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imam malik


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#1 salmany

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Posted 27 December 2002 - 12:49 AM

sallam

The caliph Abu Ja`far al-Mansur had forbidden Malik to narrate the hadith: "The divorce of the coerced does not take effect" (laysa `ala mustakrahin / li mukrahin talâq). Then a spy came to Malik and asked him about the issue, whereupon Malik narrated the hadith in front of everyone. He was seized and lashed until his shoulder was dislocated and he passed out. When he came to, he said: "He [al-Mansur] is absolved of my lashing." When asked why he had absolved him, Malik replied: "I feared to meet the Prophet after being the cause for the perdition of one of his relatives." Ibrahim ibn Hammad said he saw Malik being carried up and walking away, carrying one of his hands with the other. Then they shaved his face and he was mounted on a camel and paraded. He was ordered to deprecate himself aloud, whereupon he said: "Whoever knows me, knows me; whoever does not know me, my name is Malik ibn Anas, and I say: The divorce of the coerced is null and void!" When news of this reached Ja`far ibn Sulayman (d. 175) the governor of Madina and cousin of al-Mansur, he said: "Bring him down, let him go."

Imam Malik held the hadith of the Prophet in such reverence that he never narrated anything nor gave a fatwa unless in a state of ritual purity. Isma`il ibn Abi Uways said: "I asked my uncle û Malik û about something. He bade me sit, made ablution, sat on the couch, and said: la hawla wa la quwwata illa billah. He did not give a fatwa except he said it first." Al-Haytham said: "I heard Malik being asked forty eight questions, to thirty-two of which he replied: ‘I do not know.’" Abu Mus`ab reported that Malik said: "I did not give fatwas before seventy scholars first witnessed to my competence to do it."

Malik’s ethics, together with the states of awe and emotion which were observed on him by his entourage, were no doubt partly inherited from great shaykhs of his such as Ja`far al-Sadiq, Ibn Hurmuz, and Ibn Shihab al-Zuhri. He visited his shaykh Ibn Hurmuz (d. 148) every day from morning to night for a period of about eight years and recounts: "I would come to Ibn Hurmuz, whereupon he would order the servant to close the door and let down the curtain, then he would start speaking of the beginning of this Umma, and tears would stream down his beard." The Maliki shaykh Ibn Qunfudh al-Qusantini (d. 810) wrote:

It was the practice of the Pious Predecessors and the Imams of the past that whenever the Prophet was mentioned in their presence they were overwhelmed by reverence, humbleness, stillness, and dignity. Ja`far ibn Muhammad ibn `Ali ibn al-Husayn ibn `Ali ibn Abi Talib would turn pale whenever he heard the Prophet mentioned. Imam Malik would not mention a hadith except in a state of ritual purity. `Abd al-Rahman ibn al-Qasim ibn Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr al-Siddiq would turn red and stammer whenever he heard the Prophet mentioned. As for `Amir ibn `Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr ibn al-`Awamm al-Asadi (one of the early Sufis), he would weep until his eyes had no tears left in them. When any hadiths were mentioned in their presence they would lower their voices. Malik said: "The Prophet’s sacredness (hurma) is in death is as his sacredness was in life."


i just wanted to know that if imams like malik and abu hanifa who were taught under imam jafar..why dont shias take their hadiths or accept their books? or do they?

Malik narrated from in the Muwatta’: Ayyub al-Sakhtyani, Ja`far ibn Muhammad (al-Sadiq), Zayd ibn Aslam, `Ata’ al-Khurasani, al-Zuhri, Ibn al-Munkadir, `Alqama, Nafi` the freedman of Ibn `Umar, and others. Among those who narrated from Malik: al-Zuhri, Ibn Jurayj, Abu Hanifa, al-Awza`i, Sufyan al-Thawri, Shu`ba, Ibn al-Mubarak, Muhammad ibn al-Hasan, `Abd al-Rahman ibn Mahdi, Waki`, Yahya al-Qattan, al-Shafi`i, Ibn Wahb, Abu Dawud al-Tayalisi, `Abd al-Razzaq, and many others.


Malik said: "I showed my book to seventy jurists of Madina, and every single one of them approved me for it (kulluhum wâta’ani `alayh), so I named it ‘The Approved’." Imam al-Bukhari said that the soundest of all chains of transmission was "Malik, from Nafi`, from Ibn `Umar." The scholars of hadith call it the Golden Chain, and there are eighty narrations with this chain in the Muwatta’.


sallam

#2 Gypsy

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Posted 27 December 2002 - 07:18 AM

Copy Cats :)

Do you know what Golden Chain narration means?

