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battle of jamal


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Poll: Battle of Jamal, only sunnis answer plz (34 member(s) have cast votes)

Battle of Jamal, only sunnis answer plz

  1. Imam Ali (AS) was with justice, ayesha was wrong (26 votes [96.30%])

    Percentage of vote: 96.30%

  2. ayesha was with justice, Imam Ali (AS) wasnt astaghfirullah (1 votes [3.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.70%

  3. both were not with justice (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#1 SayedMurtaza

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Posted 07 January 2006 - 03:57 PM

just curious to see how you answer (sunnis).
keep in mind that Rasulullah (pbuh) said: Ali ma3 el 7aq wal 7aq ma3 Ali
which means Ali is with the justice and the justice is with Ali
=> Ali (as) defines justice to make it pretty easy for you...

#2 Fatimaa

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Posted 07 January 2006 - 06:07 PM

(bismillah) (salam)
Imam Ali (as) was with justice, ayesha was wrong.

Wassalam.

#3 Medinaa

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Posted 07 January 2006 - 06:16 PM

Ali ibn Abi Talib was on the right on both Jamal war and the war of Suffayn. Ummul Mo'meneen Ayeshah was tricked and taken advantage of by the Saba'ees who later turned against her as well as Ali!

According to Nahjul Balaqah, Ali ibn Abi Talib said that Muawiyyah was being decieved by a group of people into fighting against Ali. He said these people were the same people who murdered Uthman (the murdrers of Hazrat Uthman are said to be the Saba'ees, or at least, with the help of Saba'ees).

Note: By Saba I dont mean the Tribe of Saba (Sheba) but the followers of Abdullah ibn Saba (who was from Sheba, but not all his followers were)

#4 Fatimaa

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Posted 07 January 2006 - 06:25 PM

just curious to see how you answer (sunnis).
keep in mind that Rasulullah  (pbuh) said: Ali ma3 el 7aq wal 7aq ma3 Ali
which means Ali is with the justice and the justice is with Ali
=> Ali (as) defines justice to make it pretty easy for you...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh sorry brother i didn't read "ONLY SUNNI ANSWERS" & voted :(

Wassalam.

#5 .InshAllah.

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Posted 07 January 2006 - 07:16 PM

(bismillah)

(salam)

Note: By Saba I dont mean the Tribe of Saba (Sheba) but the followers of Abdullah ibn Saba (who was from Sheba, but not all his followers were)


I've heard this a trillion times. Do you have any ahadith showing the involvement of Abdullah ibn Saba in the battle of Siffin and Jamal. If he was such a fitna monger and a causer of wars there should be a plethora of ahadith by many companions and tabieen identifying him as the source of all this fitna. Afterall if it was all his fault then he certainly should be a conspicuous man in history. Hes as big as people like Abu Sufyan, Abu Jahl, Abu Lahab and their likes.

BTW I dont count evidence of his EXISTENCE as proof for what youre claiming. Many extremists exist, but what youre saying is poor old Aysha and all the noble and ever so rightous sahaba were tricked by this man into all out war that led thousands of people to die. Thats a BIG claim and requires ALOT of proof to validate.

ws

Edited by .InshAllah., 08 January 2006 - 05:30 AM.


#6 khalifa

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Posted 07 January 2006 - 09:16 PM

Ali(ra) was correct and our mother Aisha(ra) made a mistake that she admitted to and after that she ceased ALL sorts of political activities until her death. Ali(ra), being the true muslim that he was forgave her and treated her as an umahatal mumineen. I guess Ali's(ra) forgiving her means nothing to you people right??

#7 Theocratic

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 04:51 AM

(salam) Ofcourse Aysha (ra) was wrong. But i doubt her repentence because she continued her attitude and even thrown arrows on the funeral of Hassan bin Ali (as). :angry:

#8 poiuyt

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 05:01 AM

Ali(ra) was correct and our mother Aisha(ra) made a mistake that she admitted to

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



...and this daughter of an alleged convert is supposed to be setting the ummah an example by being our "mother"?

Thank Allah no such person is my mother :lol:

Where was she when the Prophet (pbuh) said: Haq is with Ali (as) and Ali (as) is with Haq (righteousness)?

Was she helping to fabricate hadeeths for later or what?

You yourself have proved that Aisha is not fit to be mother- which is why she was barren and never produced an heir- which is why she was always jealous of Bibi Khadijah- and jealousy leads to the devil- as the Prophet (pbuh) narrated that the horn of the devil would rise from Aisha- didnt he?

Or is that hadeeth a lie too?

If it is- I want you to openly curse all your hadeeth writers- :!!!:

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 02:27 PM

^^they are either going to ignore you or start yelling at you without adressing the issue...

#10 khalifa

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 03:58 PM

...and this daughter of an alleged convert is supposed to be setting the ummah an example by being our "mother"?

