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Hadith about muta3


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#1 Muslim-Sister

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 02:06 PM

(bismillah)
(salam)

Everytime I discuss with my mom about shiisme, she always talks about muta3.
I try to convince her that it is permitted, and told her about the hadith in Muslim (Book 8, hadith 3255). We began to argue if it have been translated correct.

Sabra al-Juhanni reported on the authority of his father that while he was with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon hm) he said: 0 people, I had permitted you to contract temporary marriage with women, but Allah has forbidden it (now) until the Day of Resurrection. So he who has any (woman with this type of marriage contract) he should let her off, and do not take back anything you have given to then (as dower).
Is there anyone who have the arabic translation, and maybe can tell me, if the verse "I had permitted you to contract temporary marriage with women, but Allah has forbidden it (now) until the Day of Resurrection" is correctly translated. I do not master the arabic skills :). Even so, she says that Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì forbade it, and I told her, that our Prophet (saws) only speak what Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì tell him to say, and will not allow anything which Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is not pleased with. But again, she will say that Allah made it halal at that time, and later maked it haram.

Ma'Salaam..

#2 syed_shia

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 02:15 PM

the hadith is correct.
in sunni hadith there are hadith of which prophet (saw) tol dhis sahabas to practice mutah, which makes the act perfectly halal then.

and then again in sunni hadith theres some which says prophet (saw) later forbade it.

this is a disgrace towards nabiallah to imagine the prophet (saw) allowing people and ordering them to do mutah, eventhough it was marked haraam in the future?

Prophet (saw) is our best example. If he told his sahabas to do mutah, the act must be rite , correct and halal.

prophet (saw) never told his people to go out and drink alcohol. this is what sunnis tend to say aswell. they say, mutah and alcholol was allowed at one stage but then later prophet (saw) forbade it.

but their is a huge difference in encouraging and ordering his people to practice it.

#3 queenjafri

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 02:49 PM

Everytime I discuss with my mom about shiisme, she always talks about muta3


why do people think that mutaa is what shia'ism is all about? :mad:

#4 syed_shia

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 03:22 PM

actually. every non shia i know think shiism is only abt beating urself and bleeding..

#5 Champ

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 03:49 PM

actually. every non shia i know think shiism is only abt beating urself and bleeding..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yeh, i know, folks with jahalat will never understand these things..

But anyway..

Mutah is clearly halaal in the Qur'an and that is sufficient for all those who believe in the Qur'an., Surah Nisa, verse 24.

Edited by Champ, 06 May 2005 - 03:50 PM.


#6 queenjafri

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 03:55 PM

Mutah is clearly halaal in the Qur'an and that is sufficient for all those who believe in the Qur'an., Surah Nisa, verse 24.


and it is clearly haram for those that follow the sunnah of Umer :!!!:

#7 Sayyed-Zayd

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 09:18 PM

(bismillah)
May Allah curse those who have decieved you, and may he guide you to the Sirat al-Mustaqeem, Inshallah.
First, let me ask something, if Shiism is not all about beating yourself and Mut'ah, then WHAT IS IT ABOUT? I used to be a 12 Imami Shiah, and the only major differences between Shiism and Sunnism were things like these... anyway
You said people who follow the Sunnah of Omar say Temporary marriage is Haram...may Allah forgive you and may he guide you... it was the Messenger of Allah who forbade Temporary Marriage, and this was not only narrated by Omar ibn Khattab (ra) but also Sabrah ibn Ma'bad, Salama (father of Iyas), Urwah ibn Zubayr, and many others... but most important of all, Hazrat Ali ibn Abi Talib (ra)
Hazrat Ali said that Temporary Marriage is forbidden in a Hadith narrated in BOTH SUNNI AND SHIAH HADITH BOOKS, by two different chains. This Hadith is considered SAHIH by all Sunni scholars and is recorded in Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal, Sunan Ibn Majah, Tirmidhi, and many many others, and this is how the Hadith goes:
Ali ibn Abi Talib said to Ibn Abbas : "The Messenger of Allah forbade Temporary Marriage (Mut'ah an-Nisa), and the earing of Domestic donkeys at the time/day of Khaybar."
Now may I ask you 12 Imami Shiahs, are you not the followers of Hazrat Ali ibn Abi Talib? Why do Shiah Ayatullahs say that Temporary Marriage is Halal, and even highly recommended, when Hazrat Ali said it is Haram. And ofcourse, it was not just Hazrat Ali, but many from the Sahabah and they all narrated it from the prophet Muhammad (pbuh)
And I am happy to see that one of you gave his own answer, when he said that Temporary Marriage was allowed and then forbidden just like drinking alcohole. This is called NASKH in the Quran, which means Abrogation of previous verses and/or commandments. Remember that Allah completed his religion on Qadeer Khum, which means the religion was not complete before it. Many things changed before Qadeer Khum but on that day the religion was completed. It is also narrated in Sunan Abu Dawood that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) repeated on Qadeer Khum that temporary Marriage is Haram for all times, so that Muslims would remember it and know that its forbiddence is part of the completeness of religion.
Later, some of the Sahabah such as Ibn Abbas and Abdullah ibn Mas'ood claimed that it is Halal (maybe because they had not heard its forbiddence from the Prophet, or because they had forgotten, or because they had not understood). But each one of them were later convinced by other Muslims that Temporary marriage is Haram. Ibn Abbas, by the way, was convinced by hazrat Ali (as shown in the Hadith I quoted earlier) and later said that it is Haram, in a Hadith recorded in Tirmidhi. Abdullah Ibn Mas'ood also agreed it is Haram, as it is stated in some other Hadith books. Also, Omar ibn Khattab said that Temporary Marriage is Haram because the Prophet (pbuh) said so, not because he did not like it. The saying of Omar ibn Khattab regarding this is recorded in Sunan Ibn Majah, and a number of other Hadith books. He did NOT say: "I AM MAKING TEMPORARY MARRIAGE HARAM, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS HARAM BEFORE" or anything like that. He actually said (according to Sunan ibn majah, one of the 6 Sahih books) that if anyone brings witnesses that Temporary Marriage was made Halal again after it was made Halal, he would allow it, but no one did!
It is also important to note that Hazrat Ali continued disallowing Temporary Marriage during his own Caliphate!

