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Why do shia beat themselves on ashura?

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y do shia beat themselves on ashura????????????? :cry:

coz its haram to damage your own body.

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Alm, read the thread on Matam. We have cited sources from Qur'an, hadith and universally accepted Islamic history. Brief summary: Sarah (as) struck her face when she was told she would become a mother at such an advanced age (Qur'an is the source) she was not warned against this show of emotion. Aisha after the death of the Prophet pbuh&hp "Joined the other wives of the Prophet pbuh&hp" in striking their chests in mourning (sahih hadith is the source again not mentioned in a bad way, and no one said the wives were wrong in doing this action). Owais Al-Qarni (ra) removed ALL his teeth after learning the Prophet pbuh&hp had lost ONE tooth. Not only was Owais (ra) NOT punished for this act when Prophet pbuh&hp learned of this act he was REWARDED by being named as a companion... the ONLY person to be given this honor who NEVER met the prophet pbuh&hp in person! (source of this is UNIVERSALLY accepted historical accounts, both shia and sunni accept this fact)

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ok, hit your chest. but i have seen some shia, who i know who cut themselves with KNIVES!!!!!!!!! can you explain that, or are they just odd

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oh yeah, It is haram to damage your own body, surely you shoul know that.

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if you're ONLY talking matam no one can honestly say it harms. Making skin red is not harm. Second, in the case of Owais Al Qarni (ra) would you say knocking teeth out is not harmful or bloody? and yet he (ra) was not punished but REWARDED by the Prophet pbuh&hp... so where is your argument? If something is done for the right reason, as love for Prophet pbuh&hp and/or his Ahlul Bayt (as) then leave it for Allah (SWT) to judge, and worry about your own self. It isn't like the shias are hitting you.

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Alm, read the thread on Matam. We have cited sources from Qur'an, hadith and universally accepted Islamic history. Brief summary: Sarah (as) struck her face when she was told she would become a mother at such an advanced age (Qur'an is the source) she was not warned against this show of emotion.  Aisha after the death of the Prophet pbuh&hp "Joined the other wives of the Prophet pbuh&hp" in striking their chests in mourning (sahih hadith is the source again not mentioned in a bad way, and no one said the wives were wrong in doing this action). Owais Al-Qarni (ra) removed ALL his teeth after learning the Prophet pbuh&hp had lost ONE tooth. Not only was Owais (ra) NOT punished for this act when Prophet pbuh&hp learned of this act he was REWARDED by being named as a companion... the ONLY person to be given this honor who NEVER met the prophet pbuh&hp in person!  (source of this is UNIVERSALLY accepted historical accounts, both shia and sunni accept this fact)

First of all someone slapping themselves in the moment of hearing something profound is not the same as cutting the foreheads of little boys, beating yourselves until you are covered in blood, bruising yourself in anyway, or WALKING ON HOT COALS as some mubtadi'in do.

As well, this is a lie against Uways Al-Qarni (ra), who only knew Muhammad (sal) through the realm of Hurqaliyah and whom none of the Sahabah met in `alam ad-Dunya until AFTER Muhammad (sal) had died.

Moreover, Uways (ra) said himself that he wanted to pull out the SAME tooth as the one that Muhammad (sal) lost, but that he didn't know which one. The Sahabah themselves INCLUDING `ALI (as) DID NOT do this. Wa Uways al-Qarni (ra) Ma'sum? No! But `Ali (as) who DID NOT DO THIS was and is.

What was the Sunnah of the Ahl'ul-Bayt (as)? Did they beat themselves to mark Ashura? If not then this is cultural baggage and surrounding societies' garbage. It is bida'a and has no place in the `aqida of TRUE SHI'A.

Edited by Naziri

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Naziri, no one is talking about those things you mentioned. Alm didn't mention anything causing loss of blood, but "beating" which would be logically referring to matam. As for Owais al Qarni (ra) you are denying something that SHIAS AND SUNNIS agree on. If ye be truthful bring your proof. Otherwise you simply saying something does not make it fact.

There were many things that are halal but were not necessarily practiced by the Prophet pbuh&hp himself, or even his Ahlul Bayt (as) (divorce springs foremost to mind, even though Sunnis have hadith that refer to Prophet pbuh&hp divorcing certain wives before consummation of the marriage). that does not make them haram.

