Jump to content


- - - - -


- - - - -

Why do shia beat themselves on ashura?


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
114 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_alm_*

Guest_alm_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 March 2004 - 11:33 AM

y do shia beat themselves on ashura????????????? :cry:

coz its haram to damage your own body.

#2 Aliya

Aliya

    shiachat resident

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,793 posts
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Discussing and learning about Islam and other religions; learning about other cultures; discussing current affairs. Please don't pm me asking for my messenger, etc. I don't chat with ppl I don't know.

Posted 08 March 2004 - 11:41 AM

Alm, read the thread on Matam. We have cited sources from Qur'an, hadith and universally accepted Islamic history. Brief summary: Sarah (as) struck her face when she was told she would become a mother at such an advanced age (Qur'an is the source) she was not warned against this show of emotion. Aisha after the death of the Prophet pbuh&hp "Joined the other wives of the Prophet pbuh&hp" in striking their chests in mourning (sahih hadith is the source again not mentioned in a bad way, and no one said the wives were wrong in doing this action). Owais Al-Qarni (ra) removed ALL his teeth after learning the Prophet pbuh&hp had lost ONE tooth. Not only was Owais (ra) NOT punished for this act when Prophet pbuh&hp learned of this act he was REWARDED by being named as a companion... the ONLY person to be given this honor who NEVER met the prophet pbuh&hp in person! (source of this is UNIVERSALLY accepted historical accounts, both shia and sunni accept this fact)

#3 Guest_alm_*

Guest_alm_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 March 2004 - 11:58 AM

ok, hit your chest. but i have seen some shia, who i know who cut themselves with KNIVES!!!!!!!!! can you explain that, or are they just odd

#4 Guest_alm_*

Guest_alm_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 March 2004 - 11:58 AM

oh yeah, It is haram to damage your own body, surely you shoul know that.

#5 Aliya

Aliya

    shiachat resident

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,793 posts
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Discussing and learning about Islam and other religions; learning about other cultures; discussing current affairs. Please don't pm me asking for my messenger, etc. I don't chat with ppl I don't know.

Posted 08 March 2004 - 12:11 PM

if you're ONLY talking matam no one can honestly say it harms. Making skin red is not harm. Second, in the case of Owais Al Qarni (ra) would you say knocking teeth out is not harmful or bloody? and yet he (ra) was not punished but REWARDED by the Prophet pbuh&hp... so where is your argument? If something is done for the right reason, as love for Prophet pbuh&hp and/or his Ahlul Bayt (as) then leave it for Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì to judge, and worry about your own self. It isn't like the shias are hitting you.

#6 Naziri

Naziri

    www.fitriyyah.org

  • Banned
  • 1,823 posts
  • Location:A thought within the Mind...

Posted 08 March 2004 - 01:20 PM

Alm, read the thread on Matam. We have cited sources from Qur'an, hadith and universally accepted Islamic history. Brief summary: Sarah (as) struck her face when she was told she would become a mother at such an advanced age (Qur'an is the source) she was not warned against this show of emotion.  Aisha after the death of the Prophet pbuh&hp "Joined the other wives of the Prophet pbuh&hp" in striking their chests in mourning (sahih hadith is the source again not mentioned in a bad way, and no one said the wives were wrong in doing this action). Owais Al-Qarni (ra) removed ALL his teeth after learning the Prophet pbuh&hp had lost ONE tooth. Not only was Owais (ra) NOT punished for this act when Prophet pbuh&hp learned of this act he was REWARDED by being named as a companion... the ONLY person to be given this honor who NEVER met the prophet pbuh&hp in person!  (source of this is UNIVERSALLY accepted historical accounts, both shia and sunni accept this fact)

First of all someone slapping themselves in the moment of hearing something profound is not the same as cutting the foreheads of little boys, beating yourselves until you are covered in blood, bruising yourself in anyway, or WALKING ON HOT COALS as some mubtadi'in do.

