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Shia view on Salafi's


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#1 SShah

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 07:40 PM

(bismillah)

Asalam alaikam,

I have numerous Salafi friends over here, and i was wanting to know from my point of view, a Shia point of view, what is it that we regard as being wrong in their beliefs?

According to them, all they do is follow the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet pbuh

So where do they go wrong?

Please can you provide as much evidence supporting your replies as possible.

Thank you!

Allah Hafiz

#2 Patience

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 03:33 AM

According to them, all they do is follow the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet pbuh

So where do they go wrong?

The Prophet pbuh didnt leave 'sunnah'. Its nothing tangible.

He pbuh left the Quran and Ahle Bait for us to embrace. Had Umar listened to the dying prophet pbuh on his deathbed, we may have had a written instruction, but Umars flagrant digression prevented the Ummah for having it.

Salaf is a bidah ideology- its about as relevent as aetheism is to Islam.

#3 SShah

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 06:36 AM

These salafs argue that the Prophet pbuh left the Quran and his Sunnah for us to follow.

When i say to them that no, he left the Ahle-bait, they reply - "if he had not left the sunnah, how would we have learnt how to pray and how to perform ablution etc etc??" :unsure:

They say that it is logical that the Prophet pbuh left his sunnah, because without the sunnah we wouldnt be able to perform many of our acts in our lives.

#4 tahasyed

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 07:55 AM

the salafis try to follow the sunnah of the salaf (earliest muslims) in the hope and assumption that their Islam is the closest to the Islam of the Prophet. (pbuh)

#5 Scorpio

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 08:25 AM

When i say to them that no, he left the Ahle-bait, they reply - "if he had not left the sunnah, how would we have learnt how to pray and how to perform ablution etc etc??" :unsure:

LOL. :D

Qur'an 5:6: " O you who believe! when you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash (yourselves) and if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy, or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith, Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful"

I think the word in bold says it all. :)

#6 Abdulhujjah

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 11:14 PM

These salafs argue that the Prophet pbuh left the Quran and his Sunnah for us to follow.

When i say to them that no, he left the Ahle-bait, they reply - "if he had not left the sunnah, how would we have learnt how to pray and how to perform ablution etc etc??" :unsure:

They say that it is logical that the Prophet pbuh left his sunnah, because without the sunnah we wouldnt be able to perform many of our acts in our lives.

(bismillah)


In Saheeh Muslim it says his itra (Ahlul Bait (as) ) not sunnah, the only book to say sunnah isnt even in the sihaah al sittah, Muwatta' Malik ibn anas.


Wassalaam

#7 Al Hajjaj

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Posted 06 May 2004 - 01:03 AM

The Salafi Da'wah calls for holding to Qur'an & Sunnah as understood and practiced by the Companions and Tabi'een who transmitted the faith to us. The Salafis are known for their fight of innovations in faith.

#8 IWN

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Posted 06 May 2004 - 01:12 AM

Actually, the Salafis are known for their Nasibi innovations such as forbidding Dua after Salah, forbidding sending blessings on AhlulBayt, etc.

Furthermore, they wholeheartedly support the Bidahs of Umar, their Nasibi Forefather. The Bidahs of Umar include Tarawih Prayers, Distorting the Adhan, forbidding Mutah marriage.

#9 Al Hajjaj

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Posted 06 May 2004 - 01:19 AM

but not all salafee are wahabis rite? and i think we cant judge wheter they wrong or not cuz its Allah's decision, as long as dey not against the ahlul bayt..


Imam Muhammad bin Abdul-Wahhab simply renewed the call for holding on to Qur'an & Sunnah, and foresaking Bid'ah and acts of shirk. There's nothing tha he called for, which can't be substantiated from early scholars of Islam and the Shi'ites Imams.

#10 IWN

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Posted 06 May 2004 - 01:20 AM

Please read the following articles on Salafis:

http://www.answering...sm/en/index.php

http://www.answering...is/en/index.php

http://www.answering...es/en/index.php

#11 Patience

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Posted 06 May 2004 - 01:21 AM

The Salafi Da'wah calls for holding to Qur'an & Sunnah as understood and practiced by the Companions and Tabi'een who transmitted the faith to us. The Salafis are known for their fight of innovations in faith.

I'd like to know on whose religious authority this 'Salaf' movement was given blessing? by Allah SWT?