Thank Allah no such person is my mother :lol:

Where was she when the Prophet (pbuh) said: Haq is with Ali (as) and Ali (as) is with Haq (righteousness)?

Was she helping to fabricate hadeeths for later or what?

You yourself have proved that Aisha is not fit to be mother- which is why she was barren and never produced an heir- which is why she was always jealous of Bibi Khadijah- and jealousy leads to the devil- as the Prophet (pbuh) narrated that the horn of the devil would rise from Aisha- didnt he?

Or is that hadeeth a lie too?

If it is- I want you to openly curse all your hadeeth writers-  :!!!:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



This is part of what Abdullah Ibn Abbas(ra) said to the khwarij when they abandoned Ali(ra). One of their complaints was that Ali(ra) did not allow them to take war booty.

Ibn Abbas said:

"As for your statement that Ali fought and did not take prisoners of war as the Prophet did, do you really desire to take your "mother" Aishah as a captive and treat her as fair game in the way that captives are treated? If your answer is "Yes", then you have fallen into kufr (disbelief). And if you say that she is not your "mother", you would also have fallen into a state of kufr for Allah, Glorified and Exalted is He, has said: 'The Prophet is closer to the believers than their own selves and his wives are their mothers (entitled to respect and consideration).' (The Quran, Surah al-Ahzab, 34:6). "

So you see, Piouyt,.....according to the cousin of the Holy Prophet(pbuh),..ibn Abbas, son of Al-Abbas and part of Ahlul Bayt,...you are a kafir. And you have displayed your kufr many times before.

#11 Logic

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 06:07 PM

This is part of what Abdullah Ibn Abbas(ra) said to the khwarij when they abandoned Ali(ra). One of their complaints was that Ali(ra) did not allow them to take war booty.

Ibn Abbas said:

"As for your statement that Ali fought and did not take prisoners of war as the Prophet did, do you really desire to  take your "mother" Aishah as a captive and treat her as fair game in the way that captives are treated? If your answer is  "Yes", then you have fallen into kufr (disbelief). And if you say that she is not your "mother", you would also have fallen into  a state of kufr for Allah, Glorified and Exalted is He, has said: 'The Prophet is closer to the believers than their own selves  and his wives are their mothers (entitled to respect and consideration).' (The Quran, Surah al-Ahzab, 34:6). "

So you see, Piouyt,.....according to the cousin of the Holy Prophet(pbuh),..ibn Abbas, son of Al-Abbas and part of Ahlul Bayt,...you are a kafir. And you have displayed your kufr many times before.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Khalifa the above is not to be taken literally cause even Ibn Kathir interprets it differently so according to your pea sized brain deduction he is a kuffar too.. Do me a favour why dont you prove your imaan to us all first before you get busy with takfir.

Now can you provide the refrence of the above, I think i know where you got it from but there are alot of different variables involved and people of your kind love to things out of context. On a final note there are very few people on this site and shiaism that take Ayesha as their mother and you just about passed Takfir on all of them. I will patiently await for you to prove your imaan now. I want it all documented along with your certificates and credentials that authorizes you to pass takfir.

#12 fzilla

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 06:15 PM

i think no sunni believes she was right in that matter, or that hazrat ali was wrong.


and Theo i have heard what u have said many times b4 and some shia friends i have denied to me that was ever the case? so can u provide evidence to that claim so i can look into it and see what our scholars say and why my shia friends denied that?

#13 Ali_Khokhar

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 08:30 PM

(bismillah)
In the quotes of yours placed at the end of your article, you challenged someone to provide you with a hadith from among the Sunni Shahih Sittah bearing witness to the fact that Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman were all Muslims and had accepted Islam with complete sincerity. The following are some of the hadith:

Narrated Amr bin Al-Aas (ra): The Prophet (pbuh) deputed me to lead the army of Dhat-as-Salasil. I came to him and said, "Who is the most beloved person to you?" He (pbuh) said, "Ayesha ". I asked, "Among the men?" He (pbuh) said, "Her father (i.e. Abu Bakr ). I said, "Who then?" He (pbuh) said, "Then Umar bin Al-Khattab ". He (pbuh) then named some other sahabah (Narrated by Al-Muslim and al-Bukhari)

The Prophet (pbuh) would have never given such high praise and loved them so if they had not been Muslims. Some more hadith which prove the same point:

Narrated Abu Said al-Kudhri (ra) : Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said,"While I was sleeping I saw (in a dream), that some people were displayed before me wearing shirts, of which some were reaching breasts only, while others were even shorter than that. And Umar ibn Al-Khattab was displayed before me wearing a long shirt which he was dragging." The people asked,"How did you interpret it, O Allah's Messenger (pbuh) ?" He (pbuh) replied,"It is religion". (Narrated by Al-Muslim and al-Bukhari)

That shows the extent to which Umar (ra) had Islam in his heart.

