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"Does God Not Exist?" Part 2

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Interesting take. But how do would your define 'presence' ontologically? Can you nail down a clear conception?

I can give you an example. How do you know your self and it's existence? Do you know your self through an argument or by rationalizing its existence? Or do you simply know it by being it and because it is directly present to you ( since your knowledge of it is not separate from its existence)? The knowledge of your self and it's existence are inseparable. So your self is present to you and that's how you know it.

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. I believe there are many proofs of God existence. One of them would be the human conscious However someone can then say we 'evolved'. It is up to us to show consciousness can not come from such a mechanism.

As-Salamun 'Alaykum!

I think that the negation of evolution is intrinsically connected to one's very conception of God (especially the relationship of God with creation).

Even the Imams rationally debated people on the existence of God. God himself did not put his name in the stars. If you study how he has communicated with mankind, it seems he wants us to understand him through the Brains he has given us.

I don't think they did that. They always tried to appeal to people's fitrah. Give me one logical argument they used.. I am curious to know what you have in mind. The same goes with the Quran. The prophet (saws) told his companions to have the faith of the old women when he asked an old woman who was spinning a spindle why she believed in God. She replied simply that just as she is spinning this wheel, the heavens and earth need someone to move it. Notice the prophet did not praise her for giving great rational argument (because it really isn't!). The point of the story is that it wasn't a rational argument more than it was an answer from her heart and fitrah. This is why he told us to have the faith of old women... In other words just be simple and don't make things too complicated with complex reasoning; search inwardly.

The Quran tells us to use our Aql. And Aql is not reasoning per se but that trans-personal aspect of man that is able to witness God as being at once immanent and transcendent; that aspect of man that is able to see the ayat of God in creation by seeing the realities or names of God in phenomena. Aql is not really something the individual possess but more like something that the individual is possessed by. The Quran seems to assume that God is self-evident no?

Take care :)

Ethereal

Edited by eThErEaL

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As-Salamun 'Alaykum!

I don't think they did that. They always tried to appeal to people's fitrah. Give me one logical argument they used.. I am curious to know what you have in mind. The same goes with the Quran. The prophet (saws) told his companions to have the faith of the old women when he asked an old woman who was spinning a spindle why she believed in God. She replied simply that just as she is spinning this wheel, the heavens and earth need someone to move it. Notice the prophet did not praise her for giving great rational argument (because it really isn't!). The point of the story is that it wasn't a rational argument more than it was an answer from her heart and fitrah. This is why he told us to have the faith of old women... In other words just be simple and don't make things too complicated with complex reasoning; search inwardly.

The Quran tells us to use our Aql. And Aql is not reasoning per se but that trans-personal aspect of man that is able to witness God as being at once immanent and transcendent; that aspect of man that is able to see the ayat of God in creation by seeing the realities or names of God in phenomena. Aql is not really something the individual possess but more like something that the individual is possessed by. The Quran seems to assume that God is self-evident no?

Take care :)

Ethereal

(salam)

That is not quite true my dear brother. The Prophet (s) and the Imams (as) presented the arguments suitable to the relevant audience; as you know Prophets (s) are ordered speak according to the capacity of the people. For some, the appeal to the Fitrah - namely a telling reminder - was the easiest and most accessible approach, whereas for others a long discursive approach full of rigid detail and logical reasoning was presented. The ahadith in this regard cannot even be counted! With regards to the women, it is the best example. For her, the capacity of her understanding only reached so far, it was was not necessary to delve any deeper. But for others, it was not always the case.

You are right in essence, that whatever is said is in actuality a reminder to the Fitrah. Something to remind you of what you knew, but the arguments to achieve this varied in methodology; some were beautifully simple as you mentioned above, and some were long and detailed, as if a philosopher was presenting an argument.