As well, this is a lie against Uways Al-Qarni (ra), who only knew Muhammad (sal) through the realm of Hurqaliyah and whom none of the Sahabah met in `alam ad-Dunya until AFTER Muhammad (sal) had died.

Moreover, Uways (ra) said himself that he wanted to pull out the SAME tooth as the one that Muhammad (sal) lost, but that he didn't know which one. The Sahabah themselves INCLUDING `ALI (as) DID NOT do this. Wa Uways al-Qarni (ra) Ma'sum? No! But `Ali (as) who DID NOT DO THIS was and is.

What was the Sunnah of the Ahl'ul-Bayt (as)? Did they beat themselves to mark Ashura? If not then this is cultural baggage and surrounding societies' garbage. It is bida'a and has no place in the `aqida of TRUE SHI'A.

Edited by Naziri, 08 March 2004 - 01:21 PM.


#7 Aliya

Aliya

    shiachat resident

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,793 posts
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Discussing and learning about Islam and other religions; learning about other cultures; discussing current affairs. Please don't pm me asking for my messenger, etc. I don't chat with ppl I don't know.

Posted 08 March 2004 - 01:24 PM

Naziri, no one is talking about those things you mentioned. Alm didn't mention anything causing loss of blood, but "beating" which would be logically referring to matam. As for Owais al Qarni (ra) you are denying something that SHIAS AND SUNNIS agree on. If ye be truthful bring your proof. Otherwise you simply saying something does not make it fact.

There were many things that are halal but were not necessarily practiced by the Prophet pbuh&hp himself, or even his Ahlul Bayt (as) (divorce springs foremost to mind, even though Sunnis have hadith that refer to Prophet pbuh&hp divorcing certain wives before consummation of the marriage). that does not make them haram.

And you still do not address WHY Owais (ra) would be called a companion, if he never met Prophet pbuh&hp, even IF for the sake of argument, it was after the death of the Prophet pbuh&hp

Edited by Aliya, 08 March 2004 - 01:28 PM.


#8 Naziri

Naziri

    www.fitriyyah.org

  • Banned
  • 1,823 posts
  • Location:A thought within the Mind...

Posted 08 March 2004 - 01:34 PM

Naziri, no one is talking about those things you mentioned. Alm didn't mention anything causing loss of blood, but "beating" which would be logically referring to matam. As for Owais al Qarni  you are denying something that SHIAS AND SUNNIS agree on.


Actually ALM DID ask about cutting. Re-read ALL of his posts. As well, we ALL know that MOST Shi'a do not just LIGHTLY hit their chests. As well, if you are justifying women hitting breasts then you ARE talking about damaging the body as this can very easily cause interal damage to the mammary glands.

If ye be truthful bring your proof. Otherwise you simply saying something does not make it fact.


It's interesting that you asked ME for the Dalil of this. i DO have the dalil for this statement; in fact the entire conversation between the Sahabah when they came to bring Uways the shirt of the Muhammad (sal). However, i want to see YOUR dalil that says OTHERWISE. YOU are the one claiming something about the man that i have never read. So the onus of proof is on YOU.

#9 Aliya

Aliya

    shiachat resident

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,793 posts
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Discussing and learning about Islam and other religions; learning about other cultures; discussing current affairs. Please don't pm me asking for my messenger, etc. I don't chat with ppl I don't know.

Posted 08 March 2004 - 01:43 PM

The most explicit proof of self inflicted injury comes Owais Qarni, the great Muslim Sahaba, praised by both Shia as well as Sunni erudites, had an immense love for the Holy Prophet (s.a.w). When the news reached him in Yemen that two teeth of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w) were broken in the battle of Ohad, he extracted all his teeth. When the Holy Prophet (s.a.w) got the news in Medina that Owais had struck down all his teeth, he (s.a.w) exclaimed, "Indeed Owais is our devoted friend."

