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The Marriage of `Umar ibn al-Khattab with Umm Kult


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#1 Abdullah ibn Mas'ud

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 11:25 AM

The Marriage of `Umar ibn al-Khattab with Umm Kulthum bint `Ali Allah be well-pleased with all of them.

BY: Shaykh Gibril Haddad

The marriage of `Umar with Umm Kulthum al-Hashimiyya (6-49) the daughter of `Ali and Fatima took place on the year 17 of the Hijra. `Ali gave her away to `Umar upon his request although he was afraid at first that `Umar might not accept her due to her youth and because he wished her to marry one of her cousins among the sons of Ja`far ibn Abi Talib. But `Umar said, ‘Marry her to me for I swear I have toward her more dedication to excellent companionship than any man on the face of the earth.’

`Umar gave her a dowry of 40,000 dirhams in honor of her lineage to the Messenger of Allah, upon him blessings and peace.

He came to the Muhajirun among the Companions as they sat between the Grave and the Pulpit ‘their usual place for meeting `Umar to discuss news: ‘Felicitate this newlywed!’ Then he told them he had married `Ali’s daughter Umm Kulthum and said: ‘I heard the Messenger of Allah say, upon him blessings and peace: ‘Every lineage and means will be severed on the Day of Judgment except my lineage and my means.’ I have kept company with him and wished to add this also.’ Later he again said, on the pulpit: ‘Do not disparage me [for marrying a young girl], for I heard the Prophet say, upon him blessings and peace: ‘On the Judgment Day every means will be cut off and every lineage severed except my lineage.’’

It is well-known that our liege-lord `Umar ibn al-Khattab, Allah be well-pleased with him, had a particular veneration for the Prophetic Household (Ahl al-Bayt) as illustrated by the following additional reports:

Ibn Sa`d narrated from al-Sha`bi and al-Hasan that al-`Abbas had some need of `Umar one day and said to him:
"Commander of the Believers, suppose the uncle of Musa, upon him peace, came to you as a Muslim, how would you treat him?" He replied, "I swear by Allah that I would treat him well!" Al-`Abbas said, "Well, I am the uncle of Muhammad the Prophet - upon him and his House blessings and peace!" `Umar said, "Abu al-Fadl, and what do you suppose? By Allah, your father [`Abd al-Muttalib] is certainly dearer to me than my own father!" He said, "By Allah?" `Umar said, "By Allah, yes! Because I know that he [`Abd al-Muttalib] is dearer to the Messenger of Allah than my own father, therefore I prefer the love of the
Messenger of Allah to my love."

A man disparaged `Ali ibn Abi Talib in the presence of `Umar whereupon the latter said: "Do you know the dweller of this grave? He is Muhammad ibn `Abd Allah ibn `Abd al-Muttalib. And `Ali is the son of Abu Talib ibn `Abd al-Muttalib. Therefore, do not mention `Ali except in a good way for if you dislike him you will harm this one in his grave." Narrated by Ahmad with a good chain in Fada'il al-Sahaba (2: 641 #1089).

After `Umar saw al-Husayn ibn `Ali ibn Abi Talib waiting at his door he said to him: "You are more deserving of permission to enter than [my son] `Abd Allah ibn `Umar! You see the goodness that was placed on our head; [therefore] first Allah then you [the Prophetic Household]" and he placed his hand on his head as he spoke. Narrated by Ibn Sa`d, Ibn Rahuyah, and al-Khatib.

`Umar distributed garments to the Companions but found nothing appropriate for al-Hasan and al-Husayn so he sent a message to Yemen and had a kiswa sent, which he offered them. Then he said, ‘Now I am content.’ Narrated by Ibn al-Jawzi in Manaqib `Umar (p. 97).
Umm Kulthum bore `Umar Zayd al-Akbar, known as Ibn al-Khalifatayn (= ‘Son of the Two Caliphs’ i.e. `Umar and `Ali) who became renowned for his great beauty, and a daughter, Ruqayya.

After `Umar died she remarried, upon `Ali's order, with `Awn ibn Ja`far ibn Abi Talib. When `Awn died `Ali remarried her with `Awn's brother Muhammad ibn Ja`far. Ibn Sa`d and al-Daraqutni claim that when the latter also died young, she remarried with his brother `Abd Allah ibn Ja`far who was widowed of her sister Zaynab bint `Ali ‘an anachronism since Zaynab outlived Umm Kulthum and was present at Karbala’ where her two sons from `Abd Allah, Muhammad and `Awn [both named after their uncles], were killed.

Zayd al-Akbar died a young man, childless, from a stone throw in the time of Mu`awiya. Umm Kulthum died at the same time and Sa`id ibn al-`As ibn Sa`id or Ibn `Umar prayed over them, Allah have mercy on them.

Sources:

Ibn al-Jarud, al-Muntaqa [an entirely sahih book] (p. 142);
al-Zubayr ibn Bakkar, al-Muntakhab min Azwaj al-Nabi SallAllahu `alayhi wa-Sallam (p. 30-31);
al-Dulabi, al-Dhurriyat al-Tahira (p. 62);
Ibn Sa`d, Tabaqat (8:337-340=8:463-464);
al-Siyar wal-Maghazi (p. 248);
Tarikh al-Ya`qubi (2:260);
Ibn Shabba's Tarikh al-Madina (2:654);
Nasab Quraysh (p. 352);
`Abd al-Razzaq, Musannaf (3:465);
al-Nasa'i, Sunan (4:71) and Sunan Kubra (1:641);
al-Bukhari, Tarikh al-Saghir (1:102);
Ibn Qutayba, Ma`arif (p. 107, 122);
al-Tabari, Tarikh (4:199 and 5:335);
al-Daraqutni, Sunan (2:79);
al-Bayhaqi, Sunan Kubra (4:33);
Ibn `Abd al-Barr, Isti`ab (4:490-491);
al-Nawawi, Tahdhib al-Asma' wal-Lughat (2:267 #1219);
al-Dhahabi, Siyar A`lam al-Nubala' (Dar al-Fikr ed. 5:22-24) and Tarikh al-Islam (4:58-59, 4:137-139, 4:227, 5:21);
al-Dimyati, Nisa’ al-Rasul (p. 128);
Ibn Hajar, Isaba (4:492 #1481);
Ibn al-Athir, Usd al-Ghaba (7:387-388) and al-Kamil fi al-Tarikh (3:54, 4:12);
al-Suyuti, al-Hawi lil-Fatawa (2:179);

Edited by Jamiat-e-Islami, 12 February 2006 - 11:26 AM.


