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Sufism - List of 12 Imams

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The gist of the discussion is that the Prophet’s declaration at Ghadīr Khum proved forever that ‘Alī’s spiritual sovereignty is in fact the Prophet Muhammad’s spiritual sovereignty. Though the door of prophethood was closed after the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), Allāh opened new avenues for the continuation of the Prophet’s blessings till the Day of Judgement. Some of these avenues were manifest, while others hidden. The hidden avenue led to spiritual sovereignty and ‘Alī al-Murtadā (عليه السلام) was the first person to hold this office. Then this chain of sovereignty passed down to his progeny and finally to the twelve Imāms. During this period, many leaders appeared on the spiritual horizon but they all, direcly or indirectly, expressed their allegiance to ‘Alī al-Murtadā (عليه السلام). No one was disaffiliated from him and this chain will continue up to the Day of Judgement until the appearance of the last Imām (spiritual leader), and he will be Imām Muhammad Mahdī (عليه السلام), the twelfth Imām and the last caliph. In his person, the manifest and the hidden paths which ran parallel to each other will be rejoined, as he will be the spiritual as well as the political legatee, and he will be the last person to hold these offices. Any one who denies Imām Mahdī (عليه السلام) will deny both the manifest and hidden forms of religion.

Who is your 5th,6th,7th,8th,9th,10th and 11th caliph/imam/ulil Amr/etc?

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Hey it is written in Tahir Ul qadri's book. ANd i did email them and i got no response.

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inuit i have a list. I will wait for ur reply and then i will post it. It seems like somone here is ruining all the threads.

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we all assume sufism started out as an esoteric branch of shi'ism,

what if it was the other way around and shi'ism is a sober offshoot of sufism?

just a thought

P S - why arent alevis muslim? the guy said the shahada

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why arent alevis muslim? the guy said the shahada

They ARE muslims..

we all assume sufism started out as an esoteric branch of shi'ism,

what if it was the other way around and shi'ism is a sober offshoot of sufism?

Actually sufism is still searching for the truth (it's imams and et cetera).. shias know what is the truth.. that should clear the matter..

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inuit i have a list. I will wait for ur reply and then i will post it. It seems like somone here is ruining all the threads.

you can post the list anytime. i check your posts

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(salam)

ok i just browsed through the website that the brother posted

http://www.qadiri-rifai.org/

its the same story which i dont understand about the sufis.

why do they deny imammat on one hand and then have all their lineages go through the shia imams, the only exception being the naqshbandis who claim imam jafir as sadiq learnt "sufism" from his grandfather who was a disciple of salman al farsi thus tracing it back to abu bakr. which needless to say ofcourse is historically and factually horsespit.

so it leaves us with the question, what is the sufi concept of imammat? and how is it different then the "qutb"?

the title "imam" amongst sufis seems exclusive to shia imams.

wasalam

P S - even on the website there is this inert obsession with Ali (as). its like we'll belive in abu bakr and omar but when it comes to lineages and authenticity, coincidentally its always Ali.

Edited by Toreador

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Inuit there is no reference in the sunni sources that talks about the 12 Imams. However it talks about 12 Calipahs not Imams. The list i will give u is are Wali Allah that were especially chosen by Allah. They are the Wali's that had Waliyath.

-Hadrat Ali(r.a)

-Hazrat Hussan(r.a)

-Hadrat Hussain(r.a)

-Hadrat Zain ul Abedeen(r.a)

-Hadrat Muhmmad Bakir(r.a)

-Hadrat jafar Sadiq(r.a)

-Hazrat Musa Kazim(r.a)

-Hazrat Ali Reza(r.a)

-Hazrat Abdul Qadir Al Jillani(r.a)

-Imam Mahdi(r.a)

And ur question about wheter to call them (a.s) yes this can be done too. These are exalted saints of Allah.

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Inuit there is no reference in the sunni sources that talks about the 12 Imams. However it talks about 12 Calipahs not Imams. The list i will give u is are Wali Allah that were especially chosen by Allah. They are the Wali's that had Waliyath.

-Hadrat Ali(r.a)

-Hazrat Hussan(r.a)

-Hadrat Hussain(r.a)

-Hadrat Zain ul Abedeen(r.a)

-Hadrat Muhmmad Bakir(r.a)

-Hadrat jafar Sadiq(r.a)

-Hazrat  Musa Kazim(r.a)

-Hazrat Ali Reza(r.a)

-Hazrat Abdul Qadir Al Jillani(r.a)

-Imam Mahdi(r.a)

And ur question about wheter to call them (a.s) yes this can be done too. These are exalted saints of Allah.