The sect itself is based in bidah and shirk. These salafies are known for their intolerance of anyone but their own, their hadith are all but weak and fabricated and have pure innovation in their practices in beliefs.

Any sect who forbids any dua after prayer (like the 'salafs') is not worthy to even look at a prayer mat, let alone touch it.

Edited by Patience, 06 May 2004 - 01:24 AM.


#12 IWN

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Posted 06 May 2004 - 01:25 AM

Another, very EVIL innovation of the Salafis, is that they truncate, or abbreviate the normal phrase "Peace Be Upon Him and His Family"

Sal Allaho Alayhe Wa Aalahee Wasalam,

to

Sal Allaho Alayhe Wassalam.

=======
It is funny how they say it very quickly, in a pathetic attempt to try to prevent the average Sunni from hearing the innovation.

#13 Patience

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Posted 06 May 2004 - 01:29 AM

but not all salafee are wahabis rite? and i think we cant judge wheter they wrong or not cuz its Allah's decision, as long as dey not against the ahlul bayt..


Imam Muhammad bin Abdul-Wahhab simply renewed the call for holding on to Qur'an & Sunnah, and foresaking Bid'ah and acts of shirk. There's nothing tha he called for, which can't be substantiated from early scholars of Islam and the Shi'ites Imams.

Imam my foot. :!!!:

Wahab is no Imam- who gave him that title? Show with Quranic proof he is an 'imam'.

He is nothing but a man who followed the bidah path of Umar and ventured in shirk, for which Allah SWT has said that there is no mercy.

Guess he is off to share a hotbed with the Devil then :!!!:

#14 IWN

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Posted 06 May 2004 - 01:36 AM

Wahab was no imam...he was a client agent of the Zionist British who wanted to plant the seeds of evil in the heart of the Muslim land... they used Wahab to gain control over the land of Mecca and Medina, and in effect to perpetuate Zionist tyranny over the entire Middle East.

He was an ally of the Zionists, and therefore his successors, the Royal Family of Saudi Arabia, are also allies of the Zionists.

This is manifest today, as the evil kingdom of the Wahabis is the foremost ally of the Zionists, while the Shia state of Iran is the Zionists greatest fear and enemy.

Peace be on the AhlulBayt for whom this world was created.

Humiliation and ignominy has been reserved for the Nasibis, Wahabis, and their forefathers.

#15 zainabia

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Posted 06 May 2004 - 02:29 AM

Please read the following articles on Salafis:

http://www.answering...sm/en/index.php

http://www.answering...is/en/index.php

http://www.answering...es/en/index.php


Bismillah

Salam Alaikum

Brother, I would strongly recommed to read the above mentioned articles in order to know Salafies better.

And I would also include in it the "Bidah" article by AA (strongly recommended).

==================

And I would suggest to try to know what is the difference between "Salafies and Sunnies" first, and then pass on to "Salafies vs. Shias".

Most commonly difference between Salafies and Sunnies is:

Salafies know only 4 words i.e. Shirk, Kufr, Bidah, Haram.
(The reason for this is Disease of Literalism, which you will read in the above mentioned articles of AA).

===================

When Salafies say that they follow Quran and Sunnah of Rasool Allah (saw), they are lying.

They have openly claimed that they follow the Sunnah/Bidah of 4 Rightly Guided Caliphs. And for this they bring a weak hadith too.

Please see this whole discussion of in "Bidah" article of AA at:

http://www.answering...ah/en/chap6.php


And we shias follow the Sunnah of Rasool Allah (i.e. Islamic Sharia) which has been transmitted to us by his Ahle Bait (i.e. Aima of Ahle Bait didn't bring any thing new at their own, while Sharia is only from Allah).

(no time to discuss further as bell of my lecture is ringing. :)


Was Salam.

#16 Al Hajjaj

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Posted 06 May 2004 - 03:00 AM

And we shias follow the Sunnah of Rasool Allah


:D In the very words of your fellow, above:The Prophet didnt leave 'sunnah'.

Can you Shi'ites settle on a single story?

#17 Jat

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Posted 06 May 2004 - 05:28 AM

Please read the following articles on Salafis:

http://www.answering...sm/en/index.php

http://www.answering...is/en/index.php

http://www.answering...es/en/index.php


Bismillah

Salam Alaikum

Brother, I would strongly recommed to read the above mentioned articles in order to know Salafies better.

And I would also include in it the "Bidah" article by AA (strongly recommended).

==================

And I would suggest to try to know what is the difference between "Salafies and Sunnies" first, and then pass on to "Salafies vs. Shias".