Narrated Abu Huraira (ra) : While we were in the company of the Prophet (pbuh) , he said, "while I was asleep, (in a dream) I saw myself in paradise (Jannah) and there I beheld a woman making ablution (wudoo) beside a palace. I asked, "To whom does this palace belong?" They said, "Umar bin Al-Khattab" (Narrated by Al-Muslim and al-Bukhari)

This is the beginning of a longer hadith but it clearly shows that Umar (ra) would enter Jannah and his palace is already ready. Remeber, only Muslims can go to Paradise.

Narrated Abu Musa (ra) : While I was with the Prophet (pbuh) in one of the gardens of Al-Madina, a man came and asked me to open the gate. The Prophet (pbuh) said to me, "Open the gate for him and give him the glad tidings that he will enter Paradise," I opened the gate for him and behold! It was Abu Bakr. I informed him (with glad tidings) of what the Prophet (pbuh) had said, and he praised and thanked Allah. Then another man came and asked me to open the gate. The Prophet (pbuh) said to me, "Open the gate for him and give him the glad tidings of entering Paradise," I opened the gate for him and behold! It was Umar. I informed him of what the Prophet (pbuh) had said, and he praised and thanked Allah. Then another man came and asked me to open the gate. The Prophet (pbuh) said to me, "Open the gate for him and give him the glad tidings of entering Paradise with a calamity which will befall him," Behold! It was Uthman. I informed him of what the Prophet (pbuh) had said, and he praised and thanked Allah and said, "It is Allah Whose help I seek." (Narrated by Al-Muslim and al-Bukhari)

Clearly, all three of these great sahabah were indeed Muslims and were promised a place in Jannah

I ask Allah to guide you for he is the best Guider. I ask Allah to forgive you for he is the best Forgiver. I ask Allah to have Mercy on you, for he is the most Merciful. Ameen.

#14 Aliya

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 08:58 PM

^ FYI sunni sources are not proof for shias.

#15 khalifa

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 09:03 PM

^^^^ FYI, Piouyt keeps asking from proofs,....he gave proofs. What now we have to proove everything with al kafi????

#16 Ali_Khokhar

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 10:45 PM

(bismillah)

(salam)

Exactly Khalifa. Poiuyt asked for proofs from the Sunni sources and I gave him convincing and conclusive evidence that Abu Bakr (ra) , Umar (ra) and Uthman (ra) were indeed Muslims. Astgfeerullah, I was shocked when he dared suggest such an accusation against the best of the people after the Prophet (pbuh).

Just use your logic. How could the whole Muslim population of the time, keeping in mind that those people were the best generation of Islam, could have chosen their Khalifas as non-Muslims? What you are saying, Poiuyt, is absurd and begging for Allah's wrath. May He guide and forgive you.

#17 poiuyt

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 01:55 AM

So you see, Piouyt,.....according to the cousin of the Holy Prophet(pbuh),..ibn Abbas, son of Al-Abbas and part of Ahlul Bayt,...you are a kafir. And you have displayed your kufr many times before.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Nice takfir, and evaded all of the facts I posted. :)

You like all bakris, cannot handle that your "mother" Aisha was in the wrong, and you resort to insults.

What to expect from the descendants of people who never converted to Islam anyway.... :lol:

What you are saying, Poiuyt, is absurd and begging for Allah's wrath. May He guide and forgive you.


None of what you posted is a Sahih Sittah Hadeeth, like from Bukhairi etc. So the rest of your post isnt worth replying to. Thanks for trying anyway to prove something that they never were.

Edited by poiuyt, 09 January 2006 - 02:34 AM.


#18 SayedMurtaza

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 03:22 PM

(salam)

if anyone says that abu bakr and omar were considered good muslims and the rightful successors after the Prophet (pbuh) , then you are saying that the prophet is contradicting himself astaghfirullah

1) when abu bakr and omar refused to join the army of osama bin zayd, Rasulullah (pbuh) told them lanatullah on those who refuse to join the army of osama, and later on it shows that they never joined the army of osama,
===> make the conclusion

2) Allah (JJ) and Rasulullah (pbuh) clearly stated in day of Ghadeer (and thousands of other occasions) that Ali (as) is the only successor after Prophet (pbuh)
===> if you take any other person as successor this is kufr

3) Imam Ali is with haaq and haaq is with Ali (as), and dont you ever think that he accepted abu bakr as caliph. read khutba shaqshaqiyya and see what Ali (as) said about the forced khilafa

#19 khalifa

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 03:50 PM

^^^^

Your point #1.

Usama's(ra) army went out during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr(ra). If he was against it he could have cancelled the whole campaign. This is a basic fact of history and your lack of knowledge of this betrays your entire post.

