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Birth of Imam Ali in Kaba


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#26 Sayeed786_110

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Posted 11 August 2004 - 11:20 PM

Hazrat Ali(as) lived 3 years of torture in sheeb-e-abi talib along the Noble messenger(saaw), While the brave hazrat umar...... dont know!?

Was he a muslim then??

#27 picard

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Posted 11 August 2004 - 11:20 PM

still waiting for ur reply

#28 Sayeed786_110

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Posted 11 August 2004 - 11:28 PM

Ive always been confused at what strength Umar brough to Islam? Maybe im wrong, or just and read the right books, but i have never heard Umar avenging the Prophet(saaw) in any circumstance, while during the early years you hear about Hazrat Hamza breaking Abu Jahl's nose when he hurt the Prophet(saaw).

Ofcourse ive heard of the instances recorded in the sahih collection when un armed men were around the Messenger(saaw), umar would be the first to offer to chop thier heads off!

Also if he was so scary, why didnt Hazrat Hamza fear him?? I thought the arabs were very close when it came to family bonds, considering it a insult for someone to attack a memeber of their tribe, that the reason sunni's give for Abu Talib defending the Prophet(saaw), family ties. So i was just wondering at what umar was doing when Hazrat Hamza broke Abu Jahl's nose? Wasn't Abu Jahl Umar's Uncle, from Umar's mom's side???

#29 perplexed

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Posted 11 August 2004 - 11:29 PM

Abdullah ibn Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu) narrates that once on the day of Jumu’ah, whilst Hadhrat Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu) was delivering the Khutbah, he (swerved off the topic and) suddenly said, ‘O Saariya! Hasten towards the mountain.’ He said this three times and then continued with the Khutbah. The people were confused and astonished at this. Later on, when he was asked as to what had transpired, he said, ‘I could see that the Muslim army was about to be defeated and at that time, they were walking past a mountain. If they had passed the mountain, the enemy would have defeated them but if they took to the mountain, they would have had one side covered and only one way to fight. So, I called out to the Ameer (leader) of the army (Saaiya) that they should take the mountain. After one month, the army returned victorious explaining that they had heard the words of Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu) on that very same day clearly. In other narrations, Hadhrat Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu) is reported to have said, ‘I saw the army fighting near the mountain…’ Another narration mentioned that the distance between Hadhrat Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu) and the army was the distance of one month’s journey.’

(Dalaailun nubuwwah of Abu Nu’aym vol.2 pg.579; Darun-Nafaais)


Hafiz ibn Hajar (Rahimulla) and Hafiz ibn Katheer (Rahimulla) have regarded these narrations as authentic refer al-Isaabah vol.3 pg.5 and Hayaatus-Sahaabah vol.3 pg.562-564

#30 perplexed

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Posted 11 August 2004 - 11:31 PM

can some1 give the full isnad&text for the birth in the ka'aba

yes I've seen that post above .. doesn't give source tho



it's valid query .. cos the topic started due to this ..

shud be able to provide the source .. @ topic starter

#31 picard

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 12:05 AM

Abdullah ibn Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu) narrates that once on the day of Jumu’ah, whilst Hadhrat Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu) was delivering the Khutbah, he (swerved off the topic and) suddenly said, ‘O Saariya! Hasten towards the mountain.’ He said this three times and then continued with the Khutbah. The people were confused and astonished at this. Later on, when he was asked as to what had transpired, he said, ‘I could see that the Muslim army was about to be defeated and at that time, they were walking past a mountain. If they had passed the mountain, the enemy would have defeated them but if they took to the mountain, they would have had one side covered and only one way to fight. So, I called out to the Ameer (leader) of the army (Saaiya) that they should take the mountain. After one month, the army returned victorious explaining that they had heard the words of Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu) on that very same day clearly. In other narrations, Hadhrat Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu) is reported to have said, ‘I saw the army fighting near the mountain…’ Another narration mentioned that the distance between Hadhrat Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu) and the army was the distance of one month’s journey.’

