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Jesus, the scroll of Isaiah and Luke


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#1 Christal-Clear

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Posted 29 May 2005 - 10:31 AM

(bismillah) (salam)

When I read Luke 4:18-19, and Isaiah 61:13, I find some serious differences in their tranlations, and sometimes in their text:

[Isaiah 61:1] The spirit of the Lord is on me, because I am marked out by him to give good news to the poor; he has sent me to make the broken-hearted well, to say that the prisoners will be made free, and that those in chains will see the light again;

[Luke 4:18] The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because I am marked out by him to give good news to the poor; he has sent me to make well those who are broken-hearted; to say that the prisoners will be let go, and the blind will see, and to make the wounded free from their chains,

Where did that come from?
Did Luke get it wrong or did Isa(as) confirm that the Jews "changed their words from their right places"? Or, am I mistaken?

(salam)

#2 Dragonlady

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Posted 29 May 2005 - 11:26 PM

:D CC, thats hardly a serious difference! What I don't understand though is how you can find " some serious differences in their translations, and sometimes in their text" given that the translations are of the text!

In any case lets look at this particular line...
"to say that the prisoners will be made free, and that those in chains will see the light again"
What is it saying? Prisoners will be made free and those in chains will see the light again. Now those in chains could see the light outside if they were set free, but we already know that that the prisoners will be set free, so it must refer to something else.

How about people who are blind? :) (Whether spiritually or physically)


Original Hebrew for Isaiah 61:1
rWx (dny yhwh )ly y)a m$x yhwh (ty lbJr )nwye $lxny lxb$ ln$Bry-lb lqr( l$bWye Drr wl(sWrye Pqx-qx

xqp is a root word of xwqxqp which is translated as "opening (of eyes), wide"

#3 Dragonlady

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Posted 29 May 2005 - 11:43 PM

In regards to "Did Luke get it wrong or did Isa(as) confirm that the Jews "changed their words from their right places"? Or, am I mistaken?"

I would have to say you are very much mistaken.

When you say "did Isa(as) confirm that..." are you mistaking the shortened version of Isaiah (Which is Isa) for Isa (the Muslim Jesus)?

#4 Christal-Clear

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Posted 30 May 2005 - 09:27 PM

(bismillah)

(salam) Dragonlady,

CC, thats hardly a serious difference! What I don't understand though is how you can find " some serious differences in their translations, and sometimes in their text" given that the translations are of the text!


Ok, I'll show you what I mean. The differences are highlighted:

[Isaiah 61:1] The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

[Luke 4:18]The Spirit of the Lord is upon me; because the he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and the recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Now, the differences in translation are obvious. It seems the scholars of King James disagreed with Luke's translation of Isaiah, as shown by the difference in translations.
Now look at the textual differences (red). The first two differences may seem trivial to you, but they are still there. Luke changed "Lord GOD" to "Lord" and "LORD" to "HE", and then claimed that Isa(as) read this. My question is, did he? The third difference is the greatest however -- Luke has added to the original, can you see it?

In any case lets look at this particular line...
"to say that the prisoners will be made free, and that those in chains will see the light again"
What is it saying? Prisoners will be made free and those in chains will see the light again. Now those in chains could see the light outside if they were set free, but we already know that that the prisoners will be set free, so it must refer to something else.

How about people who are blind?  (Whether spiritually or physically)


Original Hebrew for Isaiah 61:1
rWx (dny yhwh )ly y)a m$x yhwh (ty lbJr )nwye $lxny lxb$ ln$Bry-lb lqr( l$bWye Drr wl(sWrye Pqx-qx

xqp is a root word of xwqxqp which is translated as "opening (of eyes), wide"


Thanks for that Dragonlady. :) You made me realise that I had highlighted the wrong part of the verse!! The third textual difference in Luke 4:18 is actually:

[Luke 4:18] The Spirit of the Lord is upon me; because the he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and the recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

I want to show you something Dragonlady. I think you probably know Luke used the Septuagint (LXX). Let me expose his grave error for you...