Most commonly difference between Salafies and Sunnies is:

Salafies know only 4 words i.e. Shirk, Kufr, Bidah, Haram.
(The reason for this is Disease of Literalism, which you will read in the above mentioned articles of AA).

===================

When Salafies say that they follow Quran and Sunnah of Rasool Allah (saw), they are lying.

They have openly claimed that they follow the Sunnah/Bidah of 4 Rightly Guided Caliphs. And for this they bring a weak hadith too.

Please see this whole discussion of in "Bidah" article of AA at:

http://www.answering...ah/en/chap6.php


And we shias follow the Sunnah of Rasool Allah (i.e. Islamic Sharia) which has been transmitted to us by his Ahle Bait (i.e. Aima of Ahle Bait didn't bring any thing new at their own, while Sharia is only from Allah).

(no time to discuss further as bell of my lecture is ringing. :)


Was Salam.

And we shias follow the Sunnah of Rasool Allah (i.e. Islamic Sharia) which has been transmitted to us by his Ahle Bait (i.e. Aima of Ahle Bait didn't bring any thing new at their own, while Sharia is only from Allah).


Dil key behlaney ko Ghaalib ye khayal achha hai

Show me the proof where did Allah and Rasool(S A W) cursed Ummulmomineen Ayesha (ra) ?
How come u curse "Harm e Nabi" pbuh and still claim to love him.
How come u think your wife or woman can be better than Ummahaatulmomineen(Rizwanullah um Ajmaeen).

#18 zainabia

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Posted 06 May 2004 - 09:00 AM

Please read the following articles on Salafis:

http://www.answering...sm/en/index.php

http://www.answering...is/en/index.php

http://www.answering...es/en/index.php


Bismillah

Salam Alaikum

Brother, I would strongly recommed to read the above mentioned articles in order to know Salafies better.

And I would also include in it the "Bidah" article by AA (strongly recommended).

==================

And I would suggest to try to know what is the difference between "Salafies and Sunnies" first, and then pass on to "Salafies vs. Shias".

Most commonly difference between Salafies and Sunnies is:

Salafies know only 4 words i.e. Shirk, Kufr, Bidah, Haram.
(The reason for this is Disease of Literalism, which you will read in the above mentioned articles of AA).

===================

When Salafies say that they follow Quran and Sunnah of Rasool Allah (saw), they are lying.

They have openly claimed that they follow the Sunnah/Bidah of 4 Rightly Guided Caliphs. And for this they bring a weak hadith too.

Please see this whole discussion of in "Bidah" article of AA at:

http://www.answering...ah/en/chap6.php


And we shias follow the Sunnah of Rasool Allah (i.e. Islamic Sharia) which has been transmitted to us by his Ahle Bait (i.e. Aima of Ahle Bait didn't bring any thing new at their own, while Sharia is only from Allah).

(no time to discuss further as bell of my lecture is ringing. :)


Was Salam.

And we shias follow the Sunnah of Rasool Allah (i.e. Islamic Sharia) which has been transmitted to us by his Ahle Bait (i.e. Aima of Ahle Bait didn't bring any thing new at their own, while Sharia is only from Allah).


Dil key behlaney ko Ghaalib ye khayal achha hai

Show me the proof where did Allah and Rasool(S A W) cursed Ummulmomineen Ayesha (ra) ?
How come u curse "Harm e Nabi" pbuh and still claim to love him.
How come u think your wife or woman can be better than Ummahaatulmomineen(Rizwanullah um Ajmaeen).


Bismillah

Salam Alaikum

Br/sis? Jat,

The topic of Umahat ul Momineen is entirely different from present thread of "Salafies".

And also I have avoided such topics personally for the sake of our Ahle Sunnah brethern. But if really our brothers are ready to hear the truth (without loosing their temper) then it's a good question and I can show you where Umhaatul Momineen cursed (better to say ABUSED) each other.

Question is didn't they know that abusing a Sahabia will make them Kafira and out of pale of Islam...... ?

So br/sis Jat, if you really want to continue then please open up a saparate thread.

Was Salam.

#19 zainabia

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Posted 06 May 2004 - 09:09 AM



Following the Sunnah of the 4 Rightly Guided khalifa


Salafies claim that the 4 rightly guided Caliphs were entitled to make their own Sunnah and acts of worship. And it is not bidah to act upon their Sunnah in addition to the Sunnah of Rasool Allah [saww].

