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Fatmi, Ismaili or Agha Khani?


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#101 shia imami ismaili muslim

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 02:19 AM

Mehdi SOLDIER SAID:if an imam instructs me to to do zina because he is the imam of the time,while knowing very well that such an act is haram,that man does not fit to be an imam.

----Ur words are quite disturbing and unjust.Our Imam has never and will never INSTRUCT those things which are considered as SIN in the universal EHICAL CODE. You either don’t read my posts or don’t understand the message I want to convey. There are few things in the Islamic ethics, which are universal and remain the same even a thousand years from now. No religion can afford to make them virtue. Gender discrimination, harsh treatment of woman at public places and their work places, bigotry, religious extremism, sectarianism, drug mafia, enmities, attack on each other’s places of worships, neglecting female education, alcoholism, adultery, gun culture, honor killing are the sins which will never be allowed by any religion. These are the things, which our Imam doesn’t want to see in any society. IF you are an honest person, you will notice that all the above evils are relatively rare in ismaili jamaat. WE are an exemplary community and all the honest individual will appreciate these if they are unbiased. WE consider religion as the reformer of the society. IN ismaili philosophy HUMANITARIAN WORK supersede Allah'S WORSHIP. The doctrines and rituals are the mean and not the end in themselves to achieve these virtues.

OUR imam stresses to maintain a balance b/w DEEN & DUNYA.we are not allowed to be so much immersed in religion that we neglect our societal obligation. Similiarly we are enjoined by our IMAM not to forget our soul by being involved in the world. OUR imam has times and again stressed for this.
I would like to quote a farman of OUR HAZAR IMAM;
"Build the edifice of you life wisely. Build upon PRAYER & BROTHERHOOD for they are eternal. AND it is only the life of the soul, which is ETERNAL".

MEHDI SOLDIER SAID:you are pursueing activities that are haram like gambling or opening casinos.

-------Again these accusations are UNFOUNDED to say the least AND as such not worthy to be responded.

#102 Syed Shams H. Naqvi

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 06:46 AM

(bismillah)

(salam) & Ya Ali Madad!

Thanks my dear Ismaili brother. You see, what I had said in my early posts (that instead of answering to the point, you always take the refuge of emotions and try to detrack from the original topic). As a rule, in a debate, after one person has raised some points the other (opponent) has to reply. You have done the same. I have supported my every statement with references (your own books, magazines etc). When you are telling Mehdi Soldier that

You either don’t read my posts or don’t understand the message I want to convey.


in fact you are doing it your self. For example, talking about the above 11 points you have asked me the reference. I hope, at the time of replying, my dear freind, you were keeping your wits about and were in a good state of mind. Those above 11 points were issued by YOUR ISMAILI EXECUTIVE COUNCIL and the addresses with emails, telephones, names of the officials are written. Isnt it my freind? How and What can I provide you more than your own people and your own Literature? You can ask them and your Hazir Imam that why you are unable to reply those 11 points and why, instead of replying you are taking shelters of emotional words?
Principally and morally, first of all you have to answer me these 11 points (your Assas e Deen). Remember that these are the same points what I have seen with my own eyes in your Jammat Khana.
May I humbly ask you one question dear? You claim and I quote:

I repeat,that I have scores of articles targetting your doctrines and imams,but as the follower of Imam-e-zamaan.this does't suit me to malign any religion.I respect your Imams..............


Were you sure what you wanted to say? In this phrase, I am thankful that you are supporting my claims. What do you mean by YOUR IMAMS? If those were our Imams only (Al Hamdo Lillah our Imams are Masoom anil Khata and practical demonstrator of Divine teachings) then from where your Religion has generated? It means you say that you are not from us? This is what I wanted to confirm my brother. The other words (in red from above quote) say MALIGN ANY RELIGION. It means that you are a different religion and Islam is a different religion and according to your Imam´s teachings you have the respect of our RELIGION. Isnt it so?
I clarify one thing my brother, I am not making mockery of your RELIGION, just wanted to say that ISMAILIAT is not an offshoot of Shiaism (until AK-1, yes it may be!) rahter an independent and different religion.
We do respect whatever your Hazir Imam says, but, dont brinb his sayings in the circumpherence of ISLAM.
Another thing my dear brother, by saying that I am propagating Wahabi Theology, you cant divert the attention of all the reader and will not get the sympathies of them. Everyone wants to know the reality and until you are not TO THE POINT in this discussion, you will not get anything than making your RELIGION more unislamic.
I really apologise for my words if you are feeling them insulting. Allah knows that I dont have any such intentions. Just to know the truth. I beg leave with quoting you:

IN ismaili philosophy HUMANITARIAN WORK supersede Allah'S WORSHIP


Read all posts of your brethren, when they are unable to reply logically, they run and take shelter behind the HUMANITARIAN works done by AK-VI. Please come to the point and reply my posts. First of all those 11 points.

May Allah give you wisdom to think, ameen.

Regards,

Ali Ali

Shams

Edited by Syed Shams H. Naqvi, 29 December 2005 - 07:41 AM.


#103 mehdi soldier

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 07:11 AM

Mehdi SOLDIER SAID:if an imam instructs me to to do zina because he is the imam of the time,while knowing very well that such an act is haram,that man does not fit to be an imam.

----Ur words are quite disturbing and unjust.Our Imam has never and will never INSTRUCT those things which are considered as SIN in the universal EHICAL CODE. You either don’t read my posts or don’t understand the message I want to convey. There are few things in the Islamic ethics, which are universal and remain the same even a thousand years from now. No religion can afford to make them virtue. Gender discrimination, harsh treatment of woman at public places and their work places, bigotry, religious extremism, sectarianism, drug mafia, enmities, attack on each other’s places of worships, neglecting female education, alcoholism, adultery, gun culture, honor killing are the sins which will never be allowed by any religion. These are the things, which our Imam doesn’t want to see in any society. IF you are an honest person, you will notice that all the above evils are relatively rare in ismaili jamaat. WE are an exemplary community and all the honest individual will appreciate these if they are unbiased. WE consider religion as the reformer of the society. IN ismaili philosophy HUMANITARIAN WORK supersede Allah'S WORSHIP. The doctrines and rituals are the mean and not the end in themselves to achieve these virtues.

OUR imam stresses to maintain a balance b/w DEEN & DUNYA.we are not allowed to be so much immersed in religion that we neglect our societal obligation. Similiarly we are enjoined by our IMAM not to forget our soul by being involved in the world. OUR imam has times and again stressed for this.
I would like to quote a farman of OUR HAZAR IMAM;
"Build the edifice of you life wisely. Build upon PRAYER & BROTHERHOOD for they are eternal. AND it is only the life of the soul, which is ETERNAL".

MEHDI SOLDIER SAID:you are pursueing activities that are haram like gambling or opening casinos.

-------Again these accusations are UNFOUNDED to say the least AND as such not worthy to be responded.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

what differenciate a muslim from a non believer?

your imam has not told you to do zina but he has told you to give up salat which the quran describes as "innas salat tanha annil fahshaei wal munkar".

dont tell me you recite dua.for your dua to be acceptable in the place of the established and accepted salat,they must be far better.CHANGE FOR THE BETTER.

the balance your beloved imam has instructed you to do is no better than the balance we see in the west and christain countries.its simply a SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE OR THE IMPLEMENTATION OF SECULARISM.you have made islam look like christianity.but islam is not only a religion of believe and you will be "saved" or its not only a religion of prayers and fasting.ITS A WAY OF LIFE.religion dictates every aspect ,which in other words will mean its not religion as in teh english context but deen.whats deen in arabic?deen encompasses bothe the spirirual and the material.so telling us we should not wear hijab because the westerners will laugh at us or because you wont get a job is going outside the pale of islam.

CONCERNING IBADAH,YOU SEPARATED IBADAH AND HUMANITARIAN WORKS!

if your humanitarian works are to have any benefits for you in the hereafter,they must be intended as an act of ibadah.which means merely doing them is not better than ibadah.and in this context or sense makes ibadah more important!

Edited by mehdi soldier, 29 December 2005 - 07:17 AM.


#104 shia imami ismaili muslim

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Posted 30 December 2005 - 03:21 AM

(bismillah)

(salam) & Ya Ali Madad!

Thanks my dear Ismaili brother. You see, what I had said in my early posts (that instead of answering to the point, you always take the refuge of emotions and try to detrack from the original topic). As a rule, in a debate, after one person has raised some points the other (opponent) has to reply. You have done the same. I have supported my every statement with references (your own books, magazines etc). When you are telling Mehdi Soldier that
in fact you are doing it your self. For example, talking about the above 11 points you have asked me the reference. I hope, at the time of replying, my dear freind, you were keeping your wits about and were in a good state of mind. Those above 11 points were issued by YOUR ISMAILI EXECUTIVE COUNCIL and the addresses with emails, telephones, names of the officials are written. Isnt it my freind? How and What can I provide you more than your own people and your own Literature? You can ask them and your Hazir Imam that why you are unable to reply those 11 points and why, instead of replying you are taking shelters of emotional words?
Principally and morally, first of all you have to answer me these 11 points (your Assas e Deen). Remember that these are the same points what I have seen with my own eyes in your Jammat Khana.
May I humbly ask you one question dear? You claim and I quote:
Were you sure what you wanted to say? In this phrase, I am thankful that you are supporting my claims. What do you mean by YOUR IMAMS? If those were our Imams only (Al Hamdo Lillah our Imams are Masoom anil Khata and practical demonstrator of Divine teachings) then from where your Religion has generated? It means you say that you are not from us? This is what I wanted to confirm my brother. The other words (in red from above quote) say MALIGN ANY RELIGION. It means that you are a different religion and Islam is a different religion and according to your Imam´s teachings you have the respect of our RELIGION. Isnt it so?
I clarify one thing my brother, I am not making mockery of your RELIGION, just wanted to say that ISMAILIAT is not an offshoot of Shiaism (until AK-1, yes it may be!) rahter an independent and different religion.
We do respect whatever your Hazir Imam says, but, dont brinb his sayings in the circumpherence of ISLAM.
Another thing my dear brother, by saying that I am propagating Wahabi Theology, you cant divert the attention of all the reader and will not get the sympathies of them. Everyone wants to know the reality and until you are not TO THE POINT in this discussion, you will not get anything than making your RELIGION more unislamic.
I really apologise for my words if you are feeling them insulting. Allah knows that I dont have any such intentions. Just to know the truth. I beg leave with quoting you:
Read all posts of your brethren, when they are unable to reply logically, they run and take shelter behind the HUMANITARIAN works done by AK-VI. Please come to the point and reply my posts. First of all those 11 points.

May Allah give you wisdom to think, ameen.

Regards,

Ali Ali

Shams

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Dear Syed brother

You seem to be An educated person and serious in search for the truth.REMEMBER,If I want to learn the doctrines of atna asari shiism,I must study authentic books and visit Official shii websites.I will never follow a stray post which has come from nowhere.As per the address at the end of the so-called 11 points you are focussing so much I enquired from the Ismaili Tariqua Board,who denied any SUCH official post.I had sent a copy of this to the concerned Official who disclaimed it.

I would brotherly advice you to read Official texts in the net.Everybody can write such controversial article and it is not difficult to put the phone number as there are A FEW dissident Ismailis(I call them KHAARIJITES) who can provide these.As an stauch ISMAILI and follower of IMA-E-WAQT,I catergorically disprove the doctrines presented in the said 11 point article.

YOU SAID:What do you mean by YOUR IMAMS? If those were our Imams only (Al Hamdo Lillah our Imams are Masoom anil Khata and practical demonstrator of Divine teachings) then from where your Religion has generated?

------We follow the first seven IMAMS from ALI(A.S) TILL imam Jafar Sadiq(a.s) from where our line of imamat diverges.So the remainig six imam in the imam musa kazims(r.a) line are not our imams.Our religion has generated from Imam ismaili(a.s) lineage.Hope you got it!!!

I repeat once again:Humanitarian deeds supersede Allah's worship.This is my personal belief.
KHUDA KAY ASHIQ TOA HAIN HAZAAROAN BANU MAY PHERTAY HAIN
MAARAY MAARAY
MAI UUS KAA BANDA BANOON GAA JIS KOA KHUDAA KAY BANDOAN
SAAY PYAR HOGA
------------ Allama Iqbal(r.a)

ALSO visit the following websites to know more on ISMAILISM.These are authentic sources not the STRAY post you are following for your DISCUSSION.

http://visav.phys.uv...if/CyberMuslim/

WWW.IIS.AC.UK(Official)
WWW.AKDN.ORG(Official)
WWW.ISMAILI.NET(non-Official)
WWW.AMAANA.ORG(non-official)


Who or what are the Ismailis?





The last in the line of the Abrahamic family of revealed traditions, Islam emerged in the early decades of the seventh century. Its message, addressed in perpetuity, calls upon a people that are wise, a people of reason, to seek in their daily life, in the rhythm of nature, in the ordering of the universe, in their own selves, in the very diversity of humankind, signs that point to the Creator and Sustainer of all creation, Who alone is worthy of their submission. Revealed to Prophet Muhammad (s.a.s.) in Arabia, its influence spread rapidly and strongly, bringing within its fold, in just over a century after its birth, inhabitants of the lands stretching from the central regions of Asia to the Iberian peninsula in Europe. A major world religion, Islam today counts a quarter of the globe's population among its adherents. Contrary to popular misperceptions, Muslims are not a monolithic mass of people, all marching to the same drum. Within its fundamental unity, Islam has, over the ages, elicited varying responses to its primal message calling upon man to surrender himself to God. These responses, emerging from the unfolding of the timeless message of Islam over time and geography, encompass a vibrant breadth of interpretations, spiritual temperaments, juridical preferences, social and psychological dispositions and political entities, as well as the rich multiplicity of ethnic, cultural, linguistic plurality that human beings are heir to. Shia Ismailism is one such response.





Like all Muslims, the Ismailis affirm the unity of God as the first and foremost article of the faith, followed by that of Divine guidance through God's chosen messengers, of whom Prophet Muhammad was the last. The verbal attestation of the absolute unity and transcendence of God and of His choice of Muhammad as His Messenger constitutes the profession of faith, and the basic creed of all Muslims. Beyond this, the Ismailis maintain, as do all Shia, that while the Revelation ceased at the Prophet's death, the need for spiritual and moral guidance of the community, through an ongoing interpretation of the Islamic message, continued. They assert that the Prophet invested his authority through designation onto Ali, his cousin, the husband of his daughter and only surviving child, Fatima, and his first supporter who had devoutly championed the cause of Islam and had earned the Prophet's trust and admiration. This concept of qualified and rightly guided leadership is rooted, first and foremost, in the Quran and further reinforced by Prophetic traditions, the most prominent of which is the Prophet’s sermon, following his farewell pilgrimage, designating Ali as his successor, and his testament that he was leaving behind him "the two weighty things", namely the Quran and his progeny, for the future guidance of the community.





Throughout their history, the Ismailis have been led by a living Imam, tracing the line of Imamat in hereditary succession from Ali to His Highness Prince Karim Aga Khan, who is the 49th Imam in direct lineal descent from Prophet Muhammad through Ali and Fatima. The Ismailis comprehend Islam through the guidance of the Imam of the time, who is the inheritor of the Prophet's authority, and the trustee of his legacy. The principal function of the Imam is to enable the believers to go beyond the apparent or outward form of the Revelation in search of its spirituality and wisdom. According to the Ismailis, Islam – or submission – in its pristine sense refers to the inner struggle of an individual to engage fully in the journey of this earthly life and yet, with the guidance of the Alid Imam, to rise above its trappings in search of the Divine. The succession of the line of prophecy by that of the Imamat ensures this balance between the exoteric aspect of the faith and its esoteric, spiritual essence. Neither the exoteric nor the esoteric obliterates the other. While the Imam is the path to a believer's inward, spiritual elevation, he is also the authority who makes the outward form of the religion relevant according to the needs of time. The inner, spiritual life in harmony with the exoteric, is a dimension of the faith that finds acceptance among many groups within Islam.



For an Ismaili, the quest for harmony requires the engagement of not only the spirit but also the intellect. Indeed, the human intellect is viewed as a precious Divine gift and a fundamental facet of religion. Its role has never been seen in terms of a confrontation between Revelation and reason. Rooted in the teachings of Imams Ali and Jaffer as-Sadiq, the Ismailis have historically emphasized the complementarity between Revelation and intellectual reflection – including the study of the Physical Universe – each substantiating the other and both providing different perspectives into the mystery of God’s creation. Indeed, over the course of their 1400-year-old history, the Ismailis and the Ismaili Imams have encouraged natural and philosophical inquiry, and promoted the culture of unhindered scientific thought through generous patronage of luminaries such as the jurist al-Nu'man, the physicist Ibn Haytham, astronomers Ali bin Yunus and al-Tusi, and philosophers Nasir-i-Khusraw and Ibn Sina, to name but a few. Many of these were Ismailis themselves. In keeping with this tradition, exploring the frontiers of knowledge through scientific and other endeavours, and facing up to the challenges of ethics posed by an evolving world is, thus, seen as a requirement of the faith.



Consonant with the role of the intellect is the responsibility of individual conscience, both of which inform the Ismaili tradition of tolerance and celebration of plurality. In fact, the Ismaili belief in the Divine endorsement, as revealed in the Holy Quran, of religiously and culturally plural human societies and of the salvific value of other monotheistic religions, is in stark contrast to, for example, the beliefs of the Wahhabi movement, a contemporary Islamic revivalist school whose exclusivist discourse preaches a monolithic puritanical interpretation of Islam and the establishment of its hegemony over all other interpretations and faiths. Such views not only violate the Quranic injunction “There is no compulsion in religion” but are also tragically incongruent with the needs of the emerging global village in which relations between different peoples are best fostered on the basis of equality and mutual respect.



The Ismailis hold that Muslims are commanded to be a community of the middle path and of balance, a community that avoids extremes and that enjoins good and forbids evil using the best of arguments, a community that eschews compulsion and leaves each to their own faith while encouraging all to vie for goodness. And this imperative of “balance” that forms the web which binds the community to the individual, and the individual to the community. Indeed, an individual’s spiritual and intellectual quest is only meaningful in tandem with an effort to act – here and now – on the moral imperative to do good by offering a helping hand to the vulnerable and those less fortunate, and to promote justice, tolerance and social equity. In the final analysis, it is the nobility of being – of spirit, of mind and of conduct – that endears one in the sight of God.

#105 shia imami ismaili muslim

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Posted 30 December 2005 - 03:45 AM

what differenciate a muslim from a non believer?

your imam has not told you to do zina but he has told you to give up salat which the quran describes as "innas salat tanha annil fahshaei wal munkar".

dont tell me you recite dua.for your dua to be acceptable in the place of the established and accepted salat,they must be far better.CHANGE FOR THE BETTER.

the balance your beloved imam has instructed you to do is no better than the balance we see in the west and christain countries.its simply a SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE OR THE IMPLEMENTATION OF SECULARISM.you have made islam look like christianity.but islam is not only a religion of believe and you will be "saved" or its not only a religion of prayers and fasting.ITS A WAY OF LIFE.religion dictates every aspect ,which in other words will mean its not religion as in teh english context but deen.whats deen in arabic?deen encompasses bothe the spirirual and the material.so telling us we should not wear hijab because the westerners will laugh at us or because you wont get a job is going outside the pale of islam.

CONCERNING IBADAH,YOU SEPARATED IBADAH AND HUMANITARIAN WORKS!

if your humanitarian works are to have any benefits for you in the hereafter,they must be intended as an act of ibadah.which means merely doing them is not better than ibadah.and in this context or sense makes ibadah more important!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


WE have changed it for better.THE established SALAT lost its effect by excessive ROTE.Ibadat means getting rid of HABITS.If the ibadat itself becomes a habit it loses its efficacy.You see,TALIBAN AND OSAMA BIN LADEN used to pray the What you call ESTABLISHED salaat five times a day.THE people who attack on MOSQUE & IMAM BARGAHS in Pakistan never miss the salaat.Muslims are the most backward,wretched community at the moment.DO'T you see the thousands of SOCIAL EVILS presents among the followers of this great religion.HAS the salat been able to ward off these things.REMEMBER,there is no cut and dried salat.Alaah understand even the thought you have in your heart.
READ Jafar Phulwari's Ghulistan-e- Hadith to understand,what is meant by salat and is this performed in a single manner or there are thousand of ways you can adore Allah.tHE SAID AUTHOR ,BY THE WAY IS non-ismaili.

YOU SAID; CONCERNING IBADAH,YOU SEPARATED IBADAH AND HUMANITARIAN WORKS!if your humanitarian works are to have any benefits for you in the hereafter,they must be intended as an act of ibadah.which means merely doing them is not better than ibadah.and in this context or sense makes ibadah more important

----- I have never seperated the two.THESE are complementary to each other.BUT if one asks me,which one is superior MY vote will be to the later.OFCOURSE,humanitarian deed will benefit me in the hereafter.Allah is the GHAFOOR-UR-RAHIM.HE can pardon you for neglecting your prayer BUT not if you have not fulfilled the rights of your fellow human being.Ibadat is a broad term.Humanitarian deeds also count in the ibadat.WE also establish prayers BUT the humanitarian deeds are additional virtues we do for our fellow human being.

#106 Syed Shams H. Naqvi

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Posted 30 December 2005 - 06:23 AM

(bismillah)

(salam) & Ya Ali Madad,

I quote my previous words

This is the problem with all my Ismaili brothers that they dont answer to the point.............



