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sufi orders

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i consider the physical threat to be the most immediate threat to shias, to be honest ive never seen any of these innovations that everyone gets so wound up over, other than their love of classical south asian instruments, qawallis and naats. i love sitting in their mehfils to be honest.

what innovations do you know of?

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Asalaam alaikum,

just thought I'd point out that although some posters have suggested that the Imams were opposed to sufism - in the Naqshbandi sufi chain of transmission there is not only Salman Farsi, but Imam Jafaar Siddiq is the 4th in the chain of command of this sufi order. How can this be if he was opposed to sufism?

Also I can only speak for the Naqshbandi, but they have followers from both sunni and shia Islam - being part of a tariqat is not INSTEAD of following your school of thought i.e. Hanafi, Hanbali, Jafaari, Maliki, Shafi - it is just a way of developing spiritually in addition. You may argue that it is not necessary if you follow shia Islam and it is not necessary, but it is also not wrong or harmful if followed with sincerity and not used instead of having a good grounding in the basics.

Allah hafez

Fatimeh

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Asalaam alaikum,

just thought I'd point out that although some posters have suggested that the Imams were opposed to sufism - in the Naqshbandi sufi chain of transmission there is not only Salman Farsi, but Imam Jafaar Siddiq is the 4th in the chain of command of this sufi order. How can this be if he was opposed to sufism?

wa `alaykum as-salam,

Because the Sufis have lied.

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Furthermore, the Naqshbandis claim their silsila goes:

# Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to Abu Bakr to Salman al-Farsi (ra) to Qassim ibn Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr (ra) to Jafar as-Sadiq (as) to Tayfur Abu Yazid al-Bistami.

Which is patently ridiculous. How could any Shi`a follow some order that claims our Imaq as-Sadiq (as) received his authority through Abu Bakr? And were is Imam `Ali (as) in that chain, where are Imams al-Hasan (as), al-Husayn (as), `Ali b. al-Husayn (as), or Muhammad b. `Ali? And as mentioned before, Abu Yazid al-Bistami was born a little under 40 years after Imam as-Sadiq (as) had already passed away, so how could he have been his khalifa? And what of Imam Musa b. Ja`far al-Kadhim (as), the real Imam after Imam Sadiq (as)? And what of the remaining Imams after him (as)? What would a Shi`a be doing with someone like Nizam Haqqani, who claims to have met and been initiated by al-Mahdi (already something to warn us about him), but who is certainly not talking about the twelfth Imam (as), the real Mahdi, the son of Imam Hasan al-`Askari (as)?

Edited by macisaac

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Furthermore, the Naqshbandis claim their silsila goes:

# Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to Abu Bakr to Salman al-Farsi (ra) to Qassim ibn Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr (ra) to Jafar as-Sadiq (as) to Tayfur Abu Yazid al-Bistami.

Which is patently ridiculous. How could any Shi`a follow some order that claims our Imaq as-Sadiq (as) received his authority through Abu Bakr? And were is Imam `Ali (as) in that chain, where are Imams al-Hasan (as), al-Husayn (as), `Ali b. al-Husayn (as), or Muhammad b. `Ali? And as mentioned before, Abu Yazid al-Bistami was born a little under 40 years after Imam as-Sadiq (as) had already passed away, so how could he have been his khalifa? And what of Imam Musa b. Ja`far al-Kadhim (as), the real Imam after Imam Sadiq (as)? And what of the remaining Imams after him (as)? What would a Shi`a be doing with someone like Nizam Haqqani, who claims to have met and been initiated by al-Mahdi (already something to warn us about him), but who is certainly not talking about the twelfth Imam (as), the real Mahdi, the son of Imam Hasan al-`Askari (as)?

Alaikum salaam,

the Naqshbandi chain of transmission is NOT INSTEAD OF the rightful path of the Ahlul Bayt via Imam Ali (as), Imam Hasan (as) and Imam Hossein (as) and all of our imams after this. This relates to how they received their knowledge. They would claim that Imam Jafaar (as) received his knowledge through Imam Ali (as) of course but the chain of transmission in their tariqat passed via Salman Farsi and then Qasim. Abu Bakr wasn't chosen as a leader by them. I think this is misunderstood. The chain of transmission refers to how knowledge is passed down and whatever you think of Abu Bakr and some of his actions, you cannot deny he must have had some knowledge imparted to him by the Prophet (saws). He lived close to him and was a close companion, regardless of his later actions. But although they speak respectfully of him, I have never heard anyone from the Naqshbandi talk of love for Abu Bakr the way they speak of love for the Prophet (saws) and Imam Ali (as).