Here is Isaiah 61:1 from the LXX:

πνευμα κυριου επ' εμε ου εινεκεν εχρισεν με ευαγγελισασθαι πτωχοις
απεσταλκεν με ιασασθαι τους συντετριμμενους τη καρδια κηρυξαι αιχμαλωτοις αφεσιν και τυφλοις αναβλεψιν


Now look at Luke 4:18:

πνευμα κυριου επ εμε ου ενεκεν εχρισεν με ευαγγελιζεσθαι πτωχοις απεσταλκεν με ιασασθαι τους συντετριμμενους την καρδιαν κηρυξαι αιχμαλωτοις αφεσιν και τυφλοις αναβλεψιν αποστειλαι τεθραυσμενους εν αφεσει

Can you see the extra part? Guess where he got this from....
Well let me tell, he didn't get it from the Isaiah 61:1 we have nowadays, I assure you.

He got it from Isaiah 58:6:

ουχι τοιαυτην νηστειαν εγω εξελεξαμην λεγει κυριος αλλα λυε παντα συνδεσμον αδικιας διαλυε στραγγαλιας βιαιων συναλλαγματων αποστελλε τεθραυσμενους εν αφεσει και πασαν συγγραφην αδικον διασπα

For further confirmation, look at the translations of the greek:

Translation of Isaiah 61:1 from LXX:

The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me; He has sent Me to preach the gospel to the poor, to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind;

Transalation of Luke 4:18:

[Luke 4:18] The Spirit of the Lord is upon me; because the he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and the recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Translation of Isaiah 58:6 from LXX:

I have not chosen such a fast, says the Lord; but do you loose every burden of iniquity, do you untie the knots of hard bargains, set the bruised free, and cancel every unjust account?

Now let me explain my first post. I said:

"Did Luke get it wrong or did Isa(as) confirm that the Jews 'changed their words from their right places'? Or, am I mistaken?"

I asked this because either Luke slipped Isaiah 58:6 into his account by accident or he didn't, and gave an accurate account of what Isa (as) read that day. If he gave an accurate account, Isa (as) has shown that todays scripture is corrupted and that part of Isaiah 58:6 originally belonged in 61:1, thus proving the Qur'anic claim "they change the words from the right places". ;)

(salam)

#5 Dragonlady

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Posted 30 May 2005 - 09:35 PM

Hang in there Cristal this may take a little time :)

#6 Christal-Clear

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Posted 30 May 2005 - 09:47 PM

(bismillah)

No probs DL. I'll be back tomorrow, take your time. Thanks. :)

I need need to get some sleep...

(salam)

#7 Dragonlady

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Posted 30 May 2005 - 11:19 PM

Hi CC,
OK, Now I understand what you are saying. Despite the slight differences in translations, to assume corruption, I think would take some evidence towards motive. What benefit would occur to someone or some group for this to occur?

Re: Lord, Lord God etc. The Hebrews used Lord God (Adonai Yawah) (dny yhwh ) for a particular reason. They would not have pronounced yhwh, but Adonai which would show that they were talking about G-D.
Isaiah 61:1
rWx (dny yhwh )ly y)a m$x yhwh (ty lbJr )nwye $lxny lxb$ ln$Bry-lb lqr( l$bWye Drr wl(sWrye Pqx-qx
The second 'Lord' referred to is actually written yhwh, (G-D) but they said Lord as they do not pronounce Yawah. When the Hebrew was translated to the Greek, there would have been no need to translate dny yhwh as Lord G-D. The Greek word used is 'Kurios' κυριου or Lord, of everything, master etc. It stands for both adonai and Yawah. Sometimes it has been translated (Lord God) in the English, depending on whether it comes from the Latin Vulgate or the Septuagint. Luke didn't change the words, though he only used Kurios once and not twice.

Despite the similarity of αποστελλε τεθραυσμενους εν αφεσει and αποστειλαι τεθραυσμενους εν αφεσει I don't know that I could either prove or disprove whether Luke accidently misplaced part of a verse into another.

"O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places"

My understanding of this ayat is not that they have changed their books. Notice "men who will listen to any lie, will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee" I think this is referring to Jews listening to people (possibly other Jews?) who tell what Mohammed has apparently said-incorrectly "They change the words from their (right) times and places". I thinks the 'words' refers to verbal words not written words.