And you still do not address WHY Owais (ra) would be called a companion, if he never met Prophet pbuh&hp, even IF for the sake of argument, it was after the death of the Prophet pbuh&hp

Edited by Aliya

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Naziri, no one is talking about those things you mentioned. Alm didn't mention anything causing loss of blood, but "beating" which would be logically referring to matam. As for Owais al Qarni  you are denying something that SHIAS AND SUNNIS agree on.

Actually ALM DID ask about cutting. Re-read ALL of his posts. As well, we ALL know that MOST Shi'a do not just LIGHTLY hit their chests. As well, if you are justifying women hitting breasts then you ARE talking about damaging the body as this can very easily cause interal damage to the mammary glands.

If ye be truthful bring your proof. Otherwise you simply saying something does not make it fact.

It's interesting that you asked ME for the Dalil of this. i DO have the dalil for this statement; in fact the entire conversation between the Sahabah when they came to bring Uways the shirt of the Muhammad (sal). However, i want to see YOUR dalil that says OTHERWISE. YOU are the one claiming something about the man that i have never read. So the onus of proof is on YOU.

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The most explicit proof of self inflicted injury comes Owais Qarni, the great Muslim Sahaba, praised by both Shia as well as Sunni erudites, had an immense love for the Holy Prophet (s.a.w). When the news reached him in Yemen that two teeth of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w) were broken in the battle of Ohad, he extracted all his teeth. When the Holy Prophet (s.a.w) got the news in Medina that Owais had struck down all his teeth, he (s.a.w) exclaimed, "Indeed Owais is our devoted friend."

This event can be found written in 'Tazkeratul Aulia' by Sheikh Fariddun Attar, also 'Ihsanul Uyun' commonly known as 'Seerate Halbia' vol II, page 295.295.

We should point out that breaking one's teeth is a thousand times more painful than the beating of one's chest for a few hours. It is even more extreme than breast beating with chains or knives (Zanjir) because those who have suffered from tooth ache will understand the immense pain that circulates in the mouth and head. Compare the removal of a tooth to the forced removal of a full set of teeth without the benefit of modern day anaesthetic and instruments the pain must have been unbearable. This was clearly an act of great courage

Hadrath Zaynab[sa] was the first person who hit her forehead to a bar inside the carriage she was in, causing considerable bleeding, when the head of al-Hussain (as) was being paraded in Kufa. This is one evidence that the shedding of blood is permissible; whether from the head or from the back etc. The infallible Imam Zayn-el-'Aabidin (as) used to address Lady Zaynab al-Kubra (as) by saying to her "You are al-Hamdu-Lillah an untaught scholar" - "Anti al-Hamdu-Lillah 'Alimah Ghayr Mu'allimah"

Bihaar al-Anwaar; volume 45, page 114,

Jalaa’ al-‘Oyun; volume 2, page 238,

Zaynab al-Kubra; page 112,

Asraar al-Shahadah; page 474,

Al-Muntakhab; volume 2, page 478,

Nusrat-ul-Madhlum; page 18.

Needless to say that ‘Allamah al-Majlisi – compiler of Bihaar al-Anwaar – and Sheikh al-Shari’ah al-Isfahani have confirmed the authenticity of the report.

Source: http://www.angelfire.com/dc/azadar/

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ahsant, brother Naziri .

y do shia beat themselves on ashura?????????????

Not all Shias support Matam. I think it's haram, and it's an innovation.

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y do shia beat themselves on ashura?????????????

Not all Shias support Matam. I think it's haram, and it's an innovation.

:angry:

So when did u become marja3-e-taqleed ???

Matam isnt part of faith, not usool nor furoo3, so how then can it be a bid3a ??

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We must damage our bodies because our Imams told us to.

LoL, how silly. It is haram to damage our bodies. The Imams (as) would never instruct us to do anything that is in contrary to Islam.

What PROOF do you have that the Imams (as) REALLY said so?

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So when did u become marja3-e-taqleed ???

I never claimed to be one, so don't put words into my mouth.

Matam isnt part of faith, not usool nor furoo3, so how then can it be a bid3a ??

Because it has become the CUSTOM of Shias and ONLY Shias. Here you have some Shias claiming it was the SUNNAH of the prophet (saw). Is the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) not part of your deen?

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Q. Why do Shias hit their chests in Muharram?

A. The hitting of the chest in Muharram symbolizes a Muslim's grief towards the martyrdom of Imam Hussain that resulted in a very bloody and tragic war between good and evil. Imam Hussain didn't die a normal death but was part of a massacre in the name of Allah that resulted in the death of 110 innocent children and many of the women that were women. With 72 loyal companions he faced Yazeed's 40,000 army. This isn't a tragedy that just passes and is forgotten this easily. If a person for example lost a father, he or she would hit her chest or head in grief, this is what Shias do over the death of Imam Hussain.

