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Ahlulbeit r Noor


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#1 Noor Ali

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 03:07 PM

ya ali madad
why do i find people these days washed by nasibib minds, regretting the ultimate truth of ahlulbeit that they are higher than humans.
God created one noor then splitted it to Mohamad and ali and so all ahlu beit are derived from this noor.
Whoever denies this truth is a nasibib even if he claims to be shia

#2 Noor Ali

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Posted 30 August 2004 - 03:31 PM

ya ali madad
thanks at last i found a shiee

#3 akhbari

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Posted 30 August 2004 - 11:40 PM

Br Noor Ali - i pray today that whenever u exit this world - u carry this faith with u that both mohd(sa) and Ali(as) are from one noor and equal in all respects. ameen

#4 Baatil Ka Kaatil

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 03:44 AM

Imam Ali (as) : The heart of an unbeliever is harder than a rock.

May Allah guide us through this rocky ocean.

#5 Peer

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 03:53 AM

ya ali madad
thanks at last i found a shiee

You lost that "one" shia you found. :!!!:

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 07:24 AM

ya ali madad
thanks at last i found a shiee

You lost that "one" shia you found. :!!!:

lol@ Peer :lol:

#7 tahasyed

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 11:42 AM

Just curious.... is it *real* noor, or metaphorical?
There are many ahadith in which the Prophet pbuh tells Ali (as) that they were created from the same clay.

#8 qutb

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 11:52 AM

God created one noor then splitted it to Mohamad and ali and so all ahlu beit are derived from this noor.


From this logic it would mean that all sayyid are derived from noor? Am I correct in thinking this is your position?

Just curious.

q

#9 Peer

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 02:15 PM

Just curious.... is it *real* noor, or metaphorical?
There are many ahadith in which the Prophet pbuh tells Ali (as) that they were created from the same clay.


I asked this question to Sayyid Mahdi Modaressi, and this is the reply he gave me (I am including the question I asked):

My father, Allah may have mercy upon him, narrated to us from Abdullah bin Ja’far from Ahmed bin Mohammed from Ibn Abi Nejran that he heard Abu al-Hasan (Imam ar-Ridha) saying:
He who antagonizes our Shia is antagonizing us and whoever follows them is following us, because they are part of us. They were created from the same clay from which we were created. He who loves them is one of us, and whoever hates them is not with us. Our Shia see through the light of Allah, move about in the mercy of Allah, and will win the dignity of Allah. We feel the same pains that any of our Shia feels during ailment, we become grieved whenever any of our Shia becomes grieved, and we feel happy whenever any of our Shia feels happy. No one of our Shia can be out of our auspices, whether he was in the east or the west of the earth. The debt that is left by any of our Shia is in our responsibility while the estate is his heirs’. Our Shia are those who offer the prayers, defray the zakat, perform the hajj to the Holy House of Allah, fast during the month of Ramadan, declare their loyalty to the Prophet’s household, and declare their disavowal of the enemies of the Prophet’s household. Those are the people of faith, God-fearing, piety, and devoutness. He whoever rejects them is rejecting Allah, because they are the true servants and the genuine disciples of Allah. By Allah I swear, each individual of them will be granted (on the Day of Resurrection) the right to intercede for people as many as the individuals of the tribes of Rabeea and Madhar, out of Allah’s honor to them.

Sifat ush-Shi'a, By Sheikh Saduq (may Allah have mercy upon him)
[Refer to Fadhaa’il ul-Ash’hur ith-Thalatha; 105 H.95, Bihar ul-Anwar; 68:167 H.25, al-Wassail; 1:15 H.28]


QUESTION DO WE NOT BELIEVE THAT IMAM WERE CREATED FROM NOOR (light) ?

ANSWER Very briefly, the substance from which Ahlulbayt were created differs (in terms of the references made to them in narrations) according to the stage of their creation. They are lights that "hovered around the Throne" when referring to their knowledge and pristine positions. They are clay when referring to their earthly creation.

--

Wa'Salam
Ali

#10 Link

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 02:30 PM

they were in a stage of light before Adam (as) and the Angels were created, at this stage they were not body or clay or flesh from what i heard..

#11 Link

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 02:51 PM

The first of all servants:

Posted Image

Posted Image

The High ones:

Posted Image


this from someone else:

(bismillah)
(salam)

[Holy Qur'an 38:75] He said: O Iblis! What hindereth thee from falling prostrate before that which I have created with both My hands? Art thou too proud or art thou of the high exalted?