I think I´ll have to start from zero. But promise me my Ismaili brother, you´ll not leave us until you reply us the all queries (whether one is satisfied or not you must reply and TO THE POINT). Done?
Now come to the point. Whatever I am asking, please reply to the point and be specific. If the answer is YES say YES and if NO then deny that YOU DONT BELIEVE IN SUCH PRACTICE! I think this is justice. No?

So here we go.

1. Our 'Kalima' (Testimony) is: "Ashhado an la ilaha il-Allaho wa ashhado anna Muhammad-ur-Rasool-Ullahe wa ashhado anna Ameer-ul-Momineen Ali-Ullah (i.e. I testify that there is no god except Allah and I testify that Muhammad is Allah's Messenger and I testify that ALI IS Allah = H.H. The Aga Khan).

TRUE or FALSE? If TRUE, PLEASE JUSTIFY ACCORDING TO THE TEACHINGS OF QURAN, HOLY PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh) AND FIRST 6 IMAMS YOU BELIEVE IN.

2. We need not to perform 'Wudhu' (ablution) because our 'Wudhu' is of heart (i.e. not of action).

TRUE or FALSE? If TRUE, PLEASE JUSTIFY ACCORDING TO THE TEACHINGS OF QURAN, HOLY PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh) AND FIRST 6 IMAMS YOU BELIEVE IN.

3. Instead of 'Namaz' it is mandatory for every Aga Khani to attend the Jamatkhana to chant the 'Dua' (Prayer) three times a day in place of five times' incumbent 'Namaz' (Canonical Prayers). Standing and knealing is not required in our prayers. Nor we need to face Qiblah, we can pray with our face in any direction for which it is very important to bring the Hazir Imam (H.H. The Aga Khan) in our perception in the prayers. (We enclose herewith the prayer book which please read and also give to other spiritual brethren).

TRUE or FALSE? If TRUE, PLEASE JUSTIFY ACCORDING TO THE TEACHINGS OF QURAN, HOLY PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh) AND FIRST 6 IMAMS YOU BELIEVE IN.

4. Fast (Roza) is fundamentally of eye, ear and tongue. It cannot be broken by eating and drinking. Our 'Roza' (Fast) is for one-and-a-quarter 'Pahar' (about 4-1/2 hours) which is broken at 10.00 A.M. and that too is optional for the 'Momin' (believer) otherwise fast is not incumbent. Of course, we keep fast on the first day of the month whenever it happens to fall on Friday through sighting of the moon in the whole year.

TRUE or FALSE? If TRUE, PLEASE JUSTIFY ACCORDING TO THE TEACHINGS OF QURAN, HOLY PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh) AND FIRST 6 IMAMS YOU BELIEVE IN.

5. In place of Zakat we pay two annas per rupee ("Dasond") in the Ismaili Jamatkhana considering it mandatory.

TRUE or FALSE? If TRUE, PLEASE JUSTIFY ACCORDING TO THE TEACHINGS OF QURAN, HOLY PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh) AND FIRST 6 IMAMS YOU BELIEVE IN.

6. Our Hajj (Pilgrimage) is the vision (sighting) of Hazir Imam {(H.H. The Aga Khan) [(that is because Hazir Imam (H.H. The Aga Khan is the only incarnation of the God on the earth)]}. Rather we have with us speaking/talking Quran, that is Hazir Imam (H.H. The Aga Khan) who is present, but the Musalmans (Muslims) have got merely a void Book i.e. Quran.

TRUE or FALSE? If TRUE, PLEASE JUSTIFY ACCORDING TO THE TEACHINGS OF QURAN, HOLY PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh) AND FIRST 6 IMAMS YOU BELIEVE IN.

7. Mukhi Saheb dissipate our sins for (the period from) morning to evening by sprinkling drops (of water"i.e. Chantta"). If any person amongst us cannot attend the Ismaili Jamatkhana every day, he can get his sins atoned by getting the drops spinkled (on him) by Mukhi and by drinking 'GHATPAT' (holy water) on Fridays against payment of money in the Ismaili Jamatkhana, and if anyone cannot attend Ismaili Jamatkhana on Fridays he can get the sins of or the whole month condoned by means of the said ceremonies on the night the moon is sighted, against payment of money.

TRUE or FALSE? If TRUE, PLEASE JUSTIFY ACCORDING TO THE TEACHINGS OF QURAN, HOLY PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh) AND FIRST 6 IMAMS YOU BELIEVE IN.
(Remember that I am eye witness to this process and hope that you´ll not call me kharji)

8. The mode of our worship is:- The Hazir Imam (H.H. The Aga Khan) gives us a 'Word'/ISM-E-AZAM for which we pay Rs.75/- the worship whereof we perform in the later past of the night. For atonement of worships for 5 years we pay Rs.500/-, for 12 years Rs.1,200/- and for Life Membership (to get the worships for the whole life pardoned) we pay Rs.5000/- in the Jamatkhanas. NOORANI: To obtain the 'noor' (light) of Hazir Imam (H.H. The Aga Khan) we pay Rs.7,000/- in the Jamatkhanas, whence we got the 'Noor' of Hazir Imam (H.H. The Aga Khan). FIDAYEEN: To get ourselves pardoned on the Day of Judgement (Qiyamat) by Hazir Imam (H.H. The Aga Khan) i.e. (linked) towards the expenses (to be incurred) for getting our 'Noor' linked with that of the Hazir Imam (H.H. The Aga Khan) we pay Rs.25,000/- in the Ismaili Jamatkhana. NANDI: (Auction) We call charity as 'Nandi' (Auction) The best dishes prepared in our homes, clothes of finest kind and ornaments we contribute as 'Nandi' (Auction) are auctioned by the Ismaili Jamatkhana people and the proceeds are deposited in the Ismaili Jamatkhanas.

TRUE or FALSE? If TRUE, PLEASE JUSTIFY ACCORDING TO THE TEACHINGS OF QURAN, HOLY PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh) AND FIRST 6 IMAMS YOU BELIEVE IN.

9. Our religion is centuries old. No one has criticized it till this date. Had our religion been untrue it should have come to an end long ago. Now, if the Musalmans (Muslims) or their Ulemas (Religious Scholars) see any flaw in our religion or if they have any objection, why do not they seek explanation from our office bearers of the H.R.H. Prince Aga Khan Federal Council for Pakistan? The Ulemas (Religious Scholars) of the Musalmans (Muslims) also criticize but why they hesitate in seeking explanation from our Hazir Imam (H.H. The Aga Khan)? Are they afraid of our Hazir Imam (H.H. The Aga Khan)? For centuries the Ulemas (Religious Scholars) of the Musalmans (Muslims) have never criticized our Ismaili religion then from where have the Ulemas (Religious Scholars) of the fifteenth century awaken to criticize us. During every period, we have enjoyed the support of the Government of the time. Then this is the very fact of the genuineness of our Ismaili religion.

TRUE or FALSE? I request attention of all the readers of the forum on the above quoted point number 9 (the words in red. My Ismaili brother has also uttered the same words "OUR/YOUR RELIGION").


At the same time, I request to all my brothers and sisters to call the persons who issued the above official statement and know yourself that whether the above statement is really issued by them or not or that those persons really existed or not.
My Dearest Ismaili brother, I am thankful for your admiration, but, I am a not a learned person. I am a humble seeker of knowledge and truth. I´ll touch your feet as my Rahber (guide) if you PROVE the truth within the circle of Islam.
Now, I am sure that you´ll go systematically, logically and rationally. You´ll reply me straight and to the point instead of quoting me your humanitarian works and telling that my words are PRO WAHABI.
I pray for your goodness and beg Allah to show us the Sirat e Mustaqeem, ameen.
Beg leave until Monday.

Regards,

Ali Ali

Shams

#107 mehdi soldier

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Posted 30 December 2005 - 08:34 AM

WE have changed it for better.THE established SALAT lost its effect by excessive ROTE.Ibadat means getting rid of HABITS.If the ibadat itself becomes a habit it loses its efficacy.You see,TALIBAN AND OSAMA BIN LADEN used to pray the What you call ESTABLISHED salaat five times a day.THE people who attack on MOSQUE & IMAM BARGAHS in Pakistan never miss the salaat.Muslims are the most backward,wretched community at the moment.DO'T you see the thousands of SOCIAL EVILS presents among the followers of this great religion.HAS the salat been able to ward off these things.REMEMBER,there is no cut and dried salat.Alaah understand even the thought you have in your heart.
READ Jafar Phulwari's Ghulistan-e- Hadith to understand,what is meant by salat and is this performed in a single manner or there are thousand of ways you can adore Allah.tHE SAID AUTHOR ,BY THE WAY IS non-ismaili.

YOU SAID; CONCERNING IBADAH,YOU SEPARATED IBADAH AND HUMANITARIAN WORKS!if your humanitarian works are to have any benefits for you in the hereafter,they must be intended as an act of ibadah.which means merely doing them is not better than ibadah.and in this context or sense makes ibadah more important
----- I have never seperated the two.THESE are complementary to each other.BUT if one asks me,which one is superior MY vote will be to the later.OFCOURSE,humanitarian deed will benefit me in the hereafter.Allah is the GHAFOOR-UR-RAHIM.HE can pardon you for neglecting your prayer BUT not if you have not fulfilled the rights of your fellow human being.Ibadat is a broad term.Humanitarian deeds also count in the ibadat.WE also establish prayers BUT the humanitarian deeds are additional virtues we do for our fellow human being.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

good!now you have alleged that evils are still present in the society even with the prescribed five daily prayers.

my question is :are these evils present because of the five daily prayers?or are they present because this duty ia carried on? is it the weakness of this duty on the believers that have caused you to change its make up? and how have your dua being more successful? dont you think when the five daily prayers are done correctly and properly ,they are better than your dua?please answer be practically not in theories like you have done.

another ismaili thoery!where did you bring this "fact" that when the prayers become a habit ,it should be shun?can you bring any hadith?

what about WA MA KHALAQTUL JINNA WAL INSA ILLA LI YABUDUN?DONT YOU THINK THIS IS ANOTHER HABIT? SO ALSO IS EVERY DAY RECOGNIZING THE ONENESS OF GOD A HABIT!

another important point i would like to mention is concerning the imamate of imam hassan (as) .why after years has passed you decided to delete his name from the list of imam?i hope you are not going to claim that its the twelvers and zaidis that added his name after years!!!!!but your deletion is again related to one of your theories:the theory of "7".

Edited by mehdi soldier, 30 December 2005 - 08:42 AM.


#108 shia imami ismaili muslim

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Posted 31 December 2005 - 08:52 AM

[quote name='Syed Shams H. Naqvi' date='Dec 30 2005, 05:21 AM']
(bismillah)

(salam) & Ya Ali Madad,



1. Our 'Kalima' (Testimony) is: "Ashhado an la ilaha il-Allaho wa ashhado anna Muhammad-ur-Rasool-Ullahe wa ashhado anna Ameer-ul-Momineen Ali-Ullah (i.e. I testify that there is no god except Allah and I testify that Muhammad is Allah's Messenger and I testify that ALI IS Allah = H.H. The Aga Khan).
------ REFER TO THE the Ismaili constitution. The KALIMA goes like this."There is No god but God(Allah),Muhammad(saw)is His Prophet,and Ali(as) the Commander of Momineen is from Allah i.e Ali is appionted by Allah".YOU can see that the last part of the kalima is fabricated in your post!!

2. We need not to perform 'Wudhu' (ablution) because our 'Wudhu' is of heart (i.e. not of action).

--------Ismailism Being a shia Tariqua stresses for a balance b/w Zahir and Batin(i.e exoteric and esoteric).Therefore it should not surprise anyone when we stress on the tahara of both body and soul.If you do ablution to cleanse your body you must also clean your heart of all sin.Afterall NIAT is what matters in any action,the salat being no exception.YES,the calrity of heart from all bad thought and ideas is more important then the purity of the body,for even the non-beleiver can be more clean then many believers if only the purity of the body matters.

3. Instead of 'Namaz' it is mandatory for every Aga Khani to attend the Jamatkhana to chant the 'Dua' (Prayer) three times a day in place of five times' incumbent 'Namaz' (Canonical Prayers). Standing and knealing is not required in our prayers. Nor we need to face Qiblah, we can pray with our face in any direction for which it is very important to bring the Hazir Imam (H.H. The Aga Khan) in our perception in the prayers. (We enclose herewith the prayer book which please read and also give to other spiritual brethren).

-----What is Namaz? Namaz is an old Pahalvi word that the Persians used for Fire worship and translated in Hindi, it means Pooja. The correct word in Arabic is Salat or Du'a(you will have noticed that these days all Muslims say salat and not namaz because they know what namaz means.
Du'a in Arabic means to Beg or Invoke whereas Salat means Prayer. Can you tell me where I can find a copy of Salah that was recited by the Prophet 1400 years ago? There are 73 sects of Islam and every sect prays differently. Besides, the Prophet has said in ahadith, that it is not important how you pray, it is the niyat that counts.

I am sure your next question will be why not pray five times. Again, Sunnis pray five times, and then there are Shias who pray 5 times and others pray 3 times, including the Ismailis. Some Shias pray fajar, then combine Zohar and Asr prayers, and also combine magharib and Isha prayers. The Quran has prescribed only three regular prayers and we offer them daily at the prescribed times. To support my statement for three prayers, I refer you to the following Quranic Ayats (verses):
(17;79,11: 114; 2: 233; 3;191)
In his book, Ihya Ulum-id-Din, Book 1, page: 148, Ghazzali quotes the Prophet: " The distinction between us and the hypocrites is our presence at morning and night prayers and their absence at these two prayers."
In Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol. IX, page 363, Hadith No. 7368
Abdullah Al-Muzani narrated: The Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) said: <<Perform (an optional) prayer before Sunset prayer>>. (He repeated it thrice) and the third time he said, <<Whoever wants to offer it can do so>>, lest the people should take it AS A SUNNA (tradition).

REGARDING QIBLA;we do't face kaaba in Prayer.Because the Quran doesn't require it! I'd much rather go straight to the Quran for guidance in this matter.
"To God belongs the East and West. Withersoever ye turn, there is the presence Of God. For God is all-pervading, All-Knowing (2. 115)
There is a verse in quran to this effect BUT it has nothing to do with the three mandatory prayers (salats). Let me quote the verse and you judge for yourself!
"From whencesoever thou startest forth, turn thy face in the Direction of the Sacred Mosque. That is, indeed, the truth From thy Lord. And God is not unmindful of what you do" ( 2: 149)

The verse is not stipulated for prayer purposes. It doesn't have the word "salat," which means prayer, anywhere. There is an esoteric meaning to this verse. Let's first examine and demonstrate the literal meaning:

You are expected to turn your face to the Sacred Mosque in Mecca as soon as you start off to go some place. And if you try to observe this verse literally, you could place yourself in a dangerous situation. For example:

Lets say you are driving west to work in the morning. According to the verse, you are supposed to have your face turned to Mecca (east). If you are travelling west doing what the verse says, you will soon trigger multiple accidents and car pile ups; you were looking back while driving forward. You are a hazard to motorists. How impractical!
Another example of literal (exoteric) meaning:
Let's say you are a pedestrian abiding by this verse of the Quran. You are walking west while looking to the east. Is it practical? You are puffing your own life at risk. You could be easily run over! This kind of Islam is impractical and very hard to practise, while the Quran says Islam is very easy to practise.
The verses of the Quran have both exoteric and esoteric meanings and only those, divinely authorized, can interpret them for us. Now let's examine the esoteric meaning:
The Quran has exalted the Kaba in Mecca to a high position because the Sacred Mosque is located, there, and Kaba is exalted because Ali (as), the first divinely appointed Imam and successor to the Prophet was born there, in the Mosque itself. It's a historical fact and accepted by all Muslims, alike. The Kaba is holy because of Ali. Every succeeding Ismaili Imam is Ali and the bearer of Allah's Noor (light). So, esoterically, the above verse wants us to have in our hearts the remembrance of Ali at all times and during whatever activities. we ate engaged in, eg. travelling, walking, driving, flying, etc. Doing this is practical and doesn't get us into trouble with the traffic-law or endanger our lives. Such an esoteric interpretation is possible only when the legitimate Imam of the time is present.
-Allah's Quran is valid for all times and for all places. Can a Muslim who goes to the moon, or any other planet ever turn his face to Mecca at prayer time? If not, will he then not say his prayer?
So, as I said, the Kaba implied here is Ali.

4. Fast (Roza) is fundamentally of eye, ear and tongue. It cannot be broken by eating and drinking. Our 'Roza' (Fast) is for one-and-a-quarter 'Pahar' (about 4-1/2 hours) which is broken at 10.00 A.M. and that too is optional for the 'Momin' (believer) otherwise fast is not incumbent. Of course, we keep fast on the first day of the month whenever it happens to fall on Friday through sighting of the moon in the whole year.

-------Again I shall emphasize that Ismailism is a batini tariqua.We try to understand the underlying meaning of every injuction.Apart from the obligatory fasting of the Month of Ramazaan we have a few additional days of fasting as for as eating and drinking part of fasting is concerned.In actions what you call fasting of eye,ears and tongue,we are enjoined by the Imam to be in a state of fasting 365 days of a year.Fasting is an obligation in Islam and this should be followed with full understanding of its esoteric significance.To get to the bottom of this issue, it is necessary to re-visit the concepts.
“The month of Ramadan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for mankind, and clear proofs of the guidance, and the Criterion (furqan). And whosoever of you is present, let him fast the month, and whosoever of you is sick or on a journey, (let him fast the same) number of other days. Allah desireth for you ease; He desireth not hardship for you; and that ye should complete the period, and that ye should magnify Allah for having guided you, and that peradventure ye may be thankful.”

- Holy Quran 2:185

Note: Three things were revealed in the month of Ramadan. The Holy Quran is only one of these three. What are the other two?

What is fasting and what purpose should it serve?
The Arabic word for ‘fasting’ is Sawm. The word literally means “to abstain”. The word “fasting” or sawm does not automatically imply abstention from food and drink. It only implies some sort of abstention. This is a very important point.
The purpose of fasting is revealed in the following verse of the Holy Quran.
“O ye who believe! Fasting is prescribed to you as it was prescribed to those before you, that ye may learn taqwah.”
- Holy Quran 2:183
Taqwah is usually defined as “piety” or “Fear of God”. It really means that one should go about one’s daily life, every minute of every hour, in a state of “God-consciousness”. In his latest Farmans, our Imam has reminded us about the continuous of submission and remembrance of Allah. This is taqwah.
The entire purpose of fasting is to induce taqwah upon the believer. In other words, we do not fast because Allah needs us to, we fast because WE need it.
It is true that during the time of the Holy Prophet, he and the rest of the Muslims fasted by refraining from food and drink from sunrise to sunset. The majority of Muslims, whether Sunni or Shia, follow the tradition (sunnah) of the Holy Prophet and choose to fast in such a manner.
However, there are different forms of fasting, forms of abstention. The Quran even shows that fasting has different forms other than refraining from food and drink. For example, in the verse quoted below, Allah orders Mary to fast while consuming food and drink but not speaking to anyone.
“So eat and drink and refresh the eye. Then if you see any mortal, say: Surely I have vowed a fast to the Beneficent God, so I shall not speak to any man today.”
- Holy Quran 19:26
In other words, it is entirely possible to fast and yet have food and drink. Refraining from food and drink is NOT the ONLY way or method of fasting.
In today’s world, the traditional fast from food and drink may be observed in form but often gets neglected in spirit. For example, in many countries, more food is actually consumed in the month of Ramadan than any other month. Was this the original intent of the fast?
This sort of thing has happened many times in the past. In the Jewish Scripture, God has revealed through Prophet Isaiah:
"Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife... Is this the kind of fast I have chosen, only a day for a man to humble himself? Is it only for bowing one's head like a reed and for lying on sackcloth and ashes? Is that what you call a fast, a day acceptable to the Lord? Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter - when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood? Then your light will break forth like the dawn, and your healing will quickly appear; then your righteousness will go before you, and the glory of the Lord will be your rear guard."
- Book of Isaiah 58:4-8, Old Testament, Bible
Fasting is prescribed for all Muslims. It cannot be said that Ismailies are exempt from fasting.
Our Tariqah is about using the intellect and the mind. Each Ismaili is free to adopt a form of fasting as they choose. There is nothing against fasting from food and drink for the month. However, this is not the only form of fasting that exists.
For example, there is the fasting from bad deeds, fasting from bad thoughts, fasting of gossip, fasting from lust, fasting from useless talk, etc. All these types of fasting induce God-consciousness or taqwah upon the believer.
Always keep in mind that the “meaning” is the foundation of our belief.
Therefore, it cannot be said that Ismailies are exempt from fasting. On the contrary, regardless of what type of fasting one performs in Ramadan, all Ismailies are obligated to perform a certain form fasting every day of the year. This is shown in one of the Sermons of Imam al-Mustansir bi’llah II quoted below:
“The whole year you must fast, just as zâhiriyân fast one month. The meaning of this fast is austerity; control yourselves, keep yourselves away from bad qualities, evil and indecent actions and devilish acts, so that the mirror of your hearts may be gradually polished. Also know that those thirty days during which the zâhiris fast, the real fast lasts only one single day; they fast thirty days only in order not to miss that single day (of Laylat al-Qadr), and this is also a symbol ("ramz"). And just as they keep on fasting for thirty days in order to fast on that particular day, so you must through the whole of your lives experience difficulties and suffering for the sake of the attainment of the vision of the Creator - you must be patient, persevering in austerities, and keeping your inner self fasting for as long as you live.”
- Mawlana Imam al-Mûstansir bi'llâh II(32ND Ismaili Imam) (Imâmat:1463-1475) in "Pandiyât-i Jawânmardi", p.59.
The decision to fast or not as well as the form of fasting one wishes to pursue is entirely an individual or private matter. There is no need to proclaim or announce the fact that you are fasting to others. This is something between each person and Allah. A person is under no obligation to answer or justify their practice to anyone except Allah. This concept was taught by Prophet Jesus during his mission.
"When you fast, do not look sombre as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, so that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."
- Prophet Jesus, (Gospel of Matthew 6:16-18)
Keep in mind that regardless of which way we choose to fast, we must always keep true to the spirit of the fast. We cannot merely fast from food while still entertaining bad deeds and thoughts. We cannot just fast from gossip but still have jealousy for people. If the spirit of fasting is not observed, the fast itself becomes useless. Without this spirit, then we are like mere animals who fast because their mouths are tied shut.
Ramadan is not only a month for fasting; it is a month to search for knowledge about the Faith (din), a time to reflect and contemplate, a time to engage in further ibadat-bandagi.
Remember that ultimately we will be judged not by what is in the body but the faith in our hearts.
“Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.”
- Prophet Jesus, (Gospel of Mathew, 15:17-19

5. In place of Zakat we pay two annas per rupee ("Dasond") in the Ismaili Jamatkhana considering it mandatory.

------Zakaat has no substitute name in Ismaili Tariqua.For khoja Ismaili the Pir had translated the ushur(a quranic word) as daswond.Zakaat is an obligation in Islam.We pay zakaat.Apart from the zakaat we also pay ushur(tithe)and khum and also give charity.THE AKDN agencies which are non-profit organization are testimony to our generous contribution.Zakaat is paid in the Jamaatkhanaa.Do you have any objection to this to this practice.Zakaat is collected by the Imam.If this is not to be given to the Imam,why did Abu Bakr(r.a) fought with the people refusing to pay the zakaat to him.Did't the early shiias considered Ali(a.s) as both imam and the khalifa to be the rightful recepient of zakaat?

