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Atheism, defined as a declarative statement that "God does not exist" has the same fault in logic as do all theisms and religions proclaiming that God does exist. Neither side can prove their point conclusively.

Thus, the only rational position is agnosticism, acceptance of the fact that no one on this earth can ever know for certain.

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evolution is a concept developed by an uneducated man, Charles Darwin and to date there is no proof of evolution hence it is called "darwin's theory" and not "law".

I cannot believe a man who was a drop out of university because he had not taste for education.

Education is key to Islam and is they key to progress.

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Atheism, defined as a declarative statement that "God does not exist" has the same fault in logic as do all theisms and religions proclaiming that God does exist. Neither side can prove their point conclusively.

Paul, I see your point. What are the athiest (I'm assuming you're one, let me know otherwise) opinions on the miracles performed by various prophets, for example jesus healing people? I always thought these miracles were recorded as historical facts.

Naqi

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Atheism, defined as a declarative statement that "God does not exist" has the same fault in logic as do all theisms and religions proclaiming that God does exist. Neither side can prove their point conclusively.

What kind of proof are you looking for? If you mean material proof, then you will never find it because God cannot be comprehended through the senses.

Thus, the only rational position is agnosticism, acceptance of the fact that no one on this earth can ever know for certain.

"The one who does not know has no authority over the one who knows". - Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (as).

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Bro. naqim, all the miracles performed by the Prophets (peace be upon them all) were meant to prove their prophethood. They are not an evidense for the existence of god. As Imam Reza (as), said man must accept Allah through reason not miracles.

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Salaam

Thanks Ali786 for that clarification - Yes I agree they (miracles) were to proove prophethood and not the existence of God. However (they were by way of God) so I was actually interested in how the atheists reason/explain these miracles. Do they accept that they occurred.? If so what reasoning do they give for how the individuals performed such miracles

Naqi

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(bismillah)

(salam)

This answer most atheists give is there is no proof these prophets existed. They will also point to similar miracles in other religions. For example, the miracles that Jesus (as) performed like the virgin birth, walking on water, curing the blind, etc., these miracles are also attributed to pagan gods who existed around or before Jesus's (as) time so they say the Christians borrowed this from the pagans. This is actually not an unreasonable argument because many Christian beliefs have been adopted from paganism.

Edited by Ali786

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Original Thread: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?ac...t=ST&f=1&t=3527

Salam Alaikum.

The debate between Br. Hassanain Rajabali and a leading Atheist - Dan Barker on the subject "Does God Not Exist?" is now availableforviewingo nline.

The following links will launch the broadcast with Windows Media Player:

Debate Part 1

Debate Part 2

The following links will launch Windows Media Player within the browser using the appropriate plug-in:

Debate Part 1 - Embedded

Debate Part 2 - Embedded

Please contact us at DreamReapr@aol.com if you're experiencing any problems accessing the content.

Source: http://www.madressa.org

The debate is now available online in MP3 format. The debate can either be downloaded or heard online without downloading.

The first part is 10 MB & the second part is 6 MB.

Debate: Does God Not Exist (Part 1)

Debate: Does God Not Exist? (Part 2)

It would be helpful if you add your comments/ratings/reviews on the debate in the above website.

I'll try my best to upload the debate if I get the chance on to the ShiaChat servers with their permission.

P.S: If you're having connection problems, try again later. Naturally this debate is being downloaded bay many people.

Wa salam.

When you debate god... the ottis is NOT on those who do not believe the claim there IS a god, but those who do make the claim! IF someone says 3 elves from dimension X created the universe... the ottis is NEVER on the person who disbelieves to proove otherwise, but the person who is MAKING the claim to proove his point.

The title, the style very deceiving, and very smart ;) "does god NOT exist" basically removes the ottis of the believer to show THAT in fact GOD does exist and defend why they think that. It is absurd to make a claim and have the person who does not believe defend your claim!

Edited by Lebstyle

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Salaam

Thanks Ali786 for that clarification - Yes I agree they (miracles) were to proove prophethood and not the existence of God. However (they were by way of God) so I was actually interested in how the atheists reason/explain these miracles. Do they accept that they occurred.? If so what reasoning do they give for how the individuals performed such miracles

Naqi

My friend there are "miracles" being done daily. There's people out there have cured blindness, cancer, tonnes of desieses, they aren't prophets, they are tricksters or hypnotists.

Mesmer, the founder of hypnotism healed 3,000 people.. the blind, the sick, the old, he did it all! People would SWEAR he healed them... the BELIEVED they were healed... he just hypnotized them into believing their problems went away lol When you get into sub conscience, deindividualisation, group and crowd psychology you figure out when people are in masses, they become a single entity and actually are EASIER to fool. To this day we have these people, from faith healers to psychics, to even those who claim to chit chat with the dead! They charge money and they make a quick buck, or they get popularity.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Hypnotization is a state of false reality. How about if those people were asked to psychologically, philosophically and generally scientifically provide evidence that they were healed?? Reality check wouldn't u say.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Hypnotization is a state of false reality. How about if those people were asked to psychologically, philosophically and generally scientifically provide evidence that they were healed?? Reality check wouldn't u say.

I agree.