I wrote in another thread that Khalifa and Imam is like two faces of a coin.

For public/people/Awaam/nation that same person is the Leader.

and for higher authority(Allah & the holy Prophet pbuh) that same person is a Khalifa /successor /representative/responsible person. The top most wali of Allah is your imam, he is the person who deserve the khalafat especially chosen by Allah.

Here are number of reference from Sunni resources. and for using (A.S.) for them wait for my next post.

In Sahih of Muslim:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The [islamic] religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh."

Sahih Muslim, (English version)

Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraysh and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraysh),

v3, p1010, Tradition #4483

Hadith #3398 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the twelve men , all of them from Quraysh."

Sahih Muslim, (English version)

Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraysh and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraysh),

v3, p1010, Tradition #4478

Hadith #3394 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

Narrated Jabir ibn Samura: The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "This matter (life) will not end, until it is passed by twelve Caliphs ." He then whispered a sentence. I asked my father what the Prophet said. He said, the Prophet added: "All of them will be from Quraysh."

Sahih Muslim, (English version)

Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraysh and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraysh),

v3, p1009, Tradition #4477

Hadith #3393 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs , all of them from Quraysh."

Sahih Muslim, (English version)

Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraysh and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraysh),

v3, p1010, Tradition #4479

Hadith #3395 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs , all of them from Quraysh."

Sahih Muslim, (English version)

Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraysh and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraysh),

v3, p1010, Tradition #4480

Hadith #3396 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Islam will continue to be triumphant and protected until there have been twelve Caliphs , all of them from Quraysh."

Sahih Muslim, (English version)

Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraysh and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraysh),

v3, p1010, Tradition #4481

Hadith #3397 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

In Sunan of al-Tirmidhi:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "There will be after me twelve Amir (Prince/Ruler), all of them from Quraysh."

Sunan al-Tirmidhi (Arabic)

Chapter of Fitan,

2:45 (India) and 4:501 Tradition # 2225 (Egypt)

Hadith #2149 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

In Sunan of Abu Dawud:

This religion remains standing until there are twelve vicegerents over you, all of them agreeable to the nation, all of them from Quraysh."

Sunan Abu Dawud (Arabic)

2:421, Kitab al-Mahdi.

Sunan Abu Dawud (Arabic)

3:106, Kitab al-Mahdi.

Hadith #3731 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

"The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs ," So people said Takbir and made noise, then he said a light word I didn't hear. I [Jabir bin Samura] said to my father: What did he say? He said "All of them are from Quraysh."

Sunan Abu Dawud (Arabic)

2:421, Kitab al-Mahdi.

Sunan Abu Dawud (Arabic)

3:106, Kitab al-Mahdi.

Hadith #3732 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

In Sahih of al-Bukhari:

Narrated Jabir ibn Samura: I heard the Prophet saying, "There will be twelve commanders (Amir) ." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, the Prophet added, "All of them will be from Quraysh."

Sahih al-Bukhari (English)

Hadith: 9.329, Kitabul Ahkam.

Sahih al-Bukhari (Arabic)

4:165, Kitabul Ahkam.

Hadith #6682 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

These traditions are also narrated in other sources [1].

And in a tradition:

Then the Prophet (s.a.w.s.) spoke a few words which I could not understand. Then I asked my father: "What did the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) say?" He said: "All of them are from the Quraysh." [2]

And in another tradition:

"The enmity of their enemies will not harm them." [3]

And in another tradition:

"This nation will always remain straight in its affairs, and triumphant against the enemies, till twelve Caliphs will be among them; all of them from Quraysh. Then there will be discord and confusion." [4]

And in a tradition:

"There will be twelve upright Imams for this nation. Those who try to disgrace them will not succeed; all of them shall be from the Quraysh."

"The affair of the people will continue as long as twelve men rule over them."