#8 Sayyed-Zayd

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 09:58 PM

Just in case some people come and say this hadith is not authentic according to Shiahs, lets look at its chain of narrations.
I am referring to the Hadith were Hazrat Ali tells Ibn Abbas that Temporary Marriage was forbidden by the Messenger of Allah (pbuh)
The Sunni Chain:
The Sunni books narrate this Hadith from Ibn Shahab. At least 5 different SAHIH narrators heard this Hadith directly from Ibn Shahab, they are:
Imam Malik.
Sufyan bin Uyaynah.
Younus.
Ubaydullah ibn omar.
Ma'mar.
If we say that Ibn Shahab did NOT narrate this Hadith we must prove that all above people were "unathentic narrators" even though they are all considered Sahih, and ofcourse, it is unlikely for 5 different people to invent the same Hadith and attribue it to the same person... there is no doubt at all that Ibn Shahab did narrate this Hadith and denying this fact is like denying the whole concept of hadith (which would mean we have to leave Hadith aside as a whole, and leave the Sunnah and everything else).
So, let us now look at the rest of the people in the chain:
Ibn Shahab Az-Zuhri narrated from Hasan and Abdullah, the sons of Muhammad bin Ali bin Abi Talib, who narrated from their father, who heard Ali ibn Abi Talib saying to Ibn Abbas....
All 5 people mentioned above, narrate the exact same chain from Ibn Shahab onwards. So if this Hadith is false, then one of the following people must be a liar:
Ibn Shahab az-Zuhri
The two Grandsons of Hazrat Ali: Hasan and Abdullah
The son of Hazrat Ali: Muhammad al-Hanafiyyah
or Hazrat Ali ibn Abi Talib himself!!!

