ourselves why this final and consummate appearance of the Divine Will was granted to mankind, and what were its causes. All Islamic schools of thought accept it as a fundamental principle that for centuries, for thousands of years before the advent of Mohammed, there arose from time to time messengers, illumined by Divine Grace, for and among those races of the earth which had sufficiently advanced intellectually to comprehend such a message. Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countriesGautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost. Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe".
Ssource; http://amaana.org/su...indexsultan.htm


Sala'am

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Posted 26 March 2006 - 09:42 AM

I never said every religion in the sense in which you took it, actually, the true religion which the Prophets (as) bought was nothing other than Islam, people fused their idiotic ideas into it and then it got deviated, but to say that all religions were true is again a falsehood, few were divine actually former versions of Islam ( ie: Ahlul Kitab) but most of the religions were satanic right from their very begining.

#10 Excalibur

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Posted 27 March 2006 - 08:53 PM

Ismaili:

The ismaili p[osition on this issue is all about finding anything common among different faiths and highlighting them, instead of Picking and choosing those things, which unnecessarily give rise to conflicts.

What is paganism? Is Hinduism paganism? Is Confuciusm paganism?

#11 Link

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    ...for those who intend not to exult themselves in the earth...

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 06:16 PM

the Ismaili Imam is a freemason or a servant of the feemasons, he is not a servant of God

inshallah soon I will show the link of Ismaili Imams had with templars, and how the world works, then you can see the ismaili Imam for who he is

thread coming soon inshallah

#12 Lion of Allah(swt)

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 01:06 AM

(bismillah)

(salam)

Please brother, I simply request that you work diligently to bring forth this highly anticipated thread.

WS

#13 Changed

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 11:14 AM

Is it upto me?

Well, I would be thankful, if someone informs to the points herein rather than accusations.

#14 Just_be_well

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Posted 18 April 2006 - 08:30 AM

Ismaili:

What is paganism? Is Hinduism paganism? Is Confuciusm paganism?



No,you can't say this in both of the above.Afterall,there have been 1,24,000 prophets and we don't have the record of all of them.Only 27(correct me if I am wrong) have been mentioned in the Qura'an.

WHAT EVER may be the fact about them and wheather or not they are correct is the sole prerogative of Allah to decide.WE have to respect each and every faith and belief system.

#15 Jawanmardan

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Posted 24 July 2006 - 06:51 AM

The Ginans are merely songs sung by Ismailis in Jammat Khanas in celibration of our leaders, The Imams, the Prophet, and of course God.

Originally they were composed by Ismaili Dais to convert members of ruling Indian Castes to Islam. So the symbolism of Hindu tradition was employed particularly that of Vishnu who was an important figure, in north west India, this allowed Hindus to more easily understand and adopt Islam.

Ginans, as Persian Qasidas, or Arabic songs, form an important part of ritual for us they remind us of who we are and where we came from, the most useful and profound elements of being Indian, or Persian, Arabic, or Turkic, or English, Norwegian are kept a hold of in the Islamic community that follows the guidance of the 49th Imam.

WHY?

Simply because our diversity enriches our community, not weakens it. Just as willing as I would be to speak or sing in Norwegian in praise of God, or to use a Persian Qasida, so others will do the same for me. We do not seek to be clone copies; what makes my culture strong I will use to strengthen my fellow believers, what makes their culture strong they will use to enrich me.

Edited by Jawanmardan, 24 July 2006 - 06:59 AM.




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