And from Anas:

"This religion will remain till twelve Imams from Quraysh (will pass), then when they expire the earth will swallow its inhabitants." [5]

And in a tradition:

"The affair of this nation will always be apparent till the twelve Imams will rise, all of them from the Quraysh." [6]

Ahmad and Al-Hakim and others have narrated similarly from Masrooq who said:

"We were sitting one evening with Abdullah (ibn Mas'ud). We were reciting the Qur'an, then a man asked him: "O Abu Abdur-Rahman, did you ask the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) how many Caliphs will rule this nation?" Abdullah said: "No one asked me about this before you from the time I arrived in Iraq." He said: "We asked him (the Prophet s.a.w.s.), he said: "Twelve , (like) the number of the Chiefs of Bani Israel." [7]

And in a tradition:

Ibn Mas'ud said: "The Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) said: "There will be Caliphs after me, whose number is like those of the companions of Musa." [8]

Ibn Kathir said: "And there is a similar narration from Abdullah bin 'Umar, Hudhayfah and Ibn 'Abbas. [9]

However, I have been unable to find this tradition of Ibn 'Abbas or others as reported by Al Hakim Al Haskani.

The traditions assert that the number of authorities are twelve and all of them are from Quraysh, and, Imam Ali (peace be upon him) clarified it in his speech that they shall be from the Quraysh when he said: "Surely Imams will be from the Quraysh, they have been planted in this line through Hashim. It would not suit others nor would others be suitable as heads of affairs." [10]

And he said: "O Allah! Yes, but the earth is never devoid of those who maintain Allah's plea either openly and reputedly or, being afraid, and hidden in order that Allah's pleas and proofs should not be rebutted." [11]

Notes: Continue ...

  • [1]
    Muslim b. al-Hajjaj, Sahih, 3:1453, Tradition No. 1821, Kitabul Imarah.
    Al-Bukhari, Sahih, 4:165, Kitabul Ahkam.
    Al-Tirmidhi, Sunan, Chapter of Fitan, 2:45 (India) and 4:501 Tradition # 2225 (Egypt)
    Abu Dawud, Sunan, 3:106, Kitab al-Mahdi.
    Al-Tayalisi, Musnad, Tradition No. 767 and 1278.
    Ahmad b. Hanbal, Musnad, 5:86.
    Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-'Ummal 13:26-27.
    Abu Nu'aym al-Isbahani, Hilyat al-'awliya' , 4:333.
    Jabir bin Samurah bin Junada was the nephew of Sa'd bin Abi Waqqas. He died at Kufa. The compilers of traditions have narrated 146 traditions from him. For his biography, refer to Usd al-Ghaba or Taqrib al-Tahdhib.
  • [2]
    Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani, Fath al-Bari 16:338.
    Al-Hakim al-Nisaburi, Mustadrak al-Sahihayn 3:167.
  • [3]
    Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani, Fath al-Bari 16:338.
  • [4]
    Muntakhab Kanz al-'Ummal 5:321.
    Ibn Kathir, Ta'rikh, 6:249.
    Al-Suyuti, Tarikh al-Khulafa, Vol 10.
    Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-'Ummal ,13:26.
    Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqa Vol 28.
  • [5]
    Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-'Ummal , 13:27
  • [6]
    Ibid.
  • [7]
    Ahmad b. Hanbal, Musnad, 1:398 and 406.
    Al-Hakim al-Nisaburi, Mustadrak , 4:501
    Al-Dhahabi, Talkhis , 4:501.
    Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani, Fath al-Bari 16:339.
    Ali b. Abu Bakr al-Haythami, Majma' al-Zawa'id 5:190.
    Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqa, vol 12.
    Al-Suyuti, Tarikh al-Khulafa, Vol 10.
    [Al-Suyuti or al-Tabarani], Jami' al-Saghir 1:75.
    Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-'Ummal, 13:27.
  • [8]
    Ibn Kathir, Ta'rikh, 6:248.
    Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-'Ummal, 13:27.
    Al-Haskani , Shawahid al-Tanzil, 1:455, Tradition No. 626.
  • [9]
    Ibn Kathir, Ta'rikh, 6:248.
  • [10]
    Imam 'Ali b. Abi Talib [a], Nahjul Balagha, Sermon no. 142.
  • [11]
    Shaykh Sulayman Qanduzi al-Hanafi, Yanabi' al-Mawaddah, p. 523.

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Here is the link of my research work about (A.S) used for Ahle Bait(AS)

Why Shia Muslims use (Alaih-Salaam) for Ahl-e-bait?

Some scanned webpages images from Sunni books are also posted on this page. If you face difficulty to access this website, please tell me.

You can also go through this debate on this forum; which we had couple of weeks before.

Why AS for Imams?, Why we use AS for Imams. NOT RA

Sideline Question regarding the list of Walies of Allah.