We know for sure that Hazrat Ali is truthful. We also know for sure that his son and grandsons were not liars (to say the least). So we are left with one person: IBN SHAHAB AZ-ZUHRI. Who was he??? He was one of the companions of Imam Zaynul-Abedeen and was a Shiah (although, he was a real Shiah of Ahlel-Bayt, not like modern shiahs. Such Shiahs are respected and acceptable to Sunni Scholars, including Imam Bukhari, in other words ibn Shahab was not a Rafizi or an exaggerator). Ibn Shahab is also known as one of the most truthful narrators, and he was known as one of the most knowledgeable in the field of Hadith in his days, and enjoyed good relations with Omar ibn Abdul-Aziz (the best Caliph of the Umayyads).
We have seen the Sunni Chain, and we certainly cannot deny it, wether we are Shiah or Sunni.
THE SHIAH CHAIN:
The Shiah books narrate this Hadith through a completely different chain of narration. I do not know how truthful they are, but I know that the Hadith is considered as authentic by Shiah scholars (even though they say Mut'ah is Halal!)
It says that someone narrated from someone else... A from B from C from Zayd bin Ali, who narrated from his fathers who narrated from Hazrat Ali.
So in this chain, it is Zayd, the brother of "Imam Baqir" who is narrating this hadith. As you can see, Ibn Shahab, and others in the Sunni chain do not appear in this shiah chain, which makes it even more clear that this Hadith is true and authentic. (Remember that Zayds fathers were not Muhammad al-Hanafiyyah, but he was the son of Imam Zaynul Abedeen).
Apart from this, there is yet another Hadith narrated from Hazrat Ali in Sunni books, where he states that Temporary marriage was abrogated. This Hadith is recorded in a Hadith book called Dare Qutni and has a Completely different chain which does not include anyone from the Ahlel-Bayt. So now we have 3 completely different Isnaad/chains, where Hazrat Ali states that Temporary Marraige was made forbidden. WHO CAN DENY THIS?
Now I will tell you what most Shiah scholars say regarding the Hadith of Hazrat Ali...they say he was doing Taqiyyah!!! In other words, the person who invented this Hadith was not Zayd, or Ibn Shahab, or the sons of Ali, or the 5 Authentic Sunni narrators whom we mentioned above, but the inventor was ALI himself who attributed a lie to the Messenger of Allah !!! See how far Shiah scholars are willing to go just so that they can have sex with prostitutes for an hour and not tell their wives!
The claim of the Shiah scholars is not even dignified as it is an insult to Hazrat Ali, nevertheless we have to prove them wrong. How can we prove them wrong? simple... if Hazrat Ali was doing Taqiyyah when he said temporary Marriage is Haram, then why did his OWN SON NARRATE THE HADITH??? So his son did not know that his father was lying/doing taqiyyah, but the SHIAH SCHOLARS KNOW????
Also, there are two different statements narrated from Hazrat Ali regarding temporary marriage, and he says in both of them that it is forbidden now (although it was allowed at first), so was Hazrat Ali doing Taqiyyah twice ???
Also, the Hadith recorded in both Sunni and Shiah books states that Ali said this to IBN ABBAS. So was Hazrat Ali trying to TRICK IBN ABBAS??? May Allah forgive us from the lies of Abdullah ibn Sabaa and his followers... How could we say that Ali was doing Taqiyyah when he was speaking to his own cousin, and remember that ibn Abbas used to say temporary marriage was Halal until he was convinced its haram by Hazrat Ali. Why was Hazrat Ali doing Taqiyyah? Was he scared of being killed by Ibn Abbas, or by his own son ????
Oh Allah, guide us to the path of the believers who helped the Messenger of Allah against the polytheists. Oh Allah, may we not be tricked by a group of people claiming to be the lovers of Ahlel-Bayt when they infact contradict their sayings...Oh Allah, may we find the true Islam, the Islam of the Salaf (the early generations of Muslims) and may we be among the army of Al-Mahdi, which has already risen from Afghanistan and is now in Iraq, just as it was prophecised. Ameen
I would like to add that the first thing that made me realise 12 Imami Shiism is misguided and made me leave it was reading about Temporary Marriage and doing research on the subject, and arguing with Shiah Ulama who could not answer me when I presented the arguements to them. All they could say was: "But all Marja' Taqlids say its Halal"...
If anyone has any questions by the way, ask right in this room, I hope they just dont BANN me like they banned other Sunni Muslims in the past so that I can answer your questions and show the Islam, the Islam of the Quran and Hadith, Allah and his Messenger.
Assalamu Alaa kulle Moslemoon

#9 Noahs-Tradition

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 06:19 PM

No one has yet managed to answer any of Sayyed-Zayd's posts. Alhamdulellah, they havent deleted the above posts yet...

If you cant argue with the above facts, then I suggest you stop temporary marriage, cause if Sayyed-Zayd is right, then that means all Shiahs deserve to be stoned to death!!! Why doesnt someone prove him wrong to defend Shiahs and Shiism by proving Sayyed_Zayd to be wrong?

#10 Link

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 06:39 PM

Here are some hadiths showing it has not been prohibitted


Narrated 'Imran bin Husain:

"The Verse of Mut'a was revealed in Allah's Book, so we did it at the time of Allah's Apostle, and nothing was revealed in Quran to make it illegal, nor did the Prophet prohibit it till he died. But a man (who regarded it illegal) expressed what his own mind suggested."
[ Note: For the above Hadith, the Saudi translator of Sahih al-Bukhari (Muhammad Muhsin Khan) has changed the word "Mut'a" to "Hajj-at-Tamatu". This is while in the Arabic text of the Hadith of al-Bukhari which is beside the English text, the word "Mut'a" has been used alone: ]

Sunni references:

Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English, v6, Hadith #43
Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic, v2, p375, v6, p34
Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v4, p436 on the authority of 'Imran Ibn al-Qasir



Narrated 'Abdullah Ibn Masud:
We used to participate in the holy battles led by Allah's Apostle and we had nothing (no wives) with us. So we said, "Shall we get ourselves castrated?" He forbade us (to castrate ourselves) and then allowed us to marry women with a temporary contract (Mut'a) and recited to us:
'O you who believe! Make not unlawful the good things which Allah has made lawful for you, but commit no transgression.' (5.87)
Sunni references:

Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English version, v7, Tradition #13a
Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic, v6, p11, under Tafsir of verse 5:87 of Quran
Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v2, p1022, Tradition #11, "Kitab al-Nikah, Bab Nikah al-Mut'a"
Sahih Muslim, English version, v2, chapter DXLI (titled: Temporary Marriage), Tradition #3243


Narrated Abu Nadhra:
While I was in the company of Jabir Ibn Abdullah (ra), a person came to him and said that Ibn Abbas (ra) and Ibn Zubair differed on the two types of Mut'a (Mut'a of Hajj and Mut'a of women), whereupon Jabir said: We used to do these two during the life time of Allah's Messenger (PBUH&HF). Umar then forbade us to do them, and so we did not revert to them.
Sunni references:

Sahih Muslim, English version, v2, chapter DXLI (titled: Temporary Marriage), Tradition #3250.
Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v2, p1023, Tradition #17, also v2, p914, Tradition #1249.

Jabir Ibn Abdullah reported: "We contracted temporary marriage giving a handful of the dates or flour as a dower during the life time of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and during the time of Abu Bakr until Umar forbade it because of Amr Ibn Huraith.


Sunni references:

Sahih Muslim, English version, v2, chapter DXLI (titled: Temporary Marriage), Tradition #3249
Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v2, p1023, Tradition #16, "Kitab al-Nikah, Bab Nikah al-Mut'a"

Ibn Juraih reported: Ata' reported that Jabir Ibn Abdullah came to perform Umra, and we came to his abode, and the people asked him about different things, and then they made a mention of temporary marriage, whereupon he said: Yes, we had been benefiting ourselves by this temporary marriage during the life time of the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) and during the time of Abu Bakr, and Umar.

Sunni references:

Sahih Muslim, English version, v2, chapter DXLI (titled: Temporary Marriage), Tradition #3248
Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v2, p1023, Tradition #15, "Kitab al-Nikah, Bab Nikah al-Mut'a"


Narrated Abu Jamra: I heard Ibn Abbas (giving a verdict) when he was asked about the Mut'a with the women, and he permitted it (Nikah al-Mut'a). On that a freed slave of his said to him, "That is only when it is very badly needed and (qualified permanent) women are scarce, or similar cases." On that, Ibn Abbas said, "Yes."

Sunni reference: Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English, v7, Hadith #51



Urwa Ibn Zubair reported that Abdullah Ibn Zubair stood up (and delivered an address) in Mecca saying: Allah has made blind the hearts of some people as he has deprived them of eyesight that they give religious verdict in favor of temporary marriage, while he was alluding to a person (Ibn Abbas). Ibn Abbas called him and said: You are a rude person and devoid of sense. By my life, Mut'a was Practiced during the life time of the leader of pious (he meant Allah's Messenger, may peace be upon him), and Ibn Zubair said to him: Just do it yourself, and by Allah, if you do that I will stone you with your stones.
Sunni references:

Sahih Muslim, English version, v2, chapter DXLI (titled: Temporary Marriage), Tradition #3261
Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v2, p1026, Tradition #27, "Kitab al-Nikah, Bab Nikah al-Mut'a"


"Muslim al-Qurri said: I asked Ibn Abbas about Mut'a and he permitted it, where as Ibn Zubair had forbidden it. So Ibn Abbas said: "This is the mother of Ibn Zubair who states that Allah's Messenger had permitted it, so you better go to her and ask her about it. He (Muslim al-Qurri) said: So we went to her and she was a bulky blind lady. She said: Verily Allah's Messenger permitted it.
Sunni reference: Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v2, p909, Traditions #194-195. In Tradition #195 the subnarrator said: "The narrator used the word Mut'a alone, and I do not know if it was Mut'a of Hajj or Mut'a of women." However it is known that what Ibn Zubair used to forbid was Mut'a of women as is clear from the traditions mentioned earlier.


"some one asked Abdullah Ibn Umar about Mut'a (of Hajj), he said: It is permitted (Halaal). So he was asked: your father forbade it. He said: Do you think that my father can forbid what the Prophet did? Should I follow what my father said, or should I follow what the Prophet ordered? The man said: Of course the orders of the Prophet (PBUH&HF)."
Sunni references:

Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v1, p157
Tafsir al-Qurtubi, v2, p365, reported from al-Darqunti

Another report in the above source:

"When a man from Syria asked Abdullah Ibn Umar about the Mut'a of women, he said it is Halaal. The man said: Your father had made it forbidden! Ibn Umar said: Do you think that if my father was forbidding it and the Messenger of Allah used to (allow) its practice, then you should leave the Sunnah and follow what my father said?"

