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Shia-Sunni Debate


53 replies to this topic

#1 Abul_Hassan

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Posted 24 January 2003 - 11:10 AM

As-Salaam' aleykam WRB,

This is a request to the brothers from Ya Zahra foundation who wanted to arrange a shia-sunni debate, but eventually it came to no avail. Someone close to the Shaykh Abdul Qadir Jilani of London has asked me to try and get the ball rolling for this event again. Since I will be leaving for hajj, I will have little time to respond to various posts, but this is one request I am inshallah looking to fulfill for the brother that asked me.
So to all concerned: If you are in contact with the Shia Scholar Fadhl Milani or any other scholars that may want to participate, please reply.
Inshallah, this time we can actually get somewhere.

P.S. Taking into account my circumstances, I am looking to get the attention of the persons concerned and maybe pass their details to exchange with the brother who wants to get the 'shia-sunni' debate back on.

Wa'aleykam As-Salaam.

#2 Baatil Ka Kaatil

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Posted 24 January 2003 - 11:26 AM

(salam),

Inshallah. The debate was broken down last time, due to the Walthamstow mosque being lets say...not very "helpful"

Please E-Mail me and then we'll talk.

Wa'salaam

Asad Ali.

#3 Abul_Hassan

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Posted 25 January 2003 - 01:26 PM

As-Salaam' aleykam WRB,

Dear moderator 'Baatil Ka Kaatil', I have replied to you privately via the PM facility on this forum, but not heard anything in reply.

Just in case you may not have noticed it, I repeat my question here:

You had written:

"The debate was broken down last time, due to the Walthamstow mosque being lets say...not very "helpful"

I asked you to clarify this statement of yours i.e. whether you even contacted the mosque in Walthamsow, and if so exactly what happened.

Please do clarify this, and inshallah we can look to arrange something.

As mentioned, due to my travelling, I can only communicate via email and this forum.

Wa'aleykam As-Salaam.

#4 Baatil Ka Kaatil

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Posted 25 January 2003 - 01:48 PM

(salam),

I had a friend ring the mosque and he asked questions about Sheikh Abdul. They refused. I meant they weren't very helpful regarding this statement.

Inshallah we can get the debate underway before Muharram.

Wa'salaam

Asad Ali.

#5 Muhammed Ali

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Posted 25 January 2003 - 03:49 PM

brothers if you dont mind me asking will the debate be in english or arabic??

#6 salmany

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Posted 25 January 2003 - 03:53 PM

sallam

Walthamstow as in england? Where in walthemstow is the walthemstow mosque ...i usually go there evry summer...

sallam

#7 Baatil Ka Kaatil

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Posted 25 January 2003 - 03:55 PM

Hopefully it will be in English..

#8 Abul_Hassan

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Posted 25 January 2003 - 05:33 PM

As-Salaam' aleykam WRB,

I do not know the circumstances of the call made to the mosque i.e. who precisely took the call, and whether they sounded offended by questions being asked about the Imam, really I do not know.

Here is a brief intro to Pir Sayyid Abdul Qadir Jilani:

***He is probably the most respected sunni scholar in the UK. Being a direct descendent of Imam Husayn (ra) and also Imam Hasan (ra), by way of his ancestor the known sufi Shaykh Abdul Qadir Jilani (ra) of Baghdad. Thus, he is a leading Shaykh of the Qadri order, with thousands of mureeds worldwide. The Shaykh had spent some time living in Saudi Arabia, thus mastering the Arabic language, but was then asked to leave by Saudi Government due to their opposing having such a high profile non-wahabi Sunni Shaykh teaching in their domain. He is known as Muffakir-i-islam (the great thinker of Islam) and is usually referred to as the teacher of the ulema, as many of his students are ulema.***

Now inshallah, we have clarified the intro. Note that I am in no way affiliated with the Shaykh or his mureeds myself, in fact I have never seen the Shaykh in person.
The reason why I suggest this Shaykh, is the brother who wants to get the ball rolling for the debate is an associate of his mureeds. The Shaykh is Pakistani by ethnicity, but as mentioned, speaks fluent Arabic as well as very high standard English (though with a sub-continent accent). As the majority of muslims living in England are Indo-Pak by nature, and are sunni (traditional sufi/ followers of fiqh schools), and since the intended destination is London, then it makes sense that the Shaykh be the top candidate. Most of the muslim masses in the UK would despise the idea of having an Abdur-Raheem Green, Abu Hamza Al-Masri, Omar Bakri, etc, as these figures only represent minority groups in the UK. Whereas the Shaykh suggested represents the majority of mainstream muslim masses in the UK, as almost every mosque that is traditionally sunni by nature i.e. non-wahabi/salafi/HT/AM,etc, hold him in high esteem, wallahu alim.