#2 Abdullah ibn Mas'ud

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 11:28 AM

(salam)

I think that the Shia Ulema does not recognize this hadith because it would refute the Shia claim that Hazrat Ali ibn Abu-Talib (ra) was opposed to Hazrat Umar bin al-Khattab (ra) . Because if Hazrat Ali ibn Abu-Talib (ra) didn't give his daughter to Hazrat Umar bin al-Khattab (ra) then it would back up the Shia claim BUT if he DID give his daughter to Hazrat Umar bin al-Khattab (ra) then it would refute the Shia claim.

#3 Aghamalang

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 11:42 AM

This has been refuted again and again

#4 Abdullah ibn Mas'ud

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 11:45 AM

This has been refuted again and again

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Now tell me why on earth the hadith writers would make up such a thing?

#5 Aghamalang

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 12:08 PM

Hadeeth writers narrated many false things such as Satanic verses, so I dont think we should go down that route.

I'd suggest you go and read Mufti Ghulam Rasool a fellow Hanaf Hasab aur Nasab where in he refutes all these narrations, deeming them a lie.

#6 Anti_nasibi

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 09:45 AM

Hazrat Ummar never married the daughter of Hazrat Ali (as) .

Hazrat Ummar had saveral wives with the name Umm Kulthum.

Umme Kalthum Jameela binte Asim bin Thabit - the mother of Asim bin Umar.
(Tareekh Khamees Volume 2 page 251).


Umme Kalthum binte Jarweela Khuzeema - Her actual name was Maleeka. She was the mother of Zaid bin Umar.
(Tareekh Kamil Volume 3 page 22).


Umme Kalthum binte Ukba bin Abi Mayyath - Zuhri narrates that during the period of jahiliyya she was the wife of Amr bin Aas. She left him and embraced Islam. Her relatives approached Rasulullah (s) and asked that she be returned. Rasulullah (s) replied 'Any woman that embraces Islam cannot be returned, Amr bin Aas was a kaffir at the time, she was not returned and Umar married her.
(Sharh Bukhari, by Qasthalani Volume 4 page 349).


Umme Kalthum binte Rahab.
(Sunan Abu Daud and Ibn Majah)


Umme Kalthum binte Abu Bakr - Born to Asma binte Umais. She was also the mother of Muhammad bin Abu Bakr. (Alam al Nisa Volume 4 page 250). She was born in 12 Hijri, after the death of Abu Bakr (Tabari Volume 2 page 50; Tareekh Kamil Volume 2 page 161; Tareekh Khamees Volume 2 page 267; al Isaba page 286) Asma married Imam 'Ali (as) and the young Umme Kalthum joined her mother in the house of Imam 'Ali (as).
Sunni research scholar Malik Daulath Abadi in "Hidayaath al Saud" page 359 states:




The marriage of fifty five year old Umar ibn al Khattab to five year old Umme Kalthum binte Abu Bakr (ra)


We read in Kanz al Ummal Volume 7 page 98:

"Umar (ra) proposed to marry Umme Kalthum binte Abu Bakr, and made the proposal to Ayesha (ra) . Ayesha (ra) replied 'She is too young, but where we will she go without you? Umme Kalthum approached Ayesha (ra) and said 'I have heard that you want to marry me to Umar. He will give me a tough life; I am in need of a young man, who loves this world. If you marry me to Umar then I shall complain before Rasulullah (pbuh) . Ayesha (ra) then summoned Amr bin Aas who said 'I shall deal with the matter'. Amr spoke to Umar, after a general conversation he said 'I hear that you intend on marrying'. Umar (ra) replied 'Yes'. Amr bin Aas asked 'Who?' Umar replied 'Umme Kalthum binte Abu Bakr (ra) '. Amr then said 'She is a child that shall cry for her father every day'. Umar (ra) then said 'Did Ayesha (ra) send you?


Actually Hazrat Umar married a Lady named Um Kulthum but it was daughter of Hazrat Abu bakr (ra) . This is misconception because Hazrat Ali (as) marries widow of Hazrat Abu Bakr (ra) to support his children.



How can ummar (ra) marry his Son-in-law's grand daughter???
And another man cannot marry a Sayyida Woman.


#7 ZulfiSaifedDinFsblh

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 03:56 PM

And another man cannot marry a Sayyida Woman.</span>

Have you a Hadith to back up your claim ?

#8 AbuIthnayn

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 10:15 AM

This has been refuted again and again


If thats the case, then can you please clarify the below?

“Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (as) said: ‘Umm Kulthoom bint Ali and her son Zayd bin Umar both died at the same time. It was not possible to ascertain who had died first. They did not inherit from one another and their funeral prayers were read at the same time.”

Umm Khulthoom (ra) did marry Umar (ra) & they had 2 children (Zayd bin Umar & Ruqayyah bint Umar) Zayd bin Umar died on the same day as Umm Khulthoom.
Tadheeb al-Ahkam (Vol.2, p.380) in Chapter “Meeras”:

#9 Kismet110

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 11:22 AM

If thats the case, then can you please clarify the below?

“Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (as) said: ‘Umm Kulthoom bint Ali and her son Zayd bin Umar both died at the same time. It was not possible to ascertain who had died first. They did not inherit from one another and their funeral prayers were read at the same time.”

Umm Khulthoom (ra) did marry Umar (ra) & they had 2 children (Zayd bin Umar & Ruqayyah bint Umar) Zayd bin Umar died on the same day as Umm Khulthoom.
Tadheeb al-Ahkam (Vol.2, p.380) in Chapter “Meeras”:


How does one hadeeth (or indeed numerous) make an iota of difference when you consider the respective ages of Umme Kulthum (as) and Umar at the time of this supposed marriage? You believe the 2nd Caliph wanted to marry a 5 year old child? And why should anyone (Sunni or Shiah) accept a hadeeth that goes against Quran, Sunnah or simple, plain common sense?

