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Halleluyah l’Adoneinu...Yeshua Melech haMashiach

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Guest abaleada

From Seraphim's sig file: "Halleluyah l’Adoneinu Moreinu v’Rabeinu Yeshua Melech haMashiach l’olam vaed"

A list of the requirements of the Messiah compiled from various posts by practising Jews on the Beliefnet boards:

-He will be Jewish

-He will be a regular man born of a regular mother AND a regular father

-He will be of the Tribe of Judah

-He will be a descendant of David and Solomon (through his father's side)

-He cannot be a descendant of Jeconiah

-He will bring about world peace

-He will bring all the Jews back to the Land of Israel

-He will spread a worldwide knowledge of G~d

-He will rebuild the Holy Temple

-He must fulfill ALL of this criteria before he can be considered the Moshiach

returning all the Jews to Israel

world peace

resurrection of the dead

All the annointed kings and priests of Israel were messiahs -- including King David and King Solomon. When we speak of "the" messiah we generally speak of moshiach ben david. . .a messiah who is from the line of King David who will fulfill specific prophecies in Jewish scripture.

For information on the Jewish messiah I recommend http://www.moshiach.com

The quoted material is practically unchanged from how I found it in the various posts. As I get more information, I'll add it. Long story short, Jesus is not THE Messiah.

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The quoted material is practically unchanged from how I found it in the various posts. As I get more information, I'll add it. Long story short, Jesus is not THE Messiah.

Huh????

Abbie are you feeling allright?

I don't think that this makes a whole lot of sense, from an Islamic perspective, as I understood the Islamic view of Jesus. (It certainly doesn't make sense from my own Christian perspective.)

Greg

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Guest abaleada

Greg, many of the ways in which Judaism describes the Messiah are descriptions of Imam al Mahdi in Islam.

4Christ, the Prophecies in the Tanach which describe the Messiah remained unfulfilled by Prophet Jesus. The Christians have taken a free hand in mistranslating many of the Prophecies that describe the Messiah and many passages that have nothing at all to do with the Messiah.

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Imam al mahdi, muhammed ibn hasan al askari, al asr, al zaman, al hujjah...etc. is NOT the Messiah,

as every muslim believes. Quran says 'isa is the messiah-maseeh-i would not argue the jewish messiah

is another person....

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Guest Peace

(bismillah)

4 Christ you do not believe Imam Mahdi (as) is the Messiah .That is a belief not a fact because your wrong. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh known as the trustworthy one mentioned his coming. We believe Prophet Isa (as) has been risen to Allah swt NOT CRUCIFIED to help the IMAM (as) when he comes. It is the Imam Mahdi (as) who will establish justice and peace. In quran it says to every nation we established a guide and the twelth Imam Mahdi (as) is this nations guide. May Allah hasten his reappearance.

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From Seraphim's sig file: "Halleluyah l’Adoneinu Moreinu v’Rabeinu Yeshua Melech haMashiach l’olam vaed"

A list of the requirements of the Messiah compiled from various posts by practising Jews on the Beliefnet boards:

-He will be Jewish

-He will be a regular man born of a regular mother AND a regular father

-He will be of the Tribe of Judah

-He will be a descendant of David and Solomon (through his father's side)

-He cannot be a descendant of Jeconiah

-He will bring about world peace

-He will bring all the Jews back to the Land of Israel

-He will spread a worldwide knowledge of G~d

-He will rebuild the Holy Temple

-He must fulfill ALL of this criteria before he can be considered the Moshiach

returning all the Jews to Israel

world peace

resurrection of the dead

All the annointed kings and priests of Israel were messiahs -- including King David and King Solomon. When we speak of "the" messiah we generally speak of moshiach ben david. . .a messiah who is from the line of King David who will fulfill specific prophecies in Jewish scripture.

For information on the Jewish messiah I recommend http://www.moshiach.com

The quoted material is practically unchanged from how I found it in the various posts. As I get more information, I'll add it. Long story short, Jesus is not THE Messiah.

Well, actually, the Qu'ran calls Jesus (as) the Messiah, in Surah 3:45.

Let me see if I can reconcile the Jewish view of Jesus (as) with the Christian and Muslim view. Christians and Muslims say he was the messiah, Jews say he wasn't because he didn't fulfill all the prophecies. So which is it? Well, maybe all are right. Perhaps the Jews were right to say that Jesus (as) in his original appearance upon the earth, was not the messiah, because at that time, the signs had not been fulfilled. However, perhaps they are also wrong, because, when Jesus (as) reappears, (may Allah hasten his return) he will fulfill at that time the prophecies, and emerge as both the promised messiah of the Jews, and as the second coming that Christians and Muslims prophecy. This reconciles the three prophecies on this matter.