#8 Dragonlady

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Posted 30 May 2005 - 11:23 PM

"I need need to get some sleep..."

:D You certainly do.. :)

#9 Neshama

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 07:34 AM

"Did Luke get it wrong or did Isa(as) confirm that the Jews 'changed their words from their right places'? Or, am I mistaken?"

I asked this because either Luke slipped Isaiah 58:6 into his account by accident or he didn't, and gave an accurate account of what Isa  read that day. If he gave an accurate account, Isa  has shown that todays scripture is corrupted and that part of Isaiah 58:6 originally belonged in 61:1, thus proving the Qur'anic claim "they change the words from the right places". 


Since there is no one exact answer, there could be more than one possible answers.

The people who redacted the story to Luke could have slipped that phrase in there, because it also applies to Jesus, or because Jesus had said it at some point during that meeting. We don't have the entire meeting described, so it could have been something Jesus said after that, but it was simply added in there.

It could have been Jesus who slipped that phrase in there, because it also applies to him. Or the verse could have been there already, but was later lost.

We do not know what the exact answer is, so any of these could be true. However, none of these give support to the idea that someone intentionally removed the phrase from Isaiah 61. As DL said, you need motive for this. Whati s the motive for removing the phrase from Isaiah 61 and putting it in 58? It serves no purpose to do it, because both chapters talk about the same thing, the healing of the sick, setting free of captives and oppressed, etc.

#10 ron

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 10:28 AM

I can't help you with Luke, but I can help you with Isaiah.

Isaiah 61:1 reads (may not display in your browser depending on fonts and so on)

רוּחַ אֲדֹנָי יְהוִה, עָלָי--יַעַן מָשַׁח יְהוָה אֹתִי לְבַשֵּׂר עֲנָוִים, שְׁלָחַנִי לַחֲבֹשׁ לְנִשְׁבְּרֵי-לֵב, לִקְרֹא לִשְׁבוּיִם דְּרוֹר, וְלַאֲסוּרִים פְּקַח-קוֹחַ.

The first part says "ruach Adonai YHVH alai." This is actually a slightly odd thing to write in Hebrew because "Adonai" is a substitute word for YHVH to avoid pronouncing the divine name (YHVH). It's unusual to see it spelled out. Since "Adonai" is usually translated "Lord" and "YHVH" is, by convention, translated as "LORD", it would be something like "the spirit of Lord LORD is on me" or something silly like that. So the translators had to do something with the redundancy.

Re: who will see (the imprisoned or the blind?), Isaiah says "la'asurim." "Asur" means "forbidden" and can also mean "imprisoned." So the translation you're using that says "those in chains" is pretty much on the mark.

Re: the Septuagint, it is interesting for historical purposes, but in the scheme of things not a very good translation.

#11 placid

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Posted 02 June 2005 - 05:24 PM

I have enjoyed reading the above. --- I like the interesting analysis from both Greek and Hebrew. Though I don't understand either one, I admire those who do.

I see a connection in the prophecy of Isaiah 61:1 to Isaiah's vision of the Lord, and his call in 6:1-10, to preach to the disobedient, who would not understand.

Verse (8) NKJ, 'Also I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I! Send me". (9) And He said, "Go, and tell this people: keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive". (10) "Make the heart of this people dull and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and return and be healed".'

The reason for this blinding is detailed in 59:1-15, where it starts out, (1) 'Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened that it cannot save; nor His ear heavy that He cannot hear. (2) But your iniquities have separated you from your God; and your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear'.

There is also a reference to this blindness in John 12:37-41, after the 'triumphal entry' when the multitudes were following Jesus and hearing His teaching, but the Pharisees continued to oppose Him.

I did find a cross reference from Luke 4:18 to Isaiah 58:6-14 (as mentioned) concerning 'the bruised', and I dare say that Jesus could have included all these verses in His message on that day, as it was the day of Spiritual enlightenment. --- As Spiritual blindness brings bondage and all manner of oppression, especially to the poor, --- deliverance from bondage gives hope of freedom, as well as mental, physical and Spiritual healing.

In Luke 4:21, Jesus said, 'Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing'. The message was clear. Their eyes were open to the Gospel. The controversy increased, --- and the world has neve been the same. Placid



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