The dates don't add up; this marriage was supposed to have taken place in 17 AH, Umar passed away in 23 AH. At that time Umme Kulthum (as) would have been around 11. If we assume she became baligh at nine then it means not only that she had two children by the age of 10/11 but, more frighteningly, Umar got one of them married - at the ripe old age of one:

"From the womb of Umme Kalthum, Umar became the father of a girl called Ruqayya. This is that girl whom Umar married to Ibrahim al Najm, and she died whilst living with him".

Ibn Qutaybah Al Maarif page 80 (Egypt Edition)

If you accept this marriage took place then you will also have to accept the 2nd Caliph was a pervert. Or worse.

Allah Hafiz

ALI

Edited by Kismet110, 04 February 2011 - 11:25 AM.


#10 AbuIthnayn

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 01:10 PM

How does one hadeeth (or indeed numerous) make an iota of difference when you consider the respective ages of Umme Kulthum (as) and Umar at the time of this supposed marriage? You believe the 2nd Caliph wanted to marry a 5 year old child? And why should anyone (Sunni or Shiah) accept a hadeeth that goes against Quran, Sunnah or simple, plain common sense?


Are you for real?, Didnt the messenger of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì marry Aisha (ra) when she was similar in age?

The dates don't add up; this marriage was supposed to have taken place in 17 AH, Umar passed away in 23 AH. At that time Umme Kulthum (as) would have been around 11. If we assume she became baligh at nine then it means not only that she had two children by the age of 10/11 but, more frighteningly, Umar got one of them married - at the ripe old age of one:


So what your saying is that in the time of Arabia, no young woman would have given birth? Again, are you for real? What world are you living in? Look around you my friend young girls are giving birth at early stages of their lives through this world. When a young womans period cycle begins, she can give birth, its what you Shia call "logic"

If you accept this marriage took place then you will also have to accept the 2nd Caliph was a pervert. Or worse.


Be careful in what you right otherwise you will shoot yourself in the foot!!! How old was fatima (ra) when she was married to Ali (ra) shall I remind you? she was 9, so when you fling words like pervert, be careful because you indirectly call Imam Ali (ra) the same thing (Nauzubillah)

#11 Gypsy

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 02:39 PM

(salam)
Is there a reason why the hadeeths are addressing this daughter of Imam Ali (as) as ‘Umm Khulthom?’ and not Zaynab (the younger one). Shouldn’t she been known as Umm Zayd or Umm Ruqayah?

:unsure:

#12 Kismet110

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 02:47 PM

^^^

Good try but sadly no prize for you. I acknowledged in my post that 9 is the typical age for a girl to become baligh, also accepted it is possible for an 11 year old to have borne two children.

The reference to potential perversion is related to Caliph 2 wanting to marry a FIVE year old and then marrying off a ONE year old child - get it now?

Allah Hafiz

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#13 AbuIthnayn

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Posted 04 February 2011 - 06:20 PM

^^^

Good try but sadly no prize for you. I acknowledged in my post that 9 is the typical age for a girl to become baligh, also accepted it is possible for an 11 year old to have borne two children.

The reference to potential perversion is related to Caliph 2 wanting to marry a FIVE year old and then marrying off a ONE year old child - get it now?

Allah Hafiz

ALI


I see that you have seen the foolishness of your ways because it has backfired on you!. Clearly you do NOT understand the culture of the Arabs at the time of the Prophet (SAW) as it was common to bethroth young girls to older men as in the case of Aisha (ra) to the Prophet (SAW). Just because it doesnt fit in your "logic" doesnt make it irrelevant!! Also seeing that you have acknowledged that Ali (ra) gave his daughter Umm Khulthoom to Umar (ra) has blown your own arguments out the water. If you wish I can bring your own hadith which refer to the daughter of Ali (ra) in the most dispicable manner that you will be left speechless. You guys claim to uphold Ahlul Bayt, but in reality you vilify them too the extremes, it is utterly unbelievable!

Even your own "infalliable" Imams admit to this historical fact (below)!! lets see you dig your way out this hole then..!!

I was informed by Anas ibn âIyad al-Laythi, who reports on the authority of Jafar ibn Muhammad as-Sadiq, and he from his father Muhammad al-Baqir that Umar ibn al-Khattab asked Ali ibn Abi Talib for the hand of Umm Kulthoom in marriage. Ali said, I had kept my daughters for the sons of Jafar Umar said, Marry her to me, O Abul Hasan, for by Allah,there is no man on the face of the earth who seeks to achieve through her good companionship that which I seek to achieve Ali said, I have done so

Then Umar came to the Muhajirun between the grave [of Rasool-Allah] and the pulpit. They Ali, Uthman, Zubayr, Talhah and Abd ar-Rahman used to sit there, and whenever a matter used to arrive from the frontiers, Umar used to come to them there and consult with them. He came to them and said, Congratulate me They congratulated him, and asked, With whom are we congratulating you, O Amir al-Mu'minin? He replied, With the daughter of Ali ibn Abi Talib

(Ibn Saâd in his work “at-Tabaqat al-Kubra”, vol.8, p.338)

#14 Kismet110

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 05:54 AM

^^^

Er, are you slightly 'simple'? I've not acknowledged this marriage at all, only pointed out to you that if you insist it happened then it doesn't show your King in a good light.

Don't even start on the subject of obscene hadeeth, on that front the Sunni narrators win comfortably - if you want I can post a few from your popular books?

Thankfully (logically), Shia acknowledge human error in their compilations so you can save your time & effort dredging up 'proofs' from Shia books, it makes not a smidgeon of difference.

Allah Hafiz

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#15 elite

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 07:13 AM

If thats the case, then can you please clarify the below?

“Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (as) said: ‘Umm Kulthoom bint Ali and her son Zayd bin Umar both died at the same time. It was not possible to ascertain who had died first. They did not inherit from one another and their funeral prayers were read at the same time.”