(Dalaailun nubuwwah of Abu Nu’aym vol.2 pg.579; Darun-Nafaais)


Hafiz ibn Hajar (Rahimulla) and Hafiz ibn Katheer (Rahimulla) have regarded these narrations as authentic refer al-Isaabah vol.3 pg.5 and Hayaatus-Sahaabah vol.3 pg.562-564


I'm afraid you will have to give either an online reference or a scan of the page since I dont have those books.
By the way, I though sunnis believed only Allah had knowledge of the unseen and no one else including the prophet pbuh or Ali (as) or Omer had knowledge of the unseen.

#32 perplexed

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 12:12 AM

took u a while to respond with "i'm afraid"

lol .. check the references

i'll challenge u or anyone to find them not authentic

anyone who has access to those kitaabs welcome to check up

#33 picard

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 12:16 AM

took u a while to respond with "i'm afraid"

lol .. check the references

i'll challenge u or anyone to find them not authentic

anyone who has access to those kitaabs welcome to check up



:) dont flatter urself my friend, i had a long distance phone call.

also u didnt answer the last part of my post

#34 perplexed

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 12:21 AM

see u going off-topic again

then u gonna blame me

some things shud be left a mystery ... don't u think ?

Edited by perplexed, 12 August 2004 - 12:22 AM.


#35 picard

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 12:25 AM

some things shud be left a mystery ... don't u think ?


:blink:

its not off topic...coz I am giving u a reason for discrediting that hadith. and i have no idea if ur trying to be funny or what with that mystery remark.

#36 picard

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 12:44 AM

99. We believe in what we know of Karamat, the marvels of the awliya' and in authentic stories about them from trustworthy sources


I'm not sure where u got that from or how authentic it is but it suits me for my purpose.
Here are instances of you and others contradict this in other threads:

Ok if he knew that who shimmer was, and what he was about to do in future, then what was the reason that he appointed him on an important post along with the favourite Ibn-e-Ziyad.


People still are saying something about ‘Ali.
That he nurtured, supported and favoured the Murderers of his own son, though he knew that they was about to kill him.


From the above: since u agree that shimmer and ibne ziyad did opress Imam Hussayn(as) the only thing u can be doubting from the above is the possibility of Imam Ali (as) knowing the unseen. SOmething which u now seem to support

oh and while digging thru other threads I also found this post from ur friend Racer

Can't accept if not in Sahihain (Bukhari, Muslim) or Sihah-e-Sittah.
Reliable sources please.


And u cant find ANY reference from Bukhari or Muslim to support ur hadeeth of Umar's 'mirracle'

#37 picard

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 12:50 AM

lol ..

is that the best u can come up with ?

;)

is that the best YOU can come up with?

(sorry for those of you who have to endure this)

#38 picard

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 12:57 AM

is that the best u can come up with ?



repeating it doesnt make it more believable

Isn;t it concept of Imamat that they know always whats going to happen ?

so he's just quering that why could hadrat Ali  not anticipate the hypocrisy of shimmer


So do you or do u not believe that the ahlebait had knowledge of the unseen, knowledge which u have attributed to Umar.
From hadeeth not found in Bukhari or muslim, the only two books ur friend racer deems authentic.

#39 perplexed

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 12:58 AM

hmm ..


############

racer's correct in his stance ..

Isn;t it concept of Imamat that they know always whats going to happen ?

so he's just quering that why could hadrat Ali (ra) not anticipate the hypocrisy of shimmer


########

Nonetheless it is incorrect to assume that all authentic narrations are found only in Sahih Bukhari/Muslim ..

actually if u look at that thread where u got that from ... I interjected and stated that the hadith were sound .. even though they weren't from Sahih Bukhari/Muslim regarding status of Hassnain (ra)

Edited by perplexed, 12 August 2004 - 12:01 PM.


#40 perplexed

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 12:59 AM

By the way, I though sunnis believed only Allah had knowledge of the unseen and no one else including the prophet  or Ali  or Omer had knowledge of the unseen.



