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Abul_Hassan

Shia-Sunni Debate

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As-Salaam' aleykam WRB,

This is a request to the brothers from Ya Zahra foundation who wanted to arrange a shia-sunni debate, but eventually it came to no avail. Someone close to the Shaykh Abdul Qadir Jilani of London has asked me to try and get the ball rolling for this event again. Since I will be leaving for hajj, I will have little time to respond to various posts, but this is one request I am inshallah looking to fulfill for the brother that asked me.

So to all concerned: If you are in contact with the Shia Scholar Fadhl Milani or any other scholars that may want to participate, please reply.

Inshallah, this time we can actually get somewhere.

P.S. Taking into account my circumstances, I am looking to get the attention of the persons concerned and maybe pass their details to exchange with the brother who wants to get the 'shia-sunni' debate back on.

Wa'aleykam As-Salaam.

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(salam),

Inshallah. The debate was broken down last time, due to the Walthamstow mosque being lets say...not very "helpful"

Please E-Mail me and then we'll talk.

Wa'salaam

Asad Ali.

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As-Salaam' aleykam WRB,

Dear moderator 'Baatil Ka Kaatil', I have replied to you privately via the PM facility on this forum, but not heard anything in reply.

Just in case you may not have noticed it, I repeat my question here:

You had written:

"The debate was broken down last time, due to the Walthamstow mosque being lets say...not very "helpful"

I asked you to clarify this statement of yours i.e. whether you even contacted the mosque in Walthamsow, and if so exactly what happened.

Please do clarify this, and inshallah we can look to arrange something.

As mentioned, due to my travelling, I can only communicate via email and this forum.

Wa'aleykam As-Salaam.

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(salam),

I had a friend ring the mosque and he asked questions about Sheikh Abdul. They refused. I meant they weren't very helpful regarding this statement.

Inshallah we can get the debate underway before Muharram.

Wa'salaam

Asad Ali.

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sallam

Walthamstow as in england? Where in walthemstow is the walthemstow mosque ...i usually go there evry summer...

sallam

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As-Salaam' aleykam WRB,

I do not know the circumstances of the call made to the mosque i.e. who precisely took the call, and whether they sounded offended by questions being asked about the Imam, really I do not know.

Here is a brief intro to Pir Sayyid Abdul Qadir Jilani:

***He is probably the most respected sunni scholar in the UK. Being a direct descendent of Imam Husayn (ra) and also Imam Hasan (ra), by way of his ancestor the known sufi Shaykh Abdul Qadir Jilani (ra) of Baghdad. Thus, he is a leading Shaykh of the Qadri order, with thousands of mureeds worldwide. The Shaykh had spent some time living in Saudi Arabia, thus mastering the Arabic language, but was then asked to leave by Saudi Government due to their opposing having such a high profile non-wahabi Sunni Shaykh teaching in their domain. He is known as Muffakir-i-islam (the great thinker of Islam) and is usually referred to as the teacher of the ulema, as many of his students are ulema.***

Now inshallah, we have clarified the intro. Note that I am in no way affiliated with the Shaykh or his mureeds myself, in fact I have never seen the Shaykh in person.

The reason why I suggest this Shaykh, is the brother who wants to get the ball rolling for the debate is an associate of his mureeds. The Shaykh is Pakistani by ethnicity, but as mentioned, speaks fluent Arabic as well as very high standard English (though with a sub-continent accent). As the majority of muslims living in England are Indo-Pak by nature, and are sunni (traditional sufi/ followers of fiqh schools), and since the intended destination is London, then it makes sense that the Shaykh be the top candidate. Most of the muslim masses in the UK would despise the idea of having an Abdur-Raheem Green, Abu Hamza Al-Masri, Omar Bakri, etc, as these figures only represent minority groups in the UK. Whereas the Shaykh suggested represents the majority of mainstream muslim masses in the UK, as almost every mosque that is traditionally sunni by nature i.e. non-wahabi/salafi/HT/AM,etc, hold him in high esteem, wallahu alim.

Now before we proceed further I need to know what is the shia stance on the debate. First and foremost, who do you have in mind to represent your side i.e. Fadhl Milani? I asked before regarding Milani, and just as you claim with the Walthamsow mosque, I had very little helpful feedback on this forum regarding Fadhl Milani. I asked before whether he is resident in London or not and if anyone here is in direct contact with him or his people, but I got no answers. Please fill me in on this, then if you can affirm, we can arrange something, as you said preferably before Muharram.

Wa'aleykam As-Salaam.

Edited by Abul_Hassan

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Aslamo 3alikum,

How can Sheikh Abdul Qadir jeelani be a Sayyid?

He's a Sheikh, as his name shows...

And, how can he be a hassani as well as Hussaini Sayyid? whats the story behind this?

ma'salama

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(salam),

I'm not sure,

But his ancestors could have the mothers side from Hassani background and the fathers side from Hussaini background...