Umm Khulthoom (ra) did marry Umar (ra) & they had 2 children (Zayd bin Umar & Ruqayyah bint Umar) Zayd bin Umar died on the same day as Umm Khulthoom.
Tadheeb al-Ahkam (Vol.2, p.380) in Chapter “Meeras”:


From : http://revivingalisl...mm-kulthum.html

Here is an interesting Hadeeth. This Hadeeth is weak, due to Ja`far bin Muhammad Al-Qummee being majhool (unkown) according to Al-Majlisi (Milaadh Al-Akhyaar, vol. 15, pg. 382), and Al-Khoei (Mu`jam Rijaal Al-Hadeeth, vol. 4, pg. 128, person # 2305), but it is interesting to take out nonetheless since we already have SaHeeH hadeeth proving the marriage took place.

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ يَحْيَى عَنْ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ الْقُمِّيِّ عَنِ الْقَدَّاحِ عَنْ جَعْفَرٍ عَنْ أَبِيهِ ع قَالَ مَاتَتْ أُمُّ كُلْثُومٍ بِنْتُ عَلِيٍّ ع وَ ابْنُهَا زَيْدُ بْنُ عُمَرَ بْنِ الْخَطَّابِ فِي سَاعَةٍ وَاحِدَةٍ لَا يُدْرَى أَيُّهُمَا هَلَكَ قَبْلُ فَلَمْ يُوَرِّثْ أَحَدَهُمَا مِنَ الْآخَرِ وَ صَلَّى عَلَيْهِمَا جَمِيعاً

From Al-QadaaH from Ja`far (Al-Saadiq) (عليه السلام) from his father (عليه السلام) He said: “Umm Kulthoom, daughter of `Alee (عليه السلام), and her son Zayd bin `Umar bin Al-KhaTTaab died at the same time. They did not know who passed away before, so they did not inherit from one another, and they prayed (the funeral prayer) upon them together”
Source:
1. Al-Toosi, Tahdheeb Al-aHkaam, vol. 9, ch. 36, pg. 362, hadeeth # 15
Grading:
1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Majhool (Unknown)
 Milaadh Al-Akhyaar, vol. 15, pg. 382


I see that you have seen the foolishness of your ways because it has backfired on you!. Clearly you do NOT understand the culture of the Arabs at the time of the Prophet (SAW) as it was common to bethroth young girls to older men as in the case of Aisha (ra) to the Prophet (SAW). Just because it doesnt fit in your "logic" doesnt make it irrelevant!! Also seeing that you have acknowledged that Ali (ra) gave his daughter Umm Khulthoom to Umar (ra) has blown your own arguments out the water. If you wish I can bring your own hadith which refer to the daughter of Ali (ra) in the most dispicable manner that you will be left speechless. You guys claim to uphold Ahlul Bayt, but in reality you vilify them too the extremes, it is utterly unbelievable!

Even your own "infalliable" Imams admit to this historical fact (below)!! lets see you dig your way out this hole then..!!

I was informed by Anas ibn âIyad al-Laythi, who reports on the authority of Jafar ibn Muhammad as-Sadiq, and he from his father Muhammad al-Baqir that Umar ibn al-Khattab asked Ali ibn Abi Talib for the hand of Umm Kulthoom in marriage. Ali said, I had kept my daughters for the sons of Jafar Umar said, Marry her to me, O Abul Hasan, for by Allah,there is no man on the face of the earth who seeks to achieve through her good companionship that which I seek to achieve Ali said, I have done so

Then Umar came to the Muhajirun between the grave [of Rasool-Allah] and the pulpit. They Ali, Uthman, Zubayr, Talhah and Abd ar-Rahman used to sit there, and whenever a matter used to arrive from the frontiers, Umar used to come to them there and consult with them. He came to them and said, Congratulate me They congratulated him, and asked, With whom are we congratulating you, O Amir al-Mu'minin? He replied, With the daughter of Ali ibn Abi Talib

(Ibn Saâd in his work “at-Tabaqat al-Kubra”, vol.8, p.338)


from :http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/umme_kulthum/en/chap6.php

Reply One - Tabaqat Ibn Sa'd is a Sunni text that has no authority for the Shi'a


It seems that this Nasibi is not too familiar with Sunni / Shi'a polemics. One of the rules of Sunni / Shi'a debates is that one Sect must cite the text of the other Sect so as to convince his opponents. The very fact that this reference has been quoted from a Sunni text, means that is bears no value to us, we are entitled to reject it automatically. If Afriki wants to convince the Shi'a he can only do so by citing this tradition with this chain in a Shi'a text.


Edited by elite, 05 February 2011 - 07:09 AM.


#16 AbuIthnayn

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 03:17 PM

Elite before I embarrass you by quoting from your own hadith books, I think you need to come to the forum will a clear understanding that if a Hadith from your own deviant belief confirms the marriage then you MUST accept it even if it goes against your own "logic"

Even though I totally dispute what Umar actually said in the below hadith, the subject matter actually acknowledges that the marriage happened!!

Muhammad ibn Abi Umay Hisham ibn Salim, who narrates that Imam Jafar as-Sadiq said: When [Umar] proposed to Amir al-Mu'minin, he said, She is a child, then he [Umar] met Abbas and asked him, What is wrong with me? Is there a problem with me? Abbas asked, Why? Umar replied, I asked your nephew for his daughter hand in marriage, and he rejected me. Oh, I swear by Allah, I will fill the well of Zamzam with earth, I will destroy every honor that you have, and I will set up two witnesses to testify that he stole, that I may cut off his right hand. Abbas thereupon came to Ali and informed him of what had transpired. He asked Ali to put the matter in his hands, and Ali complied.

(Furoo al-Kafi, vol.6, p.117)

The above narration came down to al-Kulayni through Ali ibn Ibrahim, from his father, from Ibn Abi Umayr. Which are ALL reliable in Shia Isnad (lets see you dig your way out of this one)

Humayd ibn Ziyadâ bn Samaâ Muhammad ibn Ziyadâ Abdullah ibn Sinanâ Muawiyyah ibn Ammar Imam Jafar as-Sadiq:I asked him about a woman whose husband died: Should she spend her iddah in her house, or where she wants to? He [the Imam] replied, Where she wants to. When Umar died, Ali came and took Umm Kulthoom to his house.