6. Our Hajj (Pilgrimage) is the vision (sighting) of Hazir Imam {(H.H. The Aga Khan) [(that is because Hazir Imam (H.H. The Aga Khan is the only incarnation of the God on the earth)]}. Rather we have with us speaking/talking Quran, that is Hazir Imam (H.H. The Aga Khan) who is present, but the Musalmans (Muslims) have got merely a void Book i.e. Quran.

-------Regarding Hajj:I can only answer for myself; One of the Prophets authentic hadiths (sayings) says:
"if you provide a needy pupil with a pencil to write with, Allah will bless you with a reward as big as seventy pilgrimages can afford." Although we are a minority within a minority, we, Ismaili Muslims, have gone way beyond just providing pencils! I have explained before that we've been building universities, schools at all levels, and also awarding scholarships. So, I hope, my pilgrimage has been covered by His mercy.
Kaaba has got the exalted position b/c Abraham(as) built it and Ali(a.s) was born in it.Both of them are IMAM and our Imam is from their Progeny.When you are to visit a friend YOU must first know if the friend is still in his house.NOW a simple logical question;If you are told that your friend has left his home,will you insist on going to visit the building?CONSIDER from this example;your friend as Ibrahim(a.s) who built it ans Ali(a.s) who was born inside it.AND now their only successor is not in his home.The kaaba is own by WAHABIS who do't tolerate Ismailis.Do you esteem the home or your friend as superior?
Yes for many Ismailis Hajj (pilgrimage) is performed by seeking the deedar (glimpse) of the Imam of the time. Since his Noor is present in every Jamatkhana (prayer house), going to Jamatkhana -everyday is equal to performing hajj. As explained earlier, the Kaba in Mecca is holy because Ali was born there. For us, the Noor of Ali is present in the Jamatkhana which to us is our Mecca. YES our imam is the Quran-e-natiq. The FIRST Imam to claim this was Ali(a.s) in thge battle of SAFFIN.Do't the twelver shias join us in this belief?

7. Mukhi Saheb dissipate our sins for (the period from) morning to evening by sprinkling drops (of water"i.e. Chantta"). If any person amongst us cannot attend the Ismaili Jamatkhana every day, he can get his sins atoned by getting the drops spinkled (on him) by Mukhi and by drinking 'GHATPAT' (holy water) on Fridays against payment of money in the Ismaili Jamatkhana, and if anyone cannot attend Ismaili Jamatkhana on Fridays he can get the sins of or the whole month condoned by means of the said ceremonies on the night the moon is sighted, against payment of money.

-------Just tell be;Do you believe in INTERCESSION b/w Allah and the mankind.If you are a shia muslim and not a wahabi impersonator,your response should be YES.My IMAM is that WASILA,Allah asks the people to search for a medium to reach Him(quran).I have even seen Sunnis seeking this in the DARGAHS(mosuleum of saints).What is the objection if the ismailis do the same,not from dead people or graves But from the Al-e-Rasool.who is the rightful inheritor of Prophets's authority.
Ismailis must be regular in their prayers.There is no escape and no relaxation.Three times a day is compulsory.Therfore the rest of the allegations are baseless.
YOU might well have seen but you have't realized their esoteric significance.Just as if a non-muslim observes HAJIS doing a number of rituals which seem absurd,such as throwing stone,circambulation etc.TO him these will be ridiculous b/c he does't understand the meaning and purpose underlying these practices.THEREFORE you as an outsider(outside ismaili tariqua;no offence intended plz) might have thought many of the practices in the jamaatkhanaas as absurd.AND if you are a former ismailis I shall beg to say YOU kharijite,as anyone who breaks his allegiance from the Imam-ul-waqt,is a kharijite.

8. The mode of our worship is:- The Hazir Imam (H.H. The Aga Khan) gives us a 'Word'/ISM-E-AZAM for which we pay Rs.75/- the worship whereof we perform in the later past of the night. For atonement of worships for 5 years we pay Rs.500/-, for 12 years Rs.1,200/- and for Life Membership (to get the worships for the whole life pardoned) we pay Rs.5000/- in the Jamatkhanas. NOORANI: To obtain the 'noor' (light) of Hazir Imam (H.H. The Aga Khan) we pay Rs.7,000/- in the Jamatkhanas, whence we got the 'Noor' of Hazir Imam (H.H. The Aga Khan). FIDAYEEN: To get ourselves pardoned on the Day of Judgement (Qiyamat) by Hazir Imam (H.H. The Aga Khan) i.e. (linked) towards the expenses (to be incurred) for getting our 'Noor' linked with that of the Hazir Imam (H.H. The Aga Khan) we pay Rs.25,000/- in the Ismaili Jamatkhana. NANDI: (Auction) We call charity as 'Nandi' (Auction) The best dishes prepared in our homes, clothes of finest kind and ornaments we contribute as 'Nandi' (Auction) are auctioned by the Ismaili Jamatkhana people and the proceeds are deposited in the Ismaili Jamatkhanas.

-------Again these are all misinterpretations of the practices specific to Ismaili Tariqua.I do't blame you for this,b/c these are hard to grasp for anybody outside the fold of imam-e-hazir.I beg not to explain these for these are batini practices and can only lead to misunderstanding. ORTHODOX PEOPLE have misunderstood Mansoor Hllaj and killed him.Will't they do the same with me if I put aside the farmaan of Imam jafer Sadiq(a.s) who introduced taqia in the shia islam.

9. Our religion is centuries old. No one has criticized it till this date. Had our religion been untrue it should have come to an end long ago. Now, if the Musalmans (Muslims) or their Ulemas (Religious Scholars) see any flaw in our religion or if they have any objection, why do not they seek explanation from our office bearers of the H.R.H. Prince Aga Khan Federal Council for Pakistan? The Ulemas (Religious Scholars) of the Musalmans (Muslims) also criticize but why they hesitate in seeking explanation from our Hazir Imam (H.H. The Aga Khan)? Are they afraid of our Hazir Imam (H.H. The Aga Khan)? For centuries the Ulemas (Religious Scholars) of the Musalmans (Muslims) have never criticized our Ismaili religion then from where have the Ulemas (Religious Scholars) of the fifteenth century awaken to criticize us. During every period, we have enjoyed the support of the Government of the time. Then this is the very fact of the genuineness of our Ismaili religion.

---------WRONG!!people have criticized us and still do so.BUT why should I care for the criticism.IF I am right in the eyes of Allah and my Hazir Imam,it is enough for me.DO'T you as an educated person see these wordings rediculous?CAN these be the words of ISMAILI TARIQUA BOARD?I for once realize now,HOW far from truth people go,and that too in the name of ISLAM!!God pardon us!



IN the end let me express my HOPES that from now onwards you will BRUSH these polemics under carpet and be ready for a healthy discussion.YOU must promise that you will not take the help of what I call "STRAY ARTICLES" written by WAHABIS,KHARIJITES AND OTHER MISCHIEF-MONGERS and come-up with right and authentic materials for discussion on this board.MAY I also exoect you to delete the earlier posts Which are intended to malign OUR HAZIR IMAM.AFTERALL trust building is the first step for DIALOGUE to proceed.

YA ALI MADAD

#109 shia imami ismaili muslim

shia imami ismaili muslim

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Posted 31 December 2005 - 09:16 AM

good!now you have alleged that evils are still present in the society even with the prescribed five daily prayers.

my question is :are these evils present because of the five daily prayers?or are they present because this duty ia carried on? is it the weakness of this duty on the believers that have caused you to change its make up? and how have your dua being more successful? dont you think when the five daily prayers are done correctly and properly ,they are better than your dua?please answer be practically not in theories like you have done.

another ismaili thoery!where did you bring this "fact" that when the prayers become a habit ,it should be shun?can you bring any hadith?

what about WA MA KHALAQTUL JINNA WAL INSA ILLA LI YABUDUN?DONT YOU THINK THIS IS ANOTHER HABIT? SO ALSO IS EVERY DAY RECOGNIZING THE ONENESS OF GOD A HABIT!

another important point i would like to mention is concerning the imamate of imam hassan (as) .why after years has passed you decided to delete his name from the list of imam?i hope you are not going to claim that its the twelvers and zaidis that added his name after years!!!!!but your deletion is again related to one of your theories:the theory of "7".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


REGARDING prayers you have misunderstood my reply.I want to to leave this and proceed.IF your prayers are right Allah will tell us on the DAY OF JUDGMENT.Also read my response to Syed brother regarding prayers.HOPEFULLY you will get answer to your queries.

REGARDING the IMAMAT OF hassan(as),Ismailis consider him as their IMAM.THE confusion that we do't believe in him arose because we do't mention him in the genealogy of our IMAM.THE reason being that our present imam's genealogy traces back to imam Hussain(a.s),that is imam ibn imam OR seed after seed.WE have no what you call "Philosophy of sevens".WE believe in PERPETUAL IMAMAT.THE uninformed historians particularly the twelver believe that we accept only the FIRST seven IMAM SO WE HAVE GOT SOME FASCINATION WITH THE FIGURE SEVEN.This is wrong.OUR imam have be manifest in the physical world and will be so till the day of judgment.NO generation will be left without an imam from the AHL-E-BAIT(A.S).

#110 mehdi soldier

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Posted 31 December 2005 - 09:31 AM

REGARDING prayers you have misunderstood my reply.I want to to leave this and proceed.IF your prayers are right Allah will tell us on the DAY OF JUDGMENT.Also read my response to Syed brother regarding prayers.HOPEFULLY you will get answer to your queries.

REGARDING the IMAMAT OF hassan(as),Ismailis consider him as their IMAM.THE confusion that we do't believe in him arose because we do't mention him in the genealogy of our IMAM.THE reason being that our present imam's genealogy traces back to imam Hussain(a.s),that is imam ibn imam OR seed after seed.WE have no what you call "Philosophy of sevens".WE believe in PERPETUAL IMAMAT.THE uninformed historians particularly the twelver believe that we accept only the FIRST seven IMAM SO WE HAVE GOT SOME FASCINATION WITH THE FIGURE SEVEN.This is wrong.OUR imam have be manifest in the physical world and will be so till the day of judgment.NO generation will be left without an imam from the AHL-E-BAIT(A.S).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

it seems all the time you have refused to give answers to the sayyed have being invested in research.

let me make it clear.am disgusted with those your replies.esoterism has confused you.you tend to justify things unrealistically and they are nothing but sophistry and what i would tag "clever errors".!!!


you are the same with the wahhabis.its just that you belong to two different extremes.they take everything literal,you take everything figurative.

the prophet said pray as you see me pray.and the difference you stated about the prayers being different among the sects are minor.thge sunnis fold their arms while shias dont and things like that.but ruku,sujud and wuquf plus the shahada are all done.essentially the main parts are present.but of all the islamic sects,your own sects practice of salat is in an unislamic fashion.

karim agha khan is your bondage.how can one man lead you into blindness in the name of imamate.all the imams are supposed to compliment ,respect and keep the teachings of prophet muhammad (pbuh) .seriously my heart is crying for you ismailis especially because you identify with shiism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


two more questions.

why do you deny the existence of a "mahdi"?

do you believe that jesus (as) will come or do you think its also esoteric?

Edited by mehdi soldier, 31 December 2005 - 09:44 AM.


#111 shia imami ismaili muslim

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 06:23 AM

[quote name='mehdi soldier' date='Dec 31 2005, 08:29 AM']

Dear Mehdi!
u seem to be the most irrational person I have ever come across.I have exhausted from answering you.IN my prevoius post I had replied to your queries as an ismailis not a twelver!But still you have come up with the same banter.It seems as if I am talking with the walls.Did I ever said that YOU should agree with me.YOU have full right to disagree,BUT not to question OR issue edict!

You Said:the prophet said pray as you see me pray.and the difference you stated about the prayers being different among the sects are minor.thge sunnis fold their arms while shias dont and things like that.but ruku,sujud and wuquf plus the shahada are all done.essentially the main parts are present.but of all the islamic sects,your own sects practice of salat is in an unislamic fashion.
------Do u know how naive u sound here!plz don't take it to heart.I mean u r repeating the same thing.Again I emphasize,that u have full right to disagree.But to do ruku or sujud are just the posture of the body and they don't make real difference unless and untill you have humility and tashakkur in your heart.A men just sitting on a chair remebering Allah can be more rightly in the act prayers then a man in ruku and sujjud,for this is only the niat and humility in heart that matters for Allah not the way you bent yout trunk and spinal cord or how you put your skull on the ground ,with pride and arrogance in the heart.DON'T you believe in Allah as the Knower of secrets in the heart.As for your point of Prophet having said;"pray as you see me",I don't claim to have seen him praying.Did you see him praying??U r claiming supernatural origion!!Are't you?
As for the word unislamic fashion,I would advice you to mind your language.You are not my SUPREME AYATULLAH!! As Dr.Johnson said;"God Himself,sir does't propose to judge man until the ends of his days".Then why should you and I?

You Said:karim agha khan is your bondage.how can one man lead you into blindness in the name of imamate.all the imams are supposed to compliment ,respect and keep the teachings of prophet muhammad (pbuh) .seriously my heart is crying for you ismailis especially because you identify with shiism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
------well friend. YOU MEAN THAT, all, Imam should do is to copy his predecessors,THEN why should he at all exist in the first place.We can copy it by ourself.I would like to brotherly advice you to re-visit the CONCEPT of Imamat or meet some good shia scholar to refresh your knwledge about the authority of Imam.YOU seem to be inebriated with the wahabism,THE greatest preservers of Prophet's words and actions without a minuscule alteration.THEY are doing this job very well,SO stop waiting for the MEHDI's return!

As for as you questions about Mehdi is concerned,I have't yet read about these,b/c I am studying ismailism for the last few months.But a brother"ismailite"in some other thread threw some light on this.

Like Twelvers, Ismailies too believe in the coming of the last Imam by the name of Imam Mahdi or Imam Qaim.

From my observations, the events of the Twelver Mahdi seemed very focus on the physical world, ie: armies, battles, World Government. In Ismailism, the Mahdi will proclaim a spiritual revolution, Mahdi will procliam the Religion of Resurrection, the religion of the Holy Imams.
However, in Ismalism, the Mahdi is the final Imam of the current era, and he is not in hiding or born yet, rather he will be a descendant of the current Ismaili Imam.

We believe that Mahdi will be the Imam to reveal the inner meaning of all religions and in doing so, he will initiate an age of Enlightenment where preivously concealed spiritual truths will be openly manifest. The tawil of all scriptures and religions will be revealed and no longer concealed by symbols. We also believe that Mahdi has the power to abrogate or reform ritual law of religion

#112 Syed Shams H. Naqvi

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 07:22 AM

(bismillah)

(salam) & Ya Ali Madad,

I love you my Ismaili brother (both in esoteric and exoteric ways)! What a lovely explaination you have given! I really appreciate you and at the same time I quote your own words:

".....I for once realize now,HOW far from truth people go,and that too in the name of ISLAM!!God pardon us!"


And I say....... AMEEN, SUM AMEEN!

Coming back to the discussion. I would request Aliya and Mehdi Soldier to please act as mediators/facilitators. I request them to tell me that whatever my Ismaili brother had replied me is JUSTIFIED, TO THE POINT, ACCORDING TO THE QURAN, MUHAMMAD (pbuh) and ALI (A.S)??????
Why according to the Quran, Muhammad and Ali? Becasue Allah tells through Quran and what He has told was practically explained throuhg Muhammad and what Muhammad explained was thoroughly implementd through Ali. When you say that your Imam is from Ali (as), it means he (AK VI) has to practically implement the teachings of Ali (those are, in fact, the commandments of Allah) and not to SUPERCEDE Ali´s teachings. Should Ali (as) follow Karim Aga Khan or Aga Khan should follow him??? If AK VI is from the Noor of Ali, it means he has to copy Ali. Where and how can you demonstrate and prove that whatever your Hazir Imam says are the teachings of Ali?

As Allah says in His Book ".........prove any contradiction in this book, but, you can not!". This is the biggest challenge Allah has given to the mankind since the revelation of the Holy Words, but, not yet any person has been able to bring any such contradiction. You know why? Becasue the truth doesnt have any contradiction. Keeping in view the above challenge, I quote you:

I would love to answer all your queries,but first I request you to give me some reference to the above 11 points.Only then I will be in the position to answer you.


When I posted my 11 points for your kind OPINION, you thrashed me that these are STRAY articles and you denied to accept them as true and you asked for the reference. If you had denied that these Ismaili concepts are not posted by your authorities, I would have shown you the confirming emails (of Ismaili Tariqa Board) of the above statement. Firt you denied, but, thanks God you realized that you should reply them. You did good, and I am thankful to you for this favour.

Now come to the discussion:

1. Your 'Kalima' (Testimony) is: "Ashhado an la ilaha il-Allaho wa ashhado anna Muhammad-ur-Rasool-Ullahe wa ashhado anna Ameer-ul-Momineen Ali-Ullah"

Dont give me the translation. ACCEPT OR DENY that these are words of your Kalma. Leave the translation on the readers.

I quote you again:

2.

Our Tariqah is about using the intellect and the mind. Each Ismaili is free to adopt a form of fasting as they choose. There is nothing against fasting from food and drink for the month. However, this is not the only form of fasting that exists. For example, there is the fasting from bad deeds, fasting from bad thoughts, fasting of gossip, fasting from lust, fasting from useless talk, etc. All these types of fasting induce God-consciousness or taqwah upon the believer......


I remind you the commandment of Allah. ".....O PEOPLE! WE HAVE MADE FASTING MENDATORY (FARZ) FOR YOU AS WE MADE IT COMPULSORY TO THE PREVIOUS NATIONS (UMMATS) SO THAT YOU GET RIGHTEOUSNESS...."
Does your above quoted statement match with the teachins of Islam? Yes or No? Please dont waste your time in esoteric and exoteric meanings of this verse. One thing is clearly ordered and even Muhammad (pbuh) and Ali (as) were not allowed to change it or replace it or misunderstand it. Do you think that the things Ali did not do, AK VI can do? And if yes, by whose permission? And if he is permitted, where is the evidence? (Not self claimed permission. It must be in the circle of Islamic teacings). I quote you:

"......Ismailis look to there imam as the rightful sucessor of Muhammad.He is the men who has been vested with authority.He can change whatever he wants...."


Can you please provide us this authority (to change the fundamentals and basic philosophies of Islam) that was granted to AK VI? When you say that you are Muslims, please prove your statement within the framework of Islam.

Whatever you have said about the actions of your Mukhi Saheb (Chanta of your sins), Salat, Zakat, Khums, Hajj and other RITUALS, is your own problem. I wanted you confess that you do all these things. I am not here to make you believe in us. I am neither here to convert you from what you are. I wanted to tell all my freinds what you do and despite all what you do, you insist that you are Muslims and Shias. We dont contradict what you do. Keep on doing that, my brother! I can only pray for you to find the right path. Just wanted to ask that if everything you do is different from Islam and Shiaism, how can you claim that you are muslims and Shias?