Now before we proceed further I need to know what is the shia stance on the debate. First and foremost, who do you have in mind to represent your side i.e. Fadhl Milani? I asked before regarding Milani, and just as you claim with the Walthamsow mosque, I had very little helpful feedback on this forum regarding Fadhl Milani. I asked before whether he is resident in London or not and if anyone here is in direct contact with him or his people, but I got no answers. Please fill me in on this, then if you can affirm, we can arrange something, as you said preferably before Muharram.

Wa'aleykam As-Salaam.

Edited by Abul_Hassan, 25 January 2003 - 05:34 PM.


#9 Peer

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Posted 26 January 2003 - 03:37 AM

Aslamo 3alikum,

How can Sheikh Abdul Qadir jeelani be a Sayyid?

He's a Sheikh, as his name shows...

And, how can he be a hassani as well as Hussaini Sayyid? whats the story behind this?

ma'salama

#10 Baatil Ka Kaatil

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Posted 26 January 2003 - 09:28 AM

(salam),

I'm not sure,

But his ancestors could have the mothers side from Hassani background and the fathers side from Hussaini background...

As i say, i wouldn't know as i don't know much in regards to this.

Br Abul Hassan, i will get you a contact number for Syed Fadhl Al Milani. You may obtain information from his representatives directly.

Wa'salaam

Asad Ali.

#11 Student

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Posted 27 January 2003 - 08:36 AM

Salamon Alaykom,

Can I suggest something:

I think the subject of the debate should be decided upon in a very specific way. A subject like Shia-Sunni is a very broad subject, within this subject there are specific subjects like:

- Ahlalbayt
-History
-Successorship of the prophet
-Sahabeh
-etc.
-Imamat in 12er's perspective and mainstream perspective

I suggest the latter (Imamat) to be the subject.

I also suggest some good brothers from both Shia and mainstream Muslims be kind enough to take a coordinating role by which they make it clear for the two sides that what is the subject and Ensha'Allah during the debate DO NOT allow the two sides to go beyond the agreed subject.

Student

Edited by Student, 27 January 2003 - 08:39 AM.


#12 Baatil Ka Kaatil

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Posted 27 January 2003 - 09:04 AM

(salam),

With all due respect,

These learned people can decide on which aspects need to be raised and how, whether it be Abdul Qadir Jilani or Fadhl Al Milani.

Inshallah they are more learned than ordinary people like us. :)

Wa'salaam

Asad Ali

#13 Student

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Posted 27 January 2003 - 12:16 PM

Brother being learned or not is not the issue here. I am talking about organisation and coordination.

No matter how much the two sides are learned, the debate needs a coordinator whose job is to restrict the speakers in terms of both time and subject. Otherwise you will end up with a debate that starts from Qadir and then Fadak and then how to do wozoo and then karbala and then Imamat and then Saqifah and then Mahdi etc. and at the end you get nothing out of it but tiredness.

I have seen a number of wonderful debates between Muslims and Christians/athiests and no one could deny that a significant credit goes to the ORDINARY coordinator beside the speakers.

I believe it is the job of the coordinator to ask the speakers well before the event to advise him about the specific subject they want to talk about. He/she needs to coordinate between the speakers to make them reach an agreemnt on the choice of subject. Then he/she needs to show a very tough, disciplined and skillful control of the debate during the event without feeling ashame to interrupt either of the two speakers for the interest of time or subject.

Sorry if I can only make suggestions and no actions but thought these might be helpful.

Student

#14 Baatil Ka Kaatil

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Posted 27 January 2003 - 01:10 PM

(salam),

Thanks for your input.

I have someone in mind :)

Wa'salaam

Asad Ali.

#15 Muhammed Ali

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Posted 27 January 2003 - 02:53 PM

i think student wants imamate to be the subject because it may be that he believes the shia are weakest on this subject. anyhow i am sure they will discuss imamate because its such an important subject.

