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Was daughter of Ali (as) married to Umer?


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#1 Aabiss_Shakari

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 07:46 PM

No. Dont worry about it. I can find them easily. Besides, I have heard them all - or most of them.

Just read my signature. Umar (ra) was also Ali's son-in-law. Which mean Ali (ra) was Umar's father in law.

May Allah Guide You!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


This made me to start a topic. Well though i hate Umer but i donot hate so much him that i would say that Umer married to "grand daughter" of his "daughter" (though not real grand daughter). My sunni brothers whenever try to raise the status of some one (which that person factually donot have), they just create a relationship of that person with Prophet (pbuh) by any means. While doing so their mind setup stops working. I shall ask Sunni-bro to go outside see any 60 year old man (who has also 2 wives already) in the street and say him "O old man why donot you marry to the grand daughter of your daughter". Well i am sure that old man will either himself or ask any of his son to break the head of Sunni-bro. It is realy pathetic that they ask us to respect companions but on the other hand they give such a bad blaim on their personality. I have not seen in any respectable family that a person married the grand daughter of his daughter. Am i not correct in saying "Simply Nonsense". May Allah remove the glasses of bias from the eyes of our sunni brothers who just say and donot think that they are not raising the status of some one rather insulting them. :mad:

#2 fzilla

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 01:55 AM

This made me to start a topic. Well though i hate Umer but i donot hate so much him that i would say that Umer married to "grand daughter" of his "daughter" (though not real grand daughter). My sunni brothers whenever try to raise the status of some one (which that person factually donot have), they just create a relationship of that person with Prophet (pbuh) by any means. While doing so their mind setup stops working. I shall ask Sunni-bro to go outside see any 60 year old man (who has also 2 wives already) in the street and say him "O old man why donot you marry to the grand daughter of your daughter". Well i am sure that old man will either himself or ask any of his son to break the head of Sunni-bro. It is realy pathetic that they ask us to respect companions but on the other hand they give such a bad blaim on their personality. I have not seen in any respectable family that a person married the grand daughter of his daughter. Am i not correct in saying "Simply Nonsense". May Allah remove the glasses of bias from the eyes of our sunni brothers who just say and donot think that they are not raising the status of some one rather insulting them.  :mad:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Here is a post by tahasyed from a while back:

(tahasyed)
Regarding Umm Kulthoom's marriage to Umar, there are three types of narrations in shia books:
1) Those that are just plain silly, and are rejected (those that claim 'Umm Kulthoom' was actually a Jinn whom Allah sent in the *real* Umm Kulthoom's place)
2) Those that are narrated via weak chains and are not accepted
3) Those that are narrated via authentic chains, and are mu'taber (accepted)

From the third (sahih, and accepted) category, here are the narrations:
عن أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام): لمّا خطب عمر قال له أمير المؤمنين: إنّها صبيّة، قال: فلقي العباس فقال له: مالي ؟ أبي بأس ؟ قال: ما ذاك ؟ قال: خطبت إلى ابن أخيك فردّني، أما والله لاعورنّ زمزم ولا أدع لكم مكرمة إلاّ هدمتها، ولاُقيمنَّ عليه شاهدين بأنّه سرق ولاقطعنّ يمينه، فأتاه العباس فأخبره، وسأله أن يجعل الامر إليه فجعله إليه، فزوّجها العباس.

It is narrated on the authority of imam Sadiq as.gif that Umar asked for Umm Kulthoom's, but Ali as.gif did not accept it saying she was too young. Umar met Abbas and asked if there was anything wrong with him. Umar convinces Abbas to talk to Ali, and he accepts. So Abbas goes and talks to Ali as.gif and convinces him to hand the matter over to him, which the imam does. And Abbas marries her off to Umar. (Al-Kafi, 5:346)

Also:
قال: إنّ عليّاً (عليه السلام) لمّا مات عمر أتى أُمّ كلثوم فأخذ بيدها، فانطلق بها إلى بيته.
Imam Sadiq as.gif stated that when Umar died, Ali as.gif came to Umm Kulthoom, took her by the hand, and led her to his house. (Al-Kafi 6:115)

And another:
: إنّ ذلك فرج غصب منّا، إنّ ذلك فرج غصبناه
Imam Sadiq as.gif stated regarding Umm Kulthoom, that "it was a 'faraj' stolen from us, and it was a 'faraj' that we got back (i.e. after Umar's death)". (Al-Kafi 5:346)



#3 omar111

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 05:46 AM

I usually don't answer allegations against Hazrat Umar (ra) by hater shias.But as you say you don't hate him so much,which is a cardinal sin in shiaism,here is C&P article which will answer all your queries.InshaAllah.




Bismillah al-Rahman al-Rahim

The Marriage of `Umar ibn al-Khattab with Umm Kulthum bint `Ali
Allah be well-pleased with all of them


by GF Haddad - Muharram 1425

The marriage of `Umar with Umm Kulthum al-Hashimiyya (6 - 49) the daughter of `Ali and Fatima took place on the year 17 of the Hijra. `Ali gave her away to `Umar upon his request although he was afraid at first that `Umar might not accept her due to her youth and because he wished her to marry one of her cousins among the sons of Ja`far ibn Abi Talib. But `Umar said, “Marry her to me for I swear I have toward her more dedication to excellent companionship than any man on the face of the earth.”

`Umar gave her a dowry of 40,000 dirhams in honor of her lineage to the Messenger of Allah, upon him blessings and peace.

He came to the Muhajirun among the Companions as they sat between the Grave and the Pulpit – their usual place for meeting `Umar to discuss news: “Felicitate this newlywed!” Then he told them he had married `Ali's daughter Umm Kulthum and said: 'I heard the Messenger of Allah say upon him blessings and peace: “Every lineage and means will be severed on the Day of Judgment except my lineage and my means.” I have kept company with him and wished to add this also.' Later he again said, on the pulpit: 'Do not disparage me [for marrying a young girl], for I heard the Prophet say upon him blessings and peace: “On the Judgment Day every means will be cut off and every lineage severed except my lineage.”

It is well-known that our liege-lord `Umar ibn al-Khattab Allah be well-pleased with him, had a particular veneration for the Prophetic Household (Ahl al-Bayt) as illustrated by the following additional reports:

Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã Ibn Sa`d narrated from al-Sha`bi and al-Hasan that al- `Abbas had some need of `Umar one day and said to him: "Commander of the Believers, suppose the uncle of Musa, upon him peace, came to you as a Muslim, how would you treat him?" He replied, "I swear by Allah that I would treat him well!" Al-`Abbas said, "Well, I am the uncle of Muhammad the Prophet - upon him and his House blessings and peace!" `Umar said, "Abu al-Fadl, and what do you suppose? By Allah, your father [`Abd al-Muttalib] is certainly dearer to me than my own father!" He said, "By Allah?" `Umar said, "By Allah, yes! Because I know that he [`Abd al-Muttalib] is dearer to the Messenger of Allah than my own father, therefore I prefer the love of the Messenger of Allah to my love."

(B) A man disparaged `Ali ibn Abi Talib in the presence of `Umar whereupon the latter said: "Do you know the dweller of this grave? He is Muhammad ibn `Abd Allah ibn `Abd al-Muttalib. And `Ali is the son of Abu Talib ibn `Abd al-Muttalib. Therefore, do not mention `Ali except in a good way for if you dislike him you will harm this one in his grave." Narrated by Ahmad with a good chain in Fada'il al-Sahaba (2:641 #1089).

© After `Umar saw al-Husayn ibn `Ali ibn Abi Talib waiting at his door he said to him: "You are more deserving of permission to enter than [my son] `Abd Allah ibn `Umar! You see the goodness that was placed on our head; [therefore] first Allah then you [the Prophetic Household]" and he placed his hand on his head as he spoke. Narrated by Ibn Sa`d, Ibn Rahuyah, and al-Khatib.

(d) `Umar distributed garments to the Companions but found nothing appropriate for al-Hasan and al-Husayn so he sent a message to Yemen and had a kiswa sent, which he offered them. Then he said, “Now I am content.” Narrated by Ibn al-Jawzi in Manaqib `Umar (p. 97).

Umm Kulthum bore `Umar Zayd al-Akbar, known as Ibn al-Khalifatayn (= 'Son of the Two Caliphs' i.e. `Umar and `Ali) who became renowned for his great beauty, and a daughter, Ruqayya.

After `Umar died she remarried, upon `Ali's order, with `Awn ibn Ja`far ibn Abi Talib. When `Awn died `Ali remarried her with `Awn's brother Muhammad ibn Ja`far. Ibn Sa`d and al-Daraqutni claim that when the latter also died young, she remarried with his brother `Abd Allah ibn Ja`far who was widowed of her sister Zaynab bint `Ali – an anachronism since Zaynab outlived Umm Kulthum and was present at Karbala – where her two sons from `Abd Allah, Muhammad and `Awn [both named after their uncles], were killed.

Zayd al-Akbar died a young man, childless, from a stone throw in the time of Mu`awiya. Umm Kulthum died at the same time and Sa`id ibn al-`As ibn Sa`id or Ibn `Umar prayed over them, Allah have mercy on them.

Sources: Ibn al-Jarud, al-Muntaqa [an entirely sahih book] (p. 142); al-Zubayr ibn Bakkar, al-Muntakhab min Azwaj al-Nabi SallAllahu `alayhi wa-Sallam (p. 30-31); al-Dulabi, al-Dhurriyat al-Tahira (p. 62); Ibn Sa`d, Tabaqat (8:337-340=8:463-464); al-Siyar wal-Maghazi (p. 248); Tarikh al-Ya`qubi (2:260); Ibn Shabba's Tarikh al-Madina (2:654); Nasab Quraysh (p. 352); `Abd al-Razzaq, Musannaf (3:465); al-Nasa'i, Sunan (4:71) and Sunan Kubra (1:641); al-Bukhari, Tarikh al-Saghir (1:102); Ibn Qutayba, Ma`arif (p. 107, 122); al-Tabari, Tarikh (4:199 and 5:335); al-Daraqutni, Sunan (2:79); al-Bayhaqi, Sunan Kubra (4:33); Ibn `Abd al-Barr, Isti`ab (4:490-491); al-Nawawi, Tahdhib al-Asma' wal-Lughat (2:267 #1219); al- Dhahabi, Siyar A`lam al-Nubala' (Dar al-Fikr ed. 5:22-24) and Tarikh al- Islam (4:58-59, 4:137-139, 4:227, 5:21); al-Dimyati, Nisa' al-Rasul (p. 128); Ibn Hajar, Isaba (4:492 #1481); Ibn al-Athir, Usd al-Ghaba (7:387-388) and al-Kamil fi al-Tarikh (3:54, 4:12); al-Suyuti, al-Hawi lil-Fatawa (2:179); etc.

