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Birth of Imam Ali in Kaba

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Abdullah ibn Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu) narrates that once on the day of Jumu’ah, whilst Hadhrat Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu) was delivering the Khutbah, he (swerved off the topic and) suddenly said, ‘O Saariya! Hasten towards the mountain.’ He said this three times and then continued with the Khutbah. The people were confused and astonished at this. Later on, when he was asked as to what had transpired, he said, ‘I could see that the Muslim army was about to be defeated and at that time, they were walking past a mountain. If they had passed the mountain, the enemy would have defeated them but if they took to the mountain, they would have had one side covered and only one way to fight. So, I called out to the Ameer (leader) of the army (Saaiya) that they should take the mountain. After one month, the army returned victorious explaining that they had heard the words of Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu) on that very same day clearly. In other narrations, Hadhrat Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu) is reported to have said, ‘I saw the army fighting near the mountain…’ Another narration mentioned that the distance between Hadhrat Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu) and the army was the distance of one month’s journey.’

(Dalaailun nubuwwah of Abu Nu’aym vol.2 pg.579; Darun-Nafaais)

Hafiz ibn Hajar (Rahimulla) and Hafiz ibn Katheer (Rahimulla) have regarded these narrations as authentic refer al-Isaabah vol.3 pg.5 and Hayaatus-Sahaabah vol.3 pg.562-564

I'm afraid you will have to give either an online reference or a scan of the page since I dont have those books.

By the way, I though sunnis believed only Allah had knowledge of the unseen and no one else including the prophet pbuh or Ali (as) or Omer had knowledge of the unseen.

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took u a while to respond with "i'm afraid"

lol .. check the references

i'll challenge u or anyone to find them not authentic

anyone who has access to those kitaabs welcome to check up

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took u a while to respond with "i'm afraid"

lol .. check the references

i'll challenge u or anyone to find them not authentic

anyone who has access to those kitaabs welcome to check up

:) dont flatter urself my friend, i had a long distance phone call.

also u didnt answer the last part of my post

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see u going off-topic again

then u gonna blame me

some things shud be left a mystery ... don't u think ?

Edited by perplexed

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some things shud be left a mystery ... don't u think ?

:blink:

its not off topic...coz I am giving u a reason for discrediting that hadith. and i have no idea if ur trying to be funny or what with that mystery remark.

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99. We believe in what we know of Karamat, the marvels of the awliya' and in authentic stories about them from trustworthy sources

I'm not sure where u got that from or how authentic it is but it suits me for my purpose.

Here are instances of you and others contradict this in other threads:

Ok if he knew that who shimmer was, and what he was about to do in future, then what was the reason that he appointed him on an important post along with the favourite Ibn-e-Ziyad.
People still are saying something about ‘Ali.

That he nurtured, supported and favoured the Murderers of his own son, though he knew that they was about to kill him.

From the above: since u agree that shimmer and ibne ziyad did opress Imam Hussayn(as) the only thing u can be doubting from the above is the possibility of Imam Ali (as) knowing the unseen. SOmething which u now seem to support

oh and while digging thru other threads I also found this post from ur friend Racer

Can't accept if not in Sahihain (Bukhari, Muslim) or Sihah-e-Sittah.

Reliable sources please.

And u cant find ANY reference from Bukhari or Muslim to support ur hadeeth of Umar's 'mirracle'

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is that the best u can come up with ?

repeating it doesnt make it more believable

Isn;t it concept of Imamat that they know always whats going to happen ?

so he's just quering that why could hadrat Ali  not anticipate the hypocrisy of shimmer

So do you or do u not believe that the ahlebait had knowledge of the unseen, knowledge which u have attributed to Umar.

From hadeeth not found in Bukhari or muslim, the only two books ur friend racer deems authentic.

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hmm ..

############

racer's correct in his stance ..

Isn;t it concept of Imamat that they know always whats going to happen ?

so he's just quering that why could hadrat Ali (ra) not anticipate the hypocrisy of shimmer

########

Nonetheless it is incorrect to assume that all authentic narrations are found only in Sahih Bukhari/Muslim ..

actually if u look at that thread where u got that from ... I interjected and stated that the hadith were sound .. even though they weren't from Sahih Bukhari/Muslim regarding status of Hassnain (ra)

Edited by perplexed

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By the way, I though sunnis believed only Allah had knowledge of the unseen and no one else including the prophet  or Ali  or Omer had knowledge of the unseen.

The Aqeedah of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah is as follows:-

Aqeedah al Tahawi

98. We do not prefer any of the saintly men among the Ummah over any of the Prophets but rather we say that any one of the Prophets is better than all the awliya' put together.

99. We believe in what we know of Karamat, the marvels of the awliya' and in authentic stories about them from trustworthy sources

############

Some Clarifications

Ilm ul-Ghayb (knowledge of the unseen without any medium) is the special

attribute of Allah Ta'ala.

Pious people do not have knowledge of the unseen without any medium.

The Ilm al-Ghayb of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) was through Wahy (revelation) or Kashf (divine inspiration).

The knowledge of the unseen of pious people is also by Kashf

##############

In other words only Allah Ta'ala has full knowledge of the unseen.