Sheikh Uthmayeen states:

Adhere to my Sunnah and the Sunnah of the rightly guided successors after me. Hold on to it and cling on to it stubbornly...(Majmoo' Fataawa Ibn 'Uthaymeen, vol. 2, p. 291)



Reply 1: Making Shari'ah is only the work of Allah swt


It is only Allah, who makes the Shari'at. Even Rasool Allah [saww] did not get the right to add something in Shar'ia at his own. His [saww] actions became the part of Sharia only due to the reason, while they were nothing else than revelation of Allah.

By the Star when it setteth,
Your comrade erreth not, nor is deceived;
Nor doth he speak of (his own) desire.
It is naught save an inspiration that is inspired,
Al-Qur'an Surah 53, Ayah 1-4 (Translation by Pickthal)

Interesting, contrary to Qur'an, Salafies claim that Rasool Allah [saww] also did some actions according to his [saww] own opinion. And all those actions of Rasool Allah [saww] don't come under the category of Sunnah of Rasool Allah [saww] because they were without the revelations of Allah.

So, do the Salafies believe that Jabrail (as) brought revelation of Allah to these rightly guided caliphs that we should take their Sunnah as part of Islamic Sharia?

If not, then how can their Bidahs become "Sharia of Islam"?


Reply 2: the above mentioned Hadith of "Rightly Guided Caliphs" is unreliable and not Sahih


Sayyid Hamid Husayn was a prominent Shia scholar from India. He refuted the "Tuhfa Ithna Ashari" from Shah Abdul Aziz in his famous work "Abqatul Anwar", which consists of 36 volumes.

Shah Abdul Aziz also claimed that above mentioned hadith about 4 caliphs is "Sahih". Syed Hamid Husayn gave a detailed answer to this and showed with proofs that this hadith is not sahih. Let me quote from his work on this hadith.

Firstly, he says that tradition has been narrated solely by Sunnis.

Secondly, he points out that this tradition has been avoided by Muslim and al-Bukhari, whose works are widely accepted by the Ahl al-Sunnah as the most authentic works on hadith.

Thirdly, the claim that the above-mentioned narration is sahih is not true, because the veracity of its transmitters has been considered as questionable by Sunni authorities.

The tradition has been recorded by Abu Dawud, al-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah in their works.

As to al-'Irbad ibn Sariyah, the sole narrator from whom the tradition is narrated, he is not reliable because of the untenable statement he makes in his own praise ("I am one-fourth of Islam").

As to Hajar ibn Hajar al-Kila'i, aside from belonging to Hims, a Syrian town once notorious for its people's enmity of `Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã, is of unknown standing as mentioned by Ibn Hajar in Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, iii,118 .

Khalid ibn Ma`dan ibn Abi Karib al-Kitabi, aside from belonging to Hims, was the chief of police of Yazid ibn Mu`awiyah, the most infamous ruler in the history of Islam.

Thawr ibn Yazid, too, belonged to Hims as mentioned by al_Dhahabi (Mizan al_'i`tidal, i,374 ). As mentioned by Ibn Hajar (op. cit., ii,34 ) he hated `Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã, who had killed his father in a battle. `Abd Allah ibn Mubarak refrained from narrating from him and considered him a heretic (fasid al_madhhab).

The next transmitter, al-Walid ibn Muslim, has been accused of forgery by Abu Mushar, as mentioned by al-Dhahabi in Mizan al-'i`tidal, IV,347 . These were some of Abu Dawud's authorities.

The author then goes on to show that the transmitters of the narration recorded by al-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah, namely Abu `Asim, Hasan ibn `Ali al-Khallal, Buhayr ibn Sa`id, Baqiyyah ibn al-Walid, Yahya ibn Abi al-Muta`, `Abd Allah ibn `Ala', Mu`awiyah ibn Salih, Isma`il ibn Bishr ibn Mansur, and `Abd al-Malik ibn al-Sabbah, are all weak (da`if) transmitters, as mentioned by Sunni authorities on rijal in their works.

Moreover, al-Hafiz ibn al-Qattan has expressly rejected the authenticity of this sole narration of `Abd al-Rahman al-Salami, as mentioned by Ibn Hajar in Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, VI,238



Reply 3: Did Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman knew that they were 'those' rightly guided Caliphs?



Rasool Allah [saww] never told that there would be those 4 alleged Rightly Guided Caliphs (Khulfa-e-Rashidoon) after him and it would be obligatory on Muslims to act upon their Sunnah.