This event can be found written in 'Tazkeratul Aulia' by Sheikh Fariddun Attar, also 'Ihsanul Uyun' commonly known as 'Seerate Halbia' vol II, page 295.295.

We should point out that breaking one's teeth is a thousand times more painful than the beating of one's chest for a few hours. It is even more extreme than breast beating with chains or knives (Zanjir) because those who have suffered from tooth ache will understand the immense pain that circulates in the mouth and head. Compare the removal of a tooth to the forced removal of a full set of teeth without the benefit of modern day anaesthetic and instruments the pain must have been unbearable. This was clearly an act of great courage

Hadrath Zaynab[sa] was the first person who hit her forehead to a bar inside the carriage she was in, causing considerable bleeding, when the head of al-Hussain (as) was being paraded in Kufa. This is one evidence that the shedding of blood is permissible; whether from the head or from the back etc. The infallible Imam Zayn-el-'Aabidin (as) used to address Lady Zaynab al-Kubra (as) by saying to her "You are al-Hamdu-Lillah an untaught scholar" - "Anti al-Hamdu-Lillah 'Alimah Ghayr Mu'allimah"

Bihaar al-Anwaar; volume 45, page 114,

Jalaa’ al-‘Oyun; volume 2, page 238,
Zaynab al-Kubra; page 112,
Asraar al-Shahadah; page 474,
Al-Muntakhab; volume 2, page 478,
Nusrat-ul-Madhlum; page 18.

Needless to say that ‘Allamah al-Majlisi – compiler of Bihaar al-Anwaar – and Sheikh al-Shari’ah al-Isfahani have confirmed the authenticity of the report.



Source: http://www.angelfire.com/dc/azadar/

#10 LightUponLight

LightUponLight

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,640 posts

Posted 08 March 2004 - 06:57 PM

ahsant, brother Naziri .

y do shia beat themselves on ashura?????????????


Not all Shias support Matam. I think it's haram, and it's an innovation.

#11 Abdulhujjah

Abdulhujjah

    íÇ ÇÈÇ ÕÇáÍ ãÏÏí

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,436 posts
  • Location:ARNCLIFFE
  • Interests:Staying real, I hate fake people

Posted 09 March 2004 - 07:27 AM

y do shia beat themselves on ashura?????????????


Not all Shias support Matam. I think it's haram, and it's an innovation.

:angry:

So when did u become marja3-e-taqleed ???

Matam isnt part of faith, not usool nor furoo3, so how then can it be a bid3a ??

#12 AyatollahBob

AyatollahBob
  • Banned
  • 31 posts

Posted 09 March 2004 - 11:07 AM

coz its haram to damage your own body.

We must damage our bodies because our Imams told us to.

#13 LightUponLight

LightUponLight

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,640 posts

Posted 09 March 2004 - 11:51 AM

We must damage our bodies because our Imams told us to.


LoL, how silly. It is haram to damage our bodies. The Imams (as) would never instruct us to do anything that is in contrary to Islam.

What PROOF do you have that the Imams (as) REALLY said so?

#14 LightUponLight

LightUponLight

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,640 posts

Posted 09 March 2004 - 11:53 AM

So when did u become marja3-e-taqleed ???


I never claimed to be one, so don't put words into my mouth.

Matam isnt part of faith, not usool nor furoo3, so how then can it be a bid3a ??


Because it has become the CUSTOM of Shias and ONLY Shias. Here you have some Shias claiming it was the SUNNAH of the prophet (saw). Is the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) not part of your deen?

#15 guest123

guest123

    hopla hopla hopla .there goes my umbrella

  • Unregistered
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,878 posts
  • Location:heaven
  • Interests:dr tahir ul qadri rocks !

    WHO SAYS SHIA - SUNNIS CANT BE FRIENDS?

    ONE GOD , ONE RELIGION , ONE UMMAH

    SHIA-SUNNI UNITY !