How would you differentiate other Auliya of Allah with these ones. Do you have a gauge or measuring tool to know about the level of their Walayat.

What about 2 and half (2 - 1/2) Qalandar concept in sufisam? ref Rabia Busri.

But main questions are 12 imams; and AS with Imams.

Wasalam,

Edited by inuit

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How do youpeople expect to unite as a gigantic muslim umma, if you can't even agree on the littlest things. I think muslims should unite then our nation would be strong. Do you ever see Catholic Christians fighting Lutheren Christians?? Obvisouly they have their differences, but they somehow pull it together, just like we should!

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you got his shajara??

Actually, yes. Here you go:

The genealogical roots of Shaykh Abdul Qadir Jilani Rady Allahu Anhu can be traced to Habib ul Azam Sayyidina Muhammad, Sallallahu alayhi wa Sallam, as follows:

Gawth al Azam Sayyidina Shaykh ‘Abdul Qadir Jilani, son of

As-Sayyid Abu Salih Musa, son of

As-Sayyid Abdallah al-Jili, son of

As-Sayyid Yahya as-Zahid, son of

As-Sayyid Muhammad, son of

As-Sayyid Dawud, son of

As-Sayyid Musa, son of

As-Sayyid Abdallah, son of

As-Sayyid Musa al-Jawn, son of

As-Sayyid Abdallah al-Mahd, son of

As-Sayyid al-Hasan al-Muthanna, son of

Sayyidina al-Imam al-Hasan (ra) son of

Imam ul mashariqi wal magharib, Sayyidina Ali ibn Abi Talib (ra),

and of Sayyidatina Fatima az-Zahra (ra), the blessed daughter of

Khaatam an-Nabiyyin Habibi Rabbil aalamin Sayyidina wa Mawlana Muhammad ibn Abdillah, Nurin min Nurillah, Allahumma Salli wa Sallim wa Baarik alayh.

(cited by Shaykh Abdur Rahman ibn Shaykh Umar Ali al-Qadiri, in Al-Jawhar un Nafis, The Most Precious Pearls, p. 29).   

Here is the reference by Aytullah Murtada Muttahari, from http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/irfan.htm (originally written in "Ashnai ba ulum e Islami"):

4. 'Abd al-Qadir al-Gilani: 

He is one of the most controversial figures of the Islamic world. To him is attributed the Qadiriyyah order of sufis. 

His grave at Baghdad is well known and famous. He is amongst those from whom many supplications and high-flying sayings have been recorded. He was a sayyid descended from al-'Imam al-Hasan (A). He died in 560/1164 or 561/1165. 

Edited by ultra-muslim

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Siyadat of 'Abd al-Qadir al-Gilani is NOT the issue in this thread.

Question is 12 Imams in Sufism and using AS with Imams.

Edited by inuit

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-Hadrat Ali(r.a)

-Hazrat Hussan(r.a)

-Hadrat Hussain(r.a)

-Hadrat Zain ul Abedeen(r.a)

-Hadrat Muhmmad Bakir(r.a)

-Hadrat jafar Sadiq(r.a)

-Hazrat Musa Kazim(r.a)

-Hazrat Ali Reza(r.a)

-Hazrat Abdul Qadir Al Jillani(r.a)

-Imam Mahdi(r.a)

TEN? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10? :huh:

Where are the other 2?

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Inuit its Shia that don't believe in Calipahs. They believe in Imams. According to the Sunnis Calipahs don't have to be Imams of Waliyath. In order to be Calipah one does not require Waliath.

Gideon The Mahdi that the Sunnis believe in is different compared to the Mahdi the Shia's believe in. And ur count from 1-10 i've already told u there is not such hadith that say anything about 12 Imams. Its says 12 Caliphas not Imams. According to the Sunnis the 12 Calipahs are not the neccessary the Imams of Waliyath.

The Shias cannot mix there Imams with our Calipahs. I hope we don't run into an agruement here. Do guys really see any point of agruing any futher? The Hadith says Imams. And according to the Sunni all the Sahabis are pious. Therefore they are all considered Imams.

Give me a Hadith from a Sunni source that says that the 12 Caliphas after Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) have to be Imams Of Waliyath. And besides Hazrat Abu Bakr(r.a), Hazrat Umar(r.a) and Hazrat Usman(r.a) were all Qurash.

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Inuit its Shia that don't believe in Calipahs. They believe in Imams. According to the Sunnis Calipahs don't have to be Imams of Waliyath. In order to be Calipah one does not require Waliath.

