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Sufism - List of 12 Imams


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#26 Yemenite

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 01:01 AM

Man who the hell was this Jilani dude? How come he be one of those 12 caliph/imam? What was his credentials, that he could talk to angels?

#27 inuit

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 01:10 AM

Man who the hell was this Jilani dude? How come he be one of those 12 caliph/imam? What was his credentials, that he could talk to angels?

“Invite [ all ] to the way of the Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue [debate] with them in ways that are best.” (16:125)

#28 Yemenite

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 01:11 AM

ok... :Hijabi:

#29 Guest_Sufi_*

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 04:44 AM

Well my friend has taken a 4 years major in Islam. If Shiekh Abdul Qadir Jillani was the 11th imam then i think every website of his should be have the list of the 12. The reason i said they were the 11th Imam is b/c he was the last on to get Waliayth. Now moving further of course u guys there must be some proof of the 12 imams. I mean i don't make up stuff. Here is the place i found the proof.
The gist of the discussion is that the Prophet’s declaration at Ghadīr Khum proved forever that ‘Alī’s spiritual sovereignty is in fact the Prophet Muhammad’s spiritual sovereignty. Though the door of prophethood was closed after the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), Allāh opened new avenues for the continuation of the Prophet’s blessings till the Day of Judgement. Some of these avenues were manifest, while others hidden. The hidden avenue led to spiritual sovereignty and ‘Alī al-Murtadā (عليه السلام) was the first person to hold this office. Then this chain of sovereignty passed down to his progeny and finally to the twelve Imāms. During this period, many leaders appeared on the spiritual horizon but they all, direcly or indirectly, expressed their allegiance to ‘Alī al-Murtadā (عليه السلام). No one was disaffiliated from him and this chain will continue up to the Day of Judgement until the appearance of the last Imām (spiritual leader), and he will be Imām Muhammad Mahdī (عليه السلام), the twelfth Imām and the last caliph. In his person, the manifest and the hidden paths which ran parallel to each other will be rejoined, as he will be the spiritual as well as the political legatee, and he will be the last person to hold these offices. Any one who denies Imām Mahdī (عليه السلام) will deny both the manifest and hidden forms of religion.
This source can be found in Tahir ul Qadri's The Ghadir Declaration. And guess what i emailed to ask this question about this to these guys and i got no answer. :unsure:

#30 Guest_Sufi_*

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 04:53 AM

Man who the hell was this Jilani dude? How come he be one of those 12 caliph/imam? What was his credentials, that he could talk to angels?

“Invite [ all ] to the way of the Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue [debate] with them in ways that are best.” (16:125)

To be honest there is nothing wrong with the Shias. They are very good Muslims. i think they are on the Right path. ITs just the political difference they have with us. And i was very impressed by the great leader of Islam Ayatollah Khomeini. He was first and till now the only person too bring Islam back to power. But these idiot wahabis attacked him. If it wasn't for them then Islam would in power again.

#31 Yemenite

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 05:05 AM

The gist of the discussion is that the Prophet’s declaration at Ghadīr Khum proved forever that ‘Alī’s spiritual sovereignty is in fact the Prophet Muhammad’s spiritual sovereignty. Though the door of prophethood was closed after the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), Allāh opened new avenues for the continuation of the Prophet’s blessings till the Day of Judgement. Some of these avenues were manifest, while others hidden. The hidden avenue led to spiritual sovereignty and ‘Alī al-Murtadā (عليه السلام) was the first person to hold this office. Then this chain of sovereignty passed down to his progeny and finally to the twelve Imāms. During this period, many leaders appeared on the spiritual horizon but they all, direcly or indirectly, expressed their allegiance to ‘Alī al-Murtadā (عليه السلام). No one was disaffiliated from him and this chain will continue up to the Day of Judgement until the appearance of the last Imām (spiritual leader), and he will be Imām Muhammad Mahdī (عليه السلام), the twelfth Imām and the last caliph. In his person, the manifest and the hidden paths which ran parallel to each other will be rejoined, as he will be the spiritual as well as the political legatee, and he will be the last person to hold these offices. Any one who denies Imām Mahdī (عليه السلام) will deny both the manifest and hidden forms of religion.


Who is your 5th,6th,7th,8th,9th,10th and 11th caliph/imam/ulil Amr/etc?