If sins can be forgiven just for a small amount of money, then..................... nobody will be bothered about Zina, Theft, Killing................etc etc.................
And thanks for calling me, Former Ismaili (or Kharji) or Wahabi.....I am nothing but defender of my Relgion.
If you wuold like to reply my post in toto, I´ll be thankful. I have a lot of stuff to discuss with you. I beg pardon on my any statement if you are hurt.
May Allah give us the right path, ameen.

Regards,

Ali Ali

Shams

Edited by Syed Shams H. Naqvi, 03 January 2006 - 05:19 AM.


#113 mehdi soldier

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 12:55 PM

(bismillah)

(salam) & Ya Ali Madad,

I love you my Ismaili brother (both in esoteric and axotric ways)! What a lovely explaination you have given! I really appreciate you and at the same time I quote your own words:
And I say....... AMEEN, SUM AMEEN!

Coming back to the discussion. I would request Aliya and Mehdi Soldier to please act aS mediators/facilitators. I request them to tell me that what my Ismaili brother had replied me is JUSTIFIED, TO THE POINT, ACCORDING TO THE QURAN, MUHAMMAD  (pbuh) and ALI (A.S)??????
Why according to the Quran, Muhammad and Ali? Becasue Allah tells through Quran and what He has told was practically expained throuhg Muhammad and what Muhammad explained was thoroughly implementd through Ali. When you say that your Imam is from Ali (as), it means he (AK VI) has to practically implement the teachings of Ali (those are, in fact, the commandments of Allah) and not to SUPERCEDE Ali´s teachings. Should Ali (as) follow Karim Aga Khan or Aga Khan should follow him??? If AK VI is from the Noor of Ali, it means he has to copy Ali. Where and how can you demonstrate and prove that whatever your Hazir Imam says are the teachings of Ali?

As Allah says in His Book ".........prove any contradiction in this book, but, you can not!". This is the biggest challenge Allah has given to the manking since the revelation of the Holy Words, but, not yet any person has been able to bring any such contradiction. You know why? Becasue the truth doesnt have any contradiction. Keeping in view the above challenge, I quote you:
When I posted my 11 points for your kind OPINION, you thrashed me that these are STRAY articles and you denied that to accept them as true and you asked for the reference. If you had denied that these Ismaili concepts are not posted by your authorities, I would have shown you the confirming emails (of Ismaili Tariqa Board) of the above statement. Firt you denied, but, thanks God you realized that you should reply them. You did good, and I am thankful to you for this favour.

Now come to the discussion:

1. Your 'Kalima' (Testimony) is: "Ashhado an la ilaha il-Allaho wa ashhado anna Muhammad-ur-Rasool-Ullahe wa ashhado anna Ameer-ul-Momineen Ali-Ullah"

Dont give me the translation. ACCEPT OR DENY that these are words of your Kalma. Leave the translation on the readers.

I quote you again:

2.

I remind you the commandment of Allah. ".....O PEOPLE! WE HAVE MADE FASTING MENDATORY (FARZ) FOR YOU AS WE MADE IT COMPULSORY TO THE PREVIOUS NATIONS (UMMATS) SO THAT YOU GET RIGHTEOUSNESS...."
Does your above quoted statement match with the teachins of Islam? Yes or No? Please dont waste your time in esoteric and exoteric meanings of this verse. One thing is clearly ordered and even Muhammad  (pbuh) and Ali (as) were not allowed to change it or replace it or misundertood it. Do you think that the think Ali did not do, AK VI can do? And if yes, by whose permission? And if he is permitted, where is the evidence? (Not self claimed permission. It must be in the circle of Islamic teacings). I quote you:
Can you please provide us this authority (to change the fundamentals and basic philosophies of Islam) that was granted to AK VI? When you say that you are Muslims, please prove your statement within the framework of Islam.

Whatever you have said about the actions of your Mukhi Saheb (Chanta of your sins), Salat, Zakat, Khums, Hajj and other RITUALS, is your own problem. I wanted you confess that you do all these things. I am not here to make you believe in us. I am neither here to convert you from what you are. I wanted to tell all my freinds what you do and despite all what you do, you insist that you are muslims and Shias. We dont contradict what you do. Keep on doing that, my brother! I can only pray for you to find the right path. Just wanted to ask that if everything you do is different from Islam and Shiaism, how can you claim that you are muslims and Shias?

If sins can be forgiven just for a small amount of money, then..................... nobody will be bothered about Zina, Theft, Killing................etc etc.................
And thanks for calling me, Former Ismaili (or Kharji) or Wahabi.....I am nothing but defender of my Relgion.
If you wuold like to reply my  post in toto, I´ll be thankful. I have a lot of stuff to discuss with you. I beg pardon on my any statement if you are hurt.
May Allah give us the right path, ameen.

Regards,

Ali Ali

Shams

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

to be fair am not satisfied with the explanations given to your questions ,not the least!all the ismaili have succeded is in reinterpreting things and justifying them in his opwn theories and understanding.but as you would have expected him to do,he should provide a hadith or quranic verse either about the 49 imam that he would change prayers or that there would be future changes that are drastic.but all we find in hadith is the opposite.then how can be still believe that prophet muhammad is the last of messengers when the imams are expected to keep his law and compliment it in their teachings and not cancel them.

#114 Syed Shams H. Naqvi

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 05:22 AM

(bismillah)

(salam) & Ya Ali Madad!

Thanks my Soldier brohter! Aliya! I need your opinion, too. Please go through the texts and give your wise comments. My Ismaili Brother! I am waiting for your further response on my post.

May Allah give us right path, ameen.

Regards,

Ali Ali

Shams

#115 mehdi soldier

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 06:56 AM

[quote name='shia imami ismaili muslim' date='Jan 2 2006, 11:21 AM']
[quote name='mehdi soldier' date='Dec 31 2005, 08:29 AM']

Dear Mehdi!
u seem to be the most irrational person I have ever come across.I have exhausted from answering you.IN my prevoius post I had replied to your queries as an ismailis not a twelver!But still you have come up with the same banter.It seems as if I am talking with the walls.Did I ever said that YOU should agree with me.YOU have full right to disagree,BUT not to question OR issue edict!

You Said:the prophet said pray as you see me pray.and the difference you stated about the prayers being different among the sects are minor.thge sunnis fold their arms while shias dont and things like that.but ruku,sujud and wuquf plus the shahada are all done.essentially the main parts are present.but of all the islamic sects,your own sects practice of salat is in an unislamic fashion.
------Do u know how naive u sound here!plz don't take it to heart.I mean u r repeating the same thing.Again I emphasize,that u have full right to disagree.But to do ruku or sujud are just the posture of the body and they don't make real difference unless and untill you have humility and tashakkur in your heart.A men just sitting on a chair remebering Allah can be more rightly in the act prayers then a man in ruku and sujjud,for this is only the niat and humility in heart that matters for Allah not the way you bent yout trunk and spinal cord or how you put your skull on the ground ,with pride and arrogance in the heart.DON'T you believe in Allah as the Knower of secrets in the heart.As for your point of Prophet having said;"pray as you see me",I don't claim to have seen him praying.Did you see him praying??U r claiming supernatural origion!!Are't you?
As for the word unislamic fashion,I would advice you to mind your language.You are not my SUPREME AYATULLAH!! As Dr.Johnson said;"God Himself,sir does't propose to judge man until the ends of his days".Then why should you and I?

You Said:karim agha khan is your bondage.how can one man lead you into blindness in the name of imamate.all the imams are supposed to compliment ,respect and keep the teachings of prophet muhammad (pbuh) .seriously my heart is crying for you ismailis especially because you identify with shiism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
------well friend. YOU MEAN THAT, all, Imam should do is to copy his predecessors,THEN why should he at all exist in the first place.We can copy it by ourself.I would like to brotherly advice you to re-visit the CONCEPT of Imamat or meet some good shia scholar to refresh your knwledge about the authority of Imam.YOU seem to be inebriated with the wahabism,THE greatest preservers of Prophet's words and actions without a minuscule alteration.THEY are doing this job very well,SO stop waiting for the MEHDI's return!

As for as you questions about Mehdi is concerned,I have't yet read about these,b/c I am studying ismailism for the last few months.But a brother"ismailite"in some other thread threw some light on this.

Like Twelvers, Ismailies too believe in the coming of the last Imam by the name of Imam Mahdi or Imam Qaim.

From my observations, the events of the Twelver Mahdi seemed very focus on the physical world, ie: armies, battles, World Government. In Ismailism, the Mahdi will proclaim a spiritual revolution, Mahdi will procliam the Religion of Resurrection, the religion of the Holy Imams.
However, in Ismalism, the Mahdi is the final Imam of the current era, and he is not in hiding or born yet, rather he will be a descendant of the current Ismaili Imam.

We believe that Mahdi will be the Imam to reveal the inner meaning of all religions and in doing so, he will initiate an age of Enlightenment where preivously concealed spiritual truths will be openly manifest. The tawil of all scriptures and religions will be revealed and no longer concealed by symbols. We also believe that Mahdi has the power to abrogate or reform ritual law of religion

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quote]




humbling the body is a way of humbling the heart/spirit.the way you are putting this issue is similar to the belief of the wahhabis of predestination.is anyone destined to be proud or go to hell?you are free to act goodly or badly.so when you truely have humility in your heart you should not find it difficult to humiliate your body before the creator.

concerning whether you have "seen" the prophet pray or not,you are debating as if we are in a primary school debate competition.its not about how smart you can be but how realistic and truthful.so drop those your ways of twisting things to suite your purpose.i can tell you yes we have "seen" the way the prophet prayed but have not heard.and the way all muslims pray was the way your predecessors prayed some decades ago until your imam made the ugly change of dua.

you have always used the idea of "no compulsion in religion".my dear please am begging you dont become a twelver if you are forced and i will be the first to rescue you back to ismailism!we are not compelling anyone but DAWAH is a tradition in islam.we are proving things and not imposing them.but its unfortunate that you are so secretive in your beliefs.

our "mahdi" is not only of the world.we dont separate deen and dunya as you do.we follow a complete deen which looks in all directions.when the 12 imam comes ,there will be a revoulution in the complete sense.both spiritually and worldly.he is not going to come to verify other religions.he is going to come to establish the ONE TRUTH WHICH IS ISLAM.and there is only one truth.and all those your clever confusions will be exposed.and i would pray for that time to be now to see the look at the face of your imam "of the time"!

Edited by mehdi soldier, 03 January 2006 - 07:14 AM.


#116 shia imami ismaili muslim

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 03:42 AM

[quote name='Syed Shams H. Naqvi' date='Jan 2 2006, 06:20 AM']
(bismillah)

(salam) & Ya Ali Madad,

Thank you for your exoteric compliment!!

YOU SAID: Why according to the Quran, Muhammad and Ali? Because Allah tells through Quran and what He has told was practically explained through Muhammad and what Muhammad explained was thoroughly implemented through Ali.

-------Did Muhammad tell everything about the problems that will arise till the end of times in just a period of 23 years! INCREDIBLE! For I didn’t know!!A very prominent shia(12wer) scholar Alama Syed Muhammad Tababani says;"The function of Imam is not only to guide his followers exoterically(suri or zahiari),byt he also guides themEsoterically(batini).He makes the lives of his followers meaningful and disciplined.He tell them the inner meanings of religious practices and function as a medium b/w them and Allah"------(abuqasim almusuwi;tawziul masail page 31)

YOU SAID: Should Ali follow Karim Aga Khan or Aga Khan should follow him??? If AK VI is from the Noor of Ali, it means he has to copy Ali. Where and how can you demonstrate and prove that whatever your Hazir Imam says are the teachings of Ali?

-----Imam Jafer Sadiq was once asked; what we should do if we see contradiction b/w your teachings and the Imam who is our contemporary? Imam replied that you should follow the teachings of the Imam who is your contemporary for he lives within your time.And every Imam lives within his time and leaves it to the one succeeding him.

YOU SAID: 1. Your 'Kalima' (Testimony) is: "Ashhado an la ilaha il-Allaho wa ashhado anna Muhammad-ur-Rasool-Ullahe wa ashhado anna Ameer-ul-Momineen Ali-Ullah"Dont give me the translation. ACCEPT OR DENY that these are words of your Kalma. Leave the translation on the readers.

--------Not more than 2% will be well versed an Arabic. Again you are trying to twist the things. Look to the Imam sultan Muhammad Shah’s(Aga Khan 3) book, Islam, the religion of my ancestors where it is clearly written. The Kalima goes like this.” "Ashhado an la ilaha il-Allaho wa ashhado anna Muhammad-ur-Rasool-Ullahe waashhado anna Ali waliullah wasi rasulullah”

YOU SAID: remind you the commandment of Allah. ".....O PEOPLE! WE HAVE MADE FASTING MENDATORY (FARZ) FOR YOU AS WE MADE IT COMPULSORY TO THE PREVIOUS NATIONS (UMMATS) SO THAT YOU GET RIGHTEOUSNESS...."
Does your above quoted statement match with the teachings of Islam? Yes or No? Please don’t waste your time in esoteric and exoteric meanings of this verse. One thing is clearly ordered and even Muhammad and Ali were not allowed to change it or replace it or misunderstand it. Do you think that the things Ali did not do, AK VI can do? And if yes, by whose permission? And if he is permitted, where is the evidence? (Not self-claimed permission. It must be in the circle of Islamic teachings).

-----Compare your reply with my post on fast and read it again. Did I deny the importance of fasting from food and drink? To be frank, I never! As for as the verse of Quran you have quoted here, there is no mention of food and drink. There is only the mention of sawm,which is an all encompassing word and this include “to abstain” (sawm,look for this in Arabic dictionary) not only from food but all I have mentioned in my previous post,Viz; fasting from bad deeds, fasting from bad thoughts, fasting of gossip, fasting from lust, fasting from useless talk, etc. All these types of fasting induce God-consciousness or taqwah upon the believer......

YOU SAID: Can you please provide us this authority (to change the fundamentals and basic philosophies of Islam) that was granted to AK VI? When you say that you are Muslims, please prove your statement within the framework of Islam.

-------When Quran ordains you TO obey someone unconditionally, and you pay your allegiance to someone this means you can’t challenge his authotiry. NOW may I ask you to explain the following;”Obey Allah,Obey the apostle and those in authority amongst you(Quran)”.

YOU SAID; whatever you have said about the actions of your Mukhi Saheb (Chanta of your sins), Salat, Zakat, Khums, Hajj and other RITUALS, is your own problem. I wanted you confess that you do all these things. I am not here to make you believe in us. I am neither here to convert you from what you are. I wanted to tell all my freinds what you do and despite all what you do, you insist that you are Muslims and Shias. We dont contradict what you do. Keep on doing that, my brother! I can only pray for you to find the right path. Just wanted to ask that if everything you do is different from Islam and Shiaism, how can you claim that you are muslims and Shias?

------You are sounding very sweet here! Accept a pat on back from me for these words :D . From now onwards, I will never seek explanation for all the stuff you do in the name of religious practices. Those are your personal. Another pat on back.

YOU SAID: If sins can be forgiven just for a small amount of money, then..................... nobody will be bothered about Zina, Theft, Killing................etc etc.................

------Same thing are my focus of discussion with all other brothers in faith(but outside Aga Khan fold).Yesterday in college I came across a Hadith which said.” I you pray 5 times a day all your sins are forgiven which you have committed in b/w the prays. If you pray on Jumma all your sins of the last week will be pardoned.
A very close relative of mine who does opium business (he happened to be a Sunni Muslim, closer to you b/c he does all those stuff you have been preaching here to me) went to Hajj and came back with the full conviction that he has born from his mother just now. I enquired how come for you are 55 plus now. His reply was no surprise to me. One who performs hajj (remember the income to wahabis from this tourism industry, with all due respect for this practice) is washed of all sins. I didn’t object, for this was his belief and I can’t dare to discourage him. A shia friend (in our college there are only two shias, he is 12wer and me 49er,and naturally we are good friend only b/c of our religious affiliation) told me that when we go to the mausoleum of our Imams, we beg for the forgiving of our sins, and this is our firm belief that these are granted!

YOU SAID; And thanks for calling me, Former Ismaili (or Kharji) or Wahabi.....I am nothing but defender of my Relgion.
-------I will’t call you so, if this hurts your feelings. I just wanted to know, if you are a former Ismaili, for in that case you should know ismailism at least better then brother Mehdi,just kidding.Mehdi is a nice brother with sound knowledge.

YOU SAID: If you would like to reply my post in Toto, I’ll be thankful. I have a lot of stuff to discuss with you. I beg pardon on my any statement if you are hurt.

------You are welcome.

#117 shia imami ismaili muslim

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 04:02 AM

humbling the body is a way of humbling the heart/spirit.the way you are putting this issue is similar to the belief of the wahhabis of predestination.is anyone destined to be proud or go to hell?you are free to act goodly or badly.so when you truely have humility in your heart you should not find it difficult to humiliate your body before the creator.

concerning whether you have "seen" the prophet pray or not,you are debating as if we are in a primary school debate competition.its not about how smart you can be but how realistic and truthful.so drop those your ways of twisting things to suite your purpose.i can tell you yes we have "seen" the way the prophet prayed but have  not heard.and the way all muslims pray was the way your predecessors prayed some decades ago until your imam made the ugly change of dua.

you have always used the idea of "no compulsion in religion".my dear please am begging you dont become a twelver if you are forced and i will be the first to rescue you back to ismailism!we are not compelling anyone but DAWAH is a tradition in islam.we are proving things and not imposing them.but its unfortunate that you are so secretive in your beliefs.

our "mahdi" is not only of the world.we dont separate deen and dunya as you do.we follow a complete deen which looks in all directions.when the 12 imam comes ,there will be a revoulution in the complete sense.both spiritually and worldly.he is not going to come to verify other religions.he is going to come to establish the ONE TRUTH WHICH IS ISLAM.and there is only one truth.and all those your clever confusions will be exposed.and i would pray for that time to be now to see the look at the face of your imam "of the time"!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



JUST SEEKING YOUR COMMENTS:

A shia(12wer) scholar Allama Asyyed Zeeshan Haider Jawadi in his book "Kitab Mahafilumajalis page 334 says:

"IMAMAT is a BELIEF which is SO IMPORTANT that if this is ABOLISHED, the belief of MONOTHEISM, PROPHETHOOD AND DAY OF JUDGMENT crumble. This is the reason why Prophet Muhammad said; "ONE who dies without recognizing the IMAM of his time DIES a dead of JAHILIA (KUFR). HIS believes in MONOTHEISM (tawheed), JUSTICE (adl), PROPHRTHOOD (risalat) AND DAY OF JUDGMENT (qiamat) can't make him a believer. QURAN, KA’ABA, and every doctrine and practices of ISLAM hold no ground without this. IF you believe in IMAMAT you have everything and if you don’t you have nothing".

#118 Syed Shams H. Naqvi

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 06:02 AM

(bismillah)

(salam) & Ya Ali Madad,

With lots of love and prays, my brother! I repeat my words that I wanted to show your comments to the people attending the forum. I want to reapeat that neither I want to enforce you from what you are doing nor want to make a mockery out of you or your RELIGION. The people are the best judge and can know whatever you have explained.
Continuing the discussion, I want to know the following and will be thankful to get the answers.

1. Can an Imam make mistakes?
2. Can an Imam´s predictions be wrong?
3. Can an Imam support the non muslims when they battle with muslims? (In a battle between muslims and non muslims, who should be supported by the Imam)
4. Has Imam any religious restrictions or not? He has to act in the framework of Islam or can go beyond the borders?
5. Does Aga Khans claim Divinity (or you people think them as a God)?
6. Can imams contradict each other? (Can AK VI contradict the teachings and Farmans of AK I, II, and III ?


Whatever you will say, I will not argue. Just to know the comments.

May Allah be kind unto us and show us the right path, ameen.

Regards,

Ali Ali

Shams

Edited by Syed Shams H. Naqvi, 04 January 2006 - 06:46 AM.


#119 shia imami ismaili muslim

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 04:22 AM

[quote name='Syed Shams H. Naqvi' date='Jan 4 2006, 05:00 AM']
(bismillah)

(salam) & Ya Ali Madad,

YOU appear very considerate in your tone BUT the same does’t hold true when I went through your previous posts on this forum before I had joined you in this discussion.YOU still have’t entertained my request to delete those stuff you have posted.DO’T you think they are too pervasives for me or any other ISMAILI who will be coming to this forum.DID any ismaili ever say or post any article which is intended to malign twelver brothers or their imam and mujtahids?

COMING TO YOU QUESTION;
1.Can an Imam make mistakes?

------YOU as a Shia Muslim must know the answer! AS per the Shia belief IMAM IS INFALLIBLE.

2.Can an Imam’s predictions be wrong?

-------NORMALLY the imam doesn’t make predictions, nor he performs miracles.
IF at all this is necessary. As per my personal belief, they can’t be wrong. I Don’t know what is the official stand on this,for I am studying Ismailism on my own.
3.Can an Imam support the non muslims when they battle with muslims? (In a battle between muslims and non muslims, who should be supported by the Imam).

-------THE imam will see what’s the best for his jamaat.If the non-Muslims are
Just and they can be more helpful for the jamaat, he has no reason to be
On the side of corrupt Muslim. FOR example; if America is fighting Talibaan or Osama bin laden,my Imam will definitely support the former, for this
Is best for the Afghan Ismaili jamaat.They were bitterly prosecuted by the fellow Muslim brethren and now they are free there under US government.
TO cite another example;Al-Sijistani supported the US forces against
SADDAM, who was a fellow Muslim but corrupt to the core.
4.Has Imam any religious restrictions or not? He has to act in the framework of Islam or can go beyond the borders?