#16 Abul_Hassan

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Posted 27 January 2003 - 04:54 PM

As-Salaam' aleykam WRB,

I did not want to go into topics as yet, not until we actually got the go ahead of both respective Shuyukh on Sunni and Shia sides. As talking much beyond that would be breach of proper adaab. Anyway, brother student, I can assure you that the first topic that did cross my mind is that of Imamate. Why? Because the most fundamental difference between Sunni and Shia is none other than Imamate. What is the point of discussing so many (literally 100's) of 'side issues', as this is what they are when we compare them to the issue of 'Imamate'. So, after we get the two sides sorted out, the venue, etc, then we can confirm together the topic to be discussed.
As for co-ordination, the Sunni Ulema have held many, many such events with Wahabi/Salafi Imams,etc. So there must have been efficient co-ordination, as we all know how militant and heavy handed our Wahabi/Salafi bretheren can get! What happens is that the topic is agreed upon before hand, and it is confirmed in writing. Each sides views are first presented regarding the topic. Only then does the debate begin. Until there is clear written words of both sides views, then there is no go-ahead as for obvious reasons, the debate could falter and we could go round in circles and off the subject at hand.

The Sunni side have selected a representative. We now await for our shia bretheren to affirm likewise. Actually, I would have thought by now we would have the proper representatives of both sides already beginning to organise this debate. But the ball is now in the court of my shia bretheren.

Wa'aleykam As-Salaam.

Edited by Abul_Hassan, 27 January 2003 - 04:55 PM.


#17 Student

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Posted 27 January 2003 - 05:40 PM

Anyway, brother student, I can assure you that the first topic that did cross my mind is that of Imamate. Why? Because the most fundamental difference between Sunni and Shia is none other than Imamate. What is the point of discussing so many (literally 100's) of 'side issues', as this is what they are when we compare them to the issue of 'Imamate'.


(salam)

Thank you for appreciating the fact brother.

Stu dent

Edited by Student, 27 January 2003 - 05:42 PM.


#18 shia4life

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Posted 27 January 2003 - 05:48 PM

Salam alaikum

Nice idea brother Abul Hassan.

By the way, Ayatollah Fadhel Milani is really good when it comes to Imamate..However i am sure that he is a busy man..

Its a good idea though, hope it works out..

Salams

#19 haideriam

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Posted 27 January 2003 - 06:01 PM

(bismillah)
(salam)

ayatullah fadil milani is a local of london and teaches in a few institutes for the graduate/post graduate/doctorate courses

has been on TV too post 9/11 to defend/clarify the muslim stance in special programs

(salam)

#20 Abul_Hassan

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Posted 28 January 2003 - 04:27 PM

As-Salaam' aleykam WRB,

Dear moderator 'Baatil Ka Kaatil', have you got those contact details that you mentioned? I am awaiting news as to exactly who here is connected to and is supposed to contact the shia representative for this debate. I just feel that things are dragging on a little. I can understand if there is some delay before either representative can be available for the debate (as they both, assuming it is Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jilani and Sheikh Fadhl Milani, are obviously busy individuals), but surely we can speed up this process of exchanging contacts?

Inshallah, I will hear something soon.

Wa'aleykam As-Salaam.

#21 MajiC

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Posted 28 January 2003 - 04:44 PM

Where is this debate likely to take place? There have been debates in the 'Islamic Centre Of England' in London by the way, i thought i'd make that a suggestion...


Ayatolla Fadhil -Al Milani >>>
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#22 shia4life

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Posted 28 January 2003 - 07:04 PM

Salam alaikum

Brother Abul Hassan, you can kindly ask Sayyed Mohammed Musawi, he gives alot of lectures around london.

His email address is mmusawi@hotmail.com ---- his webiste is www.wabil.com

You can probably arrange the debate in the Imam Ali foundation in London.

Salams

#23 Abul_Hassan

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 02:17 PM

As-Salaam' aleykam WRB,

Dear 'shia4life', to be honest I thought we had found a candidate already, as Fadhl Milani is supposed to be the shia scholar who made the declaration of debate against sunni's in the first place (or at least his 'representatives' on this forum did - I am assuming they had his permission first). So I am hoping that we can stick with the original candidate, but due to the lack of response I am getting from his quarters here, it may mean having to look for an alternative candidate, and I will bear in mind the name of Musawi.

Wa'aleykam As-Salaam.

Edited by Abul_Hassan, 29 January 2003 - 02:18 PM.


#24 145_turbo_16V

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Posted 29 January 2003 - 04:32 PM

I wonder what would the outcome be if we had Sheikh Wahid Khorasani debate with the respected Sunni Scholar.

#25 Sikander Shah

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Posted 30 January 2003 - 05:52 AM

145_turbo_16V Posted on Jan 29 2003, 09:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wonder what would the outcome be if we had Sheikh Wahid Khorasani debate with the respected Sunni Scholar.


Curiosity kills the rat.



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