Not every man can arrive at the stage of knowing the reality of things as they are. Indeed that is a very noble level, and as such the arguments have to accommodate for all. Some will theoretically know that everything is a sign for God, and others will SEE everything as a manifestation of God. The infallibles (as) explained perfectly both approaches - of course favoring the latter as the surer and more noble path.

Edited by InfiniteAscension

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Belief in a higher underlying intelligence should be natural at the most basic level , that a human should arrive to such a conclusion. We find in all societies across time, there certianly was a belief in a higher neccesary being. After all, seeing nature, your own conciousness, your ability to feel pain, how inanimate proteins can somehow collide together to enable sight - whatever that even is!

The universe itself , the stars , ect.

However, in modern times we have a new atheist movement. Attesting that nature and man are not the product of an intelligent design even though everything seems so designed, but due to random mutation and natural selection. The theory is devised to bring an alternative to God. Charles Darwin formed the theory, and he got almost everything wrong about evolution. The evolutionists "attest" it happened but can not agree on a mechanism, dispute each other whether there is proof in the fossil record, and so on and so forth. It is subjective science that assumes there is no creator, so things must have evolved.

However, they can not get past the cosmological arguments and mans own consciousness These two are powerful forces for anyone to acknowledge a higher presence and being. In-fact, add this to the miracles of the Quran, and a whole myriad of other points and you form a undeniable argument.

So yes, as Imam Jaffer Sadiq told an atheist when he debated with him, (paraphrase) belief in God is understood by the most simple of argument and perception, but for those who want to delve deep and debate and argue there are sufficient explanations.

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Wa Alaykum Salam,

I completely agree with what you are saying. I shouldn't have meant to imply that one will not be able to find a single logical argument among the ahlul baht (as). I should have just said that everything they said was ultimately directed to the person's fitrah.

Thank you.

Ethereal

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Wa Alaykum Salam,

I completely agree with what you are saying. I shouldn't have meant to imply that one will not be able to find a single logical argument among the ahlul baht (as). I should have just said that everything they said was ultimately directed to the person's fitrah.

Thank you.

Ethereal

Indeed, it is all a reorientation to the real knowledge Man always knew.

Imam Ali (as) when describing the role of the Prophets (s) says.."They were sent to ignite what has been buried in the Minds (uqool)"

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As-Salamun Alaykum,

However, in modern times we have a new atheist movement. Attesting that nature and man are not the product of an intelligent design even though everything seems so designed, but due to random mutation and natural selection. The theory is devised to bring an alternative to God. Charles Darwin formed the theory, and he got almost everything wrong about evolution. The evolutionists "attest" it happened but can not agree on a mechanism, dispute each other whether there is proof in the fossil record, and so on and so forth. It is subjective science that assumes there is no creator, so things must have evolved.

I couldn't agree more! :)

However, they can not get past the cosmological arguments and mans own consciousness These two are powerful forces for anyone to acknowledge a higher presence and being. In-fact, add this to the miracles of the Quran, and a whole myriad of other points and you form a undeniable argument.

I wonder about these "miracles" of the Quran. I never bought into them (there are many atheists that also don't buy into them who believe they are weak and refutable). I personally feel that these "miracles" of the Quran detract from the real Miracle of the Quran which is recognized only by iman. I think it is self-defeating when people attempt to subject the Holy Quran to the criteria of today's biggest idol, namely "scientism" and it's worldview. The last thing the Quran would do would be to appeal to the idol(s) of the time. I believe that reason has its place only when guided by the fitrah or the heart. The problem I notice is that arguments, like the Kalaam Cosmological Argument, that tend to be used often these days don't really point to the fact that God is immanent. The implication of such arguments are that God becomes a mere concept, or an abstract idea. This is just my personal feeling when I come across such arguments. And when God is acknowledged "only rationally" it's really hard for it to be "sustained" due to so many existential factors. The problem with the modern world and its "intellectual" and physical environment is that it is suffocating the God given faith / iman out of people. And so if there is any way of helping, with regards the present situation, I think it would be to point ourselves to look inwardly for God because I think this is the only hope in awakening our faith.