Sunni reference: Sahih al-Tirmidhi


The hadith u mention via shia sources, it is an ahad chain and therefor cannot go against mutuwatar hadiths saying it is halal, and the scholars say it was a narrator who did taqiya, not Imam Ali (as)

ma'asalama

#11 Noahs-Tradition

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 07:13 PM

(bismillah)

It seems like you havent read Sayyed-Zayd's posts...

You mentioned the sayings of Abdullah ibn Mas'ood and Ibn Abbas, but if u read the above posts carefully u would see that he already explains that these two were later convinced they were wrong. Also, they never narrated that the Prophet made it Halal after the conquest of Meccah, Abdullah ibn mas'ood is just talking about the earlier periods of Islam. All this regarding Ibn Abbas and Abdullah ibn mas'ood has already been explained.

Also, you say that the word MUTA was used... "Muta" simply means enjoyment. The Quran even says about those who will go to hell that they had "muta" on earth, meaning that they were enjoying their earthly lives. By your logic, this means that the Quran is saying those who do Temporary Marriage will go to hell...

You also quoted a few narrations from Jabir Ibn Abdullah, whose position is not explained in the above posts, so I will try to explain. First of all, notice that Abdullah ibn Mas'ood and Jabir are both simply stating their opinions (unlike Hazrat Ali and Omar and others who said Temporary marriage is haram with assurance. These two did not argue with anyone about it, they simply thought to themselves that it is correct).
But could Jabir ibn Abdullah be wrong? Could he have a wrong opinion? The answer is Yes. He also had a wrong opinion about Dajjal. It is reported in Sunan Abu Dawood that Jabir ibn Abdullah said: "I have no doubt that Ibn Sayyaad is the Dajjal."
However it was later proven that Ibn Sayyaad was NOT the Dajjal, and this is agreed by all scholars, even Shiahs. So as far as the personal opinion of Jabir ibn Abdullah is concerened, it is not important, especially when it contradicts with what many other Sahabah said. Also notice that Jabir Ibn Abdullah said that he never did it again after Omar. He simply says :"we did it during Abu bakr's time" but that doesnt mean he knew for sure, he simply "did it" because he did not know it was made Haram. So the position of Jabir ibn Abdullah is not at all significant.

You also quoted 2 narrations from Tirmidhi that even Ibn Omar believed Temporary marriage is Halal ! Im sorry, but I dont think your source is accurate. I have Tirmidhi and it doesnt say that at all... could u tell me which chapter of Tirmidhi u found that narration in, and give the chain of narration please?

You also say that the narration of Ali forbidding Temporary Marriage is SINGULAR!!!! Read the above post, there are at least THREE ISNADS for the Hadith. Can u prove any of them wrong? You have to prove them all wrong actually. Also, how do Shiahs know that the Hadith is Taqiyyah (any proof, or assumption as usual ?)

In any case, if you are Shiahs of Ali, you must follow Ali, and Ali said temporary Marriage is Haram.

One more point:
Ibn Abbas himself said that he believed temporary marriage was like eating Pork, meaning that it could be done under extreme circumstances only. But Ali and Omar and others said it cant be done AT ALL. So even Ibn Abbas and Jabir and ibn Mas'ood did not do it any time they wanted like Shiahs do, they only did it when they could not control themselves.
It is also narrated from Hazrat Ali in Dare-Qutni that he said Temporary marriage was only for un-married young men. Also, Temporary Marriage could be done with only one woman, and only on expeditions, and only when the prophet allowed it on the particular expedition. However, Shiah scholars say u can do Mutah anywhere, with anyone and anyhow...with as many women as u want at the same time (Risalah of Imam Khomeini says that it can even be done with children who havent reached puberty!).
In conclusion, what the Shiahs do is not Mut'ah an-Nisa, it is ZENA. Please prove me wrong instead of banning me or deleting my post.
Thank you!

#12 widad

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 07:26 PM

(salam)

why do people think that mutaa is what shia'ism is all about?  :mad:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


At school, we had a few Shia's who "hated" being Shia's, really because of the Muta and the Matam factor.

These days, kids are questioned at school, attacked (verbal), and made to defend a practice they themselves don't always understand.

Many parents unfortunately expect their children to 'blindly' follow their faith. Many questions go unanswered, perhaps because the parent's themselves are unaware of answers. Children are even accused of 'questioning' and not 'believing'.

Ensuring children understand the reason behind Muta and Matam could help change people's perception. As could a more open approach towards people seeking to learn (not here @ Shiachat, but at a Social level).