It means that the person who relate the hadith must be from the 12 Imam of Ahlul Bayt and straight to our Holy prophet (pbuh&hf)

I guess Sunni must've liked the name. :D

#3 salmany

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Posted 27 December 2002 - 11:55 AM

sallam

lol cmon sis! Thats no big deal and it still didnt answer my queston :P

sallam

#4 abdul_hasnain

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Posted 27 December 2002 - 08:54 PM

i just wanted to know that if imams like malik and abu hanifa who were taught under imam jafar..why dont shias take their hadiths or accept their books? or do they?


Salams,

With regards to our Imams my friend, they were chosen by Allah. Shia fundamentals dictate that Allah does not leave an unjust authority as his representative on earth for that would imply that He who the representative represents is unjust. And Allah in not unjust. Therefore, for one to represent Allah there is no way that he can sin, and the only infallibles are chosen by Allah. The Imams chosen by Allah told people who the Imam after them was, they didn't choose. In the same way that Rasool Allah didn't choose Imam Ali, Allah did. These were the people who Ahlul Bayt (including Muhammad) told us that their obediance was an order from the quran.

Take note of the words of Imam Muhammad al Baqir, 5th Imam and father of Imam Jafar al Sadiq 6th Imam, when he adresses the 6th Imam:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Aban b. 'Uthman reported on the authority of Abu-al-Sabbah al- Kinam, who said:]
Abu Jafar Muhammad, peace be on him, looked towards his son, Abu Abd Allah Ja'far, peace be on him, and said (to us): "Do you see that man? He is one of those of whom God, the Mighty and High, said: We wish to grant a favour to those who have been humiliated in the land and we will make them Imams and inheritors [quran XXVIII 5].


The reason we didn't follow the Imams of the Ahlul Sunnah is because they were not Imams in the divinely appointed sense, like Imam Ibrahim (as) in verse 2:124, where Allah tells us that he was an Imam.
Imam Jafar Sadiq who was the recognized islamic authority in the world by imam Abu Hanifa, told people who the Imam after him was, and this is why we followed him and not the Imams of Ahlul Sunnah.


[Abd al-Ala reported on the authority of al-Fayd b. al-Mukhtar, who said:]

I (i.e. al-Fayd b. al-Mukhtar) said to Abu 'Abd Allah Ja'far, peace be on him: "Take my hand away from the fire (of Hell). Who is (the Imam) for us after you?"
Abu Ibrahim (Musa) entered - at that time he was a boy. Then (Jafar) said: "This is your leader (sahib). Keep close to him."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Ibn Abi Najran reported on the authority of al-Mansur b. Hazim, who said:]

I (i.e. al-Mansur b. Hazim) said to Abu 'Abd Allah, peace be on him: "(May I ransom you) with my father and mother. There is a great coming and going among men about (the succession). Since that is so, who is it?"
"Since that is so," replied Abu 'Abd Allah, peace be on him, "he is your leader."
He tapped the right shoulder of Abu al-Hasan (Musa). He was at that time, as far as I know, about five years old. 'Abd Allah b. Ja'far was sitting with us.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Musa al-Sayqal reported on the authority of al-Mufaddal b. Umar al-Jufi, may God have mercy on him, who said:]

I (i.e. al-Mufaddal b. Umar al-Jufi) was with Abu Abd Allah (Jafar), peace be on him. Abu Ibrahim Musa, peace be on him, came in. He was still a boy. Abu Abd Allah Jafar, peace be on him, said to him: "Indicate to those of your Companions whom you trust that the position of authority belongs to him Musa."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Thubayt reported on the authority of Muadh b. Kathir, on the authority of Abu Abd Allah Ja'far:]

I (i.e. Muadh b. Kathir) said to (Jafar): "I ask God, Who provided your father with you for this position, to provide you with one of your offspring for the same position before your death."
"God has done that," he answered.
"May I be your ransom, who is it?" I asked.
He indicated al-Abd al-Sarh (the pious worshipper of God) (i.e. Musa) to me. He was asleep.
"This one who is sleeping," he said. He was at that time a boy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


It is nothing personal to the Imams of Ahlul Sunnah, but as a part of Islam, we can not follow someone who has not been preffered to ahlul bayt. Inshallah that answers the concern.

