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Tahrirolvasyleh


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#1 Cihad

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Posted 28 January 2003 - 05:53 AM

(salam)

I have found some quotes on the internet from the book Tahrirolvasyleh, written by Ayatollah Khomeini. I have heard that this are lies, but I dont know sure.
Do somebody really knows this quotes are real?


A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate; sodomizing the child is OK. If the man penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl's sister.

It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when she would begin menstruation at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any father marrying his daughter
so young will have a permanent place in heaven.

A man can have sex with animals such as sheeps, cows, camels and so on. However, he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village; however, selling the meat to the next door village should be fine.

Ayatollah Khomeini
(Quotes above are from Khomeini's book, Tahrirolvasyleh, vol. 4, Darol Elm, Gom,
Iran, 1990, Source: Homa)

#2 Baatil Ka Kaatil

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Posted 28 January 2003 - 06:24 AM

(salam),

There is no volume 4 for such a book. Does that answer your question?

Wa'salaam

Asad Ali.

#3 Peer

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Posted 28 January 2003 - 08:30 AM

Aslamo 3alikum,

So much propaganda :cry:

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#4 Cihad

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Posted 28 January 2003 - 08:52 AM

(salam),

There is no volume 4 for such a book. Does that answer your question?

Wa'salaam

Asad Ali.

It does. Thank you.
I wonder who is making does lies and spread it on the Internet.

#5 Baatil Ka Kaatil

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Posted 28 January 2003 - 11:46 AM

(salam),

I'm sorry if i sounded like i snapped at you bro. I didn't mean to.

Its just when people attribute false claims....:mad:

Wa'salaam

Asad Ali.

#6 Student

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Posted 28 January 2003 - 12:50 PM

Salamon Alaykom,

First let me say that to me these are Feqhi issues and has nothing to do with Aqidah so to me this has nothing to do with the Shia-mainstream debate.

However I wanted to encourage my brothers to be keen enough to investigate any criticism in detail.

It is true that there is no Vol.4 for the book however these comments are derived from Tahrir any way. Perhaps the edition that the first person who had quoted this was referring to had been translated in English in 4 volumes or perhaps he merely made a mistake in giving the reference.

To say there is no 4th volume therefore it's lie to me is a very simplistic approach. The guy can come back to you with corrected address in Tahrir or with explanation. So all we are doing is wasting our time and showing that we haven't really read Tahrir. We need to appreciate that our opponents are (usually) not stupid. They know that most of these sources are now easily available in the net so it is very unlikely that they simply invent a quote.

I prefer first understanding the criticism, then going and studying it in a way that I feel now I have more knowledge about this issue than my opponent, and only then going back to him.

In this case for instance it is much stronger if one come with an argument like:
Firstly your reference is not accuarate but I can correct you ...
Secondly your translation is not accuarte but again I can correct you ...
Third ...

Now as for the quotes I think firstly the translation is not at all accurate. In particular the translation of that part about animals (as far as I remember from the last time I checked it) is very wrong. As for having sex with a child again the translation is not accuare however Khomeini does say that it is okay to get sexual pleasure from your wife if she's not yet 9 years old as long as it's not entercourse.

I again emphasis that to me these issues have nothing to do with Shia-mainstream debate. Although it's a pity that many Non-Muslims are quoting these to attack Islam.

Here is the URL (from al-shia.com) for that quote about sex with child.

You need to scroll dwon to find the 12th item under the title "Ketabonnekah":

http://www.al-shia.c...tahrir25.htm#a4

Student

Edited by Student, 28 January 2003 - 07:59 PM.


#7 shia4life

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Posted 28 January 2003 - 02:04 PM

WHY THE HELL DOES EVERYONE CRITICISE AYATOLLAH KHOMEINI????

WHY CANT YOU EVER LOOK AT HIS GOOD POINTS???

IS THAT SO HARD TO DO??!!

#8 Student

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Posted 28 January 2003 - 02:51 PM

Salamon Alaykom,

sorry brother are you talking with me?!

