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Abu Bakr...Al-Sadeek?


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#26 mujpie

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 05:41 PM

IN THAT CASE THEN WHY DID ALI (R.A.) GIVE ALLEGAINCE TO THE FIRST THREE CALIPHS THEN IF IT WAS SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO WRONG!!!!!WHY DID HE FORSAKE HIS RIGHT.....HE WOULD HAVE BEEN THE LAST PERSON ON EARTH TO DO SO!!!!

#27 Ali Zaki

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 05:51 PM

IN THAT CASE THEN WHY DID ALI (R.A.) GIVE ALLEGAINCE TO THE FIRST THREE CALIPHS THEN IF IT WAS SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO WRONG!!!!!WHY DID HE FORSAKE HIS RIGHT.....HE WOULD HAVE BEEN THE LAST PERSON ON EARTH TO DO SO!!!!

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Delivered by Imam Ali (a.s.) when the Holy Prophet died and `Abbas ibn `Abd al-Muttalib and Abu Sufyan ibn Harb offered to pay allegiance to Amir al-mu'minin for the Caliphate

" O' People! [1]

Steer clear through the waves of mischief by boats of deliverance, turn away from the path of dissension and put off the crowns of pride. Prosperous is one who rises with wings (i.e. when he has power) or else he remains peaceful and others enjoy ease. It (i.e. the aspiration for Caliphate) is like turbid water or like a morsel that would suffocate the person who swallows it. One who plucks fruits before ripening is like one who cultivated in another's field.

If I speak out they would call me greedy towards power but if I keep quiet they would say I was afraid of death. It is a pity that after all the ups and downs (I have been through). By Allah the son of Abu Talib [2] is more familiar with death than an infant with the breast of its mother. I have hidden knowledge, if I disclose it you will start trembling like ropes in deep wells."

" Amir al-mu'minin's quietness (during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman) was indicative of his high policy and far-sightedness, because if in those circumstances Medina had become the centre of war its fire would have engulfed the whole of Arabia in its flames. The discord and scuffle that had already begun among muhajirun (those who came from Mecca) and ansar (the locals of Medina) would have increased to maximum, the wire-pullings of the hypocrites would have had full play, and Islam's ship would have been caught in such a whirlpool that its balancing would have been difficult; Amir al-mu'minin suffered trouble and tribulations but did not raise his hands. History is witness that during his life at Mecca the Prophet suffered all sorts of troubles but he was not prepared to clash or struggle by abandoning patience and endurance, because he realised that if war took place at that stage the way for Islam's growth and fruition would be closed. Of course, when he had collected supporters and helpers enough to suppress the flood of unbelief and curb the disturbances, he rose to face the enemy. "

From the footnotes to Sermon #5 of Nagul Balagha

SOURCE: http://al-islam.org/nahj/

#28 newnew

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 05:58 PM

So was Caliphate important or not?
If not, why do you shiahs keep arguing about it and hate Abu Bakr for "steeling it". Even if you suppose that he stole it, that means he only stole a "turbid water or like a morsel that would suffocate the person who swallows it". So he didn;t steel much now did he? You cant even call it steeling can you?

Also, Shiahs claim the 12 Caliphs in Sunni books are the same as the 12 Imams...but seems like Ali hated Caliphate SO Much... so caliphate is the same as Imamate or not? If they are the same, but there were "two kinds of caliphate", one which is important and cannot be taken away, and another that is not important at all and is like "turbid water or like a morsel that would suffocate the person who swallows it", then that would mean Abu Bakr, Omar and Uthman did nothing wrong, even according to Shiah belief!!!

#29 Ali Zaki

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 06:13 PM

So was Caliphate important or not?
If not, why do you shiahs keep arguing about it and hate Abu Bakr for "steeling it". Even if you suppose that he stole it, that means he only stole a "turbid water or like a morsel that would suffocate the person who swallows it". So he didn;t steel much now did he? You cant even call it steeling can you?

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(salam)

From the perspective of Imam Ali (a.s.), this was the value of the Caliphate. The idea of Caliphate, however, was just a bidah (innovation), and hence had little value.

The value of Imamate is a different matter. The institution that was established for the leadership of the Muslim Umma by the Prophet Mohammad (a.s.) was Imamate, however, the majority of Muslims (at the time) did not understand this and thought that the leaders after the Prophet (a.s.) should just be political rulers.

This misunderstanding (that leadership of the Muslims was a strictly political institution) is what lead (ultimately) to the leadership of Muslims being taken by tyrants, rather then Imams.

#30 mujpie

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 06:39 PM

To which I say then, why do Shias now harass Sunnis as well as the companions of the Prophet (saw) - if Ali (ra) saw fit to keep silent and offer allegiance, then why do Shias have trouble...are u more spiritual and moral and ethical than Ali (ra)???????


Delivered by Imam Ali (a.s.) when the Holy Prophet died and `Abbas ibn `Abd al-Muttalib and Abu Sufyan ibn Harb offered to pay allegiance to Amir al-mu'minin for the Caliphate

" O' People! [1]

Steer clear through the waves of mischief by boats of deliverance, turn away from the path of dissension and put off the crowns of pride. Prosperous is one who rises with wings (i.e. when he has power) or else he remains peaceful and others enjoy ease. It (i.e. the aspiration for Caliphate) is like turbid water or like a morsel that would suffocate the person who swallows it. One who plucks fruits before ripening is like one who cultivated in another's field.

If I speak out they would call me greedy towards power but if I keep quiet they would say I was afraid of death. It is a pity that after all the ups and downs (I have been through). By Allah the son of Abu Talib [2] is more familiar with death than an infant with the breast of its mother. I have hidden knowledge, if I disclose it you will start trembling like ropes in deep wells."