By the way, the narrations from the Imams of Ahlul Bayt can be found on the al-islam website, here is Imam Jafar al Sadiqs link, http://www.al-islam....os/6thimam.html

#5 salmany

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Posted 27 December 2002 - 11:45 PM

sallam

I do not say follow brother. Im saying why dont you accept their books like muwatta and their hadiths. The author of al-kafi wasnt an imam and you accept his but the person who was taught by imam jafar and lived in his time why dont you accept or refer to those? Also brother what is your opinion on the chain malik to nafi to ibn umar?

sallam

#6 haideriam

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Posted 28 December 2002 - 03:45 AM

salam

brother salmany

one published a book in his own wright, the other just tried to write the sayings of the ali muhammad.

one thought he had understood it, the other did not

was salam

#7 salmany

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Posted 28 December 2002 - 03:53 AM

sallam

one got to acquire his knowldge fomr imam jafar and baqir..and that same one had the advantage of having a relationship with people who knew the sahaba..like nafi...Abd al-Rahman ibn al-Qasim ibn Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr al-Siddiq etc

sallam

#8 145_turbo_16V

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Posted 28 December 2002 - 05:13 AM

sallam

I do not say follow brother. Im saying why dont you accept their books like muwatta and their hadiths. The author of al-kafi wasnt an imam and you accept his but the person who was taught by imam jafar and lived in his time why dont you accept or refer to those? Also brother what is your opinion on the chain malik to nafi to ibn umar?

sallam

Salamu Alaikum,

Bro Salmany,

Why do we reject Imam Abu Hanifah's teachings? Because we think Imam Jaafar (as) had better more qualified students. Imam Abu Hanifa couldn't get the prayers with the arms on the side correctly, so what else does he have left? I wouldn't be surprised if our Marajae are more qualified than Imam Abu Hanifa.

Also in their teachings, they have failed to emphasize the importance of grabbing on to the safinat of Ahlul-Bayt.

#9 salmany

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Posted 28 December 2002 - 03:08 PM

sallam

i was talking about imam malik brother...im not say his teachings im saying his hadiths in his muwatta..

sallam

#10 abdul_hasnain

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Posted 28 December 2002 - 09:22 PM

Salams,

Brother, our hadith books (as far as I know) only contain hadiths about things that were spoken by "Ahlul Bayt (as)" only. Also the books of shia hadith were compiled by shia, who followed Ahlul Bayt only, people who believed in what we believed. Al-Kafi for example was compiled during the time of Imam Mahdi in his lesser occultation, and the compiler was a close companion of one of the 4 representatives of Imam Mahdi in his absence.

#11 abdul_hasnain

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Posted 28 December 2002 - 09:27 PM

The golden chain? I don't have any meaningful opinion about the chain in particular, I am no expert in chains of narration.

I sorta like Ibn Umar cause once he is recorded in a sunni source to have said "my dad didn't have the right to make mut'a haram". So good on him for that, otherwise if they didn't support Muhammad wa aaly Muhammad ... bi'sa ma kaanou yaf3aloon.

#12 salmany

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Posted 28 December 2002 - 10:56 PM

sallam

See this is wehre the problem comes. You do not just follow and accept the hadiths by ahly bait. There are many other matters that carry weight and have been told by the companions and as you know not all the hadiths are forged. The chain nafi to ibn umar seems valid. Counting the fact that his book muwatta also has narrations from imam jafar and qasim bin muhammad and others its odd why you dont take it as a source. Rejecting every hadith by a companion is illogical. Yes i say follow ahly bit but al-kafi contains much rubbish and you know it such as incompleteness of the quran and what abot the topic how imam mahdi will bring back to life hazrat aisha and abu bakr and umar and torture them?

sallam

#13 abdul_hasnain

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Posted 28 December 2002 - 11:05 PM

Azizy all i said, was that if they didn't quote from Ahlul Bayt (Includes Muhammad Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå) then it is useless information. It can't come through an untrusted source, I believe that scholars of Ahlul Sunnah agree on this.

sorry brother salmany, but i believe that a part of Allahs justice is his guidance to humanity and the completeness of his religion. Without the kutub al arb3a of the shia we would have no sunnah to follow in the absence of our Imam, so therefore for Allah's religion to be available on earth the sunnah must be as immaculate as the quran is.