The following is a reply to various claims and inaccuracies posted at the following site as of March 1, 2004:

http://www26.brinkst...lshah1/umtu.htm Umme Kalthum's Marriage To Umer

In Mishkat Shareef, it is reported that when Abubakr and Umar asked the holy Prophet for his daughter, Lady Fatima[sa]'s hand the Prophet replied she is too young to marry. If this is correct then think rationally over the fact that, Umme Kulthum[sa] whose mother was too young to marry these people, marries these same personalities, does this make sense?

Observe in the above lines the jump from the hadith "she is too young to marry" to the spin that she "was too young to marry these people".

Rather, as Sharh al-Mishkaat states (Dar al-Fikr ed. 10:476-477), she had been asked at an early time and the Prophet waited, upon him blessings and peace, for specific heavenly revelation concerning Fatima, period.

This is confirmed by the other version of the proposal of the Two Shaykhs of Islam - Allah be well-pleased with them - Abu Bakr and `Umar, in which the Prophet replies upon him and his Family and Companions blessings and peace: "The qada' [concerning this decision] has not been revealed yet."

Secondly, Umer's daughter, Hafsa was a wife of Prophet Muhammad . This makes Hafsa the Step-mother of Hz Fatima and the Step-Grandmother of UmmeKalthum, the daughter of Ali and Fatima. Do you know what this means? It makes Umer the Step-Great Grandfather of UmmeKalthum. The sunnis claim the daughter of Ali married her Great Grandfather? Is such sort of marriage allowed in Islam, please prove from the Quran.
It also makes Hadrat Umar - Allah be well-pleased with him - the step- grandfather of Fatima whom he did ask in marriage and the Prophet upon him blessings and peace, did not reply "This is not allowed in Islam"!

The reason is, this sort of marriage is definitely allowed in Islam and this *is* proven from the Qur'an. Read again the verses defining who is mahram from who is not in Surat al-Nisa'!

Umm Kulthum was the daughter of Ali Ibne Abi Talib. Sunni Historical evidence shows that the marriage of Umm Kulthum and Umar took place in the year 17 Hijri when Umm Kulthum was 5 or 4 years of age. This would put her date of birth to 12 or 13 Hijri. History of Abul Fida, vol I p 171 - al Farooq by Shibli Numani, vol II p 539
The above is a deceptive way of quoting because the sources only mention the date of the marriage as the year 17. They do not say Umm Kulthum was 5 or 4 that year nor anything about her date of birth. This is your own claim inserted as an historical premise, followed by your own conjecture.

Besides, the "History of Abul-Fida" is by the king of Hama, Isma`il ibn `Ali ibn Mahmud (d. 732) and Nu`mani is a contemporary. Surely, they must have an earlier transmitted basis for whatever they supposedly say. However, they did not say anything other than the date of marriage as the year 17.

Ibn Kathir's Tarikh states the year 16 for the marriage of `Umar with Umm Kulthum; so she was between 10 and 12 since her date of birth is mentioned by al-Dhahabi in Siyar A`lam al-Nubala' as around the 6th year after the Hijra. Allah knows best from where the claim that she "was 5 or 4" comes from.

Among the Shi`i sources that narrate the fact of this marriage from Imam Muhammad al-Baqir with the statement "Umm Kulthum bint `Ali ibn Abi Talib died at the same time as her son Zayd ibn `Umar ibn al-Khattab" and the narration from Muhammad ibn al-Hasan that "`Umar ibn al-Khattab married Umm Kulthum bint `Ali `alayhi al-Salam with a dowry of 40,000 dirhams":

1- Agha Burzug al-Tahrani's al-Dhari`a (5:184). 2- `Ali ibn Muhammad al-`Alawi's al-Mujdi fi Ansab al-Talibiyyin (p. 17). 3- Al-Fadil al-Hindi's Kashf al-Litham (2:312). 4- Al-Hurr al-`Amili's Wasa'il al-Shi`a Al al-Bayt (15:19, 17:594, 21:263, 26:314). 5- Muhammad ibn Habib al-Baghdadi's al-Munammaq fi Akhbar Quraysh (p. 301). 6- Al-Muhaqqiq al-Ardabili's Majma` al-Fa'ida (11:530). 7- Al-Muhaqqiq al-Naraqi's Mustanad al-Shi`a (19:452). 8- Al-Muhaqqiq al-Sabzawari's Kifayat al-Ahkam (p. 307). 9- Al-Sayyid Muhammad Sadiq al-Rawhani's Fiqh al-Sadiq (24:496). 10-Al-Shahid al-Thani's Masalik al-Afham (13:270). 11-Al-Shaykh al-Amini's al-Ghadir (6:136-137). 12&13- Al-Shaykh al-Tusi's al-Mabsut (4:272) and Tahdhib al-Ahkam (9:362-363). 14-Al-Shaykh al-Jawahiri's Jawahir al-Kalam (39:308).

Historical evidences show that Hazrat Fatima ( May Allah bless her ) passed away 6 month after the demise of his father,
Her father – Allah bless him and greet him.

and thus her date of death was in the year 11 Hijri, and that Umm Kulthum, daughter of Ali was born in the year 9 Hijri. Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English Version, Tardition 5.546 - Anwarul Hussania, v3, p39
The above reference to al-Bukhari contains nothing about Umm Kulthum. Rather, al-Bukhari narrates in his Tarikh al-Saghir (1:102) - like everyone else - that Umm Kulthum had married `Umar. As for her date of birth is it is 6 Hijri as cited above.

Then how is it possible for Umm Kulthum to be born after the death of Hazrat Fatima (as) if the Sunnis claim that she was married to Omar in the year 17 Hijri at an age of 4 or 5 years, that would put the date of birth as 12 or 13 Hijri, which is long after the death of her mother?!
The Sunnis do not claim that she was 4 or 5 in the year 17 but 11 or 12.

Sunni historical evidence shows that Umm Kulthum (the so-called wife of Umar) died before 50 Hijri, since Imam Hasan (as), Abdullah ibn Umar and Sa'ad bin Abi Waqs offered the funeral prayers.
Not Sa`d ibn Abi Waqqas but Sa`id ibn al-`As (2-59) and he was the imam as the (universally respected) governor of Madina who had dearly wished to marry Umm Kulthum but desisted when he learnt of al-Husayn?s disapproval. It is also possible that he let Ibn `Umar be the imam. In the congregation there was also Abu Qatada (d. 54). This is agreed upon in BOTH the Sunni sources and the 14 Shi`i sources cited above. Some narrations in Ibn Sa`d, al-Bukhari, and al-Bayhaqi state that al-Hasan (d. 49) was part of the congregation, which brings the terminus ante quem for Umm Kulthum?s death to 49.

Also it is worthy to note that Imam Hasan (as) was martyred in the year 50 Hijri. [sources deleted]
Or 49.

But then other references show that Hazrat Umm Kulthum ( Blessings on her, the daughter of Imam Ali and Fatima Az Zahra ) were present in Kerballa during the year 61 Hijri.
ONLY SOME non-Sunni sources that stand out for their unreliability, such as Muruj al-Dahab by the Mu`tazili chronicler (akhbaari) al-Mas`udi (d. 345); Sharh al-Akhbar fi Fada'il al-A'immat al-At-har (3:198) by the ex-Maliki apostate (murtadd cf. Siyar, Fikr ed. 12:284), al-Qadi al-Nu`man ibn Muhammad ibn Mansur al-Maghribi (d. 363); Muthir al-Ahzan by Ibn Nama al-Hilli (d. 645); and Bihar al-Anwar by Muhammad Baqir al-Majlisi (d. 1111) among other similarly unscrupulous sources.

However, that claim is not found in the 14 Shi`i sources cited earlier nor in the Sunni sources.

The Siyar (Fikr ed. 4:418) among other Sunni sources only name the following Ahl al-Bayt women as present at Karbala' and taken prisoner:

- Zaynab and Fatima the daughters of `Ali; - Fatima and Sukayna the daughters of al-Husayn; - al-Rabab al-Kalbiyya the wife of al-Husayn and mother of Sukayna; - Umm Muhammad the daughter of al-Hasan ibn `Ali.

Sukayna is the one that spoke the famous words to Yazid, "Have you taken prisoner the daughters of the Messenger of Allah??" which words are spuriously attributed to Umm Kulthum bint `Ali in some of the non-Sunni accounts such as al-Raghib al-Asfahani's Maqatil al-Talibiyyin (p. 79) and the above-cited sources.

The only Umm Kulthum present in the whole episode of Karbala' was Yazid's own wife, Umm Kulthum bint `Abd Allah ibn `Amir.

Long after the incident of Kerballa Hazrat Zaineb binte Ali ( blessings on her ) died, then it was that Hazrat Abdullah bin Jafer Tayyar were married to Hazrat Umm Kulthum binte Ali (blessings on her ).
It is more likely that `Abd Allah ibn Ja`far (d. 80), unlike his two brothers `Awn and Muhammad [he also named his sons thus], was never married to Umm Kulthum (d. <49) at all but only to her sister zaynab (d. 61).

There is no contradiction to the fact that before Umm Kulthum binte Ali (blessings on her), Hazrat Zaineb (blessings on her ) were married to Abdullah bin Jafer ( blessings on him ).
The marriage of Zaynab to `Abd Allah ibn Ja`far is unquestioned.

Also it is true that till the year 61 Hijri (incident of Kerballa ) Hazrat Zaineb were alive, and that Umm Kulthum binte Ali were married after the year 61 Hijri to Hazrat Abdullah bin Jafer.
Incorrect: Zaynab was at Karbala' but Umm Kulthum had died before 49.