#9 haideriam

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Posted 28 January 2003 - 06:19 PM

You need to scroll dwon to find the 12th item under the title "Ketabonnekah":

http://www.al-shia.c...tahrir25.htm#a4

(bismillah)
(salam)

can someone translate?

(salam)

#10 shia4life

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Posted 28 January 2003 - 06:49 PM

Salam alaikum


sorry brother are you talking with me?!


No brother student, i am talking to the person, and to all other people who criticize Ayatollah Khomeini..Is there a point? He did wonders for Islam, forget the Shia and Sunni thing, was he or was he not a pious muslim? Its really sad to see brothers like Cihad writing such filth...

How about we talk about the Shia Beliefs, rather than manipulated hadiths!

Salams

#11 Muhammed Ali

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Posted 28 January 2003 - 07:05 PM

cihad was only verifying something thats been spread over the internet.

#12 Gypsy

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Posted 28 January 2003 - 07:19 PM

How do anyone reply to such trash?

Who do you think Imam Khomeini was??

This garbage doesnt need any reply.

#13 Guest_so_solid_shia_*

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Posted 28 January 2003 - 07:32 PM

:angry: u know what
WHOEVER DISSES AYATULLAH KHOMEINI NEEDS TO GET SHOT UP HARD!!!

AN ANYBODY WHO SAYS A BAD THING ABOUT HIM....tut tut tut watch your back :angry:

MARG BAR AMRIKA

Edited by so_solid_shia, 28 January 2003 - 07:34 PM.


#14 Muhammed Ali

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Posted 28 January 2003 - 07:50 PM

How do anyone reply to such trash?

Who do you think Imam Khomeini was??

This garbage doesnt need any reply.

maybe cihad didnt know much about imam khomeini and/or he wanted to respond to anti islamists.

#15 Student

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Posted 28 January 2003 - 07:53 PM

Salam alaikum

He did wonders for Islam, forget the Shia and Sunni thing, was he or was he not a pious muslim?


Salamon Alaykom,

Yes I definitly believe that he was a pious Muslim.

Student

Edited by Student, 28 January 2003 - 07:55 PM.


#16 abdul_hasnain

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Posted 28 January 2003 - 09:54 PM

How do you think he was pious brother Student while he surely cursed the 1st, 2nd and 3rd?

#17 Ali Imran

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Posted 28 January 2003 - 11:27 PM

[Moderators Note: This post was deleted due to the following rule. 2a) Disrespect to any Mujtahid, Marja' Taqleed, or religious authority will not be tolerated whatsoever. ]

Edited by Hajar, 29 January 2003 - 12:30 AM.


#18 B-N

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 02:13 AM

salam..

You need to scroll dwon to find the 12th item under the title "Ketabonnekah":

http://www.al- shia.com/html/ara/books/tahr...tahrir25.htm#a4

Btw, who is going to translate that paragraph here ?

#19 Cihad

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 05:45 AM

Salam alaikum




No brother student, i am talking to the person, and to all other people who criticize Ayatollah Khomeini..Is there a point? He did wonders for Islam, forget the Shia and Sunni thing, was he or was he not a pious muslim? Its really sad to see brothers like Cihad writing such filth...

How about we talk about the Shia Beliefs, rather than manipulated hadiths!

Salams

(salam) brother,

I think you have misunderstood me. I like emam Khomeini like no other.
Like brother Mohamed Ali sad (thank you), I was only verifying something thats been spread over the internet. And I wanted to know if this was true, because I had heard that this was a lie and I wanted to be sure.

#20 Cihad

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 05:50 AM

Brother Student, thanks for your answer, but I dont speak farsi so good.
Do someone have a translation of this?

#21 Student

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 05:54 AM

How do you think he was pious brother Student while he surely cursed the 1st, 2nd and 3rd?


May Allah forgive him for cursing them but brother this has nothing to do with being pious.

My understanding from the word pious (in the context of religion) is that the person is devoted to religion and his intentions are for Allah. Not that what ever he does is correct. I am sure that Khomeini cursed the great Sahabeh (RAm) for the sake of Allah. Just as I am sure that Ben Laden called Shia Kafir for the sake of Allah.