(Furoo al-Kafi, vol.6, p.117)

Al-Kulayni reports this narration from his teacher Humayd ibn Ziyad. This Humayd is graded by the Shia rijal critics as alim jalil al-qadr, wasiâ al-âilm, kathir at-tasnif, thiqaha a learned scholar of great status, wide knowledge, a prolific author, reliable). (Jamiâ ar-Ruwat, vol.1, p.284)

Ibn Samaah is properly known as al-Hasan ibn Muhammad ibn Samaah. He was one of the foremost Shia fuqaha of Kufa, and is described as kathir al-hadith, faqihun thiqah (a prolific narrator of Hadith, a jurist, reliable). (Jamiâ ar-Ruwat, vol.1, p.225)

Muhammad ibn Ziyad is properly known as Muhammad ibn al-Hasan ibn Ziyad al-Attar. He is described as reliable. (Jamiâ ar-Ruwat, vol.2, p.91)

Abdullah ibn Sinan was an eminent Imami Shia of Kufa about whom it is stated: thiqatun min ashabina, la yuta anu alayhi fi shayâ (one of our reliable associates against whom no criticism whatsoever can be levelled). (Jamiâ ar-Ruwat, vol.1, p.487)

Muawiyyah ibn Ammar was an eminent and leading Shia narrator of Kufa who narrates from Imam Jafar as-Sadiq. His Shia biographers have documented about him that he was wajhan min ashabina muqaddaman, kabir ash-shan, azim al-mahall, thiqah (a leading figure amongst our associates, pre-eminent, great in status, exalted in position, reliable). (Jamiâ ar-Ruwat, vol.2, p.239)

Now lets see you dig your "Taqqiyah" way out of this then!!!

JZ

#17 elite

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 11:47 PM

Elite before I embarrass you by quoting from your own hadith books, I think you need to come to the forum will a clear understanding that if a Hadith from your own deviant belief confirms the marriage then you MUST accept it even if it goes against your own "logic"

Even though I totally dispute what Umar actually said in the below hadith, the subject matter actually acknowledges that the marriage happened!!

Muhammad ibn Abi Umay Hisham ibn Salim, who narrates that Imam Jafar as-Sadiq said: When [Umar] proposed to Amir al-Mu'minin, he said, She is a child, then he [Umar] met Abbas and asked him, What is wrong with me? Is there a problem with me? Abbas asked, Why? Umar replied, I asked your nephew for his daughter hand in marriage, and he rejected me. Oh, I swear by Allah, I will fill the well of Zamzam with earth, I will destroy every honor that you have, and I will set up two witnesses to testify that he stole, that I may cut off his right hand. Abbas thereupon came to Ali and informed him of what had transpired. He asked Ali to put the matter in his hands, and Ali complied.

(Furoo al-Kafi, vol.6, p.117)

The above narration came down to al-Kulayni through Ali ibn Ibrahim, from his father, from Ibn Abi Umayr. Which are ALL reliable in Shia Isnad (lets see you dig your way out of this one)

Humayd ibn Ziyadâ bn Samaâ Muhammad ibn Ziyadâ Abdullah ibn Sinanâ Muawiyyah ibn Ammar Imam Jafar as-Sadiq:I asked him about a woman whose husband died: Should she spend her iddah in her house, or where she wants to? He [the Imam] replied, Where she wants to. When Umar died, Ali came and took Umm Kulthoom to his house.

(Furoo al-Kafi, vol.6, p.117)

Al-Kulayni reports this narration from his teacher Humayd ibn Ziyad. This Humayd is graded by the Shia rijal critics as alim jalil al-qadr, wasiâ al-âilm, kathir at-tasnif, thiqaha a learned scholar of great status, wide knowledge, a prolific author, reliable). (Jamiâ ar-Ruwat, vol.1, p.284)

Ibn Samaah is properly known as al-Hasan ibn Muhammad ibn Samaah. He was one of the foremost Shia fuqaha of Kufa, and is described as kathir al-hadith, faqihun thiqah (a prolific narrator of Hadith, a jurist, reliable). (Jamiâ ar-Ruwat, vol.1, p.225)

Muhammad ibn Ziyad is properly known as Muhammad ibn al-Hasan ibn Ziyad al-Attar. He is described as reliable. (Jamiâ ar-Ruwat, vol.2, p.91)

Abdullah ibn Sinan was an eminent Imami Shia of Kufa about whom it is stated: thiqatun min ashabina, la yuta anu alayhi fi shayâ (one of our reliable associates against whom no criticism whatsoever can be levelled). (Jamiâ ar-Ruwat, vol.1, p.487)

Muawiyyah ibn Ammar was an eminent and leading Shia narrator of Kufa who narrates from Imam Jafar as-Sadiq. His Shia biographers have documented about him that he was wajhan min ashabina muqaddaman, kabir ash-shan, azim al-mahall, thiqah (a leading figure amongst our associates, pre-eminent, great in status, exalted in position, reliable). (Jamiâ ar-Ruwat, vol.2, p.239)

Now lets see you dig your "Taqqiyah" way out of this then!!!

JZ


An analysis of the Ahl'ul Sunnah traditions makes it clear that the Umme Kalthum being described was a child this Umme Kalthum could not have been more than five years of age, at the time of marriage in 17 Hijri. Umme Kalthum binte Ali (as) 11 / 12 years of age in 17 Hijri and hence was baligh –

Asma bint Umays Her first husband was Ja'far ibn Abu Talib, also of the Banu Hashim tribe. She had children with Ja'far and several years before Hijra, she participated in the Migration to Abbysian with her husband and a group of Muslims. After Ja'fars death she married Abu Bakr (after the hijra). When Abu Bakr died, Asma married Ali ibn Abu Talib(as).