But where does the contradiction lie ? With respect to the first references, the lady married to Omar by the name Umm Kulthum died in the year before 50 Hijri, as Imam Hasan ( as ) had offered her funeral prayers. This leaves us to believe that the Umm Kulthum married to Omar were in fact some other lady and NOT the daughter of Imam Ali (as). Roza tul Ihbab Volume 3 page 585 - Al Bidayah wa al-Nihayah - Tareekhe Khamees Volume 3 page 318
This nonsense is definitely not in the latter two references nor even in the 14 Shi`i sources other than the few discrepant sources I've identified.

The Sunni scholar Ibn Qutaybah in his book "al Maarif " mentioned that all the daughters of Imam Ali(as) were married to the sons of Aqeel and Abbas with a few exceptions, but he did NOT mention the claim that Umm Kulthum (May Allah bless her) were married to Omar. The exceptions were for Ummul Hasan binte Saeed and Fatima. al-Maarif, Ibn Qutaybah, p 80
Wrong.

Ibn Qutayba said in al-Ma`arif (Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-`Ilmiyya, 1987) p. 122:

"THE DAUGHTERS OF `ALI IBN ABI TALIB: As for Zaynab the elder the daughter of Fatima, she was [married] with `Abd Allah ibn Ja`far and gave him children whom we already named. As for Umm Kulthum the elder, also the daughter of Fatima, she was [married] with `Umar ibn al-Khattab and gave him children we also already named. When `Umar was killed Muhammad ibn Ja`far ibn Abi Talib married her. He died before her then `Awn ibn Ja`far ibn Abi Talib married her and she died before him. The rest of `Ali's daughters were married off to the sons of `Aqil and the sons of al-`Abbas except Umm al-Hasan -- she was married to Ja`da ibn Hubayra al-Makhzumi -- and except Fatima -- she was married to Sa`id ibn al-Aswad of Banu al-Harith ibn Asad."

The same Ibn Qutayba also says in the same book (p. 107):

"THE CHILDREN OF `UMAR IBN AL-KHATTAB FROM HIS BLOOD AND THEIR DESCENDENTS: .... also Fatima and Zayd, their mother being Umm Kulthum the daughter of `Ali ibn Abi Talib from his union with Fatima the daughter of the Messenger of Allah upon him blessings and peace. It is also said that Umm Kulthum's daughter from `Umar was named Ruqayya...."

For those who claim that such marriage happened; kindly answer the following questions.

What was the age for Omar at the time of the marriage ?

Approximately forty-seven. Umm Kulthum was between 10 and 12.

When Omar died what was the age of Umm Kulthum ?
Between 17 and 19. `Umar was fifty-four or five.

Could you briefly state the names of the wives of Omar?
1. `Atika bint Zayd ibn `Amr al-`Adawiyya. 2. Fukayha who gave him offspring. [Mulk al-yamin] 3. Luhayya al-Yamaniyya who gave him `Abd al-Rahman al- Asghar or al-Awsat, the latter known as Abu Shahma whom `Umar whipped for drunkenness. [May have been mulk al-yamin] 4. Mulayka bint Abi Umayya al-Khuza`iyya who may have given him `Ubayd Allah. 5. Qariba bint Abi Umayya al-Makhzumiyya [in Jahiliyya]. 6. Subay`a bint al-Harith al-Aslamiyya. 7. Umm `Asim Jamila bint Thabit al-Awsiyya who gave him `Asim. 8. Umm Hakim bint al-Harith al-Makhzumiyya who gave him Fatima. 9. Umm Kulthum bint `Ali al-Hashimiyya who gave him Ruqayya and Zayd al-Akbar but Ibn Qutayba in the Ma`arif names them Fatima and Zayd. 10. Umm Kulthum bint (`Amr ibn) Jarwal al-Khuza`iyya who gave him Zayd al-Asghar and `Ubayd Allah [in Jahiliyya] and whom al-Waqidi also calls Mulayka bint Jarwal, followed in this by Ibn Qutayba, Ibn Kathir, and Ibn al-Athir. 11. Zaynab bint Maz`un al-Jumahi who gave him `Abd Allah, Hafsa, and `Abd al-Rahman al-Akbar [in Jahiliyya and Islam].

Could you assert to the truthfulness of the character of the person who narrated this story ?
There are so many that it is mutawatir (mass-transmitted) including from the Imams of Ahl al-Bayt such as Ja`far al-Sadiq, from his father.

( I am talking about Zubair bin Bakar ) ?
He is "thiqa thabt" (extremely trustworthy) according to al- Baghawi and al-Khatib while al-Daraqutni, al-Dhahabi, Ibn Hajar and others simply grade him thiqa, which is the highest grade of reliability.

Do you know how many children were born of Umm Kulthum with the marriage to Omar ?
Two: a boy and a girl.

Who was this Umm Kulthum then ?
The daughter of `Ali and Fatima, raghima anfuk.

It would be appropriate to mention the other wives of Omar at this juncture, not only during his pagan days but also after embracing Islam. His first wife was Zainab sister of Uthman b. Mazun. His second wife was Qariba, daughter of Ibn Umait ul Makzami, and sister of the Holy Prophet's wife Umm Salma ( May Allah be pleased with her ). She was divorced in 6 A.H after the conclusion of the Truce of Hudaibiya. His third wife was Malaika, daughter of Jarul al Khuzai, who was also called Umm Kulthum, also she did not embrace Islam and was divorced in 6 A.H. On arrival at Medinah he married Jamila, daughter of Asim b. Thabit who was high placed Ansari and had fought at Badr. Jamila first name was Asia which the Holy Prophet changed to Jamila on her conversion to Islam. Omar divorced her also for some unknown reason. Omar also had other wives namely, Umm Hakim, daughter of al Harith b. Hisham al Makhzumi, Fukhia Yamania and Atika, daughter of Zaid b. Amr b. Nafil. Al Faruq - Volume II by Shibli Numani English Translation
See the list I gave.

... There was another Umm Kulthum who had been his wife but Historians make a clear distinction between the two ...
.... Yes, and they assert that he married both....

Now I would like to pose the following questions: Who is this other Umm Kulthum that has been mentioned in the historical references ? Is she the same Umm Kulthum that was divorced ( Malaika the third wife ) in 6 A.H ?
According to al-Waqidi, yes.

We also know that there were ' two ' Umm Kulthum's as Shibli Numani writes above, correct ?
Definitely.

Or is she the same Umm Kulthum that is the daughter of Abu Bakr ? If yes then why doesn't the author point out so ? What is the clear distinction then ?
The distinction is clear as day, they were two different persons. Move on.

There were at least nine Companions named Umm Kulthum. Add the Umm Kulthums of Jahiliyya and those of the Tabi`in. The fact that it was a popular proper noun might be confusing to some.

Here is the answer by from the historical documents: After the death of Abu Bakr a daughter was born to him that was named Umm Kulthum. Please refer to the following Sunni references to confirm this fact. [deleted]
This fact is undoubted and irrelevant.

Please also do bear in mind that Abu Bakr died in the year 13 A.H as mentioned in the following Sunni book of reference. [deleted]
Ditto.

This would imply that the original claim made by the first references I gave for the age of Umm Kulthum at the time of marriage of 4 or 5 years would stand correct.
Actually, you gave no references to that effect but conjectured the age yourself, which we established was completely inaccurate. However, Umm Kulthum bint Abi Bakr al-Siddiq might well have been 3 or 4 at the time.

Since for Umm Kulthum binte Abu Bakr to be born in 13 A.H and married in 17 A.H would give her an age of 4 years. Since Aisha was the elder sister of Umm Kulthum binte Abu Bakr, for this reason Omar had sent for Umm Kulthum hand's to Aisha, and Aisha had accepted this. Tareekhe Khamees Volume 2 page 267 - Tareekhe Kamil Volume 3 page 21 - Al Istiab by Ibn Abdul Barr Volume 2 page 795
Except that the same sources state that Umm Kulthum bint Abi Bakr *adamantly rejected* `Umar's proposal, after which `A'isha supposedly consulted `Amr ibn al-`As who supposedly dissuaded `Umar from pursuing the matter and supposedly persuaded him to ask for `Ali's daughter instead.

However, the same sources all agree with the remainder of the sources to the fact that `Umar ibn al-Khattab married the daughter of `Ali and Fatima, Allah be well-pleased with all of them, as referenced above.

Nor is there any contradiction between the two incidents supposing the proposal to Abu Bakr?s daughter actually took place and fell through.

This leaves us no doubt to believe that Umm Kulthum who was the daughter of Abu Bakr was married to Omar and NOT Umm Kulthum the daugher of Imam Ali (as) !!!
I have not seen this incoherent claim earlier than in the pages of al-Anwar al-`Alawiyya wal-Asrar al-Murtadawiyya (p. 436) by an ignoramus named al-Shaykh Ja`far al-Naqdi (d. 1370) who had the gall to introduce this fantasy with the words: "I say, I saw in a book whose title I do not remember at the moment, that of the Imams of guidance said, upon them peace....." A lie, no transmission chain, and no source -- Shi`ism in a nutshell.

Rather, as all of the above Sunni and Shi`i sources already showed, there is no doubt that the wife of `Umar was Umm Kulthum the daughter of `Ali.

In addition:

When `Ali was struck down by Ibn Muljam, Umm Kulthum said: "Ma li wali- Salat al-ghadat, qutila zawji Amir al-mu'minin salata al-ghadah, wa-qutila abi Salata al-ghadah! - What does the morning prayer want with me? My husband the Commander of the believers was killed at the morning prayer and my father was killed at the morning prayer!"

Narrated from al-Asbagh al-Hanzali by Ibn `Asakir in Tarikh Dimashq (42:555) cf. al-Dhahabi, Tarikh al-Islam (3:648-649) and Ibn Kathir, Bidaya (8:14).

Perhaps it was another `Ali, another Ibn Muljam, another Umm Kulthum, another Commander of the believers? Like they come up with another Tabari, another Ibn Qutayba......

Khateeb in his Tar'eekh even mentions that she tells her father that he called me, kissed me and then grabbed my ankle and said, "tell you father that I am pleased!
Yes, at the time `Ali himself had sent her to `Umar, and that report does state that he had dressed her up. `Abd al-Razzaq's version of the same report in his Musannaf (6:163 #10353) specifies that `Ali had previously told `Umar: "I shall send her to you and, if you agree, then she is your wife and I have married her to you."