#32 Guest_Sufi_*

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 05:07 AM

Hey it is written in Tahir Ul qadri's book. ANd i did email them and i got no response.

#33 Yemenite

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 05:14 AM

You don't even know the names of your caliphs/imams? If you do, then post them here..


Otherwise .. :rolleyes:

#34 Guest_Sufi_*

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 05:34 AM

inuit i have a list. I will wait for ur reply and then i will post it. It seems like somone here is ruining all the threads.

#35 Yemenite

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 06:47 AM

It seems like somone here is ruining all the threads.


Look at your avatar pic man.. Looks like a Malak to me :rolleyes:

#36 Guest_Toreador_*

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 07:36 AM

we all assume sufism started out as an esoteric branch of shi'ism,

what if it was the other way around and shi'ism is a sober offshoot of sufism?

just a thought



P S - why arent alevis muslim? the guy said the shahada

#37 Yemenite

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 07:42 AM

why arent alevis muslim? the guy said the shahada


They ARE muslims..

we all assume sufism started out as an esoteric branch of shi'ism,

what if it was the other way around and shi'ism is a sober offshoot of sufism?


Actually sufism is still searching for the truth (it's imams and et cetera).. shias know what is the truth.. that should clear the matter..

#38 inuit

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 09:48 AM

inuit i have a list. I will wait for ur reply and then i will post it. It seems like somone here is ruining all the threads.

you can post the list anytime. i check your posts

#39 inuit

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 10:52 AM

Hey it is written in Tahir Ul qadri's book. ANd i did email them and i got no response.

so this is the question.

May Allah help you!

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 11:27 PM

(salam)

ok i just browsed through the website that the brother posted
http://www.qadiri-rifai.org/

its the same story which i dont understand about the sufis.

why do they deny imammat on one hand and then have all their lineages go through the shia imams, the only exception being the naqshbandis who claim imam jafir as sadiq learnt "sufism" from his grandfather who was a disciple of salman al farsi thus tracing it back to abu bakr. which needless to say ofcourse is historically and factually horsespit.

so it leaves us with the question, what is the sufi concept of imammat? and how is it different then the "qutb"?

the title "imam" amongst sufis seems exclusive to shia imams.

wasalam

P S - even on the website there is this inert obsession with Ali (as). its like we'll belive in abu bakr and omar but when it comes to lineages and authenticity, coincidentally its always Ali.

Edited by Toreador, 29 June 2004 - 11:32 PM.


#41 Guest_Sufi_*

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Posted 30 June 2004 - 11:31 AM

Inuit there is no reference in the sunni sources that talks about the 12 Imams. However it talks about 12 Calipahs not Imams. The list i will give u is are Wali Allah that were especially chosen by Allah. They are the Wali's that had Waliyath.
-Hadrat Ali(r.a)
-Hazrat Hussan(r.a)
-Hadrat Hussain(r.a)
-Hadrat Zain ul Abedeen(r.a)
-Hadrat Muhmmad Bakir(r.a)
-Hadrat jafar Sadiq(r.a)
-Hazrat Musa Kazim(r.a)
-Hazrat Ali Reza(r.a)
-Hazrat Abdul Qadir Al Jillani(r.a)
-Imam Mahdi(r.a)
And ur question about wheter to call them (a.s) yes this can be done too. These are exalted saints of Allah.

#42 inuit

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Posted 30 June 2004 - 12:04 PM

Inuit there is no reference in the sunni sources that talks about the 12 Imams. However it talks about 12 Calipahs not Imams. The list i will give u is are Wali Allah that were especially chosen by Allah. They are the Wali's that had Waliyath.
-Hadrat Ali(r.a)
-Hazrat Hussan(r.a)
-Hadrat Hussain(r.a)
-Hadrat Zain ul Abedeen(r.a)
-Hadrat Muhmmad Bakir(r.a)
-Hadrat jafar Sadiq(r.a)
-Hazrat  Musa Kazim(r.a)
-Hazrat Ali Reza(r.a)
-Hazrat Abdul Qadir Al Jillani(r.a)
-Imam Mahdi(r.a)
And ur question about wheter to call them (a.s) yes this can be done too. These are exalted saints of Allah.

I wrote in another thread that Khalifa and Imam is like two faces of a coin.

For public/people/Awaam/nation that same person is the Leader.
and for higher authority(Allah & the holy Prophet pbuh) that same person is a Khalifa /successor /representative/responsible person. The top most wali of Allah is your imam, he is the person who deserve the khalafat especially chosen by Allah.