" Amir al-mu'minin's quietness (during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman) was indicative of his high policy and far-sightedness, because if in those circumstances Medina had become the centre of war its fire would have engulfed the whole of Arabia in its flames. The discord and scuffle that had already begun among muhajirun (those who came from Mecca) and ansar (the locals of Medina) would have increased to maximum, the wire-pullings of the hypocrites would have had full play, and Islam's ship would have been caught in such a whirlpool that its balancing would have been difficult; Amir al-mu'minin suffered trouble and tribulations but did not raise his hands. History is witness that during his life at Mecca the Prophet suffered all sorts of troubles but he was not prepared to clash or struggle by abandoning patience and endurance, because he realised that if war took place at that stage the way for Islam's growth and fruition would be closed. Of course, when he had collected supporters and helpers enough to suppress the flood of unbelief and curb the disturbances, he rose to face the enemy. "

From the footnotes to Sermon #5 of Nagul Balagha

SOURCE: http://al-islam.org/nahj/

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#31 Lover of Ali (AS)

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 06:59 PM

Astaghfirrullah if Imam Ali (as) ever gave bay'at to Abu Bakr! This is a common misconception. In the shia view, Imam ALi (as) was at the grave of the Prophet (saw) when Abu Bakr passed his hand over his. Imam Ali (as) just never spoke out against the caliphate after the martyrdom of Bibi Fatima (as) because in his verbal will (it would have been written had it not been for Umar) he told imam Ali (as) to be patient and not fight.

#32 Il Nino

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 03:01 AM

To which I say then, why do Shias now harass Sunnis as well as the companions of the Prophet (saw) - if Ali ra.gif saw fit to keep silent and offer allegiance, then why do Shias have trouble...are u more spiritual and moral and ethical than Ali ra.gif???????


he didnt want to create any fitnah, ya dig, then, islam was newly conquering places , innit?

times have changed innit?

#33 Abbas

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 11:31 AM

(salam)

Once Imam Jaffar as Sadiq (as) expressed his support to Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar(ra): the wife of Imam Jaffar as Sadiq (ra) asked him about Abu Bakr and Umar. He replied, "I support them".
Then he said to his wife," you should support them also." His wife replied, "So should I say to my creator when I meet Him, that it is your order to support Abu Bakr and Umar."
The truthful Imam Jaffar (ra) replied, " Yes."
- Source: Rawzatul Kafi, vol.8, p.101

Once, Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (as) while sitting with his companions, praised Abu Bakr by calling him the truthful ("as-Siddiq"). One of his companions got astonished by this remark and inquired if he (the Imam) really meant what he said. Upon this Imam al-Baqir replied, "yes Abu Bakr (ra)is the truthful and whoever does not give this attribution to him, then may God make that person(who did not give the attribute) helpless on the day of resurrection" Source: Kashful Ghumamah, vol.2, p.174]
عن عروة بن عبد الله قال : سألت أبا جعفر محمد بن علي عليهما السلام عن حلية السيوف ، فقال : لا بأس به ، قد حلى أبو بكر الصديق سيفه ، قلت : فتقول الصديق ؟ ! قال : فوثب وثبة واستقبل القبلة وقال : نعم الصديق ، نعم الصديق ، نعم الصديق ، فمن لم يقل له الصديق فلا صدق الله له قولا في الدنيا ولا في الآخرة ! ! .

Bihaar al-Anwaar, al-Majlisi, vol. 92 p. 651
Kashful-Ghummah, al-Arbilly, vol. 2, p. 360

"Reported Urwah bin Abdullah: I asked Abu Ja'far Muhammad bin Ali [as] about the swords' ornamentation (i,e with silver pieces), he said: There is no problem with that for Abu Bakr Assiddiq has ornamented his sword (with silver). I said: Did you say Assiddiq? (Urwah) Said: He then jumped, faced the Qiblah and said: Yes Assiddiq, Yes Assiddiq, Yes Assiddiq, he who does not call him Assiddiq, may Allah never testify to any of his words neither in this life nor the hereafter."
Chains for the following Hadith
Muhammad Ibn Ali Ibn Hubaish and Al-Daraqutni narrated from Ibrahim Ibn Shareek Al-Asdi from Uqba Ibn Mukram from Yunus Ibn Bukair from Abi Abdillah Al-Ju'fi from Urwa Ibn Abdillah.

It has also been narrated through another chain:

Abu Hisham Al-Muadib from Ahmad Ibn Muhammad Ibn Musa from Wariza Ibn Muhammad from Sulayman Ibn Abdul Jabar from Abu Nuam from Amr from Jabir from Abu Jafar Muhammad Ibn Ali Ibn Al-Hussain Ibn Abi Talib

Wsalaam wr wb

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The first hadith is nowhere to be found in Rawdhatul-Kafi.

The second hadith is nowhere to be found in Kashf-ul-Ghummah.

The third hadith is in Kashf-ul-Ghummah but not in Bihar-ul-Anwar, but it is a Sunni hadith, as is a lot of hadiths in Kashf-ul-Ghummah. Simply being in this book does not prove anything, and there is no effect for Shias from what is in that book.

I suggest you check the references before you copy paste them here.

Insha'Allah I'll post something more comprehensive soon.

Edited by Abbas, 12 February 2006 - 11:32 AM.


#34 Aliya

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 12:32 PM

thread horribly off topic. Inclusive of topics that are have been discussed many many times on this forum. therefore thread locked.




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