The claims that you make about al-kafi, are actually sunni ones, i believe that aisha is quoted to have said that a goat ate the part of the quran, which said a woman can breast feed a grown man to become related to him (I think this was how she tried to justify her communicating with her commanders in the battle of the camel). I am willing to defend the quran and the sunnah. If you want to discuss al-kafi, inshallah we can all learn.

#14 salmany

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Posted 28 December 2002 - 11:15 PM

sallam
broither what abt the concept of raja..something like that...that will eventually occur when imam mahdi comes. Again like i said you cant just take the ahly bait and put a circle around them and say thats it no one else can say anything no one else can narrate a hadiths because its false. I am saying when someone has studied under YOUR IMAM and has quoted fomr him and people liek abur rahman ibn qasim whom you knw very well why would you say nay this is false? Also if his hadiths were in such favour of ummayads he wouldnt have been tortured..

sallam

#15 Hannibal

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Posted 29 December 2002 - 04:42 PM

Bismillah


Salam Alaikum



If a guy is known to consider the prophet and imams a liar then he cant be trusted.

If anyone says that the Prophet (s) didnt appoint the imams then he(Imam Malik) has called God a liar and that makes him a fasiq and according to quran, the saying of a fasiq must be checked and verified through reliable sources.Firstly we dont accept his traditions since we already have our own and he is a liar - Also about his hadith they would have to be verified one by one then they can be accepted, if there are other chains which narrate the same - So it depends on the multitude of chains.


Wasalam,Hezbullahi

#16 salmany

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Posted 29 December 2002 - 10:13 PM

sallam

you seem to be angry ... Look you can not call him a liar because if he was he wouldnt have been persecuted the way he was. He was taught by your imam and he quoted things from your imam. Also like mentioned he got his chain from a seemingly reliable source. I have not seen any person criticize ibn umar.
Also he never wanted to be an imam ..he never passed a fatwa..the people made him one after his death. Do not blame him.hope you understand:)

sallam

#17 Gypsy

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Posted 30 December 2002 - 12:16 AM

The bottom line is, when you have the knowledge of Holy Prophet at your disposal..Why go for a lesser mortal like imam malik, hanafi, shafie or hambali?

Br Salmany
I was told that most of Shia Alim and Ulama considers the Sunni Sahihs book and the 4 Sunni Imam book very inferior and not suitable as references book of Fiqh. We have thousands of Ulama with books that supersede all Sunni books combined.

Take Nahjul Balagha. This Book contains Sermons of Ali Ibn Abi Talib. A man second only to the holy Prophet (pbuh&hf) but the Sunni do not even acknowledge this book worthy of Study, while..They consider Book from Al-Bukhari and Muslim as their source.

Your other questions, Imam Malik Quoting something from Imam Jaffar Sadiq(as). That might be true, but he also mixed things that to his opinion might be true but to us shias it is not very accurate ..that is why we don’t consider these books as valuable.

#18 Hannibal

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Posted 30 December 2002 - 01:48 AM

sallam

you seem to be angry ... Look you can not call him a liar because if he was he wouldnt have been persecuted the way he was. He was taught by your imam and he quoted things from your imam. Also like mentioned he got his chain from a seemingly reliable source. I have not seen any person criticize ibn umar.
Also he never wanted to be an imam ..he never passed a fatwa..the people made him one after his death. Do not blame him.hope you understand:)

sallam

Bismillah


Salam Alaikum


I apologise if I gave you the impression that I was mad - My point is that he believes in shura when qur'an says imams are appointed by God - So yes, he has knowledge of this yet believes in shura - so this is calling God directly a liar.

- As for Abdullah ibn Omar, he is also known as one of the liars in hadith, I would not trust any person who would give baya to Yazid.

Wasalam,Hezbullahi

#19 salmany

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Posted 30 December 2002 - 02:02 AM

sallam

This is the first time i have heard this about ibn umar. Also who said he gave baya to yazid..he was one of the few people who tried to stop imam husain from going ..whis included ibn zubair and other sahabs. And plus at the time he was a very old man. In another post i saw a person saying he liked ibn umar. No shia scholar in my knowledge has criticized him or said his hadiths are fabricated as he neither held enemity to ali (ra) or the ahly bait (ra).

sallam

#20 Gypsy

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Posted 30 December 2002 - 02:27 AM

Br Salmany
Abdullah Ibn Umar was not a very good man. He was one of the supporters of Muawiyah. Didn’t you Read in Al Bukhari where it says Umar AlKhattab slash his own son for drunkenness?