Wa`Salaam

#13 Link

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 07:27 PM

there is only one chain in the shia books, and we know its taqiya because there is mutuwatar hadiths saying it is halal, there is no reason to do taqiya to make it halal since the caliphate kills shias and not sunnis

you can stick to your explanations of the hadiths if you want, but its obvious (for example look at the 1st one from Imran ibn Husain) that they knew 100% it was not forbidden

also look as Syed Shia posts, what he said is absolute correct, u calling muta prostitution means u r accusing the Prophet (saw) of ordering and commanding prostitution

he never commanded to drink alcohol, but prohibitted later and not right away

however he did command to do muta, therefor it cannot be evil regardless if it was abrogated or not, there is however no verse in Quran abrogating it, Quran overules hadiths, and the hadiths show it is halal anyways

ma'asalama

#14 Link

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 07:29 PM

there is only one chain in the shia books, and we know its taqiya because there is mutuwatar hadiths saying it is halal, there is no reason to do taqiya to make it halal since the caliphate kills shias and not sunnis

you can stick to your explanations of the hadiths if you want, but its obvious (for example look at the 1st one from Imran ibn Husain) that they knew 100% it was not forbidden

also look as Syed Shia posts, what he said is absolute correct, u calling muta prostitution means u r accusing the Prophet (saw) of ordering and commanding prostitution

he never commanded to drink alcohol, but prohibitted later and not right away

however he did command to do muta, therefor it cannot be evil regardless if it was abrogated or not, there is however no verse in Quran abrogating it, Quran overules hadiths, and the hadiths show it is halal anyways

ma'asalama

#15 widad

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 07:35 PM

(salam)

why do people think that mutaa is what shia'ism is all about?  :mad:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


At school, we had a few Shia's who "hated" being Shia's, really because of the Muta and the Matam factor.

These days, kids are questioned at school, attacked (verbal), and made to defend a practice they themselves don't always understand.

Many parents unfortunately expect their children to 'blindly' follow their faith. Many questions go unanswered, perhaps because the parent's themselves are unaware of answers. Children are even accused of 'questioning' and not 'believing'.

Ensuring children understand the reason behind Muta and Matam could help change people's perception. As could a more open approach towards people seeking to learn (not here @ Shiachat, but at a Social level).

Wa`Salaam

#16 Noahs-Tradition

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 09:11 PM

(bismillah)
Prophet (pbuh) did not Order Temporary Marriage, he simply allowed it under extreme circumstances (look at the Hadith u yourself quoted from ibn mas'ood).

Also, ive already explained why Mutah is evil, because the Mutah practiced by Shiahs is COMPLETELY different from the Mutah during prophet's time.

You say the Hadith of Ali forbidding temp.marriage is Singular in Shiah sources, does that mean you completely deny the Sunni version? If so, please tell me WHO invented the Sunni version!
Temporary marriage being Halal is NOT Mutiwatir. A hadith is Mutiwatir when its narrated by many chains, and when those chains are Sahih, not when they are all fabricated, and I can tell u that Shiah narrations about temp.marriage are fabricated. Here are what Shiah Hadith say in Support of Temp.marriage. Judge for yourself if they are the real words of the Ahlul-Bayt or Not:

The Prophet said: The men and women who die without performing Mutah even once in their lives will appear on the day of judgement with their ears and nose cut and faces deformed. (Shiah source:Minhaj Sadeqeen)

The Prophet said: One who performs Mutah with a believing woman is like the one who visits the House of God (ka'bah) seventy times! (Shiah source: Ijala Hasna)

One who engages in Mutah once attains the status of imam hussayn. one who engages in it twice becomes equal to imam hasan. the one who performs it three times reaches the position of Ali. And the one who practices it four times, aquires the level and position of the prophet! (Shiah source: Menhaaj Sadeqeen)

Imam Baqir said that the Prophet said: When I was being taken to Heaven during Mi'raj, Gabriel met me and told me: Oh Muhammad, Allah has promised to forgive all the sins of those women who practice Mutah. (shiah source: Man La Yadhuruhul Faqeeh.)
(conveinient indeed. So all Shiah prostitutes are forgiven and will go to paradise, and even kafir prositutes who do mutah with shaihs will go to paradise)

If a man contracts temporary marriage once in his life time, Allah will grant him paradise. (shiah source:Minhaaj Sadeqeen)

There is no need for witness or any open decalaration of Mutah. (Shiah source:tahzeeb al-Ahkam)

Zararah said: I asked the Imam (imam sadiq) with how many different girls one can contract Mutah. He answered: With as many as one likes. These women are like hired girls. (Shiah source: Furu' Kafi)

I can go on and on... But as far as the Sunni sources are concerned, Imam Sadiq even said that Temporary Marriage is Haram. This is recorded in FatHul Bari.

If you believe the above Shiah narrations are authentic, then Temp. Marriage is Mutiwatir. But, if like me you think that they are lies attributed to the ahlel-bayt by Rafizis and Majians, then Temporary marriage is haram as stated in the Hadith from Hazrat Ali in both Shiah and Sunni books.