----WHO are to set these restrictions? HE is the expounder par excellence of Quran and sunna.HE will always act within the framework, but the follower is not to judge him, he is to judge the followers.

5. Does Aga Khans claim Divinity (or you people think them as a God)?

-------HE never claims so and will never.Please do’t quote Murtad akbaraly’s polemics.HE is a WAHABI and does’t understand the basics of shii’sm.WE understand IMAM as MAZHAR OF Allah.Mazhar means epiphanic form,and proof of divine reality.

6. Can imams contradict each other? (Can AK VI contradict the teachings and Farmans of AK I, II, and III ?

-------WHEN the new Imam brings about some change there may seem apparent contradiction in the outer form BUT the essence and the basic priciples will never change and there will be no contradiction.IF at all we see this contradiction we will follow the living Imam as per the farman of Imam Jafer Sadiq(a.s) which I had quoted in my previous post.I quote the same here again;” Imam Jafer Sadiq was once asked; what we should do if we see contradiction b/w your teachings and the Imam who is our contemporary? Imam replied that you should follow the teachings of the Imam who is your contemporary for he lives within your time.And every Imam lives within his time and leaves it to the one succeeding him”.(Furooh kaafi ashaafi page 72)

#120 Syed Shams H. Naqvi

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 06:53 AM

(bismillah)

(salam) & Ya Ali Madad,

Quoting you:

[QUOTE]YOU appear very considerate in your tone BUT the same does’t hold true when I went through your previous posts on this forum before I had joined you in this discussion[/QUOTE]

As a psychologist, I am pointing out the general behaviour of all Ismaili brothers giving TAWEEL´s in defending their religion. They call their own people KHARJIS, when a Shia person argues about their claim of SHIA IMAMI MUSLIM they say that we are WAHABIS. Dont believe? Go to their literatues in reply of their opponents.
As your answers are made public, I suppose that you wont deny your own words (though, thru Taweel, you can mould any thing in your favour. If you can do it with Quran, what I am).
For my dear readers, before proceeding, I would love to tell them the contradictory history of Ismailiat, according to their own literature. I would request my Ismaili brother to point out the things that he thinks I have quoted wrong.

Memoirs of Aga Khan and Shah Islam Shah

In 1954, Aga Khan III published his Memoirs through Cassell and Company Ltd., London. On p. 181, he writes:

[QUOTE]In India, certain Hindu tribes were converted by missionaries sent to them by my ancestor, Shah Islam Shah, and took the name of Khojas; a similar process of conversion occurred in Burmaas recently as the nineteenth century[/QUOTE]

Who was this ancestor of Aga Khan named Shah Islam Shah?

Ismaili history tells us that his full name was Sayyid Ahmed Islam Shah and he was the thirtieth Ismaili Imam. Islam Shah died in Kahak in 1423 or 1424 (fifteenth century).Until recently, the birth year of Islam Shah was not recorded by Ismaili historians. Mumtaz Tajdin, an Ismaili scholar from Pakistan, records in Genealogy of The Aga Khan(Karachi, 1990) the birth of Shah Islam Shah in Daylam in 1334 (fourteenth century). While doing their dissertations on thesubject of Ginans, Ismaili scholars havediscovered that Pir Sadr-din and his mentor Pir Shams were living in the "thirteenth andtwelfth" centuries, whereas Shah Islam Shah was born in the "fourteenth" century. This
regression of 200 years casts a serious doubt on the authenticity of the aforementioned claim made by the Aga Khan.
As for "a similar process of conversion"taking place in Burma, there is no evidence or record of any such process having taken place at any time in the history of Burma.There are hardly any Burmese Ismailis.

Noorum-Mubin -- a recommended history book

In 1936, Aga Khan III completed 50 years of his Imamate (spiritual leadership). To commemorate this occurrence, Ismailis living in India and Africa collected funds and weighed their Imam in gold first in India and thereafter in Africa. On this occasion of the Golden Jubilee celebrations in India, abook of Ismaili history was released with fanfare. It was written in Gujrati by an Ismaili author and printed in Bombay (1935) by the press department of Aga Khan'sinstitution for religious propaganda, called Recreation Club. Aga Khan personally
recommended that the members of his Jama'at read this book, which glorified him, his ancestors, and the Ismaili Pirs. This highlyrecommended book was called Noorum-Mubin (manifest light). The author, AlimohammadJanmohammad Chunara, has interpreted the title of his book in English as The SacredCord of God and has described his book as "A Glorious History of Ismaili Imams." Noorum-Mubin is a voluminous book with over800 pages.
It was revised and reprinted three times. It has now been out of print for the last several decades and can be found in only a handful of Ismaili homes.

Pir Sadr-din was a disciple of Pir Shams

Noorum-Mubin records that before Pir Sadr-din started his mission, he took his religious training in Multan from Pir Shams. It also records that Pir Sadr-din, with the help of two sons of Pir Shams, built the famous Mazar (mausoleum) of Pir Shams that is located near the city of Multan and is a historical landmark of Punjab.

It is easy to establish the period of Pir Shams's mission in India since these records are preserved by the custodian of hismausoleum. Similarly, the faith Pir Shams preached can also be determined from his followers living in Punjab, Kashmir, and Tibet. Once these two things are established, it is not difficult to know the period of Pir Sadr-din's mission and his persuasion.

Awliya Shah Shams ad-Din, whom the Ismailis call Pir Shams, came to Multan from Afghanistan in 1201. He was a contemporary of Shaykh Bahaoddin Zakariyya (d. 1276) and Shaykh Fakhroddin Ibrahim al-Iraqi (d. 1289). Shah Shams died in 1276. His converts, as recorded earlier and acknowledged by the author of Noorum-Mubin are mostly Sunni Muslims.

Since Pir Sadr-din was a disciple of Pir Shams, it is inconceivable that Pir Sadr-din could have adopted and preached a Tariqah (persuasion) of Islam that would be diametrically opposed to that of his spiritual mentor. The relationship had existed between these two Muslim saints also supports the claim made by Sunni Khojahs in 1866, before Justice Arnould in the HighCourt of Bombay, that Pir Sadr-din came from Multan (and not from Persia). He was a Sunni 'alim and his converts were Sunni Khojahs, not Ismaili Khojahs.

Hasina M. Jamani, an Ismaili scholar from India

It is very fascinating to read what Hasina Jamani has discovered during her studies at the Institute of Islamic Studies at McGill
University. In her thesis entitled Brahm Prakash: A Translation and Analysis, she writes (p. 24):

[QUOTE]With regard to the period of Pir Shams' da'wa activities in the Sub-continent, there are apparently three versions. Thefirst is a Shajra <genealogical tree> found in the custody of the mutawalli[custodian] of the shrine of Pir Shams in Uchh, Multan. The Shajra says thatShams al-Din was born in Ghazni[Afghanistan] on the 17th Rajab 560/1165 i.e., about a hundred years before thefall of Alamut. The Shajra makes him come to Multan in 598/1201 and permitshim to live till 675/1276.
The second version is obtained from the ginans attributed to Shams al-Din himself.... Surbhan Vel, one of the longer ginans attributed to Shams al-Din, mentions his arrival in Samvat1175/1118. Yet, in another of his ginans, Chandrabhan Vel, his arrival inChenab is given as Samvat 1200/1143.
However, when we come across the name of the Imam on whose behalf Shams al-Din is supposed to have carried on da'wa activity, the name of Imam Qasim Shah [d. 1370] is mentioned. Imam Qasim Shahbelongs to the post Alamut period.
Alamut, as is well-known, was razed by the Mongols in 1256, and after that the history of the Nizaris and their Imams enters a new stage. The child of the last Imam of Alamut, Rukn al-Din KhurShah, is said to be Shams al-Din. In the Ismaili genealogy Qasim Shah is the name of the Imam who succeeded Imam Shams.
Thus, if Qasim Shah was the Imam of the time, then the period of Shams' activity would extend into the 14th century[/QUOTE]
The above observations by Jamani clearly indicate that Pir Shams (d. 1276) could not have been sent to India by an Ismaili Imam,since the alleged Imam on whose behalf Pir Shams is supposed to have carried on the Da`wah, died nearly a century later in 1370.By the same inference Pir Shams could not have been the author of these Ginans and Garbis because Imam Qasim Shah whose name is mentioned in these compositions became Imam in 1310, that is to say nearly thirty-four years after the death of Pir Shams, the alleged author.

Pir Shams - author of 'Gujrati' compositions?

Ismaili history records that Pir Shams was born in Persia. He came to Punjab via Badakhshan, Tibet, and Kashmir. He lived and died in Punjab (Multan). Ismaili historians have not recorded the Pir's residence in Gujrat, Kutchh, or Kathiawar, where the Gujrati language is spoken. Nonetheless, Ismaili literature has over 2000 verses of Ginans and Garbis, the authorship of which is attributed to Pir Shams. Almost all of them are in the Gujrati language with the exception of a few in Multani.

The questions often asked by Ismailis are:

1. Why did Pir Shams compose thousands of verses of Ginans and Garbis in Gujrati when his followers were mostly Punjabis, Tibetans, and Kashmiris, who did not speak Gujrati?

2. Where and when did Pir Shams learn a language that is spoken only in Gujrat and Kathiawar?

3. Who wrote down these Gujrati Ginans in Multan or transmitted them orally, generation after generation?


Pir Sadr-din was a Haji

Professor W. Ivanow writes in his book The Sect of Imam Shah in Gujrat (p. 34):
[QUOTE]"He [Pir Sadr-din] is locally [at the place of his burial] spoken of as Haji Sadr Shah; the tomb is without any inscription[/QUOTE]

The title Haji indicates that Sadr-din Shah (Pir) had per-formed the pilgrimage to Mecca and Medina. It is a well-known fact that Ismailis do not perform Hajj. Karim Aga Khan's Didar (glimpse) is a Hajj for an Agakhani Ismaili. "According to Ismailian ta'wil, hajj or pilgrimage, was interpreted to mean a visit to the Imam." writes Hollister in The Shi`a Of India (p. 390). Continuing further he writes (pp. 391-92):

Pilgrimage to Mecca and Medina is almost never undertaken by Khojas.... In 1896 Agha Jangi Shah, an uncle of the present Agha Khan, and his son, were killed by assassins at Jeddah while they were on their way as pilgrims to Mecca. The murderers were said to be staunch followers of the Agha Khan. They were arrested and kept in custody in Jeddah, and were later found dead at their place of confinement, having taken poison. No information is available, but the incident has allowed the suspicion that it grew from opposition to this pilgrimage which the sect condemns.
Al-Hajj ("the greater pilgrimage"), the canonical pilgrimage, is one of the fundamental pillars of Islam. To condemn it would be to condemn the faith itself. Every believing Muslim that has the means should make the pilgrimage to Mecca and Medina. I have yet to see a single Farman of the present or past Aga Khan asking his followers to perform al-Hajj, al-'Umrah or az-Ziyarah of Mecca, as a part of their obligatory duties.

Abdulaziz Sachedina - a Khojah scholar

Professor Abdulaziz A. Sachedina writes in Rahenajat (pp. 8-9):

[QUOTE]...it is correct to say that from the time of their conversion to Islam from the Hindu Shakti Marg until 1860s because of the influence of the Sunni mullas, who had officiated at their marriages, deaths, and other such occasions, Khojas were responsive to the Sunni school of thought. The beginning of the "Khoja awakening" in the first half of the 19th century ushered the community to the revival of their religious identity as a consequence of their increased level of religious knowledge[/QUOTE]

...Before this period, as evidenced by the 1847 court case, the Khojas had no knowledge about their Shi'ism; nor did they know the difference between the Shi'i and the Sunni schools of thought. Thus, when Agha Hasan 'Ali Shah in 1861 required the Khojas to declare their Shi'ism, the community had no hesitation in signing the document declaring their Shi'ite identity. The Shi'i mulla had prepared the community for this declar-ation of allegiance. And, the Agha Khan and his son `Ali Shah, led the community in their prayers and commemorative gatherings to mourn the martyrs of Karbala, regularly. These and other Iranian religious practices were certainly based on the Ithna 'Ashri school of thought.

Note: The quoted term "Until 1860s" means, until two decades after the arrival of the Aga Khan I to India, "Khojas were responsive to the Sunni school of thought."
Mawlana Rumi and Shams Tabriz

Mawlana Jalal ad-Din Rumi (1207-73) was a great mystic and dervish in Islamic history. At the age of thirty-nine, he became a student of Shams ad-Din at-Tabriz (d. 1247). Rumi is well-known for his Mathnawi, a six-volume work of mystical Sufi poems in Persian, many of which were written out of love for his spiritual mentor, Shams Tabriz. In his Farmans, Aga Khan III had quoted the philosophical messages of Mawlana Rumi and asked Ismailis to read Mathnawi to understand the philosophy of "our" religion.

Quoting a verse from the Mathnawi, the author of Noorum-Mubin (p. 316, rev.ed., 1951) claims that the name "Shams" mentioned in the quoted verse refers to the twenty-eighth Ismaili Imam, Shamsuddin Muhammad. The author also claims (p. 309) that Shams Tabriz, the spiritual mentor of Rumi, was son of the twenty-sixth Ismaili Imam, Allauddin Muhammad.

Ithna'ashri scholars have questioned these claims and pointed out that Mawlana Rumi and Shams Tabriz were both Ithna'ashries. Mawlana Rumi referred to the "Twelve Imams" of the Ithna'ashries in his Mathnawi. And, on his Mausoleum are inscribed the names of Ithna'ashri Imams.

When Aga Khan III asked his followers to read the Mathnawi, to understand the philosophy of "our" religion, he was in fact promoting the ideology of the religion of his father and grand-father, who were Sufi Ithna'ashries.

Confidential Report, Canada - 1987

In the last two decades, young Ismaili scholars and Waezins (missionaries) who have done extensive research on the subjects of the history of Ismaili Pirs, their Ginans and Ismaili beliefs have been refuting in their lectures the erroneous and baseless claims made in the past by Ismaili authors concerning the lives of these so-called "Ismaili" Pirs, the periods of their missions, the mythological concepts of equating 'Ali with Hindu deities that are associated with these Pirs, etc., whereas, elderly missionaries have been strongly advocating these ancestral beliefs.

Most of these refutations are not published for public reading. One of the reasons is that the majority of these students/waezins are financed and/or sponsored by Aga Khan's Institutions. After the completion of their studies, many of these scholars look forward to joining these institutions or their affiliated organizations as full-time paid research scholars, teachers or missionaries. However, the refutations do surface from time to time, either in their theses or during question-and-answer sessions at seminars or private lectures.

Mehboob Kamadia of Toronto published in 1987 a 175-page Confidential Report on Propagation of Anti Ismaili Elements by Scholars. He described the activities of a dozen or so young Ismaili scholars and missionaries. Copies of the report, with a covering letter recommending disciplinary action to be taken against the listed individuals, were mailed to various Ismaili institutions and the community leaders.

Kamadia's frustrations mounted when his report and the subsequent reminders got no satisfactory response or action from higher authorities. The ultimate objective of the hierarchy has been to suppress, rather than to confront, such sensitive issues in public, especially when professors from Western universities are assisting these scholars in their research.

"Contumacious treason against God"

[QUOTE]Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin most heinous indeed[/QUOTE] Holy Qur'an 4/48

DEVIATION FROM THE TEACHINGS OF SADR-DIN

Ginans - the only link with Islam

Ismaili historians have recorded that Pir Sadr-din's profession was to write and sell copies of the Holy Qur'an. The profession was also carried on by his descendants. This tells us that the Pir and his descendants were well versed with the teachings of the Holy Qur'an. After learning the local dialects, they began composing devotional songs in the local tongue and reciting them. The knowledge of Islam and the messages of the Qur'an were thus brought to the converts in their own native language, through Ginans (devotional songs) and Garbis (choral dance songs). These songs were transmitted orally, from generation to generation.

Writing and marketing of the religious songs composed by their ancestors became a profession of some of the descendants of the Pirs. These descendants were respectfully called Sayyids (literally, liege lord). The profession supplemented their income and complemented their mission of conversion. Later on, unknown Sayyids, poets, philosophers, teachers and others began adding their own compositions (songs) to the original collection.

In the late 1940s, a Head Master (head teacher) of a religious night school in Bombay, whose name was Hussein Gulamhussain Hussaini (pen-name “Musst”; literally, in high spirit), added his own composition to the collection. The Ginan is entitled Par karo beda Guruji. This questions an affirmation made by Ismaili scholar Azim Nanji in the Ismaili magazine Hikmat, of July 1991 (p. 27), that “By the early part of this century, the corpus of the ginan tradition, having accu mulated over several centuries, became stabilized and no new compositions have since been added.”

A collection of canonical and non-canonical Ginans has been the base of Agakhani Ismailis' Islamic beliefs and traditions. This was their only link with Islam in their own native tongue. Even today, it serves well for the vast majority of Ismailis who do not have the inclination to read the Holy Qur'an or its translation. In the religious classes, usually conducted within the premises of the Jama`at khanas, Ismaili children are taught to recite and memorize verses of the Ginans rather than the verses of the Qur'an.

Because corpus of the Ginans, accumulated over several centuries, has been the primary media of proselytizing, it is essential to study the history of the accumulation and publication of Ginans, the various categories of the Ginans, and the process of editing of these Ginans in the early part of this century in order to understand the second and third phases of proselytizing.

Today, looking at the past, one can well imagine the possibilities for proselytizing a community whose only link with Islam was through a secondary source (Ginans) that was in circulation by oral transmission over a period of several centuries. Ashiqueali H. Hussain, President of the Ismailia Association for Pakistan (1983), writes in the foreword of Ginans of Ismaili Pirs by G. Allana that it was only in the seventeenth century that the first hand-written documents and manuscripts of the Ginans were available.

Three categories of Ginans

The Ismailia Association for India, which has been a pioneer in the research of Ginans, has classified the authorship of the Ginans into three categories:

1. Authorized Ginans composed by appointed Pirs
2. Devotional Songs composed by known Sayyids
3. Devotional Songs composed by unknown Sayyids

The last classification tells us that Songs (not Ginans) composed by unknown authors have been added to the corpus of the Ismaili Ginans.

Next to the obedience of Imam's Farmans comes the compliance with the preaching of the Ginans, for an Ismaili. Abiding by the verses of Ginans, whose authorship is not known, is an unconventional, strange custom.

Caution for the readers of the Ginans

In 1969, the Ismailia Association for India published a Gujrati series entitled Collection of Ginans. In its introductory notes the publisher has issued an astounding caution to the readers:

It should be borne in mind that many Ismaili poets, philosophers and 'Bhagats' [devout] have written songs and propagated the true path of Ismailism. Similarly, Sayyids have also composed Ginans and propagated the faith. These compositions have been preserved in our religious literature. We have only to adopt the preaching that are within these compositions. But, the Ginans of these composers cannot be given the same “weight” as those composed by the authorized Pirs that were nominated by Imam-e-Zaman.
Agakhani Ismailis who have been reciting Ginans in their Jama'at khanas from childhood are mostly unaware of the above categories or the addition of “Songs” within the corpus of “Ginans.” Besides, it is practically impossible for an average Ismaili to separate the “Songs” from the “Ginans,” because they all are published by the Ismailia Association under the nomenclature of Ginans. Similarly, it is not possible to separate the “Edited” Ginans from the “Unedited” Ginans. The process of editing has continued to this day.
Editing of the Ginans

In the last two decades, the Ismailia Association for Pakistan has published several collections of Ginans after editing the verses and making them conducive to the climate prevailing in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. The office-holders of the Ismailia Association for Canada have objected to this practice of her sister association. The Ismailia Association for Pakistan has mentioned in the introductory notes that the work of editing was officially entrusted to them at a conference in Paris (1975) that was chaired by Karim Aga Khan and maintains that the editing has been done in accordance with the guidelines provided at the conference.

After a generation or two, the Ginans that will survive will be fully edited to confirm with the present Ismaili beliefs and, the others will be lost for ever.

Ivanow's work went “out of print”

Professor W. Ivanow is regarded by Western scholars as one of the leading authorities on Ismaili literature and history. After his migration to Bombay from St. Petersburg, Russia, Ivanow devoted his time to research and travel looking for primary documents and manuscripts on Ismaili history and doctrine.

In his Farmans to Ismailis, Aga Khan III lavishly praised Ivanow, “a Christian cleric” and Asaf Ali A. Fyzee, “a Sulaymani Bohra” for their research and study of Ismaili literature. Professor Ivanow's works were mostly published by the Ismaili Society, founded in Bombay in 1946. In those days the professor was in the good books of the Aga Khan. Ivanow had translated into English a short (unfinished) treatise in Persian on the spirit of the fundamental principles of Ismailis, written by Aga Khan III's elder brother (Pir) Shihabu'd-din Shah al-Husayni.

In 1957 and 1958, Ivanow was financed by a private “Study Group” in Mombasa, Kenya, headed by C. K. R. Paroo and M. H. Rashid, in exploring the historical site of Alamut. The aim of the expedition was to uncover the mystery surrounding to the founder of Alamut, Hasan bin Sabbah (The Old Man of the Mountain), and his successors, especially the enigmatic Grand Master, Hasan `ala dhikrihis- salam (Hasan II).