Umm Kulthum bint Abi Bakr born in 13 H.E. was under guardianship of Ali(as)

[Shakir 4:23] Forbidden to you are your mothers and your daughters and your sisters and your paternal aunts and your maternal aunts and brothers' daughters and sisters' daughters and your mothers that have suckled you and your foster-sisters and mothers of your wives and your step-daughters who are in your guardianship, (born) of your wives to whom you have gone in, but if you have not gone in to them, there is no blame on you (in marrying them), and the wives of your sons who are of your own loins and that you should have two sisters together, except what has already passed; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
In the light of verse of holy quran as step daughter are mahram of person.and a person is her guardian.

In the light of verse of holy quran as step daughter is "mehram" of a person.and a person is her guardian.

In the above hadith presented by you it is not clear for whom Umar proposed.

Weather for his biological daughter or step daughter ?

For whom Umar proposed is clear by word of hadith “ She is child”

so she must be Umm Kulthum Binte Abu Bakra who was child at time of proposal of marriage.

You have also played with translation to prove your point.. see here correct translation.

Hishaam bin Saalim from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) he said: “When he (`Umar) address (proposed) to him (`Alee). Ameer Al-Mu’mineen (عليه السلام) said to him “She is a child”. He said: So he (`Umar) met Al-`Abbaas and he said to him: “What is wrong with me? Is there a problem with me?” He (Abbaas) said: “And what is the matter?” He (Umar) said: “I addressed (proposed) before your brother's son (nephew), and he denied me. I swear by Allaah, I will fill the zamzam, leave no honor for you without being destroyed. I will bring two witnesses upon him and (prove) he (is guilty) of theft, and I will cut his right (hand)!” Then Al-`Abbaas went to him (Imaam `Alee) and gave him the news (of what happened). And he (Abbaas) asked him (`Alee) to put the matter to him (Abbaas). And he (`Alee) agreed.”


[Shakir 2:42] And do not mix up the truth with the falsehood, nor hide the truth while you know (it).

Edited by elite, 05 February 2011 - 11:57 PM.


#18 shahid123

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 04:37 AM

The Marriage of `Umar ibn al-Khattab with Umm Kulthum bint `Ali Allah be well-pleased with all of them.

BY: Shaykh Gibril Haddad

The marriage of `Umar with Umm Kulthum al-Hashimiyya (6-49) the daughter of `Ali and Fatima took place on the year 17 of the Hijra. `Ali gave her away to `Umar upon his request although he was afraid at first that `Umar might not accept her due to her youth and because he wished her to marry one of her cousins among the sons of Ja`far ibn Abi Talib. But `Umar said, 'Marry her to me for I swear I have toward her more dedication to excellent companionship than any man on the face of the earth.'

`Umar gave her a dowry of 40,000 dirhams in honor of her lineage to the Messenger of Allah, upon him blessings and peace.

He came to the Muhajirun among the Companions as they sat between the Grave and the Pulpit 'their usual place for meeting `Umar to discuss news: 'Felicitate this newlywed!' Then he told them he had married `Ali's daughter Umm Kulthum and said: 'I heard the Messenger of Allah say, upon him blessings and peace: 'Every lineage and means will be severed on the Day of Judgment except my lineage and my means.' I have kept company with him and wished to add this also.' Later he again said, on the pulpit: 'Do not disparage me [for marrying a young girl], for I heard the Prophet say, upon him blessings and peace: 'On the Judgment Day every means will be cut off and every lineage severed except my lineage.''

It is well-known that our liege-lord `Umar ibn al-Khattab, Allah be well-pleased with him, had a particular veneration for the Prophetic Household (Ahl al-Bayt) as illustrated by the following additional reports:

Ibn Sa`d narrated from al-Sha`bi and al-Hasan that al-`Abbas had some need of `Umar one day and said to him:
"Commander of the Believers, suppose the uncle of Musa, upon him peace, came to you as a Muslim, how would you treat him?" He replied, "I swear by Allah that I would treat him well!" Al-`Abbas said, "Well, I am the uncle of Muhammad the Prophet - upon him and his House blessings and peace!" `Umar said, "Abu al-Fadl, and what do you suppose? By Allah, your father [`Abd al-Muttalib] is certainly dearer to me than my own father!" He said, "By Allah?" `Umar said, "By Allah, yes! Because I know that he [`Abd al-Muttalib] is dearer to the Messenger of Allah than my own father, therefore I prefer the love of the
Messenger of Allah to my love."

A man disparaged `Ali ibn Abi Talib in the presence of `Umar whereupon the latter said: "Do you know the dweller of this grave? He is Muhammad ibn `Abd Allah ibn `Abd al-Muttalib. And `Ali is the son of Abu Talib ibn `Abd al-Muttalib. Therefore, do not mention `Ali except in a good way for if you dislike him you will harm this one in his grave." Narrated by Ahmad with a good chain in Fada'il al-Sahaba (2: 641 #1089).

After `Umar saw al-Husayn ibn `Ali ibn Abi Talib waiting at his door he said to him: "You are more deserving of permission to enter than [my son] `Abd Allah ibn `Umar! You see the goodness that was placed on our head; [therefore] first Allah then you [the Prophetic Household]" and he placed his hand on his head as he spoke. Narrated by Ibn Sa`d, Ibn Rahuyah, and al-Khatib.

`Umar distributed garments to the Companions but found nothing appropriate for al-Hasan and al-Husayn so he sent a message to Yemen and had a kiswa sent, which he offered them. Then he said, 'Now I am content.' Narrated by Ibn al-Jawzi in Manaqib `Umar (p. 97).
Umm Kulthum bore `Umar Zayd al-Akbar, known as Ibn al-Khalifatayn (= 'Son of the Two Caliphs' i.e. `Umar and `Ali) who became renowned for his great beauty, and a daughter, Ruqayya.

After `Umar died she remarried, upon `Ali's order, with `Awn ibn Ja`far ibn Abi Talib. When `Awn died `Ali remarried her with `Awn's brother Muhammad ibn Ja`far. Ibn Sa`d and al-Daraqutni claim that when the latter also died young, she remarried with his brother `Abd Allah ibn Ja`far who was widowed of her sister Zaynab bint `Ali 'an anachronism since Zaynab outlived Umm Kulthum and was present at Karbala' where her two sons from `Abd Allah, Muhammad and `Awn [both named after their uncles], were killed.