Ilmul Ghaib refers to knowledge without any means whatsoever.

The belief that anyone, including Nabi pbuh, has knowledge of the unseen (aalimul-ghaib), other than that which Allah Ta'ala informed them about is tantamount to Shirk.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Edited by perplexed

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sadiyon ke intezaar ka kitna sila diya

dono jahaan ke sar mere jaanib jhukaadiya

terah (13) rajab ali se yeh bola khuda ka ghar

qibla mujhe to aap ne kaabah bana diya

post-3-1092291779_thumb.jpg

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Thanx friends for replying back...

Actually I need references from history .......

I think Hakim in his Mustadrak has mentioned that incidence..

Correct me if I am wrong.

Regards

Mazhar urf majoo

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sadiyon ke intezaar ka kitna sila diya

dono jahaan ke sar mere jaanib jhukaadiya

terah (13) rajab ali se yeh bola khuda ka ghar

qibla mujhe to aap ne kaabah bana diya

Wah.....Jio!

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(salam)

The crack in the wall of the Ka'ba has nothing to do with the birth of Hz Ali (a). Please, look things up from proper references before you go around shooting your mouth.

The Ka'ba has been rebuilt many times. The latest time that I definitely know about is when it was destroyed by Yazid when he sacked Macca. Abdullah ibn Zubayr was hiding in Macca and he had not accepted Yazids caliphate.

Making false claims and statements can be extremely detrimental to our cause. We will lose credibility.

A word of wisdom but no one is paying any heed to it,i have been to Haram 3 times 92,94 and 96.I did not see any crack in the wall.

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A word of wisdom but no one is paying any heed to it,i have been to Haram 3 times 92,94 and 96.I did not see any crack in the wall.

Ever seen Kaaba full blown without black Hijab on it?

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I'm really just curious. Do Alewi believe Imam Ali is greater in spiritual knowledge and station then Muhammad?

q

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I'm really just curious. Do Alewi believe Imam Ali is greater in spiritual knowledge and station then Muhammad?

Nope. And we are from Oneness and to It we shall return :)

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What is the exact relationship between Ali (ra) , Muhammad pbuh , and Allah (swt)? I'm not looking to attack you or find fault in you. I just want a clear answer so I can understand what it is that you believe.

thanks.

in peace,

q

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didn't the ka'aba at the time contained 360 or so idols ?

was only after Fatah-e-Makkah that they were destroyed

#####

just a thought

your thought is correct. But unless you claim otherwise, even with those idols, the kaaba remained the house of Allah. As before the conquest of Mekkah, Muslims prayed towards the kaaba which contained '360 or so idols'

If I am not mistakening, Muslims would not pray exaclty at the same place Hazrat Ali (ra) was born that is by 360 idols.

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Hazrat Ali(as) lived 3 years of torture in sheeb-e-abi talib along the Noble messenger(saaw), While the brave hazrat umar...... dont know!?

Was he a muslim then??

He might be on the side of Lord Abu Talib.

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By the way, I though sunnis believed only Allah had knowledge of the unseen and no one else including the prophet pbuh or Ali (as) or Omer had knowledge of the unseen.

1. You should first define what the knowledge of unseen is.

2. The incident of the war and the call of Hazrat Umar (ra) were at the same moment, as narrated in the hadith. So this knowledge has nothing to do with the Knowledge of unseen. For example today we can watch the criket match live from West Indies sitting in Pakistan. So criket viewers don't have the knowledge of unseen.

3. Unfortunately today's man of scientific blessings can't foresee things which are to happen in future or yes we could call him to have the knowledge of unseen.

4. Now, this is the superiority of Hazrat Umar (ra) over people that Allah showed him what was happening in the battlefield with Muslim Army.

5. Even all the nations along with Muslims know and recognise Hazrat Umar (ra) as a great ruler, conqueror and trend setter.

6. It was Hazrat Umar who extended the boudaries of Islamic State to the very corners of Asia and Africa and it was Hazrat Umar who defeated IRANIANS SO BADLY THAT THEY COULD NEVER STAND ON THEIR FEET AGAIN.

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chill out dude.. the same belief as ithna ashris.. Muhammed and Ali are Nur Allah.. 'lightuponlight' ;)

EDITED

Edited by Zareen

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chill out dude.. the same belief as ithna ashris.. Muhammed and Ali are Nur Allah.. 'lightuponlight' ;)

In Quran we read 1. Allah and we read 2. Nur and we Read 3. Muhammad but so sorry we don't read Ali.

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Ive realised now that these discussions can be like listening to the same record again and again and again etc etc.

The real name of the father of Hazrat Ali  was Abd Manaaf (slave of Manaf) and Manaf was an Idol in Ka'ba.

Do you accept that Abu Talib was the slave of an Idol?

It has been stated before on other threads that the real name of Abu Talib is a controversial issue among muslims, but majority of shia believe his REAL NAME to be IMRAN!! Now if you want to believe it is Abd Manaaf, then fine, nobody can stop you!!