Professor Ivanow's independent research, published in Tehran in 1960, did not support Ismaili beliefs. The publication was entitled Alamut and Lamasar. Ivanow wrote (p. 25):

It would be too long to go into details of the story, but when Kiya Muhammad, the son and successor of Kiya Buzurg-Ummid [successor to Hasan bin Sabbah], died in 557/1162, he was succeeded by the person, who was officially regarded as the son of Kiya Muhammad, but later recognised as the Imam, Khudawand Hasan 'ala dhkiri-hi's- salam.

This kind of reporting, specifically the one that had challenged the genealogy of their Imam, was unacceptable to the community leaders. When Ivanow continued to write unfavourably about Ismaili history and literature, most of his publications suddenly went “out of print.”

We learn from Professor Ivanow's later publications that some of the manuscripts that he had translated as Ismaili literature were in fact plagiarised Ithna'ashri documents, passed on to him by Ismailis as works of their Pirs and Imams.

“Ginans composed at much later date” — Ivanow

On the subject of Ginans, W. Ivanow writes in one of his out-of-print books, Ismaili Literature, published by the Ismaili Society, Tehran, 1963, under the heading “The Literature of the Khojas and Sat-panthis in India” (p. 174):

It is quite possible to think that what is now in existence is the result of a process of selection which was at work for a long time. The gnans, of which it chiefly consists, were never built into a “canonical version,” respectfully preserved. Creation of new compositions is suggested by oral tradition, the new good ones were apparently accepted, and the inferior old ones were allowed to fall in oblivion. A great majority of gnans are the creation of anonymous authors. Apparently quite a considerable proportion of those attributed to the authorship of Great Pirs probably have nothing to do with them, and were composed at a much later date. This particularly applies to the gnans about various pirs, their miracles, their sayings.
On the subject of Ginans, what Ivanow calls the “new good ones” are in reality the “new Batini Ginans,” that were plagiarized centuries later in the names of Pirs and Sayyids, and the “inferior old ones” are the “old Shari`ati Ginans” that were composed nearly seven centuries ago by the Pirs of Khojahs. We shall shortly observe what has been added and adopted under the disguise of Batiniyat and what has been allowed to fall in oblivion or discarded under the name of Shari`at.
Note: The term Batiniyat means an esoteric doctrine which is “inward” and therefore often kept secret. It also means a doctrine that is of a dubious nature. The term Shari'at means a doctrine based upon prescribed Laws. It means the canonical Laws of Islam that were revealed to Prophet Muhammad, upon whom be peace.

Dr. G. Allana's critical notes on Ginans

The Ismailia Association for Pakistan has published in 1984 a book entitled Ginans of Ismaili Pirs, by Huzur Vazir Dr. Ghulamali Allana. On page 51 of Volume I, we find an interesting observation by the author, who after quoting a verse of a Ginan which is said to have been written by an Ismaili Pir named Nooruddin, writes:

[QUOTE]The above ginan has been written in Hindi. It is interesting to point out that it is generally believed that the earliest poets [sic] in Hindi was Amir Khusroo, born in Uttar Pradesh, India, in the year 1253 a.d. and who died in the year 1325 a.d. According to Dr. Allana, Pir Nooruddin came to India 200 years before Khusroo. The question is, did Pir Nooruddin write these Ginans in Hindi (an Indic language) 200 years before Khusroo or did someone who wrote them later gave the authorship to the Pir[/QUOTE]
After quoting verses from Pir Sadr-din's Ginan and a famous Sindhi poet's work, Allana writes (pp. 90-91):

[QUOTE] Pir Sadruddin was born in 1300 a.d., and Shah Abdul Latif in 1688 a.d. Both wrote poetry, among other languages, in Sindhi. It is interesting to note that in the above refrain, Pir Sadruddin has written in the last line; in Sindhi, thus: [quotes two lines in Sindhi]. Shah Abdul Latif, three hundred and ninety years after Pir Sadruddin, has put same thought, in about identical words, as follows [quotes two lines in Sindhi][/QUOTE]
Here again the question is, did Shah Abdul Latif plagiarize the work of the Pir or did someone plagiarize Shah's poem and give the authorship to the Pir at a much later date?

The original Ginans taught the “Path of the Prophet”

When the Ginans were first reduced into writings they were written in the Khojki script. The alphabet of this ancient form of Sindhi writing is the same as that of the Gujrati language, but the script is totally different. In the religious night schools of India, when I was a student, the students were taught to read and write this secretive Khojki script. Today, hardly one percent of Ismailis can read this secretive Sindhi script of their ancestors. The ancient Ginans that were written in Khojki script have virtually disappeared. What the Ismailis have today is a puny collection of selected short Ginans that can be easily memorized and recited from the transliterated English, French, and Urdu scripts.

Upon close scrutiny of some of the so-called old Ginans, which have survived in their original forms, one discovers that these ancient Ginans firmly advocated Sunni Tariqah of Islam. In other words these Ginans were addressed mostly to Sunni Khojahs. A few verses from one such old Ginan, entitled Booj Niranjan, are quoted below. The name of the composer, mentioned at the end of the Ginan, tells us that it was composed by Pir Sadr-din:

Jo nafsaniyat ku nakhe
sab roze Ramzanke rakhe
man thi hoi shahadat bhakhe
tab lizzat Islamki chakhe

Char mazhab burhaqq kari mane
char kitabku sahi pichhane
aur Nabi sab haqq kar jan
tab tuj hove durrast iman

Wajib farz jo sat kari jane
sab ehkam arkan pichhane
roz qiyamat sahi kari mane
sab kahuku manme thane

Pade Qur'an Kitaba booje
to tuje rah Nabi ki sooje
jo mukh Ahmed kera booje
rah Niranjan ape sooje

Jo booje marag Pir Sadar'din kera
Jo hai sada kabool reh
Sab Nabiyoke Sartaj hai
Soh dule Nabi Rasul reh.

Translation:

If [you] can control your instincts,
keep all the fasts of Ramadhan,
recite Shahadah with belief,
then can relish Islam.

When [you] truly accept the four
religions [of four Prophets],
truly acknowledge the four books
[of four Prophets], and truly
recognize all the Prophets,
then you can have upright faith.

Admit the obligatory duties as Truth,
comprehend all the [Qur'anic] Commands
and [Five] Pillars,
sincerely believe in the Day of Judgment,
keep all these things in mind;

Read the Qur'an, understand the Book,
then you will visualize the path of
Nabi [Prophet].
If [you] comprehend the mouth [teachings] of Ahmed [Muhammad],
the pathway to invisible [Allah] will manifest itself.

Understand the path of Pir Sadr-din
which is always an accepted path.
The crown of all the prophets is
that beloved Nabi Rasul [Muhammad].


The text of the above Ginan tells us that the composer (Pir Sadr-din) was a practising Sunni Muslim. He was preaching what he himself had been practising. He advocates for the teachings of “Ahmed” and not of the “Imams.” He solicits his converts, who were Sunni Khojahs, to “visualize the path of Prophet” and to “comprehend the teachings of the Prophet.”

Post-Alamut teachings and Pir Sadr-din

The preaching and pronouncements of the above Ginan also tells us that Pir Sadr-din could not have been sent to India by an Imami Ismaili Nizari Imam of the post-Alamut period. Imam Qasim Shah and Islam Shah were both from the post-Alamut period. Here are the reasons for this contention:

During the Alamut period, at the pronouncement of their leader Hasan 'ala dhikrihis-salam, the Nizari Ismailis had abolished the Islamic Laws of Shari'a. Ismailis were officially exempted from the keeping of the fasts during the month of Ramadhan.

Even today the practice is carried on by the Agakhani Ismailis who would justify their stand by arguing that they practice Batini (inward) spiritual fasting (i.e., controlling of the human instincts), instead of Zaheri (outward) physical fasting, as per the Farmans of the late Aga Khan.

If Pir Sadr-din was an authorized Ismaili Pir sent by a post-Alamut-period Nizari Imam, he would neither have propagated “Shari'at” nor asked his converts to “keep all the fasts of Ramadhan,” a practice abolished by the Nizari Imams since 1164.

“Break your fast and rejoice”

The vast majority of Ismailis who declare “We are Batini and Sunnis are shari`ati” are not aware of the origin of this concept in the history of the Ismaili Imams. They do not know how, when, and why this religious revolution was instituted (“declared”). There are several books written by university professors under the subject of “Assassins” giving detailed accounts of “The Great Declaration,” also known as “The Great Resurrection.” The Declaration was made in the fortress of Alamut, in the month of Ramadhan, in the year 1164, on the anniversary of the murder of Hazrat 'Ali ibn Talib.

To make it more convincing for Ismaili readers, who may be sceptical about the historical documents recorded by non-Ismaili authors, I am quoting a passage from a history book written by a senior Ismaili missionary, Abualy A. Aziz, entitled A Brief History of Ismailism, p.73:

Mowla'na Ima'm Hasan Ala'Zikrihis Salaam declared the Youm-el-Qiya'ma, the Day of Resurrection, which was held on the nineteenth of Ramaza'n, 559 a.h. (10th of August, 1164). Thousands upon thousands of Ismai'ilis came from all corners of the world to attend this important day of resurrection of the holy faith. The Holy Ima'm declared...
[QUOTE]“Today I have explained to you the Law [shari'at] and its meaning. I make you free from the rigidity of the Law and resurrect you from the bondage of the letter to the freedom of the spirit of the Law. Obey me and follow my farma'n.... Break your fast and rejoice. This is the day of utmost happiness and gratitude[/QUOTE]
Prior to the Declaration, Hasan II was designated as heir to Da`i Muhammad bin Buzurg-Ummid. Following the declaration, Hasan II initiated a new phase in history and became a Khalifa (deputy) of the hidden Imam, a rank higher than Da`i and a Hujja (proof) with a clear authority to command. His words were to be deemed as that of the Imam. Hasan II is known in the history books as Qa'im al-qiyama (Bringer of the Resurrection).
History records that it was a Friday in the holy month of Ramadhan. Hasan descended from the minbar (pulpit), offered two rak'at of prayers and asked his followers to break their fasts in the middle of the day and join him in the afternoon banquet, which included drinking of wine. Followers broke their fasts and joined Hasan in merrymaking. The Shari`ah laws were abolished from that day, and every year the 17th (19th, according to Abualy) of Ramadhan was celebrated as 'id-i Qiyamat, the Festival of the Resurrection.

It is essential to know the foundations and roots of such enigmatic perceptions if we are to fully understand the process of the second and third proselytizing of the Khojahs of India by the Aga Khans, who claim to be the direct descendants of Hasan 'ala dhikrihis- salam.

“Batini — and Shari'ati”

Professor Bruce Borthwick of Albion College, Michigan, writes in his article “The Ismailis and Islamization in Pakistan” (p. 6):

But for Ismailis the basis of religious authority is located in the Imam. He possesses divine knowledge (`ilm), he carries the light (nur) of God, and he is the “Speaking Koran” (al-Qur'an al- Natiq). Since Ismailis have a living authority, someone who repeatedly interprets to them through firmans the faith and gives advice about life's many practical everyday problems, they have no real concern for the Sharia and its application in law and everyday life. They have no real need for a special class of legal experts (fuqaha), nor for a special science of the law (fiqh), which simply do not exist in the contemporary Ismaili tradition, as expressed in a statement I heard made by an Ismaili woman:
“We are batini. Sunnis are shari'ati.”

Pauline Justification

Readers who are familiar with the history of the Apostle Paul and his preaching, especially the one identified by Christian theologians as “Pauline Justification,” would find a similarity with the declaration of “The Great Resurrection” by Hasan II. Paul had liberated Christians from the observance of the Command ments of Moses — the Law — by saying that “faith in the Resurrected Jesus Christ” supersedes the Law. The worship of the resurrected Jesus became the worship of God. The love of Jesus — the resurrected Son of God — meant the love of God the Father.

Hasan II, while liberating Nizari Ismailis from the “rigidity of the Law” said: “Obey me and follow my farma'n.” In other words, disregard the revealed laws of Allah and obey my laws. Today, the a majority of the Agakhani Ismailis are doing exactly that because they believe it to be the essence of their faith. Missionary Abualy A. Aziz writes in the Preface of his book: “Isma'ilis have always kept their love for their Ima'me' Zama'n above everything.”

Aga Khan resurrects “The Great Resurrection”

On 20 February 1910, at Rajkot, India, Aga Khan III made the following “Secret Declaration” before his followers. The text is published in a book called Khangi Farman meaning “Secret Pronouncements.” The Farman is written in Khojki, a secretive script. Here is a translation of that Declaration:

Do not at all reflect about the future and do not at all think about whether you shall receive the Heaven or the Hell in the afterlife. Because, all things — the Heaven and the Hell — [to give] is in my hand.
smailis are repeatedly reminded that more they serve their Imam with body, mind and money, the closer they become to that authority who has Heaven and Hell in his control.

“Total and unquestioning obedience”

Professor Bernard Lewis of the Annenberg Institute in Philadelphia is a long-term member of the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton University. One of his well-known subjects of research has been the history of the Assassins of Alamut, and their mystical doctrines. On page 27 of The Assassins — A Radical Sect in Islam (Weidenfeld and Nicholson, London, 1967; reprint, Al Saqi, London, 1985), Bernard Lewis has very briefly but in scholarly terms explained the base of a belief that requires total and unquestioning obedience from the followers.

The Imam is central to the Ismaili system — of doctrine and of organization, of loyalty and of action. After the creation of the world by the action of the universal mind on the universal soul, human history falls into a series of cycles, ....The imams, in the current cycle the descendants of `Ali and Fatima through Isma'il, were divinely inspired and infallible — in a sense indeed them selves divine, since the Imam was the microcosm, the personification of the metaphysical soul of the universe. As such, he was the fountainhead of knowledge and authority — of the esoteric truths that were hidden from the uninformed, and of commands that required total and unquestioning obedience.

The one, the only, and the whole basic principle — Holy Firman

An interesting article on the Ismailis by Professor Peter B. Clarke, a lecturer in History and Social Science at the University of Ibadan, appeared in the December 1976 issue of the British Journal of Sociology, Volume 27, no. 4. Dr. Clarke writes (p. 486):

[QUOTE]The Qur'an is of importance to Ismailis, but not so important to them as it is to Sunnis. Ismailis have the word of God Incarnate in the Imam: 'It is the word of holy firman of Imam-i-Zaman, which is the one, the only and the whole basic principle of Ismailism.' The authoritative statements of the Imam's — the firmans — are binding on Ismailis and take effect immediately[/QUOTE]
If the holy Farmans of the Imams are like the word of God Incarnate (the Qur'an) for the Agakhani Ismailis, the Ginans of Pirs are like the word of authorized messengers of God Incarnate (the Hadith). Hence, plagiarizing of the Ginans is a serious matter from the point of view of an Ismaili belief.

And buoyed them up with false hopes

[QUOTE]Those who turn back as apostates after Guidance was clearly shown to them, — The Evil one has instigated them and buoyed them up with false hopes. This, because they saidto those who hate what Allah has revealed, “We will obey you in part of (this) matter”; but Allah knows their (inner) secrets[/QUOTE]Holy Qur'an 47/25-26

Edited by Syed Shams H. Naqvi, 05 January 2006 - 07:28 AM.


#121 Syed Shams H. Naqvi

Syed Shams H. Naqvi

    Warrior Syed

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 07:10 AM

(bismillah)

(salam) & Ya Ali Madad,

Keeping in view the answers given by my Ismaili brother (about Imams), I am putting up the following facts (according to their own teachings) for your kind consideration. After going through them thoroughly, you can evaluate what our Ismaili brother answered was upto the standard and truth or .......... ?

1840 A.D. — A political refugee from Persia

Professor Peter B. Clarke writes in the December 1976 issue of the British Journal of Sociology that in 1840, the first Aga Khan (Shah Hasan `Ali Shah) fled from Persia after an unsuccessful rebellion against the throne. The political refugee came to Afghanistan, accompanied by a few hundred of his horsemen, seeking the sanctuary of the British Raj. Before leaving Persia, the Aga Khan had sent his family to Iraq, fearing persecution from Emperor Muhammad Shah and his army. For the majority of Persians that were conforming to the Twelver Shi'ah persuasion of Islam, Iraq was a center of refuge.

Having lost all his lands in Persia, the “adventurous and romantic”
Aga Khan was obliged to help the government of British India in their conquest of Afghanistan and, thereafter of Sind, who in turn could help him recover his lost territories from the Shah of Persia.

“Aga Khan” is not a title

Many Ismailis regard “Aga Khan” to be a title conferred upon Aga Hasan Ali Shah (Aga Khan I) by the late Shah of Persia. According to Aga Khan III's own admission before Justice Russell at the Haji Bibi Case (Bombay Law Reporter, 1908, Volume 11, p. 432) “['Aga Khan'] is not a title but a sort of 'alias,' a pet name when Hassan Ali [Aga Khan I] was a young man....”

Biographer Willi Frischauer records in The Aga Khans that Shah Hasan 'Ali Shah was known in Persia by the pet name of Aga Khan (great chief), which he adopted as his hereditary title. Dr. Daftary writes (p. 23) that “Aqa Khan” is the proper term for “Agha Khan.”

1851 A.D. — Attempt to acquire community properties

Documents recorded with the High Courts of Bombay indicate that Aga Khan I, who was a kind of political prisoner of the British Government in Calcutta at the insistence of the Persian ruler Muhammad `Ali Shah, came to Mazagon (Bombay) in 1849. As soon as the Aga Khan moved his headquarters to Bombay, he aspired to take over the properties belonging to the Khojah community of Bombay. These properties were built long before the arrival of the Aga Khan, by the Khojah community with their own resources, as declared before the judiciary.

The Khojahs had from time to time subscribed money for the Jamat's purposes and out of such subscriptions, legacies and gifts, the Jamat had become possessed of a Durgah, and burial ground and Masjid, and also a Jamatkhana and some other property.
In 1851, a Declaration of Rights was pronounced by Justice Sir Erskine Perry, which read: “...the property belonged exclusively to the Jamat, and that the Jamat and not the Aga Khan, could dispose it off as it liked.” Sir Erskine Perry also pronounced that: “Every Khojah be he a Soonee, or a Sheeah, had a right to go to the Jamatkhana for worship, and to use the utensils and other properties therein.”
The above pronouncement tells us that Sunni Khojahs used to go to Khojah Jama`at khanas for worshipping. Obviously, Sunni Khojahs must be reciting Namaz of the Sunni Tariqah, in the Jama'at khanas, as a part of their worship. No Sunni Muslim would recite Du'a of the Ismaili Tariqah in which 'Ali is witnessed “Sahi Allah or Aliyyullah.”

Today, the Khojah Jama'at khanas, the Khojah burial grounds, and the patriarchal Durgahs of the Khojahs have become the private property of Karim Aga Khan. Only the followers of the Aga Khan are allowed to enter these Jama`at khanas. The followers can only recite Ismaili Du'a and not the Islamic Salah (Namaz) in these Jama'at khanas.

1861 A.D. — Aga Khan admits “Khojahs are Sunnis”

In the cause célèbre tried in the High Court of Bombay before Sir Joseph Arnould in April and June 1866, and popularly known as “The Khojah Case” or “Aga Khan Case,” a judgment document was issued on 12 November 1866 and recorded in the Bombay High Court Reporter (Volume 12, 1866, pp. 323-63). Going through that document we come across a crucial remark made by Justice Arnould about an Exhibit, numbered 19, that was filed by the Aga Khan's own Counsel during the trial. Exhibit No. 19 tells us that until 1861 the converted Khojahs were Sunni Muslims, according to Aga Khan's own admission.
An extract from the judgment document reads:

...on the 20th October, 1861, Aga Khan thought fit to publish the paper, a translation of which is printed in Schedule B to his answer, and is also filed as Exhibit No. 19.

In this paper Aga Khan expresses his desire to bring the Khojahs to conform to the practices “of the Imamujah creed of his holy ancestors,”....He states that having seen it in print that the Khojahs are Sunis [sic], and that a certain person (meaning himself) is “peremptorily inviting them to embrace the Imamujah creed,” he has prepared this paper....The paper ends thus. “Now he who may be willing to obey my orders shall write his name in this book...that I may know him.”
After a few generations of allowing people to read and hear that their ancestors were converted as Imami Nizari Ismailis by the Pirs that came to India from Persia, it is very difficult to convince otherwise. However, the above recorded fact shows that twenty years after the arrival of the Aga Khan in India, the converts of Pir Sadr-din were yet Sunni Muslims.
The facts presented hereafter show that Aga Khan I and his family members were practicing the Ithna'ashri faith and that the concept of “Hazar Imam” was either missing or had not yet been developed.

“Taziyadari” — “an obligatory duty” writes Aga Khan I

The year in which Aga Khan invited Khojahs to join the faith of his ancestors, he published his autobiography in Persian. The book was entitled Ibrat-afza and was lithographed in Bombay in 1861. The narrative is in the first person and the work is written in simple prose, according to Professor W. Ivanow. In his autobiography, Aga Khan I, described his journey from Persia and the difficulties he had to face before reaching Bombay.