Narrated in al-Khatib's Tarikh Baghdad (6:182), entry on Ibrahim ibn Mihran ibn Rustum al-Marwazi, with a fair chain according to Dr. Khaldun al-Ahdab in his book Zawa'id Tarikh Baghdad (5:209-214 #901). Allah knows best.

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#4 Aghamalang

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 06:06 AM

salaams

ya ali madad

the narrations cited by Taha and Sunni narrations have been addressed in answering-ansar's article on this topic.

Also worthy of note is the dishonesty of Taha, wherein he claims that the Usul-e-Kafi narration states that Abbas then married Umme Kalthum to Umar - it doesnt say anything such thing in the narration, it end with Maula 'Ali give his daughter to Abbas.

From the Sunni side Mufti Ghulam Rasool has refuted this marriage from many angles in Hasab aur Nasab and his learning is far greater than Hadad,

#5 Firoz Ali

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 06:19 AM

Sister Aliya had posted this before-- from answering ansar .

So who was Umme Kalthum wife of Umar?


An analysis of the Ahl'ul Sunnah traditions makes it clear that the Umme Kalthum being described was a child (Sagheera) so young that she was still milk fed (Sabeeya) - this Umme Kalthum could not have been more than five years of age, at the time of marriage in 17 Hijri. Umme Kalthum binte Fatima  as we have already discussed was 11 / 12 years of age in 17 Hijri and hence was baligh - and according to Afriki's own admission was of marriageable age - she could not be described as Sabeeya or Sagheera - as was the status of Umar's wife in 17 Hijri.


Umar had several wives called Umme Kalthum


History establishes that Umar had several wives called Umme Kalthum:



Umme Kalthum Jameela binte Asim bin Thabit - the mother of Asim bin Umar.
(Tareekh Khamees Volume 2 page 251).


Umme Kalthum binte Jarweela Khuzeema - Her actual name was Maleeka. She was the mother of Zaid bin Umar.
(Tareekh Kamil Volume 3 page 22).


Umme Kalthum binte Ukba bin Abi Mayyath - Zuhri narrates that during the period of jahiliyya she was the wife of Amr bin Aas. She left him and embraced Islam. Her relatives approached Rasulullah (s) and asked that she be returned. Rasulullah (s) replied 'Any woman that embraces Islam cannot be returned, Amr bin Aas was a kaffir at the time, she was not returned and Umar married her.
(Sharh Bukhari, by Qasthalani Volume 4 page 349).


Umme Kalthum binte Rahab.
(Sunan Abu Daud and Ibn Majah)


Umme Kalthum binte Abu Bakr - Born to Asma binte Umais. She was also the mother of Muhammad bin Abu Bakr. (Alam al Nisa Volume 4 page 250). She was born in 12 Hijri, after the death of Abu Bakr (Tabari Volume 2 page 50; Tareekh Kamil Volume 2 page 161; Tareekh Khamees Volume 2 page 267; al Isaba page 286) Asma married Imam 'Ali  and the young Umme Kalthum joined her mother in the house of Imam 'Ali .
Sunni research scholar Malik Daulath Abadi in "Hidayaath al Saud" page 359 states:


"Asma binte Amees was initially the wife of Ja'far bin Tayyar then she married Abu Bakr from this relationship two children were born a boy and a girl called Umme Kalthum. After that she married Hadhrath 'Ali and Umme Kalthum came into his house. This is the Umme Kalthum that Umar married…she died at a young age, whilst residing in the house of Umar. She left no children".

Worthy of note is the fact that die-hard Deobandi and enemy of the Shi'a Allamah Doust Muhammad Quraishi in his article 'WHO WAS HADHRAT ALI RADHIALLAHU-ANHU)?' also admitted that:

"89. For the upbringing of the orphan Muhammad bin Abu Bakr , Hadrath Ali  married his mother Asma binte Umais ".

Here is the link:
Jamiat.org.za/isinfo/aliwho.html

We shall Inshallah expand on this whole matter in greater depth in the next chapter. Suffice it to say for the moment, Asma married Imam 'Ali and the young Umme Kalthum  was in the home of Imam 'Ali  she was viewed as Umme Kalthum binte 'Ali. In 17 Hijri she would have been 5 years of age and would was indeed Sagheera (a child) and could also have been deemed Sabeeya (milk fed) since it was common to breast feed a child until they were infants. It was this five-year-old child that Umar chose to marry when he was in his mid fifties.

Let us now look deeper into this matter, and pose some questions for Afriki…


The marriage of fifty five year old Umar ibn al Khattab to five year old Umme Kalthum binte Abu Bakr


We read in Kanz al Ummal Volume 7 page 98:

"Umar proposed to marry Umme Kalthum binte Abu Bakr, and made the proposal to Ayesha. Ayesha replied 'She is too young, but where we will she go without you? Umme Kalthum approached Ayesha and said 'I have heard that you want to marry me to Umar. He will give me a tough life; I am in need of a young man, who loves this world. If you marry me to Umar then I shall complain before Rasulullah. Ayesha then summoned Amr bin Aas who said 'I shall deal with the matter'. Amr spoke to Umar, after a general conversation he said 'I hear that you intend on marrying'. Umar replied 'Yes'. Amr bin Aas asked 'Who?' Umar replied 'Umme Kalthum binte Abu Bakr'. Amr then said 'She is a child that shall cry for her father every day'. Umar then said 'Did Ayesha send you?'

This tradition raises some questions that we challenge Afriki and his fellow defenders of the Sahaba to answer:



Umme Kalthum was under age so why did Ayesha accept Umar's invitation?

If she was underage then why did the 55 year old khalifa want to marry her?

When Ayesha was happy with the matter, why was Umme Kalthum complaining about the second khalifa?

Abu Bakr's daughter clearly had no interest in religion, why was the Khalifa's daughter inclined in this way?

We read in Sahih al Bukhari Bab ul Nikah, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 27 that Rasulullah (s) said ' you should marry the religious woman (otherwise) you will be a losers' - this being the case why did Umar want to marry an individual who clearly had no interest with the Deen?

Why was the Khalifa's daughter desirous to marry a wealthy young man?

Why did Umme Kalthum threaten to complain before Rasulullah (s) if she was married to Umar?


Worthy of note is the fact that she:



Complains of Umar's nomadic lifestyle

Threatens to complain before Rasulullah (s) if the marriage takes place

Initiates a desire to marry a rich man


Would a five-year old girl really make such comments? Are these not the comments of an adolescent / mature female? Clearly embarrassed by Umar's marriage with a five-year-old the scrupulous narrators sought to cover up her age by portraying her as older.

Let us also cite al Bidaya wa al Nihaya Volume 7 page 139:

"Umar asked Ayesha for permission to marry Umme Kalthum binte Abu Bakr, who was underage. Ayesha spoke to Umme Kalthum who said . 'No as he leads a tough lifestyle'. Ayesha then said 'You don't wish to marry Ameerul Momineen?' Umme Kalthum said 'No as his life is tough'. Ayesha then spoke with Amr bin Aas who forced Umar to withdraw his proposal".

Our questions here are as follows:



When Abu Bakr's daughter was underage, what dawned on Umar to ask for her hand, by seeking the consent of her elder sister Ayesha?

Ayesha was clearly aware of the young age of her sister, why did she not simply reject the offer outright?

Can you really convince a five-year-old girl to get married?

Would a five-year-old girl give this type of reply?


Yet again the embarrassed Ahl'ul Sunnah narrators have sought to portray Umme Kalthum binte Abu Bakr as older than she actually was, so as to cover up Umar's actions.

Let us now turn to Tareekh Kamil Volume 3 page 27 Dhikr Zawaaj Umar:

"Umar approached Ayesha with a proposal to marry Umme Kalthum. Umme Kalthum replied 'I don't want him, he leads a tough life, and is stern towards women'. Ayesha then asked for the assistance of Amr bin Aas in the matter. Amr said 'I shall deal with it'. Amr said to Umar 'I ask for Allah's forgiveness'. Umar asked 'In relation to what?' Amr said 'I have received information that you have asked for the hand of Umme Kalthum'. Umar replied 'Yes am I not deserving of this?' Amr replied 'Brother it is not that, she is a mere child brought up under the guardianship of Ameerul Momineen (Commander of the Faithful). You are a stern mannered individual, we fear you, and do not wish to clash with you, if this child opposes you, you shall become angry, then what will happen to the child? You will have failed to look after the daughter of Abu Bakr, in a manner that was incumbent on you'. Umar then said 'But I have already spoken to Ayesha'. Amr replied 'I have responsibility with regards to Ayesha'.

We would like to ask Afriki:



Why did Amr bin Aas deem Umar's intention to be a serious matter from which he sought Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì's forgiveness?

Why did Umar want to marry this underage orphan girl?


Two points from the text are also worthy of note here:



Who was Ameerul Momineen here? It could not have been Abu Bakr since he was not known by this title, and Ahl'ul Sunnah themselves believe Umar gave himself this title.


If we accept that Ameerul Momineen here refers to Abu Bakr, then again this makes no sense since Umme Kalthum never saw her father, he died whilst she was still in her mother's womb.


Let us now analyse the matter, as recorded by Tareekh Tabari Volume 5 page 2734, Dhikr Zawaj Umar:

"Umar proposed to marry Umme Kalthum binte Abu Bakr, she was an underage child. He discussed the matter with Ayesha, she said the decision is in her hands. Umme Kalthum said 'I am not happy with regards to Umar. Ayesha said 'You don't want Ameer'ul Momineen [Commander of the Faithful]? She replied he leads a frugal existence and is tough towards women" Ayesha then sent a message to Amr bin Aas telling him. Amr replied 'Let me handle it'. He [Amr] approached Umar and said 'Commander of the faithful, I have heard some news from which I invoke God's name to protect you!". Umar asked 'What is the matter?' Amr said 'You are seeking the hand if Umme Kalthum binte 'Abu Bakr. Umar replied 'Do you not think I am worthy of her or she for me? [Amr] said, 'Neither but she was brought up with kindness and gentleness under the protection of the Mother of the Believers. You are rough and ready. But we are in awe of you and cannot turn you away from something that is natural to you. What will happen if she [Umme Kalthum] disobeys you on a matter and punish her physically? You will taken 'Abu Bakr's place as his child [protector] in a way that does not befit you'. Umar replied 'But what about Ayesha, I have already told her [that I will marry Umme Kalthum]? Amr said 'I shall deal with it on your behalf. Also I shall show someone better, Umme Kalthum binte 'Ali, through who you shall acquire a relationship with the Messenger of God"

If we are to accept this account, then it suggests that initially Umar proposed to marry Umme Kalthum binte 'Abu Bakr and then Umme Kalthum binte 'Ali . The alleged marriage to Umme Kalthum  took place in 17 Hijri, from Tabari we can deduce that Umar's proposal to Umme Kalthum binte Abu Bakr occurred in the same year, when she was just an infant of five. This reference puts to rest any Nasibi attempts to try and suggest that Umar made the proposal when she was baligh.