This act also helps to keep Imam Hussain's cause alive in the hearts of Muslims all around the world. If we stopped crying over Imam Hussain, he would disappear like many other big figures in history.

Q. Isn't it haram to beat yourself because of a person? [/size]

A. First of all, Imam Hussain isn't a normal person and is considered higher than others according to the Quran (Innemah yoreed Allah li yoth-hib ankom alrijs ahl albait weh yotehhirekom tatheerah (33:33)) and therefore he is given higher respect.

If you do something that conflicts damage upon yourself, then it is haram. Therefore, if beating yourself in Muharram results in your death or catching a disease then it is haram. However, both these arguments are irrelevant because they cannot possibly occur when a person simply beats his chest.

Edited by queen_punk

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This act also helps to keep Imam Hussain's cause alive in the hearts of Muslims all around the world. If we stopped crying over Imam Hussain, he would disappear like many other big figures in history.

There are other ways of remembering Hussain (ra) than cutting yourself with knives or beating your chest.

Edited by alm

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Prophet Yaqub (as) cried for 40 years over the loss of his son, who wasn't even dead. the prophet went blind from his crying because of crying this much for this long. He was a prophet, and certainly you're not going to say he sinned, or made a "mistake" for over 40 years are you? I have cited sources that show the permissability of striking chest, and even causing bleeding. If you choose not to do these things, fine, but to say someone else is wrong for doing them when proof has been given showing allowability... again I will say what is quickly becoming the norm for me against you guys: "BRING YOUR PROOF, IF YOU BE TRUTHFUL" That is the guidance found in Qur'an, and therefore it's guidance for me.. now the question is, is it guidance for you?

Edited by Aliya

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There are other ways of remembering Hussain (ra) than cutting yourself with knives or beating your chest.

No there isnt- only this way shows the grief and torment Hazrat Imame Hussain AS and his fmaily went through to save Islam-

And people like you- munafiqs and nasibis, the enemies of Ahle Bait, come here preaching your umer-like taravi bidah telling us to 'forget' remembering Imame Hussain AS.

How ridiculous!

Because you nasibis dont love him, how then can you even begin to comprehend what we Shias feel for him?

You cant, because you're munafiqs and nasibis and rejectors of Quran and Ahle Bait= the 2 very things the Holy Prophet (pbuh) left for his ummah- and the non shias run off and form their own nasibi ummah under baker and co- the usurpers.

LA.

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No there isnt- only this way shows the grief and torment Hazrat Imame Hussain AS and his fmaily went through to save Islam

so cutting yourself with knives is the only way 2 remember Hussain (ra) !!!

And sis Aliya i am not refering to crying :cry: !!! but beating yourself, and cutting yourself with knives!!! which is haram :shaytan:

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Alm, read the post I posted about Owais Al Qarni (ra) It addresses that issue. and shows it is not haram if done for the right reason.

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No there isnt- only this way shows the grief and torment Hazrat Imame Hussain AS and his fmaily went through to save Islam

so cutting yourself with knives is the only way 2 remember Hussain (ra) !!!

And sis Aliya i am not refering to crying :cry: !!! but beating yourself, and cutting yourself with knives!!! which is haram :shaytan:

Like I said, because you nasibis dont love him, how then can you even begin to comprehend what we Shias feel for him?

And its not haram-

Prove it is haram using Quran- where is it written? At the back somewhere? :squeez:

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Prove it is haram using Quran- where is it written? At the back somewhere? 

Are you accusing the sunnis of changing the quraan. If so you are more idiotic than i first thought!!!!!!!!!!! :squeez: :!!!:

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Prove it is haram using Quran- where is it written? At the back somewhere? 

Are you accusing the sunnis of changing the quraan. If so you are more idiotic than i first thought!!!!!!!!!!! :squeez: :!!!:

Why cant you just read what I wrote instead of being presumptuous?

I asked prove using the Quran that matam is haram, as you so believe.

Show me where it says that-

Thats all I asked-

Obviously you're incapable of answering even a simple question, God knows how you'd react to a harder one. :squeez:

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alm we're not claiming it. we leave that to your beloved sahaba that have narrated hadith about "forgotten" ayats, lost suras, and goat-eaten pages of Qur'an. We, on the other hand, believe Qur'an to be protected by Allah (SWT) even when it's in the hands of those who innovated and narrated hadith about the Qur'an missing suras, ayats, etc. astaghfirullah

Edited by Aliya

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Because it has become the CUSTOM of Shias and ONLY Shias.