Four years later, the autobiography was translated into Gujrati and published for Bawa Karim Dadji by Oriental Press, Bombay. Ibrat- afza is one of those rare books of which Ismailis of this age have no knowledge. In fact most of the Ismailis do not even know that Aga Khan I wrote his autobiography. Below is an English translation of an extract from the Gujrati translation. The selected portion is from the last page of Aga Khan's description of his journey from Gujrat to Bombay:

...thereafter I travelled to Anjar and after accomplishing the Jama'ati work of the surrounding districts I travelled to Halar and Kathiawar. And, in the month of Muharram 1261 A.H. [1845 A.D.), I fulfilled the rituals of “Taziyadari” for Abba Abdullah of Jamnagar ...thereafter travelled to Damman via the port of Surat. And, in the month of Muharram in 1262 a.h. [1846 a.d.], I fulfilled the “Lawajama” [the obligatory duties] of “Taziyadari” in Damman. From there, in the end part of the month of Safar of the said year, I arrived in Bombay.


The word “Taziyah” means “solace” or “condolence.” It is also a name, in the Shi'ah Ithna'ashriyya sect, for a “passion play” wherein a preacher verbally recreates the details of 1400-year-old historical events and arouses frenzied compassion for the martyrs. The act of fulfilling this religious duty is called “Taziyadari.”
Aga Khan I has confirmed that in 1261 and 1262 A.H. (1845 and 1846 A.D.), he had “fulfilled the obligatory duties of Taziyadari.” This statement would certainly make an Agakhani Ismaili look back into the history of his Imams and ponder; if his forty- sixth Imam, Aga Khan I, was a living Imam or if he was advocating the concept of an ever- living “Hazar” Imam, then how could he have mourned for a dead Imam or participated in the ritual of “passion play” (Taziyadari). And, that too with a conviction that the rituals performed by him were the components of his obligatory duties. To commemorate a dead Imam was to admit that the Imamate, which in essence is spiritual and not physical, had not been passed on to the next Imam and it died with the dead Imam.
“Passion Play” or Taziyadari is a hallmark of the Ithna'ashri faith. Shi'ah Imami Ismailis do not mourn the death of any of their past Imams. The month of Muharram comes and goes unnoticed by them.
Ismailis often defend the fact that the ancestors of Karim Aga Khan were Nizari Imami Ismailis but were practising the Ithna'a shriyya faith, perhaps for the sake of Taqiyyah (dissimulation in order to protect oneself), because of religious persecutions in Persia. However, the rituals mentioned in the autobiography were performed in India during the British India rule under which everyone enjoyed the freedom of religious practices.

Khalu Jama'at

Eventually, Aga Khan I settled in a palace in Bombay together with his entourage. The palace was called “Aga Hall.” In his Memoirs, Aga Khan calls it “a place of pilgrimage” for his followers. In the servant quarters of the palace were settled the distant relatives of the Aga Khan and the descendants of the horsemen that accompanied Aga Khan when he arrived in India. These Persian-speaking relatives and ex-comrades of Aga Khan were known as “Khalu” and the community as a whole was known as Khalu Jama`at. Many of these Khalus used to work for the Aga Khan and look after his racehorses. Almost all of them received a pension or free quarter on Aga Khan's land in Bombay or Poona. In the course of time, many of these Persian-speaking Khalus “married Indian wives, many of them of Ismaili families,” writes Aga Khan in his Memoirs. In other words, Khalu families were not considered as “Ismaili families” by the late Aga Khan. As we shall observe in the following pages, Khalus were Ithna'ashries.

Khalu families and the black dresses

During the Second World War, the British military had taken over the Aga Hall and converted into a school in which I was studying. The English-speaking young Khalus, who were residing in the compound of the Aga Hall became friendly with the Ismaili students. They were often surprised at the strange beliefs of Khojah Ismailis for one of their fellow countryman.

During the month of Muharram and the following ten days, almost all members of this Khalu Jama'at, with the exception of a few families that had intermarried with Ismailis, would wear black dresses. They would strictly observe the solemnity of the martyrdom of Imam Husayn in Kerbala. During these days of mourning, they would have no social entertainments or festivities. The closest relatives of the Aga Khan, with the exception of a couple of families, used to frequent the Mogul Imambaras of the Shi`ah Ithna'ashries in Bombay and Poona wearing black dresses.

In those days no believing Ismaili would wear a black garment at any time of the year. Black was regarded as a symbol of the dissident Khojahs. Visiting Jama'at khanas or attending social functions wearing a black dress was a kind of taboo.

Invocation of Fourteen Ma'sums

The fact that the ancestors of Aga Khan I were practising Ithna'ashri faith is further attested by Dr. John Hollister in the following text. He writes in 'The Shi'a Of India' (p. 335), quoting an extract from one of the Ivanow's rare book, 'Tombs of Some Persian Ismaili Imams'(pp.53-54):

Within the mausoleum there are five graves besides the central one, and others are outside. Within, tombstones “are fixed in the walls in a standing position” which helps to preserve them. The central grave is covered with a sanduq (box) of carved wood. The carvings contain the usual sura Ya' Sin, an invocation of blessings upon the fourteen ma'sums, and rhythmically repeating ornament with square svastion- like combination of four words, 'Ali. In one place it is clearly written: `this is the box (sanduq) of Shah Mustansir bi'llah, the son of hah 'Abdu's salam.' Written on the 10th of Muharrum 904. Notes:

1. Ismaili historians have recorded that their thirty-fourth Imam was named Gharib Mirza but was known as Shah Mustansir bi'llah III. He was a son of Imam 'Abdu's salam. He died in 902 a.h. (1498 a.d.).
2. The term “fourteen ma'sums” refers to Bibi Khadija (the wife of the Prophet), Bibi Fatima (the wife of Imam 'Ali), and the twelve Imams of the Ithna'ashries.

3. Any one that invokes blessings upon “twelve Imams” has accepted the Imamate of Imam Musa Kazim and his descendants. Consequently, he has rejected the Imamate of Imam Ismail (the brother of Musa Kazim) and of his descendants as well.

One has but to admit that such a person cannot be qualified as an “Ismaili” or as an “Imam of the Imami Nizari Ismailis.” In other words, Shah Mustansir bi'llah and his family members were “Twelvers” Shi'ahs and not Nizari Imami Ismailis.

1905 A.D. — Aga Khan III's frank admission

In 1905, a suit was brought against Aga Khan III and some of his relatives by a widow named Haji Bibi. The widow was a daughter of Jungi Shah, an uncle of Aga Khan III. The petition was filed in the High Court of Bombay under Civil Suit No. 729. All extracts connected with the Haji Bibi Case quoted hereafter are reproduced from the Bombay Law Reporter (O.C.J. 1908, Volume 11. Justice Russell records in his judgment (p. 425):

There can be no doubt that the mother of defendant 1 [Aga Khan III] and some of his relatives are Asnasharis. He himself frankly admitted that he had been present on an occasion when the Ziarat to the 3rd, 8th and the 12th Imams [of the Asnasharis] was said but he did not repeat it....
Note: The participants at a Ziarat ceremony listen to the recitation. They do not have to repeat it.

1905 A.D. — Questions and answers in Kilwa, Tanganyika

In 1905, a German officer arranged a meeting between Aga Khan III and a group of Khojahs in the port of Kilwa, Tanganyika, East Africa. At that time the territory was under the German rule. The group members were Khojah Shariff Noormohammed, Suleman Walji, and Haji Suleman Bhimji. An Ismaili named Hasambhai acted as an interpreter on behalf of the Aga Khan. The purpose of the meeting was to resolve some of the issues that the members of the Khojah community had raised during the Aga Khan's visit to Tanganyika. The questions asked by the group and the answers given by the Aga Khan at this meeting were published in a booklet. Below is the translation of one particular question and its answer, which appear on pp. 20-21:

Shariff Noormohamed questions:

Four years ago from now, in Savant 1952 (i.e., 1901 A.D.), during the month of Ramadhan, I was in Bombay. On the nights of 19th, 21st, and 23rd Ramadhan there were gatherings in the main Jamatkhana. At these gatherings you had placed Qur'an upon your head, asked the others to do so and did the Amal of Sabe-Qad'r. During these ritual the names of each of the Ithna'ashri Imams were taken ten times and thereafter Magfarat (forgiveness) was sought from Allah in the name of “Fourteen Ma'sums.” At that time you did not remember the Ismaili Imams. Please explain your reasons for this.

The Aga Khan answers:
Imam Jaffar Sadiq had two sons. One was Musa and the other was Ismail. Now please tell me, what is the relationship between the sons of Musa and Ismail?

Shariff Noormohamed replies:
Cousin brothers.

The Aga Khan rejoins:
They are our cousin brothers. Evidently, we should remember them. Why should we not remember them? Because of you!

Such an evasive response and remark by a person claiming to be a Mazhar (literally, copy, manifestation) of Allah and a Spiritual Father and Mother of his followers cannot but reflect adversely. It nevertheless clearly shows that Aga Khan III himself led and his followers participated routinely, in Ithna'ashriyya ceremonies and indeed Ithna'ashrism was practised by him and his community well into the first few decades of the 20th century.

“Jangname” were read in every Jama'at khana

Jangname (literally, narratives of war; in Shi'ah terminology events describing the martyrdom of Imam Husayn in Kerbala) that the Aga Khans had brought with them from Persia were translated into the Sindhi language. These Jangname were recited in every Jama`at khana of India and East Africa starting from 10th of Dhu'l-hijja until the Chelum (the fortieth day of the martyrdom of Imam Husayn).
Hollister writes (pp. 409-10):

The first Agha Khan used to attend the jama'at khana for the recitation of the day- to-day events of Muharram, and so did the second Agha Khan. By way of concession majalis for the recital of the story of Husain are still continued in the jama'at khana, but the present Agha Khan never attends,...
Aga Khan III allowed the recitations of Qissahs and Bayyans in the Jama'at khanas. This fact also is evident from his early Farmans, in which he tells his followers not to place their trust in everything that is narrated in these Qissahs and Bayyans.
Until the beginning of the twentieth century, Bapu Missionary, father-in-law of missionary Abualy Aziz, used to sit on a wooden Takhat (raised platform) and do the recitation in the chief Jama'at khana of Bombay.

Aga Khan — a murid of Mast 'Ali Shah

Referring to a text from Ibrat-afza, the autobiography in Persian written by Hasan 'Ali Shah, Agha Khan Mahallati (ed. Husayn Kuhi Kirmani, Tehran, 1325/1946, p. 13), Farhad Daftary writes in 'The Ismailis: Their History and Doctrines' (Press Syndicate of the University of Cambridge, 1990, p. 507):

At the time of Muhammad Shah's [Emperor of Persia's] coronation, Mast 'Ali Shah, who had been enjoying the Agha Khan's hospitality for some time at Mahallat, accompanied his Nizari friend [Agha Khan] to Tehran. As a reflection of their close friendship, Mast 'Ali Shah indeed once boasted to Muhammad Shah that 'I have a murid like the Aqa Khan who himself has thousands of murids in most countries (bilad) of the world'.
Mast 'Ali Shah (Hajji Zayn al-'Abidin Shirwani) was a successor to Majdhub 'Ali Shah, the thirty-eighth Qutb of the ibn 'Ata Allah Sufi Order. Aga Khan I had initiated himself in this Sufi order. In the literary sense the word majdhub means “holy fool,” a person who is seemingly mad but possesses an aura of sanctity. Ismaili historians have recorded that the ancestors of Aga Khan were affiliated with the Nimat Allahi Sufi order. Their fortieth Imam Nizar was “commonly known as Ataullah in the Sufic circle” and Imam's followers “were known as Ata'ilahis or Ata'is.” Non-Ismaili scholars Pourjavady, Nasrollah and Peter Lamborn Wilson have written articles in Studia Islamic (Volume 41, 1975) on “Isma'ilis and Ni'matullahis.”
In the Ismaili concept, “Hazar Imam” is the Supreme Authority and also a Mazhar (literally, copy, manifestation) of Allah. It is indeed surprising that an individual who had a god like status among his followers and was acknowledged as the fountainhead of all knowledge and all authority, was himself a follower and had a Master!

Aga Khan no different from any other Syed

In the famous Haji Bibi Case of 1905, Justice Russell has recorded the evidence of witness Gulam Hussein Alu Muraj (Bombay Law Reporter, p. 454) as under:

There is no difference between the present Aga Khan and any other Syed. There are many thousands of Syeds in the world....I consider them equal, they are descendants from Fatima. There was no difference between Ali Shah and the descendants of Syeds in the world. I give the same answer as to Hasan Ali....I believe they were Syeds because they said so....This has been so ever since I can remember.
Aga Khan was called “Pir Salamut” by Khojahs
Nawroji M. Dumasia, an assistant editor of the 'Times of India', Bombay, is one of the few authors who have published books on the early history of the Aga Khans. In his Memoirs, Aga Khan addresses Dumasia as “a talented Parsee and a friend.”

Dr. John Norman Hollister quotes an important passage from Mr. Dumasia's book 'A Brief History of the Aga Khan' pp.85-85 in his book The Shi'a of India (p. 366):

In Bombay the Agha Khan occasionally presided at the Jamat Khana or Council Hall of the Khojas (which, together with other landed properties was purchased out of the offerings made to the Agha Khan whom they called the 'Pir Salamut') on the more sacred anniversaries of the Mahomedan calendar. On the occasion of the Mohurrum he attended with some state to hear the solemn recitation by Shiah Moolas of the legend of the great Martyrdom. On stated days he led the 'nimaz' or prayer in the Jamat Khana and presided over the distribution of water mixed with the holy dust of Kerbella.
Notes:
1. The quoted text tells us that the Aga Khan, after having got the control of the Khojah Jama`at Khana and the Council Hall in Bombay, was yet called “Pir Salamut” and not “Imam Salamut” by his followers.
2. That the Aga Khan had not corrected his followers during all these years shows that the Khojahs had accepted Aga Khan as a Sufi Pir (Master), which he was. In those days, there were many Ithna'ashri Sufi Masters in Persia who had their followers. Since the Aga Khan was an eminent follower of a Persian Sufi Master Mast `Ali Shah, he could have been very well accepted as a Sufi Pir (Master) by the Khojahs and hence was called “Pir Salamut.”

3. The quoted text records, “on the occasion of the Mohurrum” Aga Khan and his followers were attending “the solemn recitation of the legend of the great Martyrdom” in the Jama`at khanas of Bombay. This unequivocally proves that Aga Khan I and his followers were practising the Ithna'ashri faith. The practice of Rozakhani (reciting legends of the suffer ings of Imam Husayn and his family members at Kerbala) and Ziarat of the great Martyrdom even continued during the early years of my parents.

4. The quoted passage also tells us that the converted Khojahs were reciting “Nimaz” and Aga Khan I used to lead the “Nimaz.” My father- in-law tells me that his grandfather used to recite “Nimaz” (Namaz) in those days.

The obvious question is, who abolished this practice of reciting Islamic Namaz from the Khojah Jama'at khanas and introduced the practise of reciting Du'a facing the photographs of Aga Khan? And, before the arrival of the Aga Khans, whose photographs were hung from the walls of the “Ismaili” Jama'at khanas, if there were any? Prior to the arrival of the Aga Khans, the Jama'at khanas were known as Khojah Jama'at khanas. Shi'ahs and Sunnis, both used to attend these places of worship, as declared by Sir Erskine Perry in his judgment.

Bring forward an authority


“These our people have taken for worshipgods other than Him:  Why do they not bring forward an authority  clear (and convincing) for what they do?  Who doth more wrong than  such as invent a falsehood against Allah?”

Holy Qur'an 18/15

THE SECOND PHASE OF PROSELYTIZATION
Aga Khan's “Circular” disputed for twenty years


As we have seen during the first phase of proselytization, the Hindus were converted to Khojah Sunni Muslim, by Pir Sadr-din and his descendants. The second phase started with Aga Khan I arriving in India.

When he first came to India, he and the horsemen that accompanied him were practising the Shi'ah Ithna'ashriyya rites and rituals that their ancestors had observed in Persia. After having seen that the converted Khojahs were Sunnis, as acknowledged in his letter of invitation dated 20 October 1861, quoted previously, he extended an invitation to these Khojah Sunni Muslims to join the creed of his ancestors, that is to become Khojah Shi`a Ithna'ashries. It is very important to note that the invitation extended in 1861 by the Aga Khan I, was not to join the Nizari Imami Ismaili faith but to join the “Imamujah creed of his holy ancestors.”

The converts of Pir Sadr-Din, the ancestors of the Agakhani Ismailis, did not immediately accept him as their religious leader. “The first Agha Khan established his religious authority in India after some difficulties,” records Dr. Daftary (p. 514).

In 1845, prior to the date of this invitation, Aga Khan I had issued a “Circular” addressed to the Khojahs of India, asking them to change their religious ceremonies to Shi'ah Tariqah and ritual, to be performed by Shi'ah Maulvis and Sayyids instead of Sunni Mullahs.

Alimohammad J. Chunara writes in Noorum- Mubin (p. 661) that some influential wealthy Jama'ati members opposed the order and said:

“Khojahs are originally Sunni, therefore the ceremonies of their marriages and griefs should be performed at the hands of Sunni Mullahs under the rituals of Ahle Sunnat.”
In Kutchh, the Khojahs of Kera opposed the Circular. At the command of Aga Khan I, his son Aga 'Ali Shah came to Kutchh in 1858 to settle the dispute. But, Noorum-Mubin records, the party belonging to the residents of Kera was very strong and did not come to terms. In Kathiawar, the Khojahs of Mahuwa opposed the Circular. They too refused to obey the order. Finally, in 1874 (i.e., eight years after the judgment of the “Khojah Case”) a settlement was reached, records Noorum-Mubin.

“Reciting Namaz with hands folded makes it null”

Editor Jaffarali of a Gujrati monthly, Alamdar, writes in Noor-e-Haqq (Bombay, 1964, p. 27):

A warning was issued by Aga Khan the third in a small booklet published in Gujrati in Bombay in Hijri 1312 [1895 a.d.], 'Khojah kom na mazhab na ketlak mul-tatwoh tatha kirya sabandhi nu nanu pustak' on the subject of the fundamental basic religious rites and ceremonies of the Khojah community. Aga Khan pronounced that reciting Namaz (Salah) with both hands folded and/or saying of “Ameen” after “Sura al-Hamd” during the Namaz, makes it null and void, except in the case of observing a Taqiyyah (dissimulation).

The Shi'ah Muslims keep their hands on their sides while reciting their Namaz and the Sunni Muslims (except for those following the Maliki school of thought) recite with both their hands folded. This document confirms that when this booklet was published by the Aga Khan, the converted Khojahs were Sunni Muslims and had been reciting the Namaz in accordance with the Sunni Tariqah of Islam which necessitated issuance of such a warning.

Aga Khan's greatest hour

Below is an extract from the article “My Finest Hour” written by Aga Khan III for the British media and reproduced by his biographer Harry J. Greenwall in The Aga Khan (p. 46):

My greatest hour — I have no doubt of it — occurs regularly every week. It is on a Friday, and invariably sometime after noon. Every Friday I, like every other Moslem in the world, spend an hour in meditation and prayer. That hour is my greatest hour. The little instrument which lies before me as I write — a watch and compass combined, which I carry with me wherever I go — tells me the time has come, and it also tells me in what direction I am to turn.
Always I must turn towards Mecca,....I am a very busy man, and it is on very few occasions indeed that I find myself in the Moslem mosques at Woking or in Paris. If I cannot go there, I simply kneel down wherever I happen to be....
Notes:
1. The Mosque at Woking being a Sunni Mosque, the Imam of the Mosque leads the prayers with folded hands. In accordance with the above warning the Namaz of that Imam and his followers would be null and void, yet Aga Khan preferred to go to Woking.

2. If Friday Noon Prayer was the greatest hour for the Aga Khan, then he should have directed his followers to pray at that time also. Unfortunately, the Ismaili Jama'at khanas all over the world are closed at noontime because there is no such thing as Noon Prayers in the Ismaili doctrine.

3. Aga Khan kept a small compass and recited his prayers facing Mecca. His followers recite prayers facing any direction they choose, preferably in front of a photograph of Aga Khan.

1864 A.D. — Sunni Mullah replaced with Shi'ah Mullah

The documents filed in the famous “Khojah Case of 1866” reveal that two years before the case, in February 1864, Aga Khan I, removed the officiating Sunni Mullah from the old Khojah Mosque in Bombay and replaced him with a Shi`ah Mullah to perform the ceremonies according to Shi'ah forms.

Notes:

1. If the converted Khojahs were Shi'ahs then they would not have hired a Sunni Mullah to officiate their religious ceremonies, especially in the city of Bombay where there has never been a shortage of Shi'ah Mullahs.

2. A Sunni Mullah will not recite and invoke blessings upon the names of “Twelve Imams” or “Hazar Imam,” hence the religious ceremonies of the Shi`ahs cannot be performed by a Sunni Mullah which often 'necessitates sending blessings upon these names.

3. Aga Khan had established his headquarters in Bombay since 1849.
If the Mosque and the Durgah in Bombay belonged to his followers, he could have removed the Sunni Mullah forthwith and not after fifteen years.