Many people could be pious but make wrong judgements or decisions in their life. To say some one is pious does not mean that what ever he said or what ever he did was correct. It only means their deeds and decisions were devoted to their belief as a Muslim.

Student

Edited by Student, 29 January 2003 - 05:54 AM.


#22 Student

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 06:07 AM

Brother Student, thanks for your answer, but I dont speak farsi so good.
Do someone have a translation of this?



Salamon Alaykom,

Even if you knew Farsi it couldn't help you at all brother as it's in Arabic. :)
I could translate it but for the interest of the Shia friends, I prefer a Shia brother/sister to do that.

Student

Edited by Student, 29 January 2003 - 06:08 AM.


#23 TheCustodian

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 06:14 AM



You need to scroll dwon to find the 12th item under the title "Ketabonnekah":

http://www.al-shia.c...tahrir25.htm#a4

(bismillah)
(salam)

can someone translate?

(salam)

ãÓÃáÉ 12 :
áÇ íÌæÒ æØÁ ÇáÒæÌÉ ÞÈá ÅßãÇá ÊÓÚ Óäíä ¡ ÏæÇãÇ ßÇä ÇáäßÇÍ Ãæ ãäÞØÚÇ ¡ æ ÃãÇ ÓÇÆÑ ÇáÇÓÊãÊÇÚÇÊ ßÇááãÓ ÈÔåæÉ æ ÇáÖã æ ÇáÊÝÎíÐ ÝáÇ ÈÃÓ ÈåÇ ÍÊì Ýì ÇáÑÖíÚÉ ¡ æ áæ æØÃåÇ ÞÈá ÇáÊÓÚ æ áã íÝÖåÇ áã íÊÑÊÈ Úáíå ÔìþÁ ÛíÑ ÇáÇËã Úáì ÇáÇÞæì ¡ æ Åä ÃÝÖÇåÇ ÈÃä ÌÚá ãÓáßì ÇáÈæá æ ÇáÍíÖ æÇÍÏÇ Ãæ ãÓáßì ÇáÍíÖ æ ÇáÛÇÆØ æÇÍÏÇ ÍÑã Úáíå æØÄåÇ ÃÈÏÇ áßä Úáì ÇáÇÍæØ Ýì ÇáÕæÑÉ ÇáËÇäíÉ ¡ æ Úáì Ãí ÍÇá áã ÊÎÑÌ Úä ÒæÌíÊå Úáì ÇáÇÞæì ¡ ÝíÌÑí ÚáíåÇ ÃÍßÇãåÇ ãä ÇáÊæÇÑË æ ÍÑãÉ ÇáÎÇãÓÉ æ ÍÑãÉ ÃÎÊåÇ ãÚåÇ æ ÛíÑåÇ ¡ æ íÌÈ Úáíå äÝÞÊåÇ ãÇÏÇãÊ ÍíÉ æ Åä ØáÞåÇ Èá æ Åä ÊÒæÌÊ ÈÚÏ ÇáØáÇÞ Úáì ÇáÇÍæØ ¡ Èá áÇ íÎáæ ãä ÞæÉ ¡ æ íÌÈ Úáíå ÏíÉ ÇáÇÝÖÇÁ ¡ æ åì ÏíÉ ÇáäÝÓ ¡ ÝÅÐÇ ßÇäÊ ÍÑÉ ÝáåÇ äÕÝ ÏíÉ ÇáÑÌá ãÖÇÝÇ Åáì ÇáãåÑ ÇáÐí ÇÓÊÍÞÊå ÈÇáÚÞÏ æ ÇáÏÎæá ¡ æ áæ ÏÎá ÈÒæÌÊå ÈÚÏ ÅßãÇá ÇáÊÓÚ ÝÃÝÖÇåÇ áã ÊÍÑã Úáíå æ áã ÊËÈÊ ÇáÏíÉ ¡ æ áßä ÇáÇÍæØ ÇáÇäÝÇÞ ÚáíåÇ ãÇÏÇãÊ ÍíÉ æ Åä ßÇä ÇáÇÞæì ÚÏã ÇáæÌæÈ .