I was not promoting any belief just pointing out that this particular sufi order has Imam Jafaar (as) in its lineage.

There are several shias who are in the naqshbandi tariqat and I believe it is wrong for you to judge them without knowing what they truly believe. It is so easy these days for Moslems to keep dismissing other Moslems.

As for Sheikh Nazim and Imam Mahdi (as) - I am interested why you are so sure that the Imam Mahdi he talks of with such love and prays for his coming is not the same Imam Mahdi (as) the shia believe in? There are many different theories/stories about the Imam (as) and his coming aren't there even amongst Shia?

I have no problem discussing this issue of sufism and shia Islam - but it seems every time it is raised people get really angry and insulting on the forum to the point where it no longer is a discussion but becomes a slanging match. So please can we keep the discussion at a respectful level where we can all learn, but not where personal insults are traded. This is not directed at anyone in particular just a general comment as a response to the last experience I had discussing this topic!

Allah hafez

Fatimeh

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ok im guessing yours friends are qalandariyya, but i thought they had disappeared.

And i agree with sis Fatimeh, that the issue of sufism brings up FARRRR too much agro in the forum.

Where a person gets pleasure and peace from is a source of bounty, and shouldnt be one of contention.

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Sufism is great. Sufism is the essence of awesomeness. I like hanging out with sufis particularly when they say that God is everywhere and i ask them even in bad places they say yeah i say wow man thats weird.

(wasalam)

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ok im guessing yours friends are qalandariyya, but i thought they had disappeared.

And i agree with sis Fatimeh, that the issue of sufism brings up FARRRR too much agro in the forum.

Where a person gets pleasure and peace from is a source of bounty, and shouldnt be one of contention.

i wouldnt know - what are the qalandriyya, what do they stand for, what do they believe in etc? if you give me some info i should be able to let you know what they are.

i agree with you about the second part too. theres much worse threats to islam than sufis..for a start there arent any notable sufi scholars/ leaders/ speakers i can think of who are supposedly spreading all these dubious innovations.

btw what ARE the innovations?

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i wouldnt know - what are the qalandriyya, what do they stand for, what do they believe in etc? if you give me some info i should be able to let you know what they are.

i agree with you about the second part too. theres much worse threats to islam than sufis..for a start there arent any notable sufi scholars/ leaders/ speakers i can think of who are supposedly spreading all these dubious innovations.

btw what ARE the innovations?

SHHH MAULA D!!!

didnt you ever learn you are not supposed to asked questions?!?! :P

Wa qala Imam Ali alayhi alsalam: "Al Nas 3adaoo man jahiloo" (Mankind hates that which it does not understand).

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SHHH MAULA D!!!

didnt you ever learn you are not supposed to asked questions?!?! :P

Wa qala Imam Ali alayhi alsalam: "Al Nas 3adaoo man jahiloo" (Mankind hates that which it does not understand).

lol sammaj geyyan. PM me?

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Nimatullahi belive in Usool Deen and Furo Deen.

^ A large porportion of their followers most certainly do not follow furo Deen. I know in the past their leader was actually a 'graduate of Qom' thats why I believe after the revolution this order was allowed to continue, I would absolutely dissassociate with their followers now though.

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Of course, because you aren't apart of "Mankind" are you (?)

Furthermore, you must also be above all our scholars too, eh ?

Actually i was quoting Imam 3Ali as (in najhul balaagha), where he was talking about the nature of makind (meaning all people, of which i am a member).

But yea, i do think he (as) was above "all our scholars"

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My wifes lineage can be traced to the Sultan in Indonesia her father died at Hajj while praying He is A Sufi my wife is a Sufi. I recently started following the Alhulbayt , my wife doesnt fight me and ive never seen any innovation from her or family. my q is ..what aboutshia Sufi inter marrige im married before I come to kno Shia

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On Sunday, June 22, 2008 at 11:01 PM, mansab.jafri said:

Salaam.

Sufi'ism is rejected by Madhab Ahlul'bayt (a.s.) not because we think they are innovators, but because Ahlul'bayt (a.s.) themselves told us that fact.

- Mansab

True Sofism or irfan has not been rejected by Imams   .Rather it is true and real islam. 

But one is be sure that it is true irfan and real sofism.

But we have to be cautious about fraud sofis. 

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