[Holy Qur'an 2:31] And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying: Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful.


[Holy Qur'an 2:33] He said: O Adam! Inform them of their names, and when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not tell you that I know the secret of the heavens and the earth? And I know that which ye disclose and which ye hide.


In verse 75 of Sad (Surah 38), Allah asks Shaytan: "Are you arrogant, or are you one of the alin (the high ones)?" It means there were some servants of Allah described as alin (plural of ali) who were superior to Adam.


The names were As mentioned in the verses of al Baqarah , on the authority of well known Sunni Muslim scholars.
( Refer to Durr al Manthur,
Kanzul Ammal,
Yanabi al Mawaddat,
Riaz al Nuzra and Arjah al Mutalib)

, "the names" were-Muhammad, Ali, Fatimah, Hasan, Husayn.



#12 Link

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 03:02 PM

they were lights in the throne of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, glorifying Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì... they were not flesh or clay or the form of light of Angels.. they were and forever will be the high ones

the 'names' according to suyuti hadith quoted was when Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì said to the angels infrom the names of these

'these' were the five, however all 14 ma'asoomeen were lights worshiping Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì before Adam (as) and Angels were created, those whom Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì said to name were the five however

#13 Link

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 03:10 PM

Salam

I found this (here on this forum):

Salams,

Bro Salmany, it is very common for non shia people to say that the shia exaggerate a lot about the position of Ahlul Bayt and that we raise them too high. It is true that we consider them high, but we do not exaggerate, for Imam Ali (as) says: Do not call us Gods, but say what you wish about us. At the same time he is also known to say: I am a light created, and a slave gifted, and whomever says other then this the curse of Allah is upon him.

I would like to ask of you a favour now, could you please ask a knowledgable person about Jalal alDin alSuyuti, and his book Durr Manthoor. For I have read that regarding verse 2:33 he says:

In Durr Manthur, Jalaluddin Sayuti says that the Holy Prophet had said: "The objects shown to the angels were five lights. Allah informed the angels pointing to each of the lights respectively:

(i) This is Muhammad, the most praised, derived from My name, the praised one.

(ii) This is Ali, the high, derived from My name, the highest.

(iii) This is Fatimah, the original, derived from my name, the originator of the heavens and the earth.

(iv) This is Hasan, the bountiful, derived from My name, the benefactor.

(v) This is Husayn, the good, derived from My name, the good in origin.

O angels! It is in love of these five that I have created the universe."


This is also popular shia belief.



#14 tahasyed

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 03:29 PM

So the understanding is that Muhammad pbuh and his ahlul-bayt (as) are NOT literal noor, rather it is indicative of their superiority, am I correct? :)
This would not conflict with the numerous ahadith that state that the Prophet was made of clay and that the Quran testifies that the Prophet is 'but a man like yourselves'. (Kahf, second last ayah)

#15 Link

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 03:30 PM

Salam alaicom

glad to be at service :)

this is copied from Islamic Government--khomeini (ra)


prove that government and authority belong to the Imam is not to imply that the Imam has no spirituals status. The Imam does indeed possess certain spiritual dimensions that are unconnected with his function as ruler. The spiritual status of the Imam is the universal divine viceregency that is sometimes mentioned by the Imams (peace be upon them). It is a viceregency pertaining to the whole of creation, by virtue of which all the atoms the universe humble themselves before the holder of authority. It is one of the essential beliefs of our Shi'i school that no one can attain the spiritual status of the Imams, not even the Angels or the prophets63. In fact, according to the traditions, that have been handed down to us, the Most Noble Messenger and the Imams existed before the creation of the world in the form of lights situated beneath the divine throne; they were superior to other men even in the sperm from which they grew and in their physical composition64. Their exalted station is limited only by the divine will, as indicated by the saying of Jibra'il recorded in the traditions on the mi'raj: "Were I to draw closer by as much as the breadth of a finger, surely I would burn"65. The Prophet himself said. "We have states with God that are beyond the reach of the cherubim and the prophets"66. It is a part of our belief that the Imams too enjoy similar states, before the question of government even arises. For example, Fatima also possessed these states, even though she was not a ruler, a judge, or a governor67. These states are quite distinct from the function of government. So when we say that Fatima was neither a judge nor a ruler, this does not mean that she was like you and me, or that she has no spiritual superiority over us. Similary, if someone says, in accordance with the Qur'an, that "The Prophet has higher claims on the believers than their own selves" (33:6), he has attributed to him something more exalted than his right to govern the believers. We will not examine these matters further here, for they belong to the area of another schence.