Posted 09 March 2004 - 12:11 PM

Q. Why do Shias hit their chests in Muharram?

A. The hitting of the chest in Muharram symbolizes a Muslim's grief towards the martyrdom of Imam Hussain that resulted in a very bloody and tragic war between good and evil. Imam Hussain didn't die a normal death but was part of a massacre in the name of Allah that resulted in the death of 110 innocent children and many of the women that were women. With 72 loyal companions he faced Yazeed's 40,000 army. This isn't a tragedy that just passes and is forgotten this easily. If a person for example lost a father, he or she would hit her chest or head in grief, this is what Shias do over the death of Imam Hussain.
This act also helps to keep Imam Hussain's cause alive in the hearts of Muslims all around the world. If we stopped crying over Imam Hussain, he would disappear like many other big figures in history
.


[SIZE=7]Q. Isn't it haram to beat yourself because of a person? [/SIZE]

A. First of all, Imam Hussain isn't a normal person and is considered higher than others according to the Quran (Innemah yoreed Allah li yoth-hib ankom alrijs ahl albait weh yotehhirekom tatheerah (33:33)) and therefore he is given higher respect.
If you do something that conflicts damage upon yourself, then it is haram. Therefore, if beating yourself in Muharram results in your death or catching a disease then it is haram. However, both these arguments are irrelevant because they cannot possibly occur when a person simply beats his chest.

Edited by queen_punk, 09 March 2004 - 12:12 PM.


#16 Guest_alm_*

Guest_alm_*
  • Guests

Posted 09 March 2004 - 12:50 PM

This act also helps to keep Imam Hussain's cause alive in the hearts of Muslims all around the world. If we stopped crying over Imam Hussain, he would disappear like many other big figures in history.


There are other ways of remembering Hussain (ra) than cutting yourself with knives or beating your chest.

Edited by alm, 09 March 2004 - 01:00 PM.


#17 Aliya

Aliya

    shiachat resident

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,793 posts
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Discussing and learning about Islam and other religions; learning about other cultures; discussing current affairs. Please don't pm me asking for my messenger, etc. I don't chat with ppl I don't know.

Posted 09 March 2004 - 12:54 PM

Prophet Yaqub (as) cried for 40 years over the loss of his son, who wasn't even dead. the prophet went blind from his crying because of crying this much for this long. He was a prophet, and certainly you're not going to say he sinned, or made a "mistake" for over 40 years are you? I have cited sources that show the permissability of striking chest, and even causing bleeding. If you choose not to do these things, fine, but to say someone else is wrong for doing them when proof has been given showing allowability... again I will say what is quickly becoming the norm for me against you guys: "BRING YOUR PROOF, IF YOU BE TRUTHFUL" That is the guidance found in Qur'an, and therefore it's guidance for me.. now the question is, is it guidance for you?

Edited by Aliya, 09 March 2004 - 12:55 PM.


#18 poiuyt

poiuyt

    Desire Is Irrelevant. I Am A Machine.

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,933 posts
  • Location:The Future.
  • Interests:Yes, many of them.

Posted 09 March 2004 - 12:55 PM

There are other ways of remembering Hussain (ra) than cutting yourself with knives or beating your chest.

No there isnt- only this way shows the grief and torment Hazrat Imame Hussain AS and his fmaily went through to save Islam-

And people like you- munafiqs and nasibis, the enemies of Ahle Bait, come here preaching your umer-like taravi bidah telling us to 'forget' remembering Imame Hussain AS.

How ridiculous!

Because you nasibis dont love him, how then can you even begin to comprehend what we Shias feel for him?

You cant, because you're munafiqs and nasibis and rejectors of Quran and Ahle Bait= the 2 very things the Holy Prophet (pbuh) left for his ummah- and the non shias run off and form their own nasibi ummah under baker and co- the usurpers.

LA.