1866 A.D. — A turning point in history

In 1866, a complaint was filed against Aga Khan and others in the High Court of Bombay. It is popularly known as the “Khojah Case.” In the judgement document, it is recorded:

...the relators and plaintiffs contend that Pir Sadr-ud-din, (whom both sides admit to have originally converted the Khojahs from Hinduism to some form of Mahomedanism) was a Suni; that the Khojah community has ever since its first conversion been and now is, Suni; and that no persons calling themselves Khojahs who are not Sunis, are entitled to be considered members of the Khojah community, or to have any share or interest in the public property of the Khojah community or any voice in the management thereof.
The plaintiffs lost the court battle. Historians write that a landmark court decision pronounced by Justice Sir Joseph Arnould in favour of the Aga Khan was a turning point in the history of the Khojah community, and the years of exile for the political refugee from Iran were over. At the time of the judgment all the properties of the Khojah Jama'at, including the Jama'at khanas, burial grounds, etc., stood in the name of the Jama`at, and after that date the properties were transferred into the name of Aga Khan. The judgment sealed the fate of the Khojah community. Aga Khan got a Raj (regime) of his own to dictate and steer the Khojah Muslims the way he and his descendants would decide.
1866 A.D. — Majority defeated, minority wins

Justice Arnould recorded in his judgment document that there were between 13,000 to 15,000 houses or families of Khojah Muslims in the 1860s. Continuing a little further, he wrote that Aga Khan's Counsel had submitted, along with the previously mentioned Exhibit No. 19, a book of signature. The document also tells us that the said Exhibit ended thus: “Now he who may be willing to obey my [Aga Khan's] orders shall write his name in this book that I may know him.” The judgment document records that the book “was signed by some 1,700 males.” This clearly shows that only an insignificant minority, 1700 males out of 13,000 or 15,000 families of Khojahs, had shown their willingness to obey his orders.

Raj's policy: “Divide and Rule”

A question is often asked: Why did Justice Arnould, knowing the above facts, pass a judgment that would give Aga Khan the authority to command a community eighty-two percent of whose families or heads of families were not willing to obey his orders? Here are the plausible answers:

1. During the period of Imperial Colonial Rule, it was a well-known policy of the British Raj to “Divide and Rule.” With this court decree (issued by a British judge) the Colonial administration was able to separate a group of 15,000 Indian Muslims from their formidable international brotherhood, the Ummah.

2. By placing this newly separated community under the leadership of a staunch ally of the British, the Raj created a new religious party that would be friendly and cooperative with the administration.

3. The following submission, made by Aga Khan's Counsel before Justice Arnould and quoted in the judgment document appears to be a sort of indirect, circuitous reminder to one of the representatives of the British Government of India that a return favour was due.

...during the latter stages of the Afghan war (in 1841 and 1842) [Aga Khan and his cavalry members] were of some service to General Nott in Candahar and also to General England in his advance from Scinde to join Nott. For these services and for others which he was enabled to render to Sir Charles Napier in his conquest of Scinde in 1843-44 Aga Khan received, and it seems still enjoys, a pension from the British Government of India.
The Aga Khan was seeking a territorial “Raj” in return for the services that he and his cavalry had offered to Her Majesty the Queen of England. One can say that the favour was returned and Aga Khan got a “Raj” to rule a community instead of a territory. Aga Khan III records in his Memoirs that the court decision accorded his grandfather “princely status by the British Raj and its representatives in India.”

Diamond Rattansi — an Ismaili scholar

Diamond Rattansi is an Ismaili scholar from North America. Extracts from his works Islamization and the Khojah Isma'ili Community in Pakistan (Ph.D. dissertation, Institute of Islamic Studies, McGill University, Canada, 1987) and “The Nizari Ismailis of Pakistan: Ismailism, Islam and Westernism viewed through the Firmans: 1936-1980” are often quoted by university professors in their articles. On the subject of Justice Arnould's verdict Rattansi writes (p. 29):

The British not only confirmed the Agha Khan's absolute and divine authority but had earlier recognized Isma'ili loyalty to the British by granting the Agha Khan the title of “His Highness,” and a life pension of Rs. 3,000 per annum. In this gesture the British probably sought an advantage by rallying support against those Muslims who resented the British rule.
A pagan emperor seals the fate of Christians
Nearly three centuries before the birth of Prophet Muhammad, the Christian community was on the brink of dividing into two. A Christian scholar, Arius, advocated Arianism, which professed that the Father alone was really God and that Jesus was different from his Father and did not share in the being of “God the Father.”

Bishop Alexander and his Church advocated Trinitarian beliefs. They excommunicated Arius and declared Arianism a Christian heresy. The theological rift became serious and divided the Christian community. The monotheism promoted by Arius gained widespread support and the Church began to lose ground.

It is interesting to know who played a prominent part in deciding for the Christians their future: a pagan Emperor named Constantine (d. 337), who had nothing to do with Jesus Christ or Christianity. The Trinity document was drafted under his auspices in his Imperial palace by a Council. An Imperial Decree made that document a law of the land.

The fate of one and a half billion Christians today, was sealed by a pagan Decree that was promulgated sixteen centuries ago by a pagan Emperor.

A Christian judge seals the fate of Khojahs

A similar situation arose in the middle of the nineteenth century within the Khojah community of India. Aga Khan advocated Shi'ahism, which would give him the needed authority to rule the community. The group that filed a suit with the British Courts advocated Sunnism, which would deny Aga Khan the role of a spiritual leader.

The evidence recorded by the court very explicitly shows that only a small percentage of the Khojah Muslims was willing to take orders from the Aga Khan.

A Christian judge appointed by the British Raj, who had nothing to do with Prophet Muhammad or Islam, decided for a community of Muslims whether their religious practices and beliefs should be regulated and dictated by a certain Persian “nobleman” or by the Sunnah (literally, custom) as practised by the Prophet of Islam. The fate of nearly one million Khojah Muslims today, was sealed by a British decree signed by a Christian judge in 1866.

1841 A.D. — Aga Khan's “Stout assistance” to the British

In his Memoirs (p. 182) Aga Khan III recorded with pride the “stout assistance” rendered by his grandfather “to the British in their process of military and imperial expansion northwards and westwards from the Punjab” and “during the latter stages of the first Afghan War, in 1841 and 1842.”

Today, this “stout assistance” for the expansion of Christian Raj in India is regarded by many scholars as a disservice to Islam. Willi Frischauer writes in The Aga Khans (Bodley Head, London, p. 48):

The Aga Khan was gratified when his help in the Afghan war was recognised: 'As a reward for my services,' he wrote, 'the General gave me presents. He further assigned to me the territory of Moola Rusheed yielding an income of forty thousand rupees.'
Betrayal avenged by Baluchi Mirs
When Aga Khan I came to Sind from Afghanistan, he and his army weregiven shelter by Mir Nasir Khan of Sind. When Sir Charles Napier was about to attack the Mirs (Amirs), the Aga Khan had promised the Mirs his support. “When the British attacked Sind, the Aga Khan led his own cavalry regiment in the field by their [British] side. The campaign ended with the conquest of Sind...,” records Willi Frischauer (p. 48).

After the conquest of Sind, Aga Khan helped the British subjugate Baluchi Mir Shir (Shermohammad) Khan. He sent his brother Muhammad Baqir Khan and his horsemen to help the British, records Dr. Farhad Daftary (p. 511).

Aga Khan's betrayal was avenged by Mir Shir Khan. In 1843, the Mir and his cavalry attacked the camp of Aga Khan in the town of Zirukh (Sind) and pillaged his possessions. Noorum-Mubin records that seventy Ismailis died that night. The Aga Khan saved his life by fleeing on a horse in his night shirt in the darkness of night. During the flight, he fell off his horse, became unconscious and had to be carried away to Hyderabad by his followers. Ismailis respect those killed at Zirukh as martyrs.

1898 A.D. — Aga Khan's assistance to Jewish settlement

In his Memoirs Aga Khan III recorded the personal assistance and services that he offered to his Zionist friend Haffkine, an eminent bacteriologist of Bombay. Professor Haffkine was a Soviet Jew and a strong proponent of the settlement of European Jews in the Holy Land. The Jewish professor had successfully convinced the Aga Khan that establishment of Zionism in Palestine was a good idea. Aga Khan writes (p. 151): “As Haffkine propounded it, I thought this sort of Zionism useful and practical.”

In 1898, Aga Khan approached Sultan Abdul Hamid of the Ottoman Empire with a statement for the establishment of a Jewish settlement in Palestine. The statement was prepared by Rabbi Kahn, who was introduced to Aga Khan by Professor Haffkine. The scheme was turned down by the Sultan. The late Aga Khan, who had been claiming all along to have Arab blood in his veins, expressed his disappointment in these words:

However, the scheme, good or bad as it may have been, was turned down by the Sultan, and I heard no more of it. I must say its rejection has always seemed to me one of Abdul Hamid's greatest blunders.
1906 A.D. — Aga Khan dismisses “Khojah Joostis”
Immediately after the Haji Bibi Case of 1905, Aga Khan dismissed the jurisprudent committees of the Khojah Community. These committees were operative in India from olden days and were known as “Khojah Joostis.” Aga Khan replaced these Joostis with “Shi'ah Imami Ismaili Councils.” The elected members of the Khojah Joostis were generally elderly members of the community, including Mukhi and Kamadia, and were selected by the Jama'at on the merits of their experience to resolve Jama'ati problems. The office-holders of the Ismailia Councils were now appointed by the Aga Khan. The democratic process was thus abolished.

Since 1906, appointments for the posts of Local, Regional, Provincial, National, and World Councils have been hand-picked (nominated) by the Aga Khans. Recently, appeals by Ismailis have appeared in the local papers of Africa requesting the Aga Khan to restore the democratic process of election for these and other administrative posts in the community.

1910 A.D. — “Khojahs” become “Obedient Agakhanis”

In 1910, Aga Khan promulgated a legally drafted “Shi'ah Imami Ismaili Constitution,” ordained under his seal. He made a strict Farman (religious pronouncement) to his Jama'at, commanding them to abide by the promulgated laws. In 1906, the democratic process of electing community leadership was abolished from the Khojah Jama'at. Now the nominated leaders of the Jama`at were obligated to decide the Jamati problems within the frame work of a constitution that was ordained by the Aga Khan. The essential role of the nominated members of the Aga Khan's “Shi`ah Imami Ismailia Councils” was and is to see that the Khojah Jama`at dutifully obeys the laws that are ordained by the Aga Khans from time to time.

The Constitution of 1910 has been periodically revised and upgraded. The most recent one was ordained in Geneva on December 13, 1986. The opening article of this Constitution is entitled “Power and Authority of Mawalana Hazar Imam.” The opening clause reads:

1.1 Mawlana Hazar Imam has inherent right and absolute and unfettered power and authority over and in respect of all religious and Jamati matters of the Ismailis.

“A warm supporter of British rule in India”

Professor Alfred Guillaume writes in Islam (Cassell, London, p. 124):

The Agha Khan, a descendant of the chief of the Assassins, once a President of the All India Muslim League, was a warm supporter of British rule in India before the advent of the new State of Pakistan.
The late Indian prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru, referring to the famous Round Table Conferences that were held in London to decide the future of India, wrote in Nehru: The First Sixty Years (New York, 1965, p. 256):
... he [Aga Khan III] could thoroughly appreciate and represent our rulers' interests and viewpoint. He was an able representative of Imperialist England at that Round Table Conference. The irony of it was that he was supposed to represent India.
Harry J. Greenwall writes in His Highness The Aga Khan (p. 234):
In those far off days when Queen Victoria paid heed to him, His Highness worked heart and soul for Britain. True, when the question of Indian independence arose, the Aga Khan supported India's claim, but he always added that India should remain within the framework of the British Empire....There were from time to time troubles in Egypt, but never did one hear one word of comment unfavourable to Britain from the Aga Khan.
Petition for a territorial state rejected
We learn from the Aga Khan's Memoirs (pp. 285- 86) that following the Second Round Table Conference held in London in 1932, Aga Khan approached the Government of India and suggested that he might be given a territorial State so that he could join the company of Indian Maharajahs and Princes. The offer was, however, rejected by the Macdonald government and a story circulated that Aga Khan was deeply offended and that the Government of India disapproved of Aga Khan for having made such an approach.

Harry Greenwall writes (p. 190) that on Monday, 23 July 1934, the matter was taken up in the British House of Commons when a question was asked of the Secretary of State for India by Major-General Sir Alfred Knox. The Secretary had nothing more to add to the answer given in the Indian Legislative Assembly. The land on which the Aga Khan had his eye was in the Province of Sind.

Willi Frischauer writes in The Aga Khans (p. 116): “...the Aga Khan never completely abandoned the idea and his successor has been toying with it ever since his accession.”

Aga Khan — a secret agent of the British Raj

Harry Greenwall writes in The Aga Khan (p. 63):

As long as the British Raj ruled in India, the secret services of the Aga Khan were in constant demand....He himself refers to such services, not as secret service, but as 'secret diplomatic missions.'
... It was in 1913 that the Aga Khan was requested to undertake a very delicate and secret diplomatic mission to Cairo. The Khedive of Egypt was under grave suspicion.
...The Aga Khan's mission produced evidence that the Khedive was prepared, in the event of War, to support Germany. Sustained by the Aga Khan's evidence, the British Government decided on a master stroke.
In 1843, Aga Khan I disclosed the battle plans of Nasir Khan, the Talpur Amir of Kalat, to Major James Outram, the British political agent in Sind. As a result, the British camp was saved from a night attack, records Dr. Farhad Daftary (p. 510).

"These are our intercessors with Allah”

They serve, besides Allah,  things that hurt them not nor profit them, and they say:  “These are our intercessors with Allah.”  Say: “Do ye indeed inform Allah of something He knows not, in the heavens or on earth? —  Glory to Him!
And far is He above the partnersthey ascribe (to Him)!”   

Holy Qur'an 10/18


Until Monday my dear freinds, I beg leave as I am too tired. Please reply my dear Ismaili brother.

May Allah show us the right path, ameen

Regards,

Ali Ali

Shams

#122 mehdi soldier

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 08:32 AM

JUST SEEKING YOUR COMMENTS:

A shia(12wer) scholar Allama Asyyed Zeeshan Haider Jawadi in his book "Kitab Mahafilumajalis page 334 says:

      "IMAMAT is a BELIEF which is SO IMPORTANT that if this is ABOLISHED, the belief of MONOTHEISM, PROPHETHOOD AND DAY OF JUDGMENT crumble. This is the reason why Prophet Muhammad said; "ONE who dies without recognizing the IMAM of his time DIES a dead of JAHILIA (KUFR). HIS believes in MONOTHEISM (tawheed), JUSTICE (adl), PROPHRTHOOD (risalat) AND DAY OF JUDGMENT (qiamat) can't make him a believer. QURAN, KA’ABA, and every doctrine and practices of ISLAM hold no ground without this. IF you believe in IMAMAT you have everything and if you don’t you have nothing".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

what you stated in the above can be interpretd by us in different ways to suite our frameworks but does not prove anything on your side.this is basically shia.

you have failed to confirm or rejecte with reason bmy last post about salat.you have not responded concerning t6he ponts i raised about jesus (as) .

concerning your "new found love" with the hadith of imam sadeq (as) ,that his followers should follow the living imam,i think this hadith is an evidence against you.you followed imam sadeq's (as) dead son ismail (as) as imam,while we follow the living son.you claim to be esoteric but again you have interpreted a hadith from the surface.one thing for certain is that imam sadeq (as) was addressing the followers of his time to caution them.

#123 shia imami ismaili muslim

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Posted 07 January 2006 - 05:37 AM

[quote name='mehdi soldier' date='Jan 5 2006, 07:30 AM']

YA ALI MADAD,
MEHDI BROTHER

YOU SAID; think this hadith is an evidence against you.you followed imam sadeq's (as) dead son ismail (as) as imam,while we follow the living son.you claim to be esoteric but again you have interpreted a hadith from the surface.

-------SO HOW COME YOU ARE FOLLOWING A DEAD OR MORE BLUNTLY A LOST IMAM.BEGGING APOLOGY IF I SOUND OFFENSIVE!!

YOU SAID;you have failed to confirm or rejecte with reason bmy last post about salat.

----I have responded in my post to syed brother in full detail.That was enough from my side.

YOU SAID;you have not responded concerning the points i raised about jesus (as) .

-------AS FAR AS JESUS IS CONCERNED,I personally believe that he is a martyre in the path of Allah.His holy body was executed while his soul is alive with Allah.Allah says that "those who give their lives in the way of Allah are ALIVE,so do't say they are DEAD". SO the word alive(zinda) here implies not physically,rather it is the soul which is alive.ARE'T you refutting Quran by considring him(Jesus) and your 12th imam physically alive,WHILE the quran clearly says that every nafs has to DIE(KULLU NAFSUN ZAIQATAL MAWT). IT is only Allah who is hayyu and qayyum.Islam is a deen-e-fitrat,so anything which is against nature is UNISLAMIC!

Allah asks the people to sacrifice their lives in the way of Allah,and the Prophets and IMAMS put this sacrifice into practice by sacrificing their holy bodies.IF the myth of JESUS having lifted alive is considered right,then why did't Allah do the same with other prophets and Imams who were martyred,FOR THEY WERE EQUALLY DEAR TO HIM AS JESUS (as) WAS!WHY did't Allah save them?

YOU SAID;one thing for certain is that imam sadeq (as) was addressing the followers of his time to caution them.

---EVERY imam addresses the people who are his contemporary.AND you must abide by what the living Imam asks you to do,NOT THE ONE who is not with you physically.Allah,MUHAMMAD( (pbuh) AND JESUS (as) are enough as far as the philosophy of living,seeing but unseen is concerned.NOW we need someone who is physically ALIVE!!!DOES'T IT MAKE SENSE TO YOU?????????BE FRANK IN REPLY!!!!

#124 mehdi soldier

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Posted 07 January 2006 - 06:46 AM

[quote name='shia imami ismaili muslim' date='Jan 7 2006, 10:35 AM']
[quote name='mehdi soldier' date='Jan 5 2006, 07:30 AM']

YA ALI MADAD,
MEHDI BROTHER

YOU SAID; think this hadith is an evidence against you.you followed imam sadeq's (as) dead son ismail (as) as imam,while we follow the living son.you claim to be esoteric but again you have interpreted a hadith from the surface.

-------SO HOW COME YOU ARE FOLLOWING A DEAD OR MORE BLUNTLY A LOST IMAM.BEGGING APOLOGY IF I SOUND OFFENSIVE!!

YOU SAID;you have failed to confirm or rejecte with reason bmy last post about salat.

----I have responded in my post to syed brother in full detail.That was enough from my side.

YOU SAID;you have not responded concerning the points i raised about jesus (as) .

-------AS FAR AS JESUS IS CONCERNED,I personally believe that he is a martyre in the path of Allah.His holy body was executed while his soul is alive with Allah.Allah says that "those who give their lives in the way of Allah are ALIVE,so do't say they are DEAD". SO the word alive(zinda) here implies not physically,rather it is the soul which is alive.ARE'T you refutting Quran by considring him(Jesus) and your 12th imam physically alive,WHILE the quran clearly says that every nafs has to DIE(KULLU NAFSUN ZAIQATAL MAWT). IT is only Allah who is hayyu and qayyum.Islam is a deen-e-fitrat,so anything which is against nature is UNISLAMIC!

Allah asks the people to sacrifice their lives in the way of Allah,and the Prophets and IMAMS put this sacrifice into practice by sacrificing their holy bodies.IF the myth of JESUS having lifted alive is considered right,then why did't Allah do the same with other prophets and Imams who were martyred,FOR THEY WERE EQUALLY DEAR TO HIM AS JESUS (as) WAS!WHY did't Allah save them?

YOU SAID;one thing for certain is that imam sadeq (as) was addressing the followers of his time to caution them.

---EVERY imam addresses the people who are his contemporary.AND you must abide by what the living Imam asks you to do,NOT THE ONE who is not with you physically.Allah,MUHAMMAD( (pbuh) AND JESUS (as) are enough as far as the philosophy of living,seeing but unseen is concerned.NOW we need someone who is physically ALIVE!!!DOES'T IT MAKE SENSE TO YOU?????????BE FRANK IN REPLY!!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quote]
brother why have you killed my imam?he is not dead.can you prove he is dead?

hadrat ismail died and was buried by his father.i dont know how you say he did not die.

concerning the salat,am not satisfied with your reply.your answers to the syed is another issue entirely.we were trying to make clear why your change of the form was necessary and whether it was for the better or not.we stopped at the point of how salat humble the believer.am i right in that post or not?

the quran says jesus was not killed nor crucified.so are you saying now that there is an error in the quran?you have just said that the quran contains a myth!is khidr not alive?to answer your question,why was not every imam and prophet also born miraculously like jesussince all are also as dare to god?jesus will come back to off load the burden and lies placed on his shoulders.an imam has to lead his followers and guide them even if that means death by poisoning.so why dont you think imam hussain should also have being saved?there was a purpose for him in matyrdom.imam mahdi himself who is unseen today will be matyred.both jesus and all humans will taste death.but we are taliking about the first coming of jesus.

indeed we must abide by the living imam.we obeyed imam al kazem,who succeded his father with life.you declare hadrat ismail as successor who was dead and never led you as imam.so he is not your imam.he doesnt have to go into hidind and abandon his followers.if his son was living somewhere,i dont see the reason for him to be where somewhere that seems like space.

Edited by mehdi soldier, 07 January 2006 - 06:53 AM.


#125 Guest_Shia by nature_*

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Posted 07 January 2006 - 07:00 AM

(bismillah) (salam)

Ismaili women are allowed to marry non muslim men. The Princess Zehra (Agha Khan's daughter) is married to a Christian. They do not believe in traditional hijab either.

Search on google for more info.


Ali



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