Again we ask some questions:



Why was Umar seeking to use his influence over Ayesha so that he could marry her under age sister?

Is it really believable that an underage girl would be able to decide on such a matter, particularly via such a comprehensive rebuttal?

Can a woman really advise a five-year-old girl on the merits of marrying such an individual?

If the daughter of Abu Bakr was under age why did the 55-year-old khalifa want to marry her?

If the girl was underage why did Ayesha not point this out to Umar?

Why did Umme Kalthum reject Umar the great khalifa by highlighting such defects in his character?

If the concern of Amr bin Aas was that Umar's use of physical force would pain Abu Bakr, then why did he not share the same concerns with regard to the daughter of Sayyida Fatima ?

In the eyes of Rasulullah (s) who's pain is more significant that of Abu Bakr or that of Sayyida Fatima ?


Let us now move on to another authentic Sunni text Tareekh Khamees Volume 2 page 239 Dhikr Zawaaj Umar:

"Umme Kalthum was the daughter of Abu Bakr, she was a young girl. Her mother was a Christian, when Abu Bakr died she was pregnant - she was hence born after Abu Bakr's death. When she grew older Umar ibn al Khattab proposed to marry her, Ayesha accepted the proposal, but Umme Kalthum binte 'Ali rejected the proposal, Ayesha therefore made some excuses and the matter was discontinued"

We would like to raise some questions:



The daughter of Abu Bakr was born AFTER he died in 13 Hijri. This marriage occurred in 17 Hijri, how mature could this girl have become in a space of five years? Would she really have been physically capable of marrying 55 year old Umar?

If the girl was born after her father's death, then why did Umar contemplate plans to marry this five-year-old girl?

Would any responsible adult marry her five-year-old sister to a 55-year-old man?


Worthy of note is the fact that at one point the narrator makes reference to Umme Kalthum binte Abu Bakr, and yet the same text later on refers to Umme Kalthum binte 'Ali. This is clear evidence that these dishonest narrators have sought to switch names to divert attention away from Umar's desire to marry an underage girl. Tareekh Khamees is a classical Ahl'ul Sunnah text, not the hand of Ibn Saba, and here it is clearly that Nasibi hands had sought to change facts by making this tactical name change.

Let us analyse the way that Ibn Qutaybah recorded this event in al Maarif page 76, Dhikr Aulad 'Abu Bakr:

"Umar approached Ayesha with a proposal to marry Umme Kalthum binte Abu Bakr. Ayesha accepted the proposal. Umme Kalthum did not like the proposal, so Ayesha made an excuse and the matter was brought to a close".

Here we shall just raise one question:

When Ayesha was fully aware of the young tender child age of her sister how did she still accept Umar's marriage proposal?

Let us now cite the final reference in this section, that from Ahl'ul Sunnah's esteemed work Riyadh al Nadira Volume 1 page 303, Dhikr Aulad Abu Bakr:

Umme Kalthum was the underage (Sagheera) daughter of Abu Bakr, she was born after Abu Bakr died. When she grew older Umar approached Ayesha with a proposal to marry her. Ayesha accepted the proposal, but Umme Kalthum did not like the idea, Ayesha made an excuse and Umar withdrew his proposal".

The reference has portrayed Abu Bakr's as underage so why did it dawn on 55 year old to marry her?


Overall summary and analysis of the texts


In summary these texts share the following common themes:



55 year old Khalifa Umar proposed to marry Umme Kalthum binte 'Abu Bakr

The proposal was accepted by Ayesha

Umme Kalthum rejected the proposal on account of Umar's frugal lifestyle and his attitude towards women.

As a result of this opposition the marriage did not come into fruition.


When (1) & (2) are established then point (3) remains the only thing that prevented this proposal from blossoming into marriage (if we are indeed to accept these Sunni accounts) - namely the rejection of Umar by Umme Kalthum binte 'Abu Bakr. This rejection is simply not possible, is it really believable that a five year old girl would be competent enough to:



Understand the concept of marriage?

Reject the proposal, expressing her assessment of Umar, namely his lifestyle and attitude towards women?


Think rationally, can a five-year-old girl really have the intelligence to make such a coherent rejection? Clearly not, the fact is the Salaf scholars that recorded this wonderful event had sought their utmost to protect Umar's character and hence tried to make Abu Bakr's daughter sound older than her true age, and that it was this mature conscious rejection brought this matter to a close. The reality is this was simply not possible, no five-year-old girl can make such an eloquent rejection.

One of the key books of fatwa on women related issues by contemporary Salafi scholars is "Islamic Fatwa Regarding Women" compiled by Muhammed al-Musnad and translated by Jamal Zarabozo. In Chapter 9, questions related to marriage under the sub heading 'The Young Lady is not to be Forced to Marry a Man She Does Not Want to Marry', Imam of the Salafi Nasibi Shaykh bin Baz stated:

"…The father must seek her permission if she is nine years of age or above. Similarly, her other guardians may not marry her off except by her permission. This is obligatory upon all of them. If one is married without permission, then the marriage is not valid. This is because one of the conditions of the marriage is that both partners accept the marriage. If she is married without her permission, by threat or coercion, then the marriage is not valid. The only exception is in the case of the father and his daughter who is less than nine years of age. There is no harm if he gets her married while she is less than nine years old, according to the correct opinion. This is based on the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) marrying Ayesha without her consent when she was less than nine years old, as is stated in authentic Hadith".

This reference makes it clear that in the eyes of the Salafi, marriage with an underage girl is permissible and her consent is not required. Ayesha's sister Umm Kalthum was just five years of age when Umar made the proposal, Ayesha accepted, and according to bin Baz, her sister's consent would not be required under the Shari'a. Clearly bin Baz passed this fatwa with an awareness that a pre pubescent girl is not in the position to make a decision on such a matter. When Ayesha gave her consent, then it is not logical that she would then seek to ascertain the views of her five-year-old sister.

When Ayesha despite the young age of her sister made that decision on her behalf by accepting the proposal, then the marriage did indeed occur, since Umme Kalthum was not mature enough to decide on the matter. Once the offer and acceptance had taken place there existed no bar on this marriage occurring.

Despite the concerns of Amr bin Aas and the bride to be, the happy marriage was finally agreed. The texts of Ahl'ul Sunnah state clearly that Umar approached Ayesha directly with the marriage proposal and she agreed.
1. Tareekh Kamil Volume 3 page 41;
2. Tareekh Khamees Volume 2 page 267;
3. al Istiab Volume 2 page 795

Still embarrassed by the fact that the elderly second khalifa had the urge to marry a five year old girl, Nasibi fabricators then felt the better approach would be to swap the names of underage Umme Kalthum binte Abu Bakr with that of Umme Kalthum binte 'Ali, by doing so they had a three fold aim, they wanted to:



Cover up Umar's unhealthy liking for an under age girl.

Exalt the rank / status of Umar

Paint a romantic image of cordial relations between Imam 'Ali  and Umar


Imam 'Ali  was not happy with the matter, but the real executors who had a say over Umme Kalthum's well being were the family of Abu Bakr. Since Hadhrath Ayesha was the head of the family, the matter was in her hands, and we read in the Hanafi madhabs esteemed book of Fiqh, Fatawa-i-'Alamgiri vol 1. Pg. 728 that when a mother does / remarries and a maternal grandmother is absent, then the sister is entitled to custody (Hizanah) of her infant child. The fact that the names were the same gave the Nasibi the opportunity to exploit the situation and present a version that did not concur with the actual facts, they changed the name binte Abu Bakr to Binte 'Ali, but through their own stupidity they failed to amend the rest of their texts. As such we were presented with narration's where the Umme Kalthum in question was so young that she was still being breast fed. Umar married only one Umme Kalthum in 17 Hijri and this was the daughter of Abu Bakr.


The aims behind marriage


Whilst Umar's desire to marry a five year old girl is despicable to any sane mind, for those die hard defenders of Umar, we would like to pose this question:

Marriage serves a number of key objectives:



Every man has a natural instinct for a woman's companionship

It is a means to produce offspring, and seek happiness from them

Partners can reap the benefits of a comfortable life together

It can have some type of worldly / materialistic benefit

It can carry some religious benefit


When it is clear that not a single one of these aims would have been fulfilled by Umar's marriage to Umme Kalthum binte Abu Bakr, why did he deem it necessary marry this five year old child, particularly when he already had wives to fulfil the above aims?'

This is a question that the illegitimate descendants of Marwan and Mu'awiya will never be able to answer. They can present as many excuses as they like to explain Umar's innovations, but they will never be able to convince their own followers let alone the Shi'a that the elderly second khalifa was perfectly within his rights to consummate marriage with a five year old girl. Such a marriage was perfectly within the practices of the family of Abu Bakr which is why Ayesha had no qualms in rejecting it, for according to al Sunnah Ayesha was herself married to Rasulullah (s) at the age of six. If Ayesha could be married at the age of six, then her sister could likewise marry at the age of five. The family of Abu Bakr and Umar had always been close, in the same way that both individuals stuck closely to one another at Saqifa. Umar's marriage to Abu Bakr's daughter further cemented this friendship.


These traditions disrespect three personalities




Hadhrath Ayesha - Having agreed to the proposal with Umar the Khalifa, she then breaches the agreement by making up an excuse. This type of behaviour is like those of hypocritical women, not becoming of a momin (believing) woman let alone Umm'ul Momineen.


Hadhrath Umar - the comments of Umme Kalthum completely destroy Umar's character, for Umme Kalthum hated his lifestyle and rejected him on this count.