#17 Link

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 10:13 PM

(salam)

I never seen uluma quoting those hadiths u mentioned, u can't tell us that these are our sahih hadiths much more like u don't like it when we do that to you

however--there was some rewards for muta in the past since it was reviving sunna, the rewards for practicing muta was because of this, they were obeying the sharia of the Prophet (saw), and not the forbiding of a person who does not have the right to forbid it

#18 Noahs-Tradition

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Posted 06 January 2006 - 10:23 AM

I didnt say those narrations are Sahih I said they are fabricated by Rafizies and Majoosies and other liars.
As far as Sahih narrations are concerned, the only Sahih hadith about temp.marriage in Shiah books is the one narrated from Zayd who narrates from his fathers from Ali ibn Abi Talib. U still havent told me WHO supposedly invented the Sunni version of this Hadith.
And by the way, the Quran never allow's Mutah. You say Quran is more important than Hadith, I agree. But when Shiahs say ayah 24 of Surah Nisa is about temp.marriage, they use HADITH to INTERPRET the Ayah, so that they can change its meaning to mean Temporary MArriage. So your arguement contradicts itself.
If you read Nisa:24 without Tafsir (and tafsir is made using hadith) u will notice that it is NOT talking about Temp.marriage, it is actually about Dowry. Actually, there are Hadith in Sunni books that also say Nisa:24 is about dowry, but u dont really need hadith to understand that. If you want to test, just give the ayah, without interpretation to a non-Muslim and ask him what it means, without telling him that u think its temp.marriage, and see what he says...
And you still havent answered much of what I say (obviously because you dont have an answer). Temporary Marriage is HARAM, and the Shiah version of Temporary Marriage is even more haram and is punisheable by Stonning (because they have made Zena Halal, and making the Haram Halal is punisheable by death according to Quran.)

#19 Link

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Posted 06 January 2006 - 04:32 PM

Narrated 'Imran bin Husain:

"The Verse of Mut'a was revealed in Allah's Book, so we did it at the time of Allah's Apostle, and nothing was revealed in Quran to make it illegal, nor did the Prophet prohibit it till he died. But a man (who regarded it illegal) expressed what his own mind suggested."
[ Note: For the above Hadith, the Saudi translator of Sahih al-Bukhari (Muhammad Muhsin Khan) has changed the word "Mut'a" to "Hajj-at-Tamatu". This is while in the Arabic text of the Hadith of al-Bukhari which is beside the English text, the word "Mut'a" has been used alone: ]

btw- what u said about ibn Abbas (ra) opinion, well it showed he did not believe Umar if Umar really claimed it was Rasool (saw) who forbid it like u said

Jabir Ibn Abdullah reported: "We contracted temporary marriage giving a handful of the dates or flour as a dower during the life time of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and during the time of Abu Bakr until Umar forbade it because of Amr Ibn Huraith.

Sunni references:

Sahih Muslim, English version, v2, chapter DXLI (titled: Temporary Marriage), Tradition #3249
Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v2, p1023, Tradition #16, "Kitab al-Nikah, Bab Nikah al-Mut'a"

#20 Noahs-Tradition

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Posted 06 January 2006 - 04:52 PM

I cant believe it. You just keep repeating yourself as if you havent read any of my posts...
I already explained regarding Jabir ibn Abdullah. I also esplained that MUTA doesnt always mean temporary marriage (there are two mutahs, Mutah al-Hajj which is Halal, and Mutah an-Nisa which is Haram. They are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT). Yes, Omar stated his own opinion regarding Mutah-al-Hajj, but that is completely different topic. He simply said its better for muslims not to mutah al-hajj for sometime, but he didnt make it Haram!

I dont know if ibn Abbas believed Omar or not (he may have been arguing with Abdullah ibn Zubayr during Abu Bakr's life time). I dont know about that, but Ibn abbas certainly accepted hazrat Ali's statement regarding it and he later said that Temporary Marriage is HARAM (according to Tirmidhi).
PLEASE read my above posts carefully, you will find your answers. Any Shiah who reads the above posts and still performs temporary marriage must have some defect in their minds or hearts.

#21 newnew

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Posted 15 January 2006 - 10:41 PM

Isn't anyone going to bother to answer this?

#22 Muskateer_004

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 07:28 PM

The strongest proof of mut'a, as mentioned above, is furnished by the Holy Qur'an. In the sura of Nisa (The Women) Allah says: "...then as to those by whom you benefited (from mut'a), give them their dowries as appointed...." (4:24)

Verse 4:24 is not related to permanent wedlock as it is proven by Sunni ulema, like Tabari in his Tafsir-e-Kabir, part V and Imam Fakhru'd-din Razi in his Tafsir-e-Mafatihu'l-Ghaib, part III, have confirmed that this verse refers to mut'a.