As i say, i wouldn't know as i don't know much in regards to this.

Br Abul Hassan, i will get you a contact number for Syed Fadhl Al Milani. You may obtain information from his representatives directly.

Wa'salaam

Asad Ali.

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Salamon Alaykom,

Can I suggest something:

I think the subject of the debate should be decided upon in a very specific way. A subject like Shia-Sunni is a very broad subject, within this subject there are specific subjects like:

- Ahlalbayt

-History

-Successorship of the prophet

-Sahabeh

-etc.

-Imamat in 12er's perspective and mainstream perspective

I suggest the latter (Imamat) to be the subject.

I also suggest some good brothers from both Shia and mainstream Muslims be kind enough to take a coordinating role by which they make it clear for the two sides that what is the subject and Ensha'Allah during the debate DO NOT allow the two sides to go beyond the agreed subject.

Student

Edited by Student

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(salam),

With all due respect,

These learned people can decide on which aspects need to be raised and how, whether it be Abdul Qadir Jilani or Fadhl Al Milani.

Inshallah they are more learned than ordinary people like us. :)

Wa'salaam

Asad Ali

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Brother being learned or not is not the issue here. I am talking about organisation and coordination.

No matter how much the two sides are learned, the debate needs a coordinator whose job is to restrict the speakers in terms of both time and subject. Otherwise you will end up with a debate that starts from Qadir and then Fadak and then how to do wozoo and then karbala and then Imamat and then Saqifah and then Mahdi etc. and at the end you get nothing out of it but tiredness.

I have seen a number of wonderful debates between Muslims and Christians/athiests and no one could deny that a significant credit goes to the ORDINARY coordinator beside the speakers.

I believe it is the job of the coordinator to ask the speakers well before the event to advise him about the specific subject they want to talk about. He/she needs to coordinate between the speakers to make them reach an agreemnt on the choice of subject. Then he/she needs to show a very tough, disciplined and skillful control of the debate during the event without feeling ashame to interrupt either of the two speakers for the interest of time or subject.

Sorry if I can only make suggestions and no actions but thought these might be helpful.

Student

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i think student wants imamate to be the subject because it may be that he believes the shia are weakest on this subject. anyhow i am sure they will discuss imamate because its such an important subject.

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As-Salaam' aleykam WRB,

I did not want to go into topics as yet, not until we actually got the go ahead of both respective Shuyukh on Sunni and Shia sides. As talking much beyond that would be breach of proper adaab. Anyway, brother student, I can assure you that the first topic that did cross my mind is that of Imamate. Why? Because the most fundamental difference between Sunni and Shia is none other than Imamate. What is the point of discussing so many (literally 100's) of 'side issues', as this is what they are when we compare them to the issue of 'Imamate'. So, after we get the two sides sorted out, the venue, etc, then we can confirm together the topic to be discussed.

As for co-ordination, the Sunni Ulema have held many, many such events with Wahabi/Salafi Imams,etc. So there must have been efficient co-ordination, as we all know how militant and heavy handed our Wahabi/Salafi bretheren can get! What happens is that the topic is agreed upon before hand, and it is confirmed in writing. Each sides views are first presented regarding the topic. Only then does the debate begin. Until there is clear written words of both sides views, then there is no go-ahead as for obvious reasons, the debate could falter and we could go round in circles and off the subject at hand.

The Sunni side have selected a representative. We now await for our shia bretheren to affirm likewise. Actually, I would have thought by now we would have the proper representatives of both sides already beginning to organise this debate. But the ball is now in the court of my shia bretheren.

Wa'aleykam As-Salaam.

Edited by Abul_Hassan

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Anyway, brother student, I can assure you that the first topic that did cross my mind is that of Imamate. Why? Because the most fundamental difference between Sunni and Shia is none other than Imamate. What is the point of discussing so many (literally 100's) of 'side issues', as this is what they are when we compare them to the issue of 'Imamate'.

(salam)

Thank you for appreciating the fact brother.

Stu dent

Edited by Student

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Salam alaikum

Nice idea brother Abul Hassan.

By the way, Ayatollah Fadhel Milani is really good when it comes to Imamate..However i am sure that he is a busy man..

Its a good idea though, hope it works out..

Salams

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(bismillah)

(salam)

ayatullah fadil milani is a local of london and teaches in a few institutes for the graduate/post graduate/doctorate courses

has been on TV too post 9/11 to defend/clarify the muslim stance in special programs

(salam)

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As-Salaam' aleykam WRB,

Dear moderator 'Baatil Ka Kaatil', have you got those contact details that you mentioned? I am awaiting news as to exactly who here is connected to and is supposed to contact the shia representative for this debate. I just feel that things are dragging on a little. I can understand if there is some delay before either representative can be available for the debate (as they both, assuming it is Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jilani and Sheikh Fadhl Milani, are obviously busy individuals), but surely we can speed up this process of exchanging contacts?