Here are number of reference from Sunni resources. and for using (A.S.) for them wait for my next post.



In Sahih of Muslim:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The [Islamic] religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh."

Sahih Muslim, (English version)
Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraysh and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraysh),
v3, p1010, Tradition #4483
Hadith #3398 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)


The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the twelve men , all of them from Quraysh."

Sahih Muslim, (English version)
Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraysh and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraysh),
v3, p1010, Tradition #4478
Hadith #3394 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)


Narrated Jabir ibn Samura: The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "This matter (life) will not end, until it is passed by twelve Caliphs ." He then whispered a sentence. I asked my father what the Prophet said. He said, the Prophet added: "All of them will be from Quraysh."

Sahih Muslim, (English version)
Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraysh and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraysh),
v3, p1009, Tradition #4477
Hadith #3393 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)


The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs , all of them from Quraysh."

Sahih Muslim, (English version)
Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraysh and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraysh),
v3, p1010, Tradition #4479
Hadith #3395 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)


The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs , all of them from Quraysh."

Sahih Muslim, (English version)
Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraysh and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraysh),
v3, p1010, Tradition #4480
Hadith #3396 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)


The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Islam will continue to be triumphant and protected until there have been twelve Caliphs , all of them from Quraysh."

Sahih Muslim, (English version)
Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraysh and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraysh),
v3, p1010, Tradition #4481
Hadith #3397 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)


In Sunan of al-Tirmidhi:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "There will be after me twelve Amir (Prince/Ruler), all of them from Quraysh."

Sunan al-Tirmidhi (Arabic)
Chapter of Fitan,
2:45 (India) and 4:501 Tradition # 2225 (Egypt)
Hadith #2149 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)


In Sunan of Abu Dawud:

This religion remains standing until there are twelve vicegerents over you, all of them agreeable to the nation, all of them from Quraysh."

Sunan Abu Dawud (Arabic)
2:421, Kitab al-Mahdi.

Sunan Abu Dawud (Arabic)
3:106, Kitab al-Mahdi.
Hadith #3731 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)


"The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs ," So people said Takbir and made noise, then he said a light word I didn't hear. I [Jabir bin Samura] said to my father: What did he say? He said "All of them are from Quraysh."

Sunan Abu Dawud (Arabic)
2:421, Kitab al-Mahdi.

Sunan Abu Dawud (Arabic)
3:106, Kitab al-Mahdi.
Hadith #3732 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)


In Sahih of al-Bukhari:

Narrated Jabir ibn Samura: I heard the Prophet saying, "There will be twelve commanders (Amir) ." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, the Prophet added, "All of them will be from Quraysh."

Sahih al-Bukhari (English)
Hadith: 9.329, Kitabul Ahkam.

Sahih al-Bukhari (Arabic)
4:165, Kitabul Ahkam.
Hadith #6682 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

These traditions are also narrated in other sources [1].

And in a tradition:

Then the Prophet (s.a.w.s.) spoke a few words which I could not understand. Then I asked my father: "What did the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) say?" He said: "All of them are from the Quraysh." [2]

And in another tradition:

"The enmity of their enemies will not harm them." [3]

And in another tradition:

"This nation will always remain straight in its affairs, and triumphant against the enemies, till twelve Caliphs will be among them; all of them from Quraysh. Then there will be discord and confusion." [4]

And in a tradition:

"There will be twelve upright Imams for this nation. Those who try to disgrace them will not succeed; all of them shall be from the Quraysh."

"The affair of the people will continue as long as twelve men rule over them."

And from Anas:

"This religion will remain till twelve Imams from Quraysh (will pass), then when they expire the earth will swallow its inhabitants." [5]

And in a tradition:

"The affair of this nation will always be apparent till the twelve Imams will rise, all of them from the Quraysh." [6]

Ahmad and Al-Hakim and others have narrated similarly from Masrooq who said:

"We were sitting one evening with Abdullah (ibn Mas'ud). We were reciting the Qur'an, then a man asked him: "O Abu Abdur-Rahman, did you ask the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) how many Caliphs will rule this nation?" Abdullah said: "No one asked me about this before you from the time I arrived in Iraq." He said: "We asked him (the Prophet s.a.w.s.), he said: "Twelve , (like) the number of the Chiefs of Bani Israel." [7]

