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"Does God Not Exist?" Part 2

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jenneh19, your DNA did not just magically fall into place, it evolved by natural selection to what it is today.

Slipperyroads, your DNA did not just magically fall into place by evolving through natural selection, it was created by God.

Edited by eThErEaL

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natural selection =/= magically falling into place

you can try to calculate the probability of a protein molecule forming in its unique sequence, and then explain to us how through natural selection it chooses the correct DNA codes and amino acids to give it its unique properties.

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you can try to calculate the probability of a protein molecule forming in its unique sequence,

in nature, pretty much anything that can happen does happen, probability is not an issue, and there's more to it than that

when we talk about macromolecules, like dna, proteins, carbs, lipids, these things have a way of forming themselves, all by following simple laws of physics

FOR EXAMPLE

look at the cell membrane, you may ask, how do all those lipid molecule arrange themselves into a nice sphere? The reason is because it is thermodynamically the most stable choice in a polar environment (ie in water).

ANOTHER EXAMPLE

look at proteins, they start off as just a chain of amino acids, and then they fold into different shapes just because of the forces they experience

AS FOR DNA

it is self replicating, so you may ask, how does that happen? Well that's a great question but it's a different subject, now we would have to talk about how life began. However looking past that for a moment, you can see we have a self replicating molecule that is always changing.

and then explain to us how through natural selection it chooses the correct DNA codes and amino acids to give it its unique properties.

How is it changing? "Mutations", DNA replication is not perfect, sometimes mistakes happen and if they help the organism, that organism will be more likely to survive/reproduce and if they hurt the organism, the reverse is true.

That's all natural selection is, and it's how it selects the "correct" DNA code. Remember natural selection always adapts to the environment, there is no real right or wrong code.

I can give more examples/explanations if you have questions.

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Some good debates to listen to about the existence of God

"William Lane Craig vs Chris D'Carlo - Does God Matter"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apCW7iE9nM8

Theist vs Atheist Debate - Hassanain Rajabali

Evolution and God in Islam - Hassanain Rajabali

Jamal Badawi - Is Muhammad Prophet of God

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTnYKJtrWBE&feature=PlayList&p=3AE973A4254EB9D1&playnext_from=PL&index=9

"Can We Live Better Lives Without Religion? Muslim vs. Best-Selling Author & Lecturer" - Hamza Andreas Tzortzis vs. Peter Cave.

The Divine Book

For more information, check the link in my signature... Also the following thread is an argument for God's existence in light of scientific theory:

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I can give more examples/explanations if you have questions.

Thermodynamics are governed by the natural laws that exist and have existed since the big bang. Has evolution allowed these laws to perfect themselves to such an nth degree that they allow the building blocks, such as the lipid molecules in a cell membrane, of life to come to perfect being? No. And this is admitted by all theists and athiests alike. At Plank's constant all the laws of the universe came into being and essentially were exactly perfect for life then and there. There was absolutely no need for any time to elapse for these laws to fine tune so that life may be possible.

Anyway..this debate was IMMENSE. Really great to see debators that have a solid grounding in metaphysics and where equipped with the knowledge to back their arguments. You could see the tension crackling between the two sides. Hopefully there are more in the future.

This is a site that athiests use to collate their main points of argument and mode of debate. I recommend it: http://www.infidels.org/library/

Much thanks and blessings to the organisers.

Edited by Ali86

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Thermodynamics are governed by the natural laws that exist and have existed since the big bang. Has evolution allowed these laws to perfect themselves to such an nth degree that they allow the building blocks, such as the lipid molecules in a cell membrane, of life to come to perfect being? No. And this is admitted by all theists and athiests alike. At Plank's constant all the laws of the universe came into being and essentially were exactly perfect for life then and there. There was absolutely no need for any time to elapse for these laws to fine tune so that life may be possible.

Anyway..this debate was IMMENSE. Really great to see debators that have a solid grounding in metaphysics and where equipped with the knowledge to back their arguments. You could see the tension crackling between the two sides. Hopefully there are more in the future.

This is a site that athiests use to collate their main points of argument and mode of debate. I recommend it: http://www.infidels.org/library/

Much thanks and blessings to the organisers.

there was hardly any metaphsyics in that debate. If tehy do have a solid grounding in metaphysics, they didnt show it. But perhaps for good reasons.

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If God is omnipotent why would He choose to become a lowly micro manager, playing around with DNA and protein molecules. Why not think of God as the origin of the natural laws?

--------------------------

Education is key as a holistic, transparent, dialog-oriented process --Queen Rania Al Abdullah

Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people --Eleanor Roosevelt

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There exist axioms from which the least inconsistent definitions of "God" which are logically possible for human mind to derive and contemplate may be so derived, and these axioms are discoverable by the synthetic induction from essential features of human experience.

Evolution has no bearing on this, not as a theory, nor as a fact even if it were a fact (which it actually seems to be in some special cases, not necessarily beyond those, as in explaining all life on earth or some putatively earth-like planet without pre-existent or itenerant visiting life-forms).

From the looks of it though, evolutionary theory is a crock, it is a stage-trick to turn the public eye away from anything more sensible, even better theories of evolution than the mainstream theory of random mutation and consequent flourishing of a lifeform through reproductive superiority enabled by the adaptive changes such a random mutation enabled.

There are also theories in physics and entire schools of economics which have been swept under the rug on a mass scale because they make the monkeys think too much and develop too quickly, and some people on top the pyramid don't like that.