#16 Link

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 03:41 PM

Allah nooral samawat...

I heard that light is manifested through muhammad pbuh, the parable i heard is about Fatima (as), hassan (as) and Hussein (as), and the blessed tree is Ibraheem (as).. light upon light is about the Imams (as), not sure if this is a correct hadith and universal shia view though

Edited by Link, 31 August 2004 - 03:41 PM.


#17 tahasyed

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 03:48 PM

hmmm.... but the ayah does NOT say "Lillahi noor as-samawati wal ardh".
Rather, it says "Allahu noor as-samawati wal ardh".

In other words, the ayah is saying Allah is the noor of the heavens and the earth.

#18 Link

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 03:51 PM

true...

#19 Link

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 03:56 PM

but the manifestation of his light is through Muhammad pbuh.. and the 'parable of his light' doesn't mean parable of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, but don't think u can say Allah's ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is lit from a blessed olive tree aswell...

#20 Link

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 04:07 PM

I am getting confused.


me too, the parable of light, i don't think its a universal view of what i mentioned, i'm trying to figure out what Khomeini (ra) has said abt it...

#21 Link

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 04:38 PM

(Al-Fudayl ibn Yasar says: "I asked) Abu 'Abd Allah al-Sadiq Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã concerning the meaning of `Allah is the Light o f the Heavens and the earth.' He replied, 'Such is Allah, the All-mighty and Glorious.' I asked him (about the meaning of the phrase) 'the likeness of His Light.' lie said, '(It means) Muhammad (S)'. I asked him, '(What is meant by) 'as a niche'? He said, 'The breast of Muhammad (S).' I asked him,'(What is meant by) 'wherein is a lamp'? He said, '(It means:) In it is the light of knowledge, that is prophethood.' I asked him, '(What is meant by:) 'The lamp is in a glass?' He said, '(It means:) the knowledge of the Messenger of Allah (S) emanated towards the heart of 'Ali' Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã .... "

#22 Link

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 04:40 PM

this from Khomeini (ra)

. The reality of existence is identical with `light' and identical with consciousness:




God is the Light of the heavens and the earth. (24:35)

Hence knowledge is same as light and in the noble verses faith (iman) and knowledge have been referred to as `light'.



And to whomsoever God assigns no light, no light has he. (24:40)

In the noble Light Verse, 'light' has been interpreted as `knowledge' . according to the exegesis of the Infallible Ahl al-Bayt-may peace be upon them:



(Al-Fudayl ibn Yasar says: "I asked) Abu 'Abd Allah al-Sadiq Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã concerning the meaning of `Allah is the Light o f the Heavens and the earth.' He replied, 'Such is Allah, the All-mighty and Glorious.' I asked him (about the meaning of the phrase) 'the likeness of His Light.' lie said, '(It means) Muhammad (S)'. I asked him, '(What is meant by) 'as a niche'? He said, 'The breast of Muhammad (S).' I asked him,'(What is meant by) 'wherein is a lamp'? He said, '(It means:) In it is the light of knowledge, that is prophethood.' I asked him, '(What is meant by:) 'The lamp is in a glass?' He said, '(It means:) the knowledge of the Messenger of Allah (S) emanated towards the heart of 'Ali' Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã .... " [5]



It is narrated from al-'Imam al-Baqir Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã that he said: "I am the guide of the heavens and the earth. The likeness of the knowledge that I have been given-which is the light wherewith they are guided-is as a niche, wherein is a lamp. 'The niche' is the heart of Muhammad-may God's benedictions be upon him and his Progeny-and 'the lamp' is the knowledge: that is, its light that is in it." [6]



In a tradition it is stated: "The man of faith moves in five lights: his entry is light; his exit is light; his knowledge is light; his speech is light; and his passage towards Paradise on the Day of Resurrection is light." [7]

#23 Link

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 04:45 PM

[5]. Al-Shaykh al-Saduq, Kitab al-Tawhid, 157.

[6]. Tafsir nur al-thaqalayn, iii, 605.

[7]. Al-Bahrani, Tafsir al-burhan, iii, 135.

#24 tahasyed

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 05:57 PM

Good job Link. ^_^



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