#21 salmany

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Posted 30 December 2002 - 02:29 AM

sallam

no...my knowledge is lacking...can i please see some sources sis..

especially the muawiyah one..

sallam

#22 Hannibal

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Posted 30 December 2002 - 03:11 AM

sallam

This is the first time i have heard this about ibn umar. Also who said he gave baya to yazid..he was one of the few people who tried to stop imam husain from going ..whis included ibn zubair and other sahabs. And plus at the time he was a very old man. In another post i saw a person saying he liked ibn umar. No shia scholar in my knowledge has criticized him or said his hadiths are fabricated as he neither held enemity to ali (ra) or the ahly bait (ra).

sallam

Bismillah


Salam Alaikum


As you might know, Abdollah ibn Umar was a coward (I dont mean to offend you), he did give Baya not only to Yazid but his father (Muawiyah) as well.


Sahih al Bukhari;

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 434:
Narrated Ikrima bin Khalid:

Ibn 'Umar said, "I went to Hafsa while water was dribbling from her twined braids. I said, 'The condition of the people is as you see, and no authority has been given to me.' Hafsa said, (to me), 'Go to them, and as they (i.e. the people) are waiting for you, and I am afraid your absence from them will produce division amongst them.' " So Hafsa did not leave Ibn 'Umar till we went to them. When the people differed. Muawiya addressed the people saying, "'If anybody wants to say anything in this matter of the Caliphate, he should show up and not conceal himself, for we are more rightful to be a Caliph than he and his father." On that, Habib bin Masalama said (to Ibn 'Umar), "Why don't you reply to him (i.e. Muawiya)?" 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "I untied my garment that was going round my back and legs while I was sitting and was about to say, 'He who fought against you and against your father for the sake of Islam, is more rightful to be a Caliph,' but I was afraid that my statement might produce differences amongst the people and cause bloodshed, and my statement might be interpreted not as I intended. (So I kept quiet) remembering what Allah has prepared in the Gardens of Paradise (for those who are patient and prefer the Hereafter to this worldly life)." Habib said, "You did what kept you safe and secure (i.e. you were wise in doing so)."


Abdollah Ibn Omar also continued giving baya to Muawiyah's son Yazid - This is stated in Tabaqat ibn Saad volume 4,chapter 1 page 134.


He also considered Muawiyah and Yazid as part of the 12 righteous caliphs ;

Abdullah ibn Umar has said the following while trying to explain the tradition of the Prophet in which he said, "The caliphs after me shall be twelve; all of them are from Quraysh": This nation shall have twelve caliphs who are: Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq, Umar al-Farooq, Uthman Thul Noorain, Mu`awiyah and his son as the kings of the holy lands (Mecca and Medina), al-Saffah, Salam, Mansour, Jabir, al-Mahdi, al-Ameen, Ameer al-Asab, who all are from Banu Ka`b ibn Luayy, and they are righteous and peerless.

This is stated on p. 140 of al-Suyuti's book Tarikh al-Khualfa, p. 140. Kanz al-Ummal, Vol. 6, p. 67, and also in the history books of Ibn Asakir and al-Dhahabi



By the way - Why did Ibn Omar leave Imam Ali(as) out of the 12 righteous caliphs??? (In the above)


Take Care


Wasalam


Hezbullahi

#23 Hannibal

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Posted 30 December 2002 - 03:49 AM

Well brother Salmany ?

#24 salmany

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Posted 30 December 2002 - 03:59 AM

sallam

patience i wont run away :D yes ok good...i read another one like this aswell but his allegiance to yazid ...that to is in bukhari...abt ibn saad ill have to verify...because if you quote a sahih ill accept...others i dont because when i show someone they say this is not sahih so it could be false...i hop you understand..

sallam

#25 Hannibal

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Posted 30 December 2002 - 04:04 AM

Bismillah


Salam Alaikum


If you want - I can scan you the reference tomorrow since its a bit late right now and people are sleeping :(


My question to you was ; Why did Ibn Omar leave Imam Ali(as) out of the 12 righteous caliphs but he put Yazeed and Muawiyah in it?


Wasalam

Hezbullahi



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