Too bad for them that the pyramid is a house of cards because the only pyramid that matters is the natural one which God established, and it is anything but random. Worse for them, they may find that the realm of entropic thermodynamics that they are so enamored by as to enshrine as universal laws within which ordered mechanics are merely special freak cases, those forces emanate from a morally characterized realm also. Hell.

Edited by Parsaman

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Evolution has no bearing on this, not as a theory, nor as a fact even if it were a fact (which it actually seems to be in some special cases, not necessarily beyond those, as in explaining all life on earth or some putatively earth-like planet without pre-existent or itenerant visiting life-forms).

Evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life. It just shows how life progressed once life actually came about. There is also no need for any kind of pre-existent or visiting life forms, the question would be then, how did those life forms come about. It doesn't really change the question, it just shifts it about.

From the looks of it though, evolutionary theory is a crock,

To be fair and i mean this in the utmost respect, i don't really think you can call evolutionary theory a crock if you haven't actually been trained in understanding it.

Do you tell your doctor the medicine he prescribes is a crock? That'd be silly, you don't know enough about medicines and pharmacology to evaluate such things. Would you trust a dentist to wire your house up or a electrician to take care of your teeth? Why not? Because they're not trained in such things.

it is a stage-trick to turn the public eye away from anything more sensible, even better theories of evolution than the mainstream theory of random mutation and consequent flourishing of a lifeform through reproductive superiority enabled by the adaptive changes such a random mutation enabled.

I think evolution is the best theory and it does a very good job of explaining how things are today.

I'd be happy to take a look at your alternate theories though, please pass them along.

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If God is omnipotent why would He choose to become a lowly micro manager, playing around with DNA and protein molecules. Why not think of God as the origin of the natural laws?

--------------------------

Education is key as a holistic, transparent, dialog-oriented process --Queen Rania Al Abdullah

Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people --Eleanor Roosevelt

ÈÓã Çááå ÇáÑÍãä ÇáÑÍíã

Indeed, our Lord and your Lord is omnipotent. As for those who manage the DNA and proteins [by the permission of our Lord], they are better known as Angels.

Muslims believe that Allah is the origin of natural laws:

In the name of Allah , the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.

- [16:68] And your Lord inspired to the bee, "Take for yourself among the mountains, houses, and among the trees and [in] that which they construct. [surat al-Nahl]

- [16:79] Do they not see the birds controlled in the atmosphere of the sky? None holds them up except Allah . Indeed in that are signs for a people who believe. [surat al-Nahl]

- [27:18] 'Until when they came to the valley of the Naml...' [surat al-Naml]

- [15:22] And We send the fecundating winds, then cause the rain to descend from the sky, therewith providing you with water (in abundance), though ye are not the guardians of its stores. [surat Al-Hijr]

- [16:65] And Allah has sent down rain from the sky and given life thereby to the earth after its lifelessness. Indeed in that is a sign for a people who listen. [surat al-Nahl]

- [23:18] And We have sent down rain from the sky in a measured amount and settled it in the earth. And indeed, We are Able to take it away. [surat al-Mu'minun]

- [14:33] And He subjected for you the sun and the moon, continuous [in orbit], and subjected for you the night and the day. [surat 'Ibrahim]

- [21:33] And it is He who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all [heavenly bodies] in an orbit are swimming. [surat al-'Anbya']

- [36:40] It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming. [surat Ya-Sin]

These are only a few laws out of many.

Allah knows best.

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- [14:33] And He subjected for you the sun and the moon, continuous [in orbit], and subjected for you the night and the day. [surat 'Ibrahim]

- [21:33] And it is He who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all [heavenly bodies] in an orbit are swimming. [surat al-'Anbya']

- [36:40] It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming. [surat Ya-Sin]

Wait wait wait....the sun doesnt orbit anything. It stays where it is. It is we (the earth) that orbits around the sun. Maybe it is just a translational error?

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Wait wait wait....the sun doesnt orbit anything. It stays where it is. It is we (the earth) that orbits around the sun. Maybe it is just a translational error?

Actually it does. You cannot assume something is false out of ignorance that would only lead man to corruption.

You could watch this entire video about some apparent signs of Allah:

-

However, if you only want the part regarding the suns orbit just skip the movie till 10:00

And these are a few signs from Allah to show His creatures that He is the Creator and that He is the All-knowing.

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Wait wait wait....the sun doesnt orbit anything. It stays where it is. It is we (the earth) that orbits around the sun. Maybe it is just a translational error?

It orbits around the centre of a galaxy - the process is called a 'galactic year'.

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we do not see it, it is only after observation we came to know of it. isn't it?

no. its really simply. look at the sky. do you not see the sun moving? it goes from east to west. It rises and sets.

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Yes, but it is the earth that rotates makes the sun go from east to west, not because sun orbits earth.

The earth is not a globe that rotates (and revolves). That is just ridiculous. Your obviously looking at the "earth" very unnaturally--i.e. from so called "space". It is unnatural simply because it is not the same earth which we are from and which we have a lived understanding of. The earth is not something to be objectified but the one and only place we live in and participate in through our bodies.

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And furthermore..whatever "reason" you want to give for why we see the Sun move from east to west, and why we see the earth the center of the entire cosmos does not change the fact that we see the sun move from east to west and that we see the earth as the center of the cosmos.

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