The Aqeedah of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah is as follows:-


Aqeedah al Tahawi

98. We do not prefer any of the saintly men among the Ummah over any of the Prophets but rather we say that any one of the Prophets is better than all the awliya' put together.

99. We believe in what we know of Karamat, the marvels of the awliya' and in authentic stories about them from trustworthy sources

############

Some Clarifications

Ilm ul-Ghayb (knowledge of the unseen without any medium) is the special
attribute of Allah Ta'ala.

Pious people do not have knowledge of the unseen without any medium.

The Ilm al-Ghayb of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) was through Wahy (revelation) or Kashf (divine inspiration).

The knowledge of the unseen of pious people is also by Kashf

##############

In other words only Allah Ta'ala has full knowledge of the unseen.

Ilmul Ghaib refers to knowledge without any means whatsoever.

The belief that anyone, including Nabi pbuh, has knowledge of the unseen (aalimul-ghaib), other than that which Allah Ta'ala informed them about is tantamount to Shirk.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Edited by perplexed, 13 August 2004 - 08:21 PM.


#41 Vengeance110

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 01:22 AM

sadiyon ke intezaar ka kitna sila diya
dono jahaan ke sar mere jaanib jhukaadiya
terah (13) rajab ali se yeh bola khuda ka ghar
qibla mujhe to aap ne kaabah bana diya

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#42 majoo

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Posted 13 August 2004 - 05:39 AM

Thanx friends for replying back...

Actually I need references from history .......

I think Hakim in his Mustadrak has mentioned that incidence..

Correct me if I am wrong.

Regards

Mazhar urf majoo

#43 Baatil Ka Kaatil

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Posted 13 August 2004 - 06:10 AM

sadiyon ke intezaar ka kitna sila diya
dono jahaan ke sar mere jaanib jhukaadiya
terah (13) rajab ali se yeh bola khuda ka ghar
qibla mujhe to aap ne kaabah bana diya

Wah.....Jio!

#44 Jat

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Posted 13 August 2004 - 07:42 PM

(salam)

The crack in the wall of the Ka'ba has nothing to do with the birth of Hz Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. Please, look things up from proper references before you go around shooting your mouth.

The Ka'ba has been rebuilt many times. The latest time that I definitely know about is when it was destroyed by Yazid when he sacked Macca. Abdullah ibn Zubayr was hiding in Macca and he had not accepted Yazids caliphate.

Making false claims and statements can be extremely detrimental to our cause. We will lose credibility.

A word of wisdom but no one is paying any heed to it,i have been to Haram 3 times 92,94 and 96.I did not see any crack in the wall.

#45 Happy Independence

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Posted 14 August 2004 - 04:32 AM

A word of wisdom but no one is paying any heed to it,i have been to Haram 3 times 92,94 and 96.I did not see any crack in the wall.


Ever seen Kaaba full blown without black Hijab on it?

#46 qutb

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Posted 14 August 2004 - 07:56 AM

I'm really just curious. Do Alewi believe Imam Ali is greater in spiritual knowledge and station then Muhammad?

q

#47 Happy Independence

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Posted 14 August 2004 - 07:59 AM

I'm really just curious. Do Alewi believe Imam Ali is greater in spiritual knowledge and station then Muhammad?


Nope. And we are from Oneness and to It we shall return :)

#48 Happy Independence

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Posted 14 August 2004 - 03:33 PM

Posted Image

Now pinpoint the exact location of the crack.. any fellow shia please :D

I would like to know the exact height as well..

#49 qutb

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Posted 14 August 2004 - 03:55 PM

What is the exact relationship between Ali (ra) , Muhammad pbuh , and Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì? I'm not looking to attack you or find fault in you. I just want a clear answer so I can understand what it is that you believe.

thanks.

in peace,

q

#50 Happy Independence

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Posted 14 August 2004 - 04:01 PM

chill out dude.. the same belief as ithna ashris.. Muhammed and Ali are Nur Allah.. 'lightuponlight' ;)



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