Inshallah, I will hear something soon.

Wa'aleykam As-Salaam.

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Where is this debate likely to take place? There have been debates in the 'Islamic Centre Of England' in London by the way, i thought i'd make that a suggestion...

Ayatolla Fadhil -Al Milani >>>

MILANI.JPG

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Salam alaikum

Brother Abul Hassan, you can kindly ask Sayyed Mohammed Musawi, he gives alot of lectures around london.

His email address is mmusawi@hotmail.com ---- his webiste is www.wabil.com

You can probably arrange the debate in the Imam Ali foundation in London.

Salams

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As-Salaam' aleykam WRB,

Dear 'shia4life', to be honest I thought we had found a candidate already, as Fadhl Milani is supposed to be the shia scholar who made the declaration of debate against sunni's in the first place (or at least his 'representatives' on this forum did - I am assuming they had his permission first). So I am hoping that we can stick with the original candidate, but due to the lack of response I am getting from his quarters here, it may mean having to look for an alternative candidate, and I will bear in mind the name of Musawi.

Wa'aleykam As-Salaam.

Edited by Abul_Hassan

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145_turbo_16V Posted on Jan 29 2003, 09:32 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wonder what would the outcome be if we had Sheikh Wahid Khorasani debate with the respected Sunni Scholar.

Curiosity kills the rat.

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As-Salaam' aleykam WRB,

I have contacted brother 'Ya Zahra' and heard nothing in reply. Nore have I had any response from the shia side relating to their candidate Ayatollah Fadhl Milani. My friend from London is making the obvious assumption that our shia bretheren were 'talking the talk but not willing to walk the walk'. I am running out of excuses to put to him, and really now I am making a plea on a shoe-string: please somebody respond. Remember that it was my shia bretheren who initially made the offer of a debate. They said much regarding their candidates and that sunni ulema were frightened. The first time round attempts to get the debate going broke down. My shia bretheren claim they tried to arrange something with the Walthamsow masjid. However, they only contacted the masjid to find out about the personality of the sunni sheikh. Nobody replied to me to get the debate going, despite my willingness to arrange something. The same has occurred again. It just does not look good to make an offer to debate and boast about how good your debaters are supposed to be, and then become silent when somebody accepts your offer.

Inshallah, I will get some constructive replies of some sort.

Wa'aleykam As-Salaam.

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brother ya zahra has gone to hajj.

the problem might not be getting the scholar to debate but getting a venue and funding. there needs to be an organisation managing the whole event. trust me i know how confident shias are, they wont believe that a sunni could win a debate.

if you want a debate then you could contact fadhil milani and organise the debate yourselves. you would invite him to an event you organised. or approach a shia organisation such as the "noor trust" http://www.nooryouth.co.uk/ or the imam ali foundation.

you have to remember that most of the people on this forum are not in contact with scholars. infact in this country shia scholars not readily available to the people.

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As-Salaam' aleykam WRB,

How does one get in contact with fadhl milani? If I knew how, I would not be wasting so much precious time here asking my bretheren to do it for me! Surely there is at least one person here who lives in London who is in contact with Milani? It would be appropriate if someone from the shia side could arrange for Milani to affirm his acceptance to participate in the debate, because I myself and the brother concerned are not to keen on phoning up respected ulema (be it shia or sunni) and challenging them for debates! As for the funding, venue, etc, as I said, we can come to this later, what is the point addressing these issues if we have no speakers?! Lets get the respected Shayukh on both sides confirmed of their willingness to enter the debate (formal acceptance that is), then we can take it from there. Inshallah, I will try to arrange something from thereon regarding contacting people for the venue, funds, etc. This is not a problem, as the Shayukh of Ahlus Sunnah travel all round the UK for such events i.e. Bradford, Sheffield, Birmingham, etc, mainly so far with Wahabi's, Qadianis, etc. I can only recall one debate with shia and that was in Manchester, I think at a private residence (the video is online at www.yanabi.com). I think Allama Irfan Shah Mashadi (Sunni Alim) debated with a shia Alim (do not know who he was- see the video). It is in urdu, however.

So if anyone here cannot get Fadhl Milani's decision on the proposed debate, kindly forward his contact details on to me and I will inshallah arrange something.

Wa'aleykam As-Salaam.

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Salam alaikum

Dear Abul Hassan, Sayyed Mohammed Musawi has got the conatct details of Ayatollah fadhel milani, email him and kindly ask him..They both teach at the imam ali foundation so there is big chance he will have the ayatollahs conatct number...Ask him and see what he says..

I have fadhel milani's old email add: milani@islaminenglish.org

Dont think it works anymore...

Salams

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