Gideon The Mahdi that the Sunnis believe in is different compared to the Mahdi the Shia's believe in. And ur count from 1-10 i've already told u there is not such hadith that say anything about 12 Imams. Its says 12 Caliphas not Imams. According to the Sunnis the 12 Calipahs are not the neccessary the Imams of Waliyath.

The Shias cannot mix there Imams with our Calipahs. I hope we don't run into an agruement here. Do guys really see any point of agruing any futher? The Hadith says Imams. And according to the Sunni all the Sahabis are pious. Therefore they are all considered Imams.

Give me a Hadith from a Sunni source that says that the 12 Caliphas after Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) have to be Imams Of Waliyath. And besides Hazrat Abu Bakr(r.a), Hazrat Umar(r.a) and Hazrat Usman(r.a) were all Qurash.

(salam)

ok

then who are those 12 sunni "caliphs?"

brother are you representing sufis or sunnis?

wasalam

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All Sufis are Sunnis. They are not a different sect. As W.H Mcleod says "The sufis are the strict sunnis." As i said before anyone that knows the Quran and Sunnah can qualify as a Calipah. Sp that list does start at Hazrat Abu Bakr(r.a)

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Inuit its Shia that don't believe in Calipahs. They believe in Imams. According to the Sunnis Calipahs don't have to be Imams of Waliyath. In order to be Calipah one does not require Waliath.

Gideon The Mahdi that the Sunnis believe in is different compared to the Mahdi the Shia's believe in. And ur count from 1-10 i've already told u there is not such hadith that say anything about 12 Imams. Its says 12 Caliphas not Imams. According to the Sunnis the 12 Calipahs are not the neccessary the Imams of Waliyath.

The Shias cannot mix there Imams with our Calipahs. I hope we don't run into an agruement here. Do guys really see any point of agruing any futher? The Hadith says Imams.  And according to the Sunni all the Sahabis are pious. Therefore they are all considered Imams.

Give me a Hadith from a Sunni source that says that the 12 Caliphas after Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) have to be Imams Of Waliyath. And besides Hazrat Abu Bakr(r.a), Hazrat Umar(r.a) and Hazrat Usman(r.a) were all Qurash.

Before I give you any hadith from a Sunni source that says that the 12 Caliphs after Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) have to be Imams Of Waliyath. First you provide me a hadith from a Shia source that Khalifa and Imam are two different personalities. Despite the fact that so far you haven’t provided me any hadith for the 10 Walies in your previous message neither I will ask you for it.

Secondly this is another debatable topic between u and me that All Sahabas were pious; (or Aadil) we should leave it until we finish the ongoing issues.

Shia believe that there are 12 successors of the Holy Prophets. They are their (Shia’s) Imams and Prophet’s Khalifas. To make you very easy to understand. These 12s(AS) are not Shia(people’s) Khalifas but Prophet’s khalifas; similarly they are shia’s Imams, not the prophet’s Imams. I wrote it earlier the these two terms are used for single personality from two different angels(direction) if you look from the direction of Ummah then these are Imams or leaders and if you look from the direction of Allah or Prophet (the higher authorities) then these pious personalities are their khalifas, their representators,

Khalafat does not mean “power”. If you understand urdu language:

Khalifa mean “pichay pichay aanay wala”

Imam mean “aagay aagay chulnay wala”

We can not associate Imamat and Khalafat with physical power (kingdom) in this world.

“He is in power” and It’s his “right to be in power” are two different things.

No body can snatch the title of Imamat and Khalafat from them. Similarly nobody can snatch the “right to become in power” from them. If they are not in power its not their fault, its Ummah’s fault in other words its our fault; Ummah is not recognizing them.

Example of Imam Hussain (AS) is with you; He is Imam of Ummah and Khalifa of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) and he had the “right become in power”.

Waliath is closeness to Allah which is the requirement for that person who is Imam of Ummah and Khalifa of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Allah has chosen only those people as His Khalifa who are close to him. And it’s for people to follow only those people in all walks of life and they are imams/khalifa. They can not go astray since they can not do any wrong. That is why there had and there will never be a chance of public/ummah agitation against them.

Take the example what they do in Sufism. The only one has the “right to became khalifa” of a Sufi saint who is more in degree of Walayat not the power. Nobody can steal that title from him.