Umme Kalthum - Questions can be raised as to how a materialistic minded daughter of Khalifa Abu Bakr vented such hatred for the esteemed character - Umar and openly expressed a desire to marry a young man.



Umar's motive behind marrying Umme Kalthum binte Abu Bakr


Umar's proposal for the hand of Umme Kalthum binte Abu Bakr served a number of advantages. Umme Kalthum was the younger sister of Ayesha the wife of Rasulullah (s) hence this marriage would expand Umar's rank threefold:



Ayesha would become his sister in law

It would have further increased his relationship to Rasulullah (s)

He would become the son in law of the deceased Abu Bakr. In this connection he owed Abu Bakr two favours:





We learn in Sahih al Bukhari Bab ul Nikah that Rasulullah (s) married Hafsa after Abu Bakr turned down the initial offer.

Ignoring the concept of Shura / elections and the protestations of the Sahaba, Abu Bakr appointed Umar as his Khalifa.


An 'in law' relationship and station as Khalifa were positions that were attained thanks to Abu Bakr. Umar was forever indebted to Ibn Abu Quhafa and hence he wanted to repay this debt by marrying his daughter and exalting her to the status of the 'The first lady' over the Muslims



#6 Aabiss_Shakari

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 09:19 AM

Well there might be reports in Shia sources as well. But i donot care i need the answer of this simple question. Can any sunni tell me a single honorable family in which "An old 60 years old man would have married to a very young grand daughter of his daughter". Umer was father of Hafsa then how can we imagine that Umer would have wished to marry grand daughter of his daughter. Well if an Old man of this time would have wished to marry the grand daughter of his daughter then his own daughter would definately say to him " O father, are you in senses that you have the desire to marry my grand daughter". I suggest Sunni fellows to follow this Sunnah of Umer in their own families and donot insult the great family of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

#7 omarkhazim

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 09:48 AM

Well there might be reports in Shia sources as well. But i donot care i need the answer of this simple question. Can any sunni tell me a single honorable family in which "An old 60 years old man would have married to a very young grand daughter of his daughter". Umer was father of Hafsa then how can we imagine that Umer would have wished to marry grand daughter of his daughter. Well if an Old man of this time would have wished to marry the grand daughter of his daughter then his own daughter would definately say to him " O father, are you in senses that you have the desire to marry my grand daughter". I suggest Sunni fellows to follow this Sunnah of Umer in their own families and donot insult the great family of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Don't mix Shaaban with Ramadhan !

Hafsa (daughter of Umar (ra) and wife of the Holy Prophet (pbuh)) was not the grand mother of Um Kalthum (ra).

Hafsa (ra) DID NOT have any children from the Prophet (pbuh).

There is NO BLOOD connection between Umar (ra) and Um Kalthum (ra), the daughter, yes that's right, of Ali (ra). Therefore, Islamically, the marriage is valid and there is no problem with it, at all ! (and age is irrelevent in Islam, as you know - more so then, than now)

To you, it is a matter of life and death distancing between Umar (ra) and Ali (ra), even if that means denying facts.
Do some further search (in including some Shia sources), and you will find the truth inshallah.

#8 Aliya

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 11:57 AM

since technically, the wives of the Prophet (pbuh)&HP would be step mothers to his children, then the children of his children would be their step-grandchildren. The argument Bro. Khurram Jafri is presenting is valid, and not changed by semantics. MUCH more believable that Umar married the daughter of his best friend, Umm Kulthum bint Abu Bakr, who was living in Imam Ali's (as) home, after Imam Ali (as) married Abu Bakr's widow.

#9 omar111

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 02:42 PM

When the report is confirmed by shia and sunni sources than what is the use of using your own faulty logic?
as far as sunna is concerned.What was the age difference between the Prophet (pbuh) and Hazrat Ayesha (as) ?Are shia now even denying the sunnah of Prophet?
And the Prophet by marrying the wife of his adopted son ended the false prohibitions to marriage.

But what will change for shias if it is proved.Every khalif except Ali was the Father In Law of Prophet.The prophet married their daughters to give them respect.But do the hater shias respect them?

#10 Aliya

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 03:02 PM

historical evidence suggests that Aisha was at least 15 years old when she married the Prophet (pbuh)&HP. This is also backed up by hadiths that do not refer to her specific age, but rather her role in certain things, and certain events that happened during her life, which would be ludicrous if she were really as young as the hadiths that state her age would have us believe.

And so what does the other caliphs being fathers in law of the Prophet (pbuh)&HP prove except that 1. ALi (as) was much younger than the other caliphs, and 2. had not been married to anyone outside the family of the Prophet (pbuh)&HP to have children with during the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh)&HP (and Bibi Fatima's (as) lifetime for that matter)? hardly conclusive evidence of the 3's status. In fact, Prophet (pbuh)&HP rejected the first two's proposal for the hand of Bibi Fatima (as) in marriage (and since Prophet (pbuh)&HP waited for the decision to be made by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì it seems their proposals were rejected by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì as well :))

And if you're going to start accepting EVERYTHING that's common between shia and sunni hadith... you'll be SHIA in no time :D It's the acceptance of things ONLY found in sunni hadith that make you sunni after all, since shias show time after time our beliefs from your books :D

Edited by Aliya, 28 November 2005 - 03:04 PM.


#11 Link

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 03:35 PM

(salam)

omar if u look at ALL reports, you will see past historic interpetation


sunni research scholar Malik Daulath Abadi in "Hidayaath al Saud" page 359 states:

"Asma binte Amees was initially the wife of Jafer bin Tayyar then she married Abu Bakr from this relationship two children were born a boy and a girl called Umme Kalthum. After that she married Hadhrath 'Ali and Umme Kalthum came into his house. This is the Umme Kalthum that Umar married…".


We read in Nasehkul Tawareekh Volume 3 page 408:

"Umar bin Adheena asked Imam Jafer Sadiq 'People claim that 'Ali married his daughter to such a person'. The Imam, who was until then sitting down, stood up and said angrily, "Whoever holds such a viewpoint is misled." Subhanallah! Was Imam 'Ali unable to free his daughter from their clutches? He could have stood between them and her to protect, they have fabricated a lie".



http://www.shiachat....622&hl=daughter

here is a complete refutation http://www.freewebto.....s Exposed.htm

#12 omar111

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 04:40 PM

Aliya,Nov 28 2005, 02:00 PM]

historical evidence suggests that Aisha was at least 15 years old when she married the Prophet (pbuh)&HP. This is also backed up by hadiths that do not refer to her specific age, but rather her role in certain things, and certain events that happened during her life, which would be ludicrous if she were really as young as the hadiths that state her age would have us believe

.

Maybe we should arrange a debate between you and Ali Sina. :D And even sistani accept that Hazrat ayesha (as) was 6/9 years old.But ofcourse no shia reference is allowed here.

And so what does the other caliphs being fathers in law of the Prophet (pbuh)&HP prove except that 1. ALi (as) was much younger than the other caliphs, and 2. had not been married to anyone outside the family of the Prophet (pbuh)&HP to have children with during the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh)&HP (and Bibi Fatima's (as) lifetime for that matter)? hardly conclusive evidence of the 3's status. In fact, Prophet (pbuh)&HP rejected the first two's proposal for the hand of Bibi Fatima (as) in marriage (and since Prophet (pbuh)&HP waited for the decision to be made by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì it seems their proposals were rejected by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì as well :))



So if you don't believe that marriage give status than why do you tell tales about the twelve imam's mother?And why so bent upon disproving the marriage when it gives no status if Umar (ra) was his son in Law or not?
In Mishkat Shareef, it is reported that when Abubakr and Umar asked the holy Prophet for his daughter, Lady Fatima[sa]'s hand the Prophet replied she is too young to marry. If this is correct then think rationally over the fact that, Umme Kulthum[sa] whose mother was too young to marry these people, marries these same personalities, does this make sense?

Observe in the above lines the jump from the hadith "she is too young to marry" to the spin that she "was too young to marry these people".

Rather, as Sharh al-Mishkaat states (Dar al-Fikr ed. 10:476-477), she had been asked at an early time and the Prophet waited, upon him blessings and peace, for specific heavenly revelation concerning Fatima, period.

This is confirmed by the other version of the proposal of the Two Shaykhs of Islam - Allah be well-pleased with them - Abu Bakr and `Umar, in which the Prophet replies upon him and his Family and Companions blessings and peace: "The qada' [concerning this decision] has not been revealed yet."

And if you're going to start accepting EVERYTHING that's common between shia and sunni hadith... you'll be SHIA in no time :D It's the acceptance of things ONLY found in sunni hadith that make you sunni after all, since shias show time after time our beliefs from your books :D

The famous female mood swing. :) Sometime you demand proof from shia books and sometimes you advice to stick to sunni hadeeth.
I have decided to give you your own medicine.Proofs from shia hadeeth following the footsteps of great tahasyed.

#13 Aliya

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 04:59 PM

Determination of the true age of Aisha

It appears that Maulana Muhammad Ali was the first Islamic scholar directly to challenge the notion that Aisha was aged six and nine, respectively, at the time of her nikah and consummation of marriage. This he did in, at least, the following writings: his English booklet Prophet of Islam, his larger English book Muhammad, the Prophet, and in the footnotes in his voluminous Urdu translation and commentary of Sahih Bukhari entitled Fadl-ul-Bari, these three writings being published in the 1920s and 1930s. In the booklet Prophet of Islam, which was later incorporated in 1948 as the first chapter of his book Living Thoughts of the Prophet Muhammad, he writes in a lengthy footnote as follows:

“A great misconception prevails as to the age at which Aisha was taken in marriage by the Prophet. Ibn Sa‘d has stated in the Tabaqat that when Abu Bakr [father of Aisha] was approached on behalf of the Holy Prophet, he replied that the girl had already been betrothed to Jubair, and that he would have to settle the matter first with him. This shows that Aisha must have been approaching maturity at the time.

Again, the Isaba, speaking of the Prophet’s daughter Fatima, says that she was born five years before the Call and was about five years older than Aisha. This shows that Aisha must have been about ten years at the time of her betrothal to the Prophet, and not six years as she is generally supposed to be.