Read up on people like James Randi (www.randi.org). He will give 1 million dollars to anyone who can scientifically proove that he has supernatural powers. To this day not a single person has came close, many have tried only to fail miserably under the tests used to filter the false.

My friend, false reality is what we humans love. Why were the statues of ancient greece and rome errected? for a false illusion. The pyramids of ancient egypt... the aztecs, the list goes on and on. Beliefs have the power to alter reality, wether they be true or not, we have the power to make ANY belief true no matter how absurd.

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Guest Reginald Barnabas   
Guest Reginald Barnabas

"Paul, I see your point. What are the athiest (I'm assuming you're one, let me know otherwise) opinions on the miracles performed by various prophets, for example jesus healing people? I always thought these miracles were recorded as historical facts."

Put me in a time machine with a first aid kit and a zippo lighter, beam me back to biblical days, and you would be praying to statues of Barnabas right now!

You guys ever wonder if the angels that supposedly visited all the the folks back in those days, were not angels, but visitors from another planet?

Jesus's immaculate birth, alien abduction of Mary and artificial insemmination with alien DNA?

Star over Bethlehem, hovering space craft??

Angels appearing and disappearing, "Scotty, beam me up"?

Flaming Chariots in the sky, UFOs?

Gene Roddenberrys stuff makes more sense then the hocus pocus in the bible and koran!

Edited by Reginald Barnabas

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Put me in a time machine with a first aid kit and a zippo lighter, beam me back to biblical days, and you would be praying to statues of Barnabas right now!

You guys ever wonder if the angels that supposedly visited all the the folks back in those days, were not angels, but visitors from another planet?

Jesus's immaculate birth, alien abduction of Mary and artificial insemmination with alien DNA?

Star over Bethlehem, hovering space craft??

Angels appearing and disappearing, "Scotty, beam me up"?

Flaming Chariots in the sky, UFOs?

Gene Roddenberrys stuff makes more sense then the hocus pocus in the bible and koran!

lol actually!!! there is some idiot who claims all this!! HHAHAHA

www.rael.org!!! he's got 60,000 idiots worshipping him right now! LOOOOOLL

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Are they ever going to have that debate transcript ready? It's been over 7 months since the debate was held.

Salams,

inshallah they are trying to sort it out, ill let you know when its finished. i know they have been taking ages to complete it.....

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Sallams,

Do you know there is a DVD version of the debate available as well? You should try to get a copy of that!

YUP! if anyone needs a copy....PM me and inshallah ill try to get it to you :)

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The existance of god is a negative, you cannot debate the existance of negatives! Here is the proof! This debate is a fallocy and illogical. I do not understand how anyone would accept to debate a subject of a negative, it can't be done! The reindeer analogy is proof of how it cannot be done.

Here is the proof:

"Can I prove that reindeers cannot fly? We'll conduct a thought experiment.

Let's select, by some randomizing process, a thousand reindeer. We'll number them and get them all together in a reindeer truck (I don't know what you put reindeer in) and take them to the top of the World Trade Center in New York. We are going to test whether or not reindeer can fly. You have your reindeer all lined up, a video-camera operator standing by, lots of pads of paper and pens at work. The time is now ten past ten in the morning. OK, first experiment. Number one reindeer, please, up to the edge. Camera going? Good. Push. Uhh, write down "no". Really NO! Number two. Push. I don't know what the result of the experiment will be; I suspect strongly what it will be, based upon my meagre knowledge of the aerodynamics of the average reindeer, though I'm not an expert on it. But based upon previous accounts of what reindeer can and cannot do, I think we are going to end up with a pile of very unhappy and broken reindeer at the foot of the World Trade Center. And probably a couple of policemen will be standing by a squad car saying, "I don't know, but here comes another one."

What have we proven with this experiment? Have we proven that reindeer cannot fly? No, of course not. We have only shown that on this occasion, under these conditions of atmospheric pressure, temperature, radiation, at this position geographically, at this season, that these 1000 reindeer either could not or chose not to fly. (If the second is the case, then we certainly know something of the intelligence of the average reindeer.) However, we have not, and can not, prove the negative that reindeer cannot fly, technically, rationally, and philosophically speaking. People will often look at this example and say, "Well, how many reindeer would you have to test?" I'm not going to get into the statistics of the argument; I will only tell you that you cannot prove a negative. The other folks who claim that something is so are required to prove it. It is what we call the burden of proof. In this case, if it's so it's very easy to prove. Just show me one flying reindeer. "

James Randi

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How I can show you God if you cannot see him?

The only answer I have heard is the hadith where Imam Ali (as) says "To know yourself is to know Allah".

If anyone can clarify that, please do :D

God is man :) We are indeed gods, or we should try to be as godly as possible by achieving our full potential.

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I didn't fully understand what br.Hassanain meant when he would say again and again that "tawheed is at the core of all discusion"...but now I get it. After listening to the debate it's clear that if u don't understand tawheed, the unity of god...everything else is knocked out of focus. Man, I really feel sorry for that guy. Dan Barker said some really silly things...u kno?...like the heaven and hell bit. :huh:

I wonder what I would be like if I hadn't been born a muslim.

:blink: ?!??

Edited by SALWA

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