Zayd al-Akbar died a young man, childless, from a stone throw in the time of Mu`awiya. Umm Kulthum died at the same time and Sa`id ibn al-`As ibn Sa`id or Ibn `Umar prayed over them, Allah have mercy on them.

Sources:

Ibn al-Jarud, al-Muntaqa [an entirely sahih book] (p. 142);
al-Zubayr ibn Bakkar, al-Muntakhab min Azwaj al-Nabi SallAllahu `alayhi wa-Sallam (p. 30-31);
al-Dulabi, al-Dhurriyat al-Tahira (p. 62);
Ibn Sa`d, Tabaqat (8:337-340=8:463-464);
al-Siyar wal-Maghazi (p. 248);
Tarikh al-Ya`qubi (2:260);
Ibn Shabba's Tarikh al-Madina (2:654);
Nasab Quraysh (p. 352);
`Abd al-Razzaq, Musannaf (3:465);
al-Nasa'i, Sunan (4:71) and Sunan Kubra (1:641);
al-Bukhari, Tarikh al-Saghir (1:102);
Ibn Qutayba, Ma`arif (p. 107, 122);
al-Tabari, Tarikh (4:199 and 5:335);
al-Daraqutni, Sunan (2:79);
al-Bayhaqi, Sunan Kubra (4:33);
Ibn `Abd al-Barr, Isti`ab (4:490-491);
al-Nawawi, Tahdhib al-Asma' wal-Lughat (2:267 #1219);
al-Dhahabi, Siyar A`lam al-Nubala' (Dar al-Fikr ed. 5:22-24) and Tarikh al-Islam (4:58-59, 4:137-139, 4:227, 5:21);
al-Dimyati, Nisa' al-Rasul (p. 128);
Ibn Hajar, Isaba (4:492 #1481);
Ibn al-Athir, Usd al-Ghaba (7:387-388) and al-Kamil fi al-Tarikh (3:54, 4:12);
al-Suyuti, al-Hawi lil-Fatawa (2:179);



KEEP YOUR HADITHS WITH YOURSELVES & NEVER TRY TO MATCH PROPHET(SAWW) & HIS FAMILY WITH CAMEL SELLERS

#19 AbuIthnayn

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 06:58 AM

An analysis of the Ahl'ul Sunnah traditions makes it clear that the Umme Kalthum being described was a child this Umme Kalthum could not have been more than five years of age, at the time of marriage in 17 Hijri. Umme Kalthum binte Ali (as) 11 / 12 years of age in 17 Hijri and hence was baligh


So you going to throw away your own hadiths because you can never imagine that Ali (ra) would give his daughter to Umar (ra), well guess what he did & those hadiths PROVE it with undoubtful isnad!. The Arabs would Bethroth girls of young age & would actually marry them when they became baligh, is that too hard for you to understand? Now your going to tell me that the Prophet (SAW) wasnt bethrothed Aisha (ra) by Abu Bakr (ra) because she was too young!!!

Asma bint Umays Her first husband was Ja'far ibn Abu Talib, also of the Banu Hashim tribe. She had children with Ja'far and several years before Hijra, she participated in the Migration to Abbysian with her husband and a group of Muslims. After Ja'fars death she married Abu Bakr (after the hijra). When Abu Bakr died, Asma married Ali ibn Abu Talib(as).
Umm Kulthum bint Abi Bakr born in 13 H.E. was under guardianship of Ali(as)


Yes that it true, but your forgetting one thing, the narration states DAUGHTER!!!! Not Step daughter!! Why is it so hard for you to understand this?

[Shakir 4:23] Forbidden to you are your mothers and your daughters and your sisters and your paternal aunts and your maternal aunts and brothers' daughters and sisters' daughters and your mothers that have suckled you and your foster-sisters and mothers of your wives and your step-daughters who are in your guardianship, (born) of your wives to whom you have gone in, but if you have not gone in to them, there is no blame on you (in marrying them), and the wives of your sons who are of your own loins and that you should have two sisters together, except what has already passed; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
In the light of verse of holy quran as step daughter are mahram of person.and a person is her guardian.

In the light of verse of holy quran as step daughter is "mehram" of a person.and a person is her guardian.

In the above hadith presented by you it is not clear for whom Umar proposed.


Its is actually crystal clear, whether you look at it "logically" or rationally, the hadith mentions DAUGHTER!

Weather for his biological daughter or step daughter ?

Again, it mentions DAUGHTER, even your own hadith books acknowledge this FACT, so why are you trying to brush it under the carpet? Simple FACT, Ali (ra) did allow for the marriage to take place & it was consumated when Umm Khulthoom Bint Ali was Baligh!

You have also played with translation to prove your point.. see here correct translation


I see you have glossed over the end of the hadith!!! Which clearly mentions "He asked Ali to put the matter in his hands, and Ali complied" Which is CONSENT!!!

JZ

#20 Dead-Man

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 11:28 AM

Elite before I embarrass you by quoting from your own hadith books, I think you need to come to the forum will a clear understanding that if a Hadith from your own deviant belief confirms the marriage then you MUST accept it even if it goes against your own "logic"

Even though I totally dispute what Umar actually said in the below hadith, the subject matter actually acknowledges that the marriage happened!!

Muhammad ibn Abi Umay Hisham ibn Salim, who narrates that Imam Jafar as-Sadiq said: When [Umar] proposed to Amir al-Mu'minin, he said, She is a child, then he [Umar] met Abbas and asked him, What is wrong with me? Is there a problem with me? Abbas asked, Why? Umar replied, I asked your nephew for his daughter hand in marriage, and he rejected me. Oh, I swear by Allah, I will fill the well of Zamzam with earth, I will destroy every honor that you have, and I will set up two witnesses to testify that he stole, that I may cut off his right hand. Abbas thereupon came to Ali and informed him of what had transpired. He asked Ali to put the matter in his hands, and Ali complied.