That is totally untrue.

In the Indian subcontinent, don't know about know, but 30 years ago Sunnis, Shias and even Hindus did Mataam-e-Husayn. In fact, even to this day, you will find Hindu writers of qaseeda, manqabat and nauha/latmiyah

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That is totally untrue.

In the Indian subcontinent, don't know about know, but 30 years ago Sunnis, Shias and even Hindus did Mataam-e-Husayn. In fact, even to this day, you will find Hindu writers of qaseeda, manqabat and nauha/latmiyah

Then I guess innovation applies to them as well.

Why would HINDUS matter to me? We are discussing the justifications of matam and its relevancies to OUR religion.

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I give up. Some people never learn. -_-

Edited by Youth Of Ali

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(salam) my dear brothers and sisters,,,1st of all I would like to say that in my disscusion I'm not either with the Sunni claim or the Shiite claim,,,I'm simply addressing my own opinion, according to the sources and information I have and my logic. The issue of Shias beating and cutting themselves is an important one, not just in its validity as a religous act or ritual,,,but also in the image the Shias present during the Muharram ceremonies, which leads other non-Muslims who know little about Islam to build an idea of a demonic and barbaric religon based on what they see on the media concerning the Ashura ceremonies.

To begin with I would like to say that I totally know the amount of devotion and love the Shias have for Imam Hussein and Ahlylbayt (as) ,,,I love them maybe as much, and I could understand the symbolism and significance of chest beating as a sign of mourning and grieve,,,I'm not aganist that at all,,,I agree with sister Aliya's arguement about Jacob's mourn for his son Joseph and the tears he shed for 40 years. Our prophet pbuh cried for Hussein decades before his martyrdom,,,and the holy Imams (as) held majalis taziah during Muharram. To sum my point of view up,,,I'm saying that cheast beating at least to me is not self mutilation nor damaging ones own body,,,I see it more as a symbol of grieve and devotion to Hussein and therefore I have nothing aganist it.

On the other hand we can see many other aspects of the ceremony which are simply shocking. I just can't stand the sight of people flagellating themselves or cutting their heads with swords and daggers,,,I can understand the motive, but that doesn't justify the act. Sometimes people die during the ceremonies, and I'm not making this up,,,last year 7 people died during the Ashura ceremonies in Pakistan while beating themselves. So PLLLLLZ don't tell me that some red color on a white shirt doesn't nessecarily mean that the guy was hurt,,,this is FALSE argument. Ashura ceremonies throughout history casued some incidents of permenant damage and mortality among those who participated in them. Do you people think that this is religous or civilised by any means??

Some of you like Alia might present me with the incident of the sahabi Owais and how he removed his teeth after knowing of the two teeth lost by the Prophet pbuh after the battle of Uhud. OK, the sahabi surly bled in doing that, but this is NO REASON to justify what the shias do for a couple of reasons.

First, the sahabi was in Yemen and NOT with the prophet, in other words he might have been unaware of the mistake of his action, and he also lacked guidance. Therefore when the Prophet pbuh praised him, he did so in return for his devotion for the righteous cause, NOT for the blood spilled,,,BIG DIFFERENCE, and he's NOT A MASSOM after all. Today Shias all over the world know about the Islamic principles and halal from haram, and I don't think they lack the guidance and maraji3, which was the case with Owais,,,so how could you people fall for the same mistake??

Second, could you please answer me in this, do you really think the Prophet pbuh would have approved what Owais did if he had seen him doing that,,,don't you think that he would have tried to stop him if he had seen him?? I leave that to you to answer

Thirdly, removing ones teeth doesn't lead to mortality, but the ceremonies of Ashura caused mortality incidents (I don't mean the suicidal attacks),,,no reason would ever justify self mutilation and suicide in the name of devotion as long you have the book and the Sunnah guidance.

In the end I would like to say that my claim isn't because I'm anti-shia or sunni or nasibi, some revered Shiite scholars as Syed Muhssen al amin who was marji3 al a3la in syria and denounced the bloody aspects of Ashura ceremony and issued a FATWA aganist it. Also the famous Shiite intellectual Mousa al Moussawi in his book Al shia wa al tas7e7. I don't know why after all that some [Edited Out]tes still cling to the blood spilling??

May God guide us all (salam)

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