In this context please answer me the following question:

Question: How come your leaders which you name them Khalifa "your Khalifa", "Your successor”? They can be successors of Prophet(PBUH). Vis-a-vis how can those Leaders for which you name them as a term Khalifa not your Imam. Don’t they lead you?

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All Sufis are Sunnis. They are not a different sect. As W.H Mcleod says "The sufis are the strict sunnis." As i said before anyone that knows the Quran and Sunnah can qualify as a Calipah. Sp that list does start at Hazrat Abu Bakr(r.a)

-- Dear Sufi Read my previous msg as well ----

All Sufis are Sunnis but it doesn’t mean that all Sunnies are Sufies. There are many different sects in sunnies, sometime sunnies themselves present different sects as sunnies to increase their population. To pretend that they are dominating and mainstream sect of islam. All says that they are strict sects.

This is also not true that whoever knows the Quran and Sunnah can qualify as a Khalifa. There are other mandatory requirements for a Khalifa i.e. all sunnies who follow hadith say that he must be from Quraish. It means a person who is from Quraish and he knows about Quran and Sunnah very well as compared to other Quraishies; he can be a khalifa. From other nations even if he know Quran and sunnah very well as compared to a other people cant be a Khalifa. Think about it.

Question: How would gauge the qualification for a Khalifa? You must have certain level of understanding to know about him and his qualification.

Thanks for using shiachat.com

Wasalam,

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All Sufis are Sunnis. They are not a different sect. As W.H Mcleod says "The sufis are the strict sunnis." As i said before anyone that knows the Quran and Sunnah can qualify as a Calipah. Sp that list does start at Hazrat Abu Bakr(r.a)

(salam)

lets not try to be slick about anything, brother. sufis are considered a bidah among nearly all sunni ulemah i've come across. truth is sunnis are just as ready to watch their hands of sufis as they are of shias. thats why a lot of sunni brothers are hesitant to defend you on this site.

and as for my 2nd point. it is interesting you should say abu bakr is your first khalifa when all sufi tariqa chains go through shia imams. so let me ask you if abu bakr is your first khalifa (of 12) then who are the other 11?

wasalam

P S - the safavids were sufis. so are the bektashis. so no, all sufis are NOT sunnis.

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P S - the safavids were sufis. so are the bektashis. so no, all sufis are NOT sunnis.

The Safavids were NOT Sufis. They were called Kizilbash (red-hats), and they were Alevis. They were ghulaat of Turkish origin.

-MZA

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P S - the safavids were sufis. so are the bektashis. so no, all sufis are NOT sunnis.

The Safavids were NOT Sufis. They were called Kizilbash (red-hats), and they were Alevis. They were ghulaat of Turkish origin.

-MZA

(salam)

that is your own personal opinion, brother. from what i kno, and from generally accepted opinion of all historians, safavids were sufis. and alevis which you are trying separate yourself from DO have sufi origins (bektashi). ghulat or not, they were nonetheless sufis.

wasalam

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that is your own personal opinion, brother. from what i kno, and from generally accepted opinion of all historians, safavids were sufis.

It isn't my opinion. You are 1/2 right.

The Safis were a sufi order. They were also Sunni. They were lead by Ismail as-Safavi's grandfather and father.

When Ismail as-Safavi became head of the order by inheritance he changed everything, as he had become an extremist Shia (a ghulat) and adopted the Alevi beleifs.

and alevis which you are trying separate yourself from DO have sufi origins (bektashi). ghulat or not, they were nonetheless sufis.

You are 1/2 right again. The Bektashis are not ALL Alevis; infact the average Bektashis are considered orthodox Sufi. But Alevis have adopted the Bektashi name and fused with the local Bektashis.

-MZA

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lets not try to be slick about anything, brother. sufis are considered a bidah among nearly all sunni ulemah i've come across. truth is sunnis are just as ready to watch their hands of sufis as they are of shias. thats why a lot of sunni brothers are hesitant to defend you on this site.

Real Sunni Islam is fully cognizant of Sufism and accepts it 100%.

If a Sunni denies tasawwuf, he probably isn't a Sunni, but a Salafi/Wahhabi.

For more info:

www.sunnipath.com

and as for my 2nd point. it is interesting you should say abu bakr is your first khalifa when all sufi tariqa chains go through shia imams. so let me ask you if abu bakr is your first khalifa (of 12) then who are the other 11?

These are issues of esoteric debate and are not set in stone.

I question why brother Sufi would even open such a topic among the non-Sufi?

-MZA

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