Also, throughout the entire sura of Nisa, several kinds of marriage and wedlock have been mentioned: nika (permanent marriage), mut'a (temporary marriage), and marriage with mulk-e-Yamin (servants). For permanent marriage the Holy Qur'an says in the sura of Nisa: "Then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then only one or what your right hands possess." (4:3)


About Mulk-e-yamin (servants), Allah says: "And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith: you are sprung the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters and give them their dowries justly." (4:25)

The command in verse 4 of sura Nisa to the effect that: "...as to those by whom you benefitted (from mut'a), give them their dowries as appointed...." was for mut'a, or temporary marriage. It could not be for permanent wedlock, for otherwise, it would mean that in the same chapter the decree regarding permanent wedlock has been repeated twice, which is against the rule, and if it is for mut'a, then it evidently is a permanent and separate decree.
Not only Shias but all Muslims agree that mut'a was practiced during the early days of Islam. The distinguished companions practiced it in the time of the Holy Prophet. If this verse refers to permanent wedlock then which is the verse for mut'a? Evidently this is the verse regarding mut'a, which sunni ulema have accepted. There is no verse in the Holy Qur'an which abrogates this command.

In addition, something lawful cannot become unlawful, we see Allah says: 'O you who believe ! Make not unlawful the good things which Allah has made lawful for you, but commit no transgression.' (5.87). By Umar saying mut'a is no longer lawful, he is evidently breaking the words of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì

#23 newnew

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 08:04 PM

(bismillah)
The fact is that Imran ibn Hussain was Wrong. The Verse of Mut'ah was Abrogated, but the problem is most people, especially Shiahs, dont know what Abrogation is.
The fact not not a single verse of the Quran makes a mention of "Temporary marriage" proves that either such a verse never existed in the Quran, or it existed but it is no longer there. When a verse is abrogated, it no longer remains in the Quran, and this is certainly the case for Temporary marriage. Any honest person can tell that Ayah 24 of Surah Nisa has absolutely nothing to do with Temporary marriage, no matter if historians like tabari assumed it did (yet, even they did not believe in temp.marriage because they believed it was still "abrigated").

However, it is narrated in Musannaf Abdurrazzaq that Nisa:24 was different in the past, that it actually mentioned temporary marriage. This was the verse Imran and Ibn Abbas sometimes referred to, but it certainly was abrogated as it is no longer in the Holy Quran in that form and is now very different.

The fact that some of the greatest Sahabah such as Ali ibn Abi Talib, Khalid ibn Walid, Omar ibn Khattab and many others narrated directly from the Prophet (pbuh) that THIS VERSE WAS ABROGATED leaves NO DOUBT that it was truely abrogated. And the fact that the Quran does not mention Temporary marriage proves that Ali and others were RIGHT, that Temporary Marriage was Truely Abrogated just as they said.

It could not be for permanent wedlock, for otherwise, it would mean that in the same chapter the decree regarding permanent wedlock has been repeated twice, which is against the rule, and if it is for mut'a, then it evidently is a permanent and separate decree.


What "rule" are you talking about ?

#24 imado

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 07:14 PM

the hadith is correct.
in sunni hadith there are hadith of which prophet (saw) tol dhis sahabas to practice mutah, which makes the act perfectly halal then.

and then again in sunni hadith theres some which says prophet (saw) later forbade it.

this is a disgrace towards nabiallah to imagine the prophet (saw) allowing people and ordering them to do mutah, eventhough it was marked haraam in the future?

Prophet (saw) is our best example. If he told his sahabas to do mutah, the act must be rite , correct and halal.

prophet (saw) never told his people to go out and drink alcohol. this is what sunnis tend to say aswell. they say, mutah and alcholol was allowed at one stage but then later prophet (saw) forbade it.

but their is a huge difference in encouraging and ordering his people to practice it.

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Would also like to say on sum sunni hadith it says imam ali ibne abi talib (as) has quoted from the prophet (pbuh) that he forbade muta


HOWever

NEVER EVER EVER EVER follow hadith over quran cos hadith can be incorrect now days as it has been tampered with...

Surah 4 verse 24, Is the ayat of muta that states Mut'a so if its in quran no hadith should contradict it.

#25 imado

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 07:26 PM

SUBHANALLAH jazaakumullah...
my self i have had to explain my self about mut'a many times but brother made a clear point about Imran bin Hussain... mashallah WELL SPOTTED BRO Barakallah Feek... And May Allah widen our vision in reading the hadeeths of our sunni brothers and sisters to see where we dis agree...

Mashallah
Wassalaam



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