In Quran we read 1. Allah and we read 2. Nur and we Read 3. Muhammad but so sorry we don't read Ali.

No, no need to be sorry at all brother. In fact, im sorry we dont read name of Abu Bakr or Umar. Therefore this means they were not really important people in Islam, and to believe them as RIGHTFUL successors of the noble Messenger(saaw) is not necessary, as it is not stated in the Quran Majeed.

Or maybe it is not necessary to believe in Caliphate of Abu Bakr? Ive asked before but got no response. Let me ask again, is it mandoatory within Islam to accept the leadership of Abu Bakr after the Prophet(saaw)? IF you do not accept him as your leader, what is the impact of this decision on your faith??

We shia are always attacked by questions like 'If Ali(as) is so important, then why is he not mentioned in the Quran by name?' or 'Where in the Quran does it say that Ali(as) is leader after the Prophet(Saaw), as this is a big issue for society, and it should have been addressed in the Quran!'.

Well we can ask you the same questions, 'If it is mandatory to believe in Abu Bakr as rightful leader then where does it say this in the Quran?' And if it is not such a major issue to follow Abu Bakr and believe him rightful (ie you are still considered a muslim and a believer even if you reject his caliphate) then let us be, as we follow someone else!

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1. Are you sure about that? Does it mention him positively or negatively? Just being mentioned in the Quran does not constitute being a devout individual. Even Abu Lahab has an entire surah devoted to him.

2. Imam Ali (as) is mentioned several times in the Quran, for example:

did you konw that the following verse is specifically about Imam Ali?

Certainly your Master is Allah and His Messenger and those who believe, who establish prayer, and give charity while they bow. And who ever takes Allah and His Messenger and those who believe as a guardian, so surely the party of Allah will be victorious.

(Quran 5:55-56)

Allah is telling us our masters are Allah, his Messenger, and 'those who ... give charity while they bow'

This is in specific reference to Imam Ali who gave a ring away in charity DURING salaat. This is recorded in Shia and Sunni tafsir. All one has to do is check.

3. Several Sunnis did.

4. Where does the Quran say that cursing a sahaba is grounds for kufr? I only remember Surah Munafiqeen...\

5. We're just listening to what hte Prophet said, have a problem? Take it up with in.

6. I wish you would follow the Quran then. Please refer to the Ayat above.

7. The Imammat is directly spelled out in the Holy Quran: please follow it.

002.124

YUSUFALI: And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

PICKTHAL: And (remember) when his Lord tried Abraham with (His) commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: Lo! I have appointed thee a leader for mankind. (Abraham) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said: My covenant includeth not wrong-doers.

SHAKIR: And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.

I shall further spell it out for you:

In part one of the story: Prophet Ibrahim was tested.

Part 2: He passed

Part 3: He was made an Imam to All nations

Part 4: He prayed for his offspring to be included as Imams

Part 5: Allah indicated that his promise of Imams in his offspring would not include those with sin.

I hope this is clear enough for you. I'm quite confused as to why you would not understand.

That being said, whats the problem? Allah appointed Imams from Abraham's offspring - as he promised to do. Imams are righteous leaders appointed by God. Thats what the Quran says, the Shias believe it. Whats the problemo?

-

Friendly Guy

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Oops, I forgot to address point 8

8. Sadly you are correct, as Abu Bakr was only a human being. Not a good one at that. You should read what he said from his death bed about his actions in life. You can probably find it in a Sunni bookstore.

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Believing Hadhrat Abu Bakr radhiyAllahu 'anhu as our Caliph is not an article of faith.

Believing Hadhrat Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu as your Infallible Imam is an article of faith, which is not mentioned anywhere in Quran.

So there is a basic difference between the two positions, and your comparing both of them was useless.

In my religion, cursing Saiyidina Abu Bakr and not accepting him as the successor of Prophet sallAllahu alayhe wasallam is Kufr, as in Quran, Abu Bakr radhiyAllahu 'anhu has been called the Companion of Prophet sallAllahu alayhe wasallam, and in the last verse of Al-Fath, Allah has promised the believers to grant them successorship, so denying the successorship of Abu Bakr is the denial of Quran which is Kufr in my religion.

Secondly the favourtie verse of Imamat deals with the Imamat of Hadhrat Ibraheem alayhis salam and not the Imamat of Ali.

third, the verse provided with to prove that it was for Ali, doesn't have any clear sign for Ali, anyone can be fitted there.

THE HIGH STATUS OF ALI, BEING SUPERIOR TO ALL PROPHETS DEMANDS A PROMINENT (CLEAR) POSITION OF ALI WITH OTHER IMAMS IN QURAN, which unfortunately is not available anywhere.

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Oops, I forgot to address point 8

8. Sadly you are correct, as Abu Bakr was only a human being. Not a good one at that. You should read what he said from his death bed about his actions in life. You can probably find it in a Sunni bookstore.

Abu Bakr is the Companion of Messenger sallAllahu alayhe wasallam in Cave Thaur which is mentioned in Quran, though Ali is not mentioned in Quran though he was sleeping on the bed of Messenger sallAllahu alayhe wasallam, at the time of Hijrah.

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