#20 SayedMurtaza

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 04:24 PM

Rasulullah (pbuh) ordered abu bakr and omar to join the army and for the first time he asked Ali (as) not to join the army so that when Rasulullah dies Ali will be the closest to him and those two will be far away and then Ali (as) will be able to easily take khilafa....
what happened was that abu bakr waited for Rasulullah (pbuh) to leave this world, and then he took this chance to grab khilafa so he didnt care about joining usama's army.... instead he made saqeefat bani saad meeting in which they planned to take khilafa by force.....

lanatullah on those who went against your word Rasulullah, and who took the right of Ameerul Momineen

#21 Ali_Khokhar

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 07:23 PM

Murtada Moosawi, just answer this question first. Do you believe in qadr(pre-destined fate)? In other words, that everything has already been written in the Book of Allah and everything that happens is by Allah's will alone?

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 07:26 PM

i dont believe EVERYTHING is written in allahs book, but ofcourse he knows all things!

#23 Aliya

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 07:44 PM

Ali Khokhar, there is a difference between the shia and sunni view on this matter. According to sunnis EVERYTHING that happens is the WILL of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and thus good and bad are already decided (according to shias this takes away the Justice of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì which says mankind has freewill and thus is punished or rewarded based on the choices the person makes). Shias believe, as I alluded to before, that people have freewill that is governed by the WILL of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. So there's a difference between the WILL of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and what Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì ALLOWS to happen that is divergent from what HE wills (for instance, it is Allah's ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì will for people to do good, be pious, etc. but we have the freewill, and HE ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì ALLOWS us to sin if that's the choice we make, though HE ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì does not COMPEL us to sin). I'm sure this has been discussed before, and insha'Allah someone can clarify further, or link to some existing threads, as my time here is running short tonight.

Edited by Aliya, 09 January 2006 - 07:46 PM.


#24 SayedMurtaza

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 09:20 AM

Murtada Moosawi, just answer this question first. Do you believe in qadr(pre-destined fate)? In other words, that everything has already been written in the Book of Allah and everything that happens is by Allah's will alone?


i understand what your trying to get at...
you want to say that since there is qadr, then Allah wanted all this to happen so it was Allah's will that Imam Ali (as) will be oppressed...

why didnt Allah just never let any evil come to this world and let us live in a perfect world where everyone is a muslim? this is because there would be no point for judgement. in other words, all the balaa' that took place with Ahlul Bayt (as) was necessary, because only after they were oppressed and had their rights tooken away, there was a clear line between haaq and baatil...
if none of this oppression took place on Ahlul Bayt (as), Imam after Imam, there would not be a reason for Allah to test us and see if we should beleive or not.
Instead, Allah has given us a brain so that we can use it, and decide whether we should follow Ahlul Bayt (as) or their enemies..... and this is what Allah will judge you for in yawm el qiyaama......
ya ali madad

#25 Zanadine

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Posted 12 January 2006 - 01:17 PM

Ali(ra) was correct and our mother Aisha(ra) made a mistake that she admitted to and after that she ceased ALL sorts of political activities until her death. Ali(ra), being the true muslim that he was forgave her and treated her as an umahatal mumineen. I guess Ali's(ra) forgiving her means nothing to you people right??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Ibn Abbas said, She rode a Camel, she rode a dockey! if she had lived longer, she would have rode an Elephant !!!!

She rode out on a Camel to fight against Imam Ali(S.A) she lost the war in which not less then 40,000 muslim men got killed on both sides. Imam Ali won the battle.

She rode out on a dockey to prevent Imam Hasan getting buried beside the prophet. She claimed it was her house the prophet was buried in and she attacked Imam Hasan's funeral caravan going towards the prophets grave with arrows with her companions.

in her hadiths .. she always brags that she was the only virgin wife of the prophet and therefore she was his favorite. most of her hadiths are all self bragging. she was extremely jealous of prophets wife.. of lady khadija who had died. She was jealous of Khadija, her only daughter fatima and prophet's son in law and cousin Ali. she was like her father abubakr, power hungry! and full of regrets..

she thought the caliphate was her right! since her father abubakr had become calipha.. she perhaps felt that power should come to her.. but she became extremely jealous when Imam Ali (S.A) became Kalipha. She and her gang always wanted to keep ahlulbayt down! oppressed! she could'nt take it .. when ahlulbayt were becoming powerful .. because of hate and jealousy and envy and power hungry.

If She was the favorite wife of the Prophet like she claims, the she is Allah's favorite as well. because whatever is Allah's favorite.. is also Prophet's favorite and whatever is Prophets favorite is also Allah's favorite. Then why did'nt Allah gave her a child from the prophet? also a favorite of Allah committing such a grave mistake of riding out in the battlefield to fight a war... against who? imam Ali who has been the general of the prophet all his life and his successor? how can she make a mistake like that which resulting in not less then 40,000 muslims blood?

Zanadine.



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