#19 Guest_alm_*

Guest_alm_*
  • Guests

Posted 09 March 2004 - 01:06 PM

No there isnt- only this way shows the grief and torment Hazrat Imame Hussain AS and his fmaily went through to save Islam


so cutting yourself with knives is the only way 2 remember Hussain (ra) !!!

And sis Aliya i am not refering to crying :cry: !!! but beating yourself, and cutting yourself with knives!!! which is haram :shaytan:

#20 Aliya

Aliya

    shiachat resident

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,793 posts
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Discussing and learning about Islam and other religions; learning about other cultures; discussing current affairs. Please don't pm me asking for my messenger, etc. I don't chat with ppl I don't know.

Posted 09 March 2004 - 01:08 PM

Alm, read the post I posted about Owais Al Qarni (ra) It addresses that issue. and shows it is not haram if done for the right reason.

#21 poiuyt

poiuyt

    Desire Is Irrelevant. I Am A Machine.

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,933 posts
  • Location:The Future.
  • Interests:Yes, many of them.

Posted 09 March 2004 - 01:09 PM


No there isnt- only this way shows the grief and torment Hazrat Imame Hussain AS and his fmaily went through to save Islam


so cutting yourself with knives is the only way 2 remember Hussain (ra) !!!

And sis Aliya i am not refering to crying :cry: !!! but beating yourself, and cutting yourself with knives!!! which is haram :shaytan:

Like I said, because you nasibis dont love him, how then can you even begin to comprehend what we Shias feel for him?

And its not haram-

Prove it is haram using Quran- where is it written? At the back somewhere? :squeez:

#22 Guest_alm_*

Guest_alm_*
  • Guests

Posted 09 March 2004 - 01:12 PM

Prove it is haram using Quran- where is it written? At the back somewhere? 


Are you accusing the sunnis of changing the quraan. If so you are more idiotic than i first thought!!!!!!!!!!! :squeez: :!!!:

#23 poiuyt

poiuyt

    Desire Is Irrelevant. I Am A Machine.

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,933 posts
  • Location:The Future.
  • Interests:Yes, many of them.

Posted 09 March 2004 - 01:15 PM

Prove it is haram using Quran- where is it written? At the back somewhere? 


Are you accusing the sunnis of changing the quraan. If so you are more idiotic than i first thought!!!!!!!!!!! :squeez: :!!!:

Why cant you just read what I wrote instead of being presumptuous?

I asked prove using the Quran that matam is haram, as you so believe.

Show me where it says that-

Thats all I asked-

Obviously you're incapable of answering even a simple question, God knows how you'd react to a harder one. :squeez:

#24 Aliya

Aliya

    shiachat resident

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,793 posts
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Discussing and learning about Islam and other religions; learning about other cultures; discussing current affairs. Please don't pm me asking for my messenger, etc. I don't chat with ppl I don't know.

Posted 09 March 2004 - 01:23 PM

alm we're not claiming it. we leave that to your beloved sahaba that have narrated hadith about "forgotten" ayats, lost suras, and goat-eaten pages of Qur'an. We, on the other hand, believe Qur'an to be protected by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì even when it's in the hands of those who innovated and narrated hadith about the Qur'an missing suras, ayats, etc. astaghfirullah

Edited by Aliya, 09 March 2004 - 01:25 PM.


#25 Socrates

Socrates

    Islam is Qur'an and Ahlul Bayt (as)

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,771 posts
  • Location:Iraq
  • Religion:Shi'a Imamiyyah
  • Interests:Tawalla and Tabarra

Posted 09 March 2004 - 02:35 PM

Because it has become the CUSTOM of Shias and ONLY Shias.


That is totally untrue.

In the Indian subcontinent, don't know about know, but 30 years ago Sunnis, Shias and even Hindus did Mataam-e-Husayn. In fact, even to this day, you will find Hindu writers of qaseeda, manqabat and nauha/latmiyah




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users