Neither did these alleged 4 caliphs know that had been bestowed the titles "Khulfa-e-Rashidoon, nor did the other Sahaba deem their Sunnah as part of "Islamic Sharia".

But contrary to it, Ahle-Bait and Sahaba criticized their wrong actions (/Bidahs). For example, a woman criticized Umar for innovating in Law of Dower and going against Qur'an. Ali criticized Uthman for innovations in "Distribution of Zakat" and "Hajj Tamattu" and many (please see above).


Did Abu Bakr ever claim that his Sunnah is "Part of Sharia" during his reign?


When Abu Bakr and Umar claimed for "Caliphate" at Saqifa, there was a strong opposition showed to it by some other Sahaba Karam (the situation even reached to cursing each other).

Can Salafies show us if Abu Bakr claimed at that he was that promised "Rashid Khalifa" that Rasool Allah (saww) promised. And it was obligatory to act upon his "Sunnah"?

If this hadith is really true, why none of the Sahaba defended this "Right" of Abu Bakr by referring this alleged hadith to others?

Can Salafies show us if Abu Bakr ever referred to this hadith during "Whole of his life"?


Did Umar ever claim that his Sunnah is "Part of Sharia" during his reign?


Never. Contrary to this, sahaba rejected to follow the Sunnah of Umar at several occasions. Shibli Numani wrote in his book "Al-Farooq":

After the victory of Iraq, many Sahaba married the Christian women. Hadhrat Umar wrote to Hudaifa al-Yeman that I don't like that they marry with Christian women.

He wrote in answer: "Is this HUKM (order) is your "Personal Opinion" or a SHARI HUKM?" Hadhrat Umar replied that it was his "Personal Opinion". Hudaifa replied, "It is not obligatory upon us to follow your personal opinion." Therefore, a lot of Sahaba married with Christian women."
Al-Farooq, page 330, Maktababa Rahmania, Lahore, Pakistan

Note:
This book of Shibli Numani is full of such type of incidents where Sahaba refused to take Sunnah of Umar as "Part of Islamic Sharia"


Did Uthman ever claim that his Sunnah is "Part of the Sharia"?


There are nearly 50+ traditions in SUNNI hadith/history literature, which shows that other Sahaba severely criticized Uthman at his Sunnah (/Bidahs) of giving privileges to his relatives from the money of Bait-ul-Mal.

Please see our article:
Who really killed 'Uthman?

But as compared to these 50+ traditions, there is not even a SINGLE tradition in Sunni hadith/history books in which Uthman would have used the above mention hadith of "Rightly guided Caliph's Sunnah" in his defence.

It was only the later day people, who started saying that Only these 4 Caliphs were the rightly guided caliphs i.e. Khulfa-e-Rashidoon (another innovation???).



Reply 6: Maulla Ali [as] refused to follow the Sunnah (/Bidahs) of the other Rashid Khalifas


In the book "Khilafah" by Hizb at-Tahrir we read the following:

"... As for the appointment of the six people by 'Umar, it was a nomination to them by him upon the request of the Muslims. Then 'Abdul Rahman ibn 'Auf consulted the Muslims about whom they wanted from the six people. The majority wanted 'Ali if he adhered to the practices of Abu Bakr and 'Umar, otherwise they wanted 'Uthman. When 'Ali rejected to adhere to the practices of Abu Bakr and 'Umar, 'Abdul Rahman ibn 'Auf gave the pledge to 'Uthman and the people gave their pledge ……."

So when Imam Ali (as) could not accept to follow the Sunnah / (Bidah) of other Rashid Caliphs, then how can we take their Sunnah as part of Islamic Sharia?

Reply 7: Maula 'Ali (as) deemed the Shaykhayn to be sinners, dishonest, treacherous, liars[/size][/b]


What better 'proof' can we find of Imam 'Ali's views of three alleged rightly guided khalifas. We read in Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4349 that Umar acknowledged the following to Imam 'Ali (as):

When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) passed away, Abu Bakr said:" I am the successor of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)." Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah). (Referring to Hadhrat 'Abbas), he said: You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to 'Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest.

How exactly could the first two khalifas be rightly guided when Imam 'Ali (as) assessed them as liars, sinful, treacherous and dishonest?

.....................

Please read the whole chapter at www.answering-ansar.org and inshaAllah you will enjoy it.

Was Salam.



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