This is further borne out by the fact that Aisha herself is reported to have stated that when the chapter [of the Holy Quran] entitled The Moon, the fifty-fourth chapter, was revealed, she was a girl playing about and remembered certain verses then revealed. Now the fifty-fourth chapter was undoubtedly revealed before the sixth year of the Call. All these considerations point to but one conclusion, viz., that Aisha could not have been less than ten years of age at the time of her nikah, which was virtually only a betrothal. And there is one report in the Tabaqat that Aisha was nine years of age at the time of nikah. Again it is a fact admitted on all hands that the nikah of Aisha took place in the tenth year of the Call in the month of Shawwal, while there is also preponderance of evidence as to the consummation of her marriage taking place in the second year of Hijra in the same month, which shows that full five years had elapsed between the nikah and the consummation. Hence there is not the least doubt that Aisha was at least nine or ten years of age at the time of betrothal, and fourteen or fifteen years at the time of marriage.” [4]

To facilitate understanding dates of these events, please note that it was in the tenth year of the Call, i.e. the tenth year after the Holy Prophet Muhammad received his calling from God to his mission of prophethood, that his wife Khadija passed away, and the approach was made to Abu Bakr for the hand of his daughter Aisha. The hijra or emigration of the Holy Prophet to Madina took place three years later, and Aisha came to the household of the Holy Prophet in the second year after hijra. So if Aisha was born in the year of the Call, she would be ten years old at the time of the nikah and fifteen years old at the time of the consummation of the marriage.

Later research:

Research subsequent to the time of Maulana Muhammad Ali has shown that she was older than this. An excellent short work presenting such evidence is the Urdu pamphlet Rukhsati kai waqt Sayyida Aisha Siddiqa ki umar (‘The age of Lady Aisha at the time of the start of her married life’) by Abu Tahir Irfani.[4a] Points 1 to 3 below have been brought to light in this pamphlet.

1. The famous classical historian of Islam, Ibn Jarir Tabari, wrote in his ‘History’:

“In the time before Islam, Abu Bakr married two women. The first was Fatila daughter of Abdul Uzza, from whom Abdullah and Asma were born. Then he married Umm Ruman, from whom Abdur Rahman and Aisha were born. These four were born before Islam.” [5]

Being born before Islam means being born before the Call.

2. The compiler of the famous Hadith collection Mishkat al-Masabih, Imam Wali-ud-Din Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Khatib, who died 700 years ago, has also written brief biographical notes on the narrators of Hadith reports. He writes under Asma, the older daughter of Abu Bakr:

“She was the sister of Aisha Siddiqa, wife of the Holy Prophet, and was ten years older than her. … In 73 A.H. … Asma died at the age of one hundred years.” [6]

This would make Asma 28 years of age in 1 A.H., the year of the Hijra, thus making Aisha 18 years old in 1 A.H. So Aisha would be 19 years old at the time of the consummation of her marriage, and 14 or 15 years old at the time of her nikah. It would place her year of birth at four or five years before the Call.

3. The same statement is made by the famous classical commentator of the Holy Quran, Ibn Kathir, in his book Al-bidayya wal-nihaya:

“Asma died in 73 A.H. at the age of one hundred years. She was ten years older than her sister Aisha.” [7]

Apart from these three evidences, which are presented in the Urdu pamphlet referred to above, we also note that the birth of Aisha being a little before the Call is consistent with the opening words of a statement by her which is recorded four times in Bukhari. Those words are as follows:

“Ever since I can remember (or understand things) my parents were following the religion of Islam.” [8]

This is tantamount to saying that she was born sometime before her parents accepted Islam but she can only remember them practising Islam. No doubt she and her parents knew well whether she was born before or after they accepted Islam, as their acceptance of Islam was such a landmark event in their life which took place just after the Holy Prophet received his mission from God. If she had been born after they accepted Islam it would make no sense for her to say that she always remembered them as following Islam. Only if she was born before they accepted Islam, would it make sense for her to say that she can only remember them being Muslims, as she was too young to remember things before their conversion. This is consistent with her being born before the Call, and being perhaps four or five years old at the time of the Call, which was also almost the time when her parents accepted Islam.

Two further evidences cited by Maulana Muhammad Ali:

In the footnotes of his Urdu translation and commentary of Sahih Bukhari, entitled Fadl-ul-Bari, Maulana Muhammad Ali had pointed out reports of two events which show that Aisha could not have been born later than the year of the Call. These are as follows.

1. The above mentioned statement by Aisha in Bukhari, about her earliest memory of her parents being that they were followers of Islam, begins with the following words in its version in Bukhari’s Kitab-ul-Kafalat. We quote this from the English translation of Bukhari by M. Muhsin Khan:

“Since I reached the age when I could remember things, I have seen my parents worshipping according to the right faith of Islam. Not a single day passed but Allah’s Apostle visited us both in the morning and in the evening. When the Muslims were persecuted, Abu Bakr set out for Ethiopia as an emigrant.” [9]

Commenting on this report, Maulana Muhammad Ali writes:

“This report sheds some light on the question of the age of Aisha. … The mention of the persecution of Muslims along with the emigration to Ethiopia clearly shows that this refers to the fifth or the sixth year of the Call. … At that time Aisha was of an age to discern things, and so her birth could not have been later than the first year of the Call.” [10]

Again, this would make her more than fourteen at the time of the consummation of her marriage.

2. There is a report in Sahih Bukhari as follows:

“On the day (of the battle) of Uhud when (some) people retreated and left the Prophet, I saw Aisha daughter of Abu Bakr and Umm Sulaim, with their robes tucked up so that the bangles around their ankles were visible hurrying with their water skins (in another narration it is said, ‘carrying the water skins on their backs’). Then they would pour the water in the mouths of the people, and return to fill the water skins again and came back again to pour water in the mouths of the people.” [11]

Maulana Muhammad Ali writes in a footnote under this report:

“It should also be noted that Aisha joined the Holy Prophet’s household only one year before the battle of Uhud. According to the common view she would be only ten years of age at this time, which is certainly not a suitable age for the work she did on this occasion. This also shows that she was not so young at this time.” [12]

If, as shown in the previous section above, Aisha was nineteen at the time of the consummation of her marriage, then she would be twenty years old at the time of the battle of Uhud. It may be added that on the earlier occasion of the battle of Badr when some Muslim youths tried, out of eagerness, to go along with the Muslim army to the field of battle, the Holy Prophet Muhammad sent them back on account of their young age (allowing only one such youngster, Umair ibn Abi Waqqas, to accompany his older brother the famous Companion Sa‘d ibn Abi Waqqas). It seems, therefore, highly unlikely that if Aisha was ten years old the Holy Prophet would have allowed her to accompany the army to the field of battle.

We conclude from all the evidence cited above that Hazrat Aisha was nineteen years old when she joined the Holy Prophet as his wife in the year 2 A.H., the nikah or betrothal having taken place five years previously.


---------------------------------------------------------------------

Summary:

Betrothal of Aisha : at 14 yrs

Marriage of Aisha : at 19 yrs


reference link: http://www.muslim.or...m/aisha-age.htm

Bro. Link addressed the hadiths Taha cited :D

#14 Sadqain

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 05:25 PM

I am not sure what is the link of the above with the wuestion asked but
About Aisha
There has been saying going on that Aisha was divorced or widowed befored getting married to Rasool Allah.
I am not sure how true it is

#15 Aliya

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 06:08 PM

she was engaged before. not married:

Ibn Sa‘d has stated in the Tabaqat that when Abu Bakr [father of Aisha] was approached on behalf of the Holy Prophet, he replied that the girl had already been betrothed to Jubair, and that he would have to settle the matter first with him. This shows that Aisha must have been approaching maturity at the time.

#16 Aliya

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 07:11 PM

btw, the link is to Omar111 bringing up Aisha's age at the time of marriage, in post #9

#17 Aabiss_Shakari

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Posted 29 November 2005 - 03:20 AM

Fact 1
------
* Sunni Historical evidence shows that the marriage of Umm Kulthum and Umar took place in the year 17 Hijri when Umm Kulthum was 5 or 4 years of age. This would put her date of birth to 12 or 13 Hijri.

Sunni references :
- History of Abul Fida, vol I p 171
- al Farooq by Shibli Numani, vol II p 539

* Historical evidences show that Hazrat Fatima ( May Allah bless her )
passed away 6 month after the demise of his father, and thus her date of death was in the year 11 Hijri, and that Umm Kulthum were born in the year 9 Hijri.

Sunni reference: Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English Version, Tardition 5.546
Shia reference: Anwarul Hussania, v3, p39

Then how is it possible for Umm Kulthum to be born after the death of
Hazrat Fatima (as) if the Sunnis claim that she was married to Omar in the year 17 Hijri at an age of 4 or 5 years, that would put the date of birth as 12 or 13 Hijri, which is long after the death of her mother?!



Fact 2
------
* Sunni historical evidence shows that Umm Kulthum (the wife of Umar) died before 50 Hijri, since Imam Hasan (as), Abdullah ibn Umar and Sa'ad bin Abi Waqs offered the funeral prayers. Also it is worthy to note that Imam Hasan (as) was martyred in the year 50 Hijri.

Sunni references:
- Al Istiab by Ibn Abdul Barr Volume 2 page 795
- Tareekhe Khamees vol II p 318
- History of al-Tabri vol 12 p 15


But then other references show that Hazrat Umm Kulthum ( Blessings on her, the daughter of Imam Ali and Fatima Az Zahra ) were present in Kerballa during the year 61 Hijri. Long after the incident of Kerballa Hazrat Zaineb binte Ali ( blessings on her ) died, then it was that Hazrat Abdullah bin Jafer Tayyar were married to Hazrat Umm Kulthum binte Ali ( blessings on her ).

There is no contradiction to the fact that before Umm Kulthum binte Ali (
blessings on her ), Hazrat Zaineb ( blessings on her ) were married to
Abdullah bin Jafer ( blessings on him ). Also it is true that till the year
61 Hijri ( incident of Kerballa ) Hazrat Zaineb were alive, and that Umm
Kulthum binte Ali were married after the year 61 Hijri to Hazrat Abdullah
bin Jafer.