What the first part clearly means is that it is not allowed to perform sexual intercourse with your wife if she didn't complete nine years old, however all other pleasure such as touching with sexual desire, hugging, and crossing legs is not problem with it even with infant (less than two years old).

The word Radi3ah means still being breast fed usually less than two years old.

#24 shia4life

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 09:37 AM

Salam alaikum

Thank you brothers Student and Cihad for your response :)

#25 Hajar

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 10:42 AM

Salaam alaikum,

These questions found on Homa.org, the site of an Iranian apostate, were discussed on SLDG. I am posting here some of the posts, which might clarify this.

WaSalaam, Hajar

soroosh_sh
translation(3),(4) Posted 5-30-2002 08:04

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salam to all Muslims
Part three:
http://www.homa.org/...neiSayings.html
"A man can have sex with animals such as sheep's, cows, camels and so on. However....."
I don't know if I should laugh or cry. Laugh at these jokes or cry for ignorant of who believe these!!
Although I know that real Muslims won't ever believe these shameful lies but to show the people who doubt I will write. In this part they haven't even shown Farsi documents and that's mean they themselves know that they are lying. But they won't ever confess because of their enmity with Islamic revolution in Iran and especially with Ayatollah Khomeini.
As all you know in Islamic laws we have some punishments. For example if someone drinks wine or kill another person or any work against Islamic laws he/she should be punished and Islam won't ever punish anyone for "Halal" things, all punishments are for doing "Harams". So, if in Islamic laws we see punishment for a work it shows that work is surely "Haram".
Now if you look at this part of Ayatollah Khomeini's book you will see the punishment of having sex with animals:
"Tahrir alwasile": the book of "Hudud"(legal punishments),saying in have sex with animals and dead. Numbers: 1,2,3
http://www.wilayah.o...ahrir/index.htm
Now for people who don't know Arabic I translate these numbers briefly:
1- Having sex with animals has punishments and it depends upon the dictum of leader and...
3- If someone repeat this work if he hasn't punished yet he should be punished but if he had been punished before for this work and he again repeat it, he should be killed for the fourth time.-though as a precaution-(If he repeated it three times and after each time he had been punished for the fourth time he should be killed)
Now I ask you how can this work be allowed in Islam?!!!!!!! Allah-o-Akbar

And they have continued:
"However he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people......."
As I searched in the "Tahriri Al wasile" ; it is written in "Tahrir al wasile":
The book of eatables and drinkables: saying about animals, number 22,23
http://www.wilayah.o...ahrir/index.htm
22-One of things which cause that an animal being Haram ,Although it was Hala, is that a human have sex with it and...... and because of this work(sodomizing with animal) it's meat and the meat of it's lamb which will be born after sodomizing will all be Haram and it's milk and wool and hair too.
23- If the animal which someone had sex with it is one of the eatable animals like sheep and cow and camel it should be killed (Zebh) and burned....... And if it is on of the animals which is not eatable usually and are used for riding and transportation, like horse and donkey ,it should be taken out of the city and be solved in the other city.
Where do you see this:" however selling the meat to the next door village should be fine." ? Animal's meat is Haram how can you sell it in to the next door village?!!!
Ayatollah Khomeni has written in his book that you can sell the animals which are used for riding and transportation in the other cities,but they have written: selling the meat of the animal in next door villages is fine!!!!!
Where Ayatollah Khomeini wrote these?!!
I told you in the previous parts that they have written a book they haven't translate it!!!
The fourth part of their sayings:
"If one commits the act of sodomy with a cow, a ewe ,or a camel ,their urine and their excrements become impure and....."
http://www.homa.org/...neiSayings.html
If you look at number 22 which I have translated briefly in previous lines you will see that they have changed the main text. And there you can see an antic.
As you saw in the third part they has written :"You can sell the meat of this animal in the next door village" but here they say(as it is in the Tahrir al wasile):"You should burn the animal as quickly as possible."
Here you see contradiction between their translations. It is the strongest reason which proves that they changed the main text for their benefits.
My brother and sisters I hope you ignore my bad translations. I am not a translator so my translations may have many mistakes. But I hope I have done my duty, InshaAllah.
Wassalam.



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