(Furoo al-Kafi, vol.6, p.117)

The above narration came down to al-Kulayni through Ali ibn Ibrahim, from his father, from Ibn Abi Umayr. Which are ALL reliable in Shia Isnad (lets see you dig your way out of this one)

Humayd ibn Ziyadâ bn Samaâ Muhammad ibn Ziyadâ Abdullah ibn Sinanâ Muawiyyah ibn Ammar Imam Jafar as-Sadiq:I asked him about a woman whose husband died: Should she spend her iddah in her house, or where she wants to? He [the Imam] replied, Where she wants to. When Umar died, Ali came and took Umm Kulthoom to his house.

(Furoo al-Kafi, vol.6, p.117)

Al-Kulayni reports this narration from his teacher Humayd ibn Ziyad. This Humayd is graded by the Shia rijal critics as alim jalil al-qadr, wasiâ al-âilm, kathir at-tasnif, thiqaha a learned scholar of great status, wide knowledge, a prolific author, reliable). (Jamiâ ar-Ruwat, vol.1, p.284)

Ibn Samaah is properly known as al-Hasan ibn Muhammad ibn Samaah. He was one of the foremost Shia fuqaha of Kufa, and is described as kathir al-hadith, faqihun thiqah (a prolific narrator of Hadith, a jurist, reliable). (Jamiâ ar-Ruwat, vol.1, p.225)

Muhammad ibn Ziyad is properly known as Muhammad ibn al-Hasan ibn Ziyad al-Attar. He is described as reliable. (Jamiâ ar-Ruwat, vol.2, p.91)

Abdullah ibn Sinan was an eminent Imami Shia of Kufa about whom it is stated: thiqatun min ashabina, la yuta anu alayhi fi shayâ (one of our reliable associates against whom no criticism whatsoever can be levelled). (Jamiâ ar-Ruwat, vol.1, p.487)

Muawiyyah ibn Ammar was an eminent and leading Shia narrator of Kufa who narrates from Imam Jafar as-Sadiq. His Shia biographers have documented about him that he was wajhan min ashabina muqaddaman, kabir ash-shan, azim al-mahall, thiqah (a leading figure amongst our associates, pre-eminent, great in status, exalted in position, reliable). (Jamiâ ar-Ruwat, vol.2, p.239)

Now lets see you dig your "Taqqiyah" way out of this then!!!

JZ



Sallam ALliekom

i would copy & Paste the refutations as you copied and pasted from whatever anti-shia website, but i'll just give the links

& what you pasted above already been refuted by the link Elite given you

anyway, here you go

http://www.answering...m/en/chap10.php

http://www.answering...um/en/chap8.php

http://www.answering...um/en/chap9.php

#21 Righteous

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 10:34 AM

so umar was deemed not good enough for the daughter of Prophet (SAW) and yet he was good enough for the grand daughter.

#22 elite

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 12:32 PM

So you going to throw away your own hadiths because you can never imagine that Ali (ra) would give his daughter to Umar (ra), well guess what he did & those hadiths PROVE it with undoubtful isnad!. The Arabs would Bethroth girls of young age & would actually marry them when they became baligh, is that too hard for you to understand? Now your going to tell me that the Prophet (SAW) wasnt bethrothed Aisha (ra) by Abu Bakr (ra) because she was too young!!!



Yes that it true, but your forgetting one thing, the narration states DAUGHTER!!!! Not Step daughter!! Why is it so hard for you to understand this?



Its is actually crystal clear, whether you look at it "logically" or rationally, the hadith mentions DAUGHTER!


Again, it mentions DAUGHTER, even your own hadith books acknowledge this FACT, so why are you trying to brush it under the carpet? Simple FACT, Ali (ra) did allow for the marriage to take place & it was consumated when Umm Khulthoom Bint Ali was Baligh!



I see you have glossed over the end of the hadith!!! Which clearly mentions "He asked Ali to put the matter in his hands, and Ali complied" Which is CONSENT!!!

JZ


If you are true then show us word "His daughter" in arabic text
"Umar replied, I asked your nephew for his daughter hand in marriage," word of hadith presented by you in post #16 bring arabic text for these words

#23 AbuIthnayn

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 12:45 PM

If you are true then show us word "His daughter" in arabic text
"Umar replied, I asked your nephew for his daughter hand in marriage," word of hadith presented by you in post #16 bring arabic text for these words

Sorry, not my job to do that! If you doubt your own hadith then ask someone who you refer to for the Arabic!

Sallam ALliekom

i would copy & Paste the refutations as you copied and pasted from whatever anti-shia website, but i'll just give the links

& what you pasted above already been refuted by the link Elite given you

anyway, here you go

http://www.answering...m/en/chap10.php

http://www.answering...um/en/chap8.php

http://www.answering...um/en/chap9.php


LOL,Already been refuted? Dont think so.. is that the best you can do? I suggest some more research is done before you post simle answers that are not worthy to be read!

#24 Dead-Man

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 01:09 PM

like i said, i wont copy n paste, links already provided and pretty much been refuted ;)

and by ur reply u havnt read what's in the links because to you they're "Not worthy to read"

and to me they pretty much distroyed your "Claim" .. sorry .. the Anti-shia website "claim" which you copied and pasted from .. and that's your best to copy & Paste? .. so i just provided a website that refutes ur anti-shia website claims, instead of copying & Pasting an article or hadiths "Which is seemingly your best" by just copying the links to refutation

have a good day :)

Edited by Dead-Man, 07 February 2011 - 01:38 PM.


#25 AbuIthnayn

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 06:25 PM

like i said, i wont copy n paste, links already provided and pretty much been refuted ;)

and by ur reply u havnt read what's in the links because to you they're "Not worthy to read"

and to me they pretty much distroyed your "Claim" .. sorry .. the Anti-shia website "claim" which you copied and pasted from .. and that's your best to copy & Paste? .. so i just provided a website that refutes ur anti-shia website claims, instead of copying & Pasting an article or hadiths "Which is seemingly your best" by just copying the links to refutation

have a good day :)


Its funny when making such bogus claims you will refer to the same narrators, but when it backfires on you, the narrators become "weak" for your information Al-Majlisi & Al-Qummee are the most recognised narrators in the Shi'ite hadith!!! Without these two individuals all your narrations fall down by the wayside!

JZ



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