And in a tradition:

Ibn Mas'ud said: "The Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) said: "There will be Caliphs after me, whose number is like those of the companions of Musa." [8]

Ibn Kathir said: "And there is a similar narration from Abdullah bin 'Umar, Hudhayfah and Ibn 'Abbas. [9]
However, I have been unable to find this tradition of Ibn 'Abbas or others as reported by Al Hakim Al Haskani.
The traditions assert that the number of authorities are twelve and all of them are from Quraysh, and, Imam Ali (peace be upon him) clarified it in his speech that they shall be from the Quraysh when he said: "Surely Imams will be from the Quraysh, they have been planted in this line through Hashim. It would not suit others nor would others be suitable as heads of affairs." [10]

And he said: "O Allah! Yes, but the earth is never devoid of those who maintain Allah's plea either openly and reputedly or, being afraid, and hidden in order that Allah's pleas and proofs should not be rebutted." [11]


Notes: Continue ...
  • [1]
    Muslim b. al-Hajjaj, Sahih, 3:1453, Tradition No. 1821, Kitabul Imarah.
    Al-Bukhari, Sahih, 4:165, Kitabul Ahkam.
    Al-Tirmidhi, Sunan, Chapter of Fitan, 2:45 (India) and 4:501 Tradition # 2225 (Egypt)
    Abu Dawud, Sunan, 3:106, Kitab al-Mahdi.
    Al-Tayalisi, Musnad, Tradition No. 767 and 1278.
    Ahmad b. Hanbal, Musnad, 5:86.
    Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-'Ummal 13:26-27.
    Abu Nu'aym al-Isbahani, Hilyat al-'awliya' , 4:333.
    Jabir bin Samurah bin Junada was the nephew of Sa'd bin Abi Waqqas. He died at Kufa. The compilers of traditions have narrated 146 traditions from him. For his biography, refer to Usd al-Ghaba or Taqrib al-Tahdhib.
  • [2]
    Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani, Fath al-Bari 16:338.
    Al-Hakim al-Nisaburi, Mustadrak al-Sahihayn 3:167.
  • [3]
    Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani, Fath al-Bari 16:338.
  • [4]
    Muntakhab Kanz al-'Ummal 5:321.
    Ibn Kathir, Ta'rikh, 6:249.
    Al-Suyuti, Tarikh al-Khulafa, Vol 10.
    Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-'Ummal ,13:26.
    Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqa Vol 28.
  • [5]
    Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-'Ummal , 13:27
  • [6]
    Ibid.
  • [7]
    Ahmad b. Hanbal, Musnad, 1:398 and 406.
    Al-Hakim al-Nisaburi, Mustadrak , 4:501
    Al-Dhahabi, Talkhis , 4:501.
    Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani, Fath al-Bari 16:339.
    Ali b. Abu Bakr al-Haythami, Majma' al-Zawa'id 5:190.
    Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqa, vol 12.
    Al-Suyuti, Tarikh al-Khulafa, Vol 10.
    [Al-Suyuti or al-Tabarani], Jami' al-Saghir 1:75.
    Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-'Ummal, 13:27.
  • [8]

    Ibn Kathir, Ta'rikh, 6:248.
    Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-'Ummal, 13:27.
    Al-Haskani , Shawahid al-Tanzil, 1:455, Tradition No. 626.
  • [9]
    Ibn Kathir, Ta'rikh, 6:248.
  • [10]
    Imam 'Ali b. Abi Talib [a], Nahjul Balagha, Sermon no. 142.
  • [11]
    Shaykh Sulayman Qanduzi al-Hanafi, Yanabi' al-Mawaddah, p. 523.


#43 inuit

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Posted 30 June 2004 - 12:19 PM

Here is the link of my research work about (A.S) used for Ahle Bait(AS)

Why Shia Muslims use (Alaih-Salaam) for Ahl-e-bait?

Some scanned webpages images from Sunni books are also posted on this page. If you face difficulty to access this website, please tell me.

You can also go through this debate on this forum; which we had couple of weeks before.

Why AS for Imams?, Why we use AS for Imams. NOT RA

Sideline Question regarding the list of Walies of Allah.

How would you differentiate other Auliya of Allah with these ones. Do you have a gauge or measuring tool to know about the level of their Walayat.

What about 2 and half (2 - 1/2) Qalandar concept in sufisam? ref Rabia Busri.