But where does the contradiction lie ? With respect to the first
references, the lady married to Omar by the name Umm Kulthum died in the year before 50 Hijri, as Imam Hasan ( as ) had offered her funeral prayers.
This leaves us to believe that the Umm Kulthum married to Omar were infact some other lady and NOT the daughter of Imam Ali (as).


Sunni references :
- Roza tul Ihbab Volume 3 page 585
- Al Bidayah wa al-Nihayah
- Tareekhe Khamees Volume 3 page 318

Fact 3
------
* The Sunni scholar Ibn Qutaybah in his book " al Maarif " mentioned that all the daughters of Imam Ali(as) were married to the sons of Aqeel and Abbas with a few exceptions, but he did NOT mention the claim that Umm Kulthum (May Allah bless her) were married to Omar. The exceptions were for Ummul Hasan binte Saeed and Fatima.

Sunni reference: al-Maarif, Ibn Qutaybah, p 80

For those who claim that such marriage happened; kindly answer the
following questions

- What was the age for Omar at the time of the marriage ?
- When Omar died what was the age of Umm Kulthum ?
- Could you briefly state the names of the wives of Omar?
- Could you assert to the truthfulness of the character of the
person who narrated this story ? ( I am talking about Zubair
bin Bakar ) ?
- Do you know how many children were born of Umm Kulthum
with the marriage to Omar ?


#18 Aabiss_Shakari

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Posted 29 November 2005 - 03:27 AM

Who was this Umm Kulthum then ?
--------------------------------
It would be appropriate to mention the other wives of Omar at this
juncture, not only during his pagan days but also after embracing Islam.

His first wife was Zainab sister of Uthman b. Mazun. His second wife was Qariba, daughter of Ibn Umait ul Makzami, and sister of the Holy Prophet's ( saw ) wife Umm Salma ( May Allah be pleased with her ).
She was divorced in 6 A.H after the conclusion of the Truce of Hudaibiya. His third wife was Malaika, daughter of Jarul al Khuzai,
who was also called Umm Kulthum, also she did not embrace Islam and
was divorced in 6 A.H.


On arrival at Medinah he married Jamila, daughter of Asim b. Thabit
who was high placed Ansari and had fought at Badr. Jamila first name
was Asia which the Holy Prophet ( saw ) changed to Jamila on her
conversion to Islam. Omar divorcd her also for some unknown reason.
Omar also had other wives namely, Umm Hakim, daughter of al Harith b.Hisham al Makhzumi, Fukhia Yamania and Atika, daughter of Zaid b. Amr b. Nafil.

Sunni reference : Al Faruq - Volume II by Shibli Numani English Translation
Pages 340 --> 343 Chapter XIX ( His Family )


It is worthy to note that the author, Shibli Numani has easily ignored the daughter of the first Caliph, Abu Bakr. This would explain that truly Umm Kulthum who was married to Omar was not the daughter of Imam Ali, as the correct historical references show, but the daughter of Abu Bakr.

It is also worthy to mention the footnotes that have been included when
Shibli Numani claims about the marriage of Umm Kulthum binte Ali ( May
Allah be well pleased with her ) in the above chapter. Here I quote it word by word

... There was another Umm Kulthum who had been his wife but Historians make a clear distinction between the two ...


Now as a student of History I would like to pose the following questions:

- Who is this other Umm Kulthum that has been mentioned
in the historical references ?
- Is she the same Umm Kulthum that was divorced ( Malaika
the third wife ) in 6 A.H ?
- We also know that there were ' two ' Umm Kulthum's as
Shibli Numani writes above, correct ?
- Or is she the same Umm Kulthum that is the daughter of
Abu Bakr ? If yes then why doesn't the author point out
so ? What is the clear distinction then ?

Here is the answer by from the historical documents:

After the death of Abu Bakr a daughter was born to him that was named Umm Kulthum. Please refer to the following Sunni references to confirm this fact.

Sunni references:
- History of al-Tabari Volume 3 page 50, Printed in Egypt
- Tareekhe Kamil Volume 3 page 121, Printed in Egypt
- Tareekhe Khamees Volume 2 page 267, Printed in Egypt
- Al-Isaba, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Volume 3 page 27

Please also do bear in mind that Abu Bakr died in the year 13 A.H as
mentioned in the following Sunni book of reference


- History of the Caliphs by Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti, page 551
Translated into English by Major H. S. Barrett

This would imply that the original claim made by the first references I
gave for the age of Umm Kulthum at the time of marriage of 4 or 5 years would stand correct. Since for Umm Kulthum binte Abu Bakr to be born in 13 A.H and married in 17 A.H would give her an age of 4 years.

Since Aisha was the elder sister of Umm Kulthum binte Abu Bakr, for this reason Omar had sent for Umm Kulthum hand's to Aisha, and Aisha had accepted this. Please refer to the following Sunni references


- Tareekhe Khamees Volume 2 page 267, Printed in Egypt
- Tareekhe Kamil Volume 3 page 21, Printed in Egypt
- Al Istiab by Ibn Abdul Barr Volume 2 page 795
Printed in Hyderabad Deccan


This leaves us no doubt to believe that Umm Kulthum who was the daughter of
Abu Bakr was married to Omar and not Umm Kulthum the daugher of Imam Ali
(as) !!!

#19 omar111

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Posted 29 November 2005 - 04:40 AM

Even if you take the age of Hazrat Ayesha (as) as 15,the age difference was forty years.So the marriage of Hz.umar was nothing unusual.
If you accept all sunni haddeth than the age was six years.All sunni hadeeth are not sahih or mu[Edited Out]ir.
Sunnis have no trouble accepting the marriage,even in presence of conflicting hadeeth,as they are about the age of Hazrat Ayesha.
Shia have objection.But in the presence of authentic shia hadeeth accepting the marriage,the objection is senseless.And to disprove it by using sunni hadeeth is useless.

#20 Aliya

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Posted 29 November 2005 - 10:57 AM

the source I gave was a non-shia site :) and uses HISTORICAL evidence, which is more credible than hadith falsified to make Aisha's birth after her father accepted Islam.

#21 Aabiss_Shakari

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Posted 30 November 2005 - 04:32 PM

This is more logical and reasoble that the age of Aysha would be 15 years when she was married to Prophet (pbuh). Though there had been differences between the ages of Husbands and Wives in the history but the difference of 60 years to 5-7 years is simply senseless. It is correct beyond the shadow of doubt that factualy Umer married to the daughter of Abubakar as i proved earlier and Umm-e-Kalthum was the name of one daughter of Abubakar. This Umm-e-Kalthum was not daughter of Ali (as).

#22 haideriam

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 04:38 AM

And another:
: إنّ ذلك فرج غصب منّا، إنّ ذلك فرج غصبناه
Imam Sadiq as.gif stated regarding Umm Kulthoom, that "it was a 'faraj' stolen from us, and it was a 'faraj' that we got back (i.e. after Umar's death)". (Al-Kafi 5:346)

(bismillah)

it is so bizarre and contradictory that my shian e umar brothers are trying to promote that theft is a virtue/merit

The italics are not part of the original.

Edited by haideriam, 01 December 2005 - 04:42 AM.


#23 omarkhazim

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 07:02 AM

And another:
: إنّ ذلك فرج غصب منّا، إنّ ذلك فرج غصبناه
Imam Sadiq (as) stated regarding Umm Kulthoom, that "it was a 'faraj' stolen from us, and it was a 'faraj' that we got back (i.e. after Umar's death)". (Al-Kafi 5:346)

(bismillah)

it is so bizarre and contradictory that my shian e umar brothers are trying to promote that theft is a virtue/merit

The italics are not part of the original.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Why are some people here denying and refuting their own Imam??
[notice the vulgarity of the language, and the implied insult to Ali (ra) !!!!]


#24 Aabiss_Shakari

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 11:16 AM

Well It will be realy amazing that our "Sunni" fellows always bring realy odd things :). It means that Hifsa bint-e-Umar would have been greeted Umm-e-Kalthoom (as) in the words "Asslam-o-Alaikum Ya Ummee wa bint-a-bintee" which means "Asslam-o-alaikum O, my Mother and maternal grand daughter" and Umm-e-Kalthoom (as) would have replied "Wa-alaikum asslam Ya bintee wa Ummae-Umee" which means Wa alaikum asslam O, my daughter and my maternal grand mother

Well least i have not seen any such non-sense thing throughout my life lolz

#25 Aliya

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 12:36 PM

interesting web searches for this source

here's what an anti-shia site says (and is confirmed by another shia site) (i will not post the first "narration" from the anti-shia site as I doubt the translation is correct, and it's VERY offensive) but here is the second:

(2) "(Narrated) Muhammad bin Abi Umair, from Hisham bin Salim from Abu Abdullah [as] said:
When (Omar) requested the engagement (of Um Kalthoom) from him, Amirul-Mu'mineen (Ali) said to him: She is still young. (Abu Abdullah) said: He (Omar) then met al-Abbaas (the uncle of Ali) and said to him: Why? What is wrong with me? (al-Abbaas) Said: What is it? (Omar) Said: I approached the son of your brother for the engagement (of his daughter), but he turned me down. By Allah I shall backfill Zamzam and leave no virtue for you (Tribe of Hashim) but nullify it, and I shall bringforth two false witnesses testifying that he stole, and shall cut off his right (hand). al-Abbaas then approached him (i.e, Ali) and told him that, and asked him to make him in charged of the matter, which he did."
al-Kafi (fil Furoo'): al-Kulainy, Book of Nikah, Chapter: marriage of Um Kalthoom, vol. 5, p. 346, Narration 2.

It is narrated in Al-Kafi through an authentic isnad that Imam al-Sadiq (A.S.) has said, “When `Omer sought the hand of Umm Kultham for marriage, Ali (A.S.) said, `But she is only a child,’ `Omer said to al-`Abbas, ‘I sought the hand of the daughter of your nephew, and he turned me down. By Allah, I shall damage the well of Zamzam, and I shall leave nothing precious belonging to you except that I ruin it, and I shall get two witnesses to testify that he stole, and I shall cut off his right hand.’ Al-`Abbas came and informed Ali (A.S.) (of what `Omer had said), asking him to let him take care of that matter, which he did.[5]

This incident clearly reflects the extent of their daring against him, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.
[5]Al-Kafi, Vol. 5, p. 346.

second source: http://www.almujtaba...dy/part7/2.html



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