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As-Salamun Alaykum,

I couldn't agree more! :)

I wonder about these "miracles" of the Quran. I never bought into them (there are many atheists that also don't buy into them who believe they are weak and refutable). I personally feel that these "miracles" of the Quran detract from the real Miracle of the Quran which is recognized only by iman. I think it is self-defeating when people attempt to subject the Holy Quran to the criteria of today's biggest idol, namely "scientism" and it's worldview. The last thing the Quran would do would be to appeal to the idol(s) of the time. I believe that reason has its place only when guided by the fitrah or the heart. The problem I notice is that arguments, like the Kalaam Cosmological Argument, that tend to be used often these days don't really point to the fact that God is immanent. The implication of such arguments are that God becomes a mere concept, or an abstract idea. This is just my personal feeling when I come across such arguments. And when God is acknowledged "only rationally" it's really hard for it to be "sustained" due to so many existential factors. The problem with the modern world and its "intellectual" and physical environment is that it is suffocating the God given faith / iman out of people. And so if there is any way of helping, with regards the present situation, I think it would be to point ourselves to look inwardly for God because I think this is the only hope in awakening our faith.

Indeed one of the major problems with certain kalaam arguments and Paley's design arguments is the abstraction of God, a mere explanation of a cause in the distant past but with no real tangible link to us now! There are far better arguments presented that prove God's role - and by virtue every thing else's secondary role - in the HERE and NOW.

And as for the quote earlier, it is from Nahjul Balagha - ليثيروا للناس دفائن العقول

Edited by InfiniteAscension

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Indeed one of the major problems with certain kalaam arguments and Paley's design arguments is the abstraction of God, a mere explanation of a cause in the distant past but with no real tangible link to us now! There are far better arguments presented that prove God's role - and by virtue every thing else's secondary role - in the HERE and NOW.

And as for the quote earlier, it is from Nahjul Balagha - ليثيروا للناس دفائن العقول

Evolution is the problem then. If we believe life arose from non-life spontaneously and that humans are the product of random mutation and natural selection, you kick God out immediately.

Like i have said, to prove God exists you need to prove an infinity does not exist. The lady with the spinning wheel was right about the universe. It is incredibly fine tuned! Science has told us the extreme fine tuning it actually has.

However, atheists say "well there are an infinite so it's just an accident".

The problem is, we can all see the philosophical blunder of believing an infinite even exists.

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Evolution is the problem then. If we believe life arose from non-life spontaneously and that humans are the product of random mutation and natural selection, you kick God out immediately.

Like i have said, to prove God exists you need to prove an infinity does not exist. The lady with the spinning wheel was right about the universe. It is incredibly fine tuned! Science has told us the extreme fine tuning it actually has.

However, atheists say "well there are an infinite so it's just an accident".

The problem is, we can all see the philosophical blunder of believing an infinite even exists.

Allow me to be very critical of your argument in order to understand it better.

You say an infinite does not exist? Does this mean God, who is infinite, does not exist?

Edited by eThErEaL

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Allow me to be very critical of your argument in order to understand it better.

You say an infinite does not exist? Does this mean God, who is infinite, does not exist?

 

Infinite in this universe does not exist. Everything is limited. Science proves this. God is not bound by universal laws though. So, both his and your statements are true depending on the perspective.

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Concerning the existence of God, the best argument for it is to refere to the statements of imam Ali (as) in nahj al balagha, then contemplate and elaborate them logically for the brainy person to get! However it is most evident that had life been accidental then perhabs same accident dont repeat it self with precision like our continual existence repeat with precision, from our birth to our growth to our dearth, from rain and seasons, to the rise and fall of the sun, from human mechanism to universal relations,. If existence was accidental, then now and then we would have seen bizzare creatures born by human and human born from plants and water bublling from the ground, and a child born with his heard between his legs and so on. And as accidents our life would have been unstable and unliverble.

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