But main questions are 12 imams; and AS with Imams.

Wasalam,

Edited by inuit, 30 June 2004 - 12:19 PM.


#44 inuit

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Posted 30 June 2004 - 12:28 PM

Dear Sufi,

For more about Imams and Imamat you can see the following ongoing-discussion threads.

Imammat discussed in a nice way inshallah

Twelve Imams (AS) from Sunni sources

Doctrine of Immamat 2 Questions

Sunni Documantation on Imam Mahdi (AS)

Thanks

#45 GHULAAM E ABBAS

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Posted 30 June 2004 - 01:37 PM

Actually, they do. In fact, even the Shia say he was a Sayyid. Ayatullah Murtada Muttahari CONFIRMED he was a descedant of Imam Al-Hasan (as).

you got his shajara??

#46 Syed~Slave of Allah

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Posted 30 June 2004 - 02:00 PM

How do youpeople expect to unite as a gigantic muslim umma, if you can't even agree on the littlest things. I think muslims should unite then our nation would be strong. Do you ever see Catholic Christians fighting Lutheren Christians?? Obvisouly they have their differences, but they somehow pull it together, just like we should!

#47 ultra-muslim

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Posted 30 June 2004 - 03:18 PM

you got his shajara??



Actually, yes. Here you go:




The genealogical roots of Shaykh Abdul Qadir Jilani Rady Allahu Anhu can be traced to Habib ul Azam Sayyidina Muhammad, Sallallahu alayhi wa Sallam, as follows:

Gawth al Azam Sayyidina Shaykh ‘Abdul Qadir Jilani, son of
As-Sayyid Abu Salih Musa, son of
As-Sayyid Abdallah al-Jili, son of
As-Sayyid Yahya as-Zahid, son of
As-Sayyid Muhammad, son of
As-Sayyid Dawud, son of
As-Sayyid Musa, son of
As-Sayyid Abdallah, son of
As-Sayyid Musa al-Jawn, son of
As-Sayyid Abdallah al-Mahd, son of
As-Sayyid al-Hasan al-Muthanna, son of
Sayyidina al-Imam al-Hasan (ra) son of
Imam ul mashariqi wal magharib, Sayyidina Ali ibn Abi Talib (ra),
and of Sayyidatina Fatima az-Zahra (ra), the blessed daughter of
Khaatam an-Nabiyyin Habibi Rabbil aalamin Sayyidina wa Mawlana Muhammad ibn Abdillah, Nurin min Nurillah, Allahumma Salli wa Sallim wa Baarik alayh.

(cited by Shaykh Abdur Rahman ibn Shaykh Umar Ali al-Qadiri, in Al-Jawhar un Nafis, The Most Precious Pearls, p. 29).   






Here is the reference by Aytullah Murtada Muttahari, from http://www.al-islam....awhid/irfan.htm (originally written in "Ashnai ba ulum e Islami"):


4. 'Abd al-Qadir al-Gilani: 
He is one of the most controversial figures of the Islamic world. To him is attributed the Qadiriyyah order of sufis. 

His grave at Baghdad is well known and famous. He is amongst those from whom many supplications and high-flying sayings have been recorded. He was a sayyid descended from al-'Imam al-Hasan Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He died in 560/1164 or 561/1165. 


Edited by ultra-muslim, 30 June 2004 - 03:21 PM.


#48 inuit

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Posted 30 June 2004 - 09:00 PM

Siyadat of 'Abd al-Qadir al-Gilani is NOT the issue in this thread.
Question is 12 Imams in Sufism and using AS with Imams.

Edited by inuit, 30 June 2004 - 09:01 PM.


#49 Gideon

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 01:17 AM

-Hadrat Ali(r.a)
-Hazrat Hussan(r.a)
-Hadrat Hussain(r.a)
-Hadrat Zain ul Abedeen(r.a)
-Hadrat Muhmmad Bakir(r.a)
-Hadrat jafar Sadiq(r.a)
-Hazrat Musa Kazim(r.a)
-Hazrat Ali Reza(r.a)
-Hazrat Abdul Qadir Al Jillani(r.a)
-Imam Mahdi(r.a)


TEN? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10? :huh:

Where are the other 2?

#50 Gideon

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 01:18 AM

Muhammed Taqi, Ali Naqi, Hasan Askari..


It's quite funny that you remember Mahdi but forget his father and grand father .. :rolleyes:




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