But it gets even more interesting. Where does Imam Mehdi (as) fit into all of this? Jews and Christians agree that the appearance of the Messiah must be preceded by the reappearance of the prophet Elijah (as). Christians and Muslims agree that this prophecy was originally fulfilled 2000 years ago when Yahya bin Zakaria, or John the Baptist appeared, calling people to follow Jesus (as). However, the Jews did not recognize John because, again, the conditions were not right for the rise of the Messiah. But again, perhaps again they were partly right and partly wrong. Perhaps they wrong in saying that John was not a "reincarnation" of Elijah, but on the other hand, were right in that John was not the incarnation of Elijah that was promised in their prophecy. Perhaps the figure that would represent the reappearance of Elijah would only come 870 years later, when Imam Mehdi (as) was born, and will fulfill the Jewish prophecy in full when he will reappear, (may Allah hasten his return) preparing the way for the return of the Prophet Jesus (as).

Think about this. In this way, the prophecies of all three of the world's Abrahamic faiths will converge together. The true believers of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims will converge together behind these two men and unite to fight their real common enemy; the dajjal, or anti-Christ, the servant of Satan who has brought the world into such corruption. And is this not a cause for optimism?

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Guest abaleada
Well, actually, the Qu'ran calls Jesus (as) the Messiah, in Surah 3:45.

Let me see if I can reconcile the Jewish view of Jesus (as) with the Christian and Muslim view. Christians and Muslims say he was the messiah, Jews say he wasn't because he didn't fulfill all the prophecies. So which is it? Well, maybe all are right. Perhaps the Jews were right to say that Jesus (as) in his original appearance upon the earth, was not the messiah, because at that time, the signs had not been fulfilled. However, perhaps they are also wrong, because, when Jesus (as) reappears, (may Allah hasten his return) he will fulfill at that time the prophecies, and emerge as both the promised messiah of the Jews, and as the second coming that Christians and Muslims prophecy. This reconciles the three prophecies on this matter.

But it gets even more interesting. Where does Imam Mehdi (as) fit into all of this? Jews and Christians agree that the appearance of the Messiah must be preceded by the reappearance of the prophet Elijah (as). Christians and Muslims agree that this prophecy was originally fulfilled 2000 years ago when Yahya bin Zakaria, or John the Baptist appeared, calling people to follow Jesus (as). However, the Jews did not recognize John because, again, the conditions were not right for the rise of the Messiah. But again, perhaps again they were partly right and partly wrong. Perhaps they wrong in saying that John was not a "reincarnation" of Elijah, but on the other hand, were right in that John was not the incarnation of Elijah that was promised in their prophecy. Perhaps the figure that would represent the reappearance of Elijah would only come 870 years later, when Imam Mehdi (as) was born, and will fulfill the Jewish prophecy in full when he will reappear, (may Allah hasten his return) preparing the way for the return of the Prophet Jesus (as).

Think about this. In this way, the prophecies of all three of the world's Abrahamic faiths will converge together. The true believers of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims will converge together behind these two men and unite to fight their real common enemy; the dajjal, or anti-Christ, the servant of Satan who has brought the world into such corruption. And is this not a cause for optimism?

(bismillah)

(salam)

My take on it goes something like this: The Jews have the concept of teh Mahdi, but got confused and called him The Messiah instead. In this sense, Jesus is not The (Jewish) Messiah. However, in the sense of the Hebrew word (whose root I will learn to spell), which means "to wipe/to annoint", Prophet Jesus was very much annointed as one of the highest-ranking Prophets in history.

Your theory on the second appearance possibly fulfilling the prophecies is also a possibility. However, I really see many of the HS prophecies being fulfilled in the future by Imam Mahdi.

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:blink: k thanks abbie.

But just so you know, Judaism has changed. The modern day Judaic view of Messiah is very different than the view of Messiah that the ancient (around the time of Jesus) Jews held about Messiah. I think (I am not positive) that some Jews way back then even thought that the Messiah would not have a mother or a father.

But if you care to discuss this more abbie, I am sure we can :)

Salaam and Shalom.

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Guest abaleada

The man destined to be the Messiah will be a direct descendant of King David (Isaiah 11:1) through the family of Solomon, David's son (1 Chronicles 22:9-l0). He will cause all the world to serve God together (Isaiah 11:2), be wiser than Solomon (Mishnah Torah Repentance 9:2), greater than the patriarchs and prophets (Aggadah Genesis 67), and more honored than kings (Mishnah Sanhedrin 10), for he will reign as king of the world (Pirkei Eliezer).

Amongst the most basic missions that the Messiah will accomplish during his lifetime (Isaiah 42:4) are to:

Oversee the rebuilding of Jerusalem, including the Third Temple, in the event that it has not yet been rebuilt (Michah 4:1 and Ezekiel 40-45)

Gather the Jewish people from all over the world and bring them home to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 11:12; 27:12-13)

Influence every individual of every nation to abandon and be ashamed of their former beliefs (or non-beliefs) and acknowledge and serve only the One True God of Israel (Isaiah 11:9-10; 40:5 and Zephaniah 3:9)

Bring about global peace throughout the world (Isaiah 2:4; 11:5-9 and Michah 4:3-4).

Psalm 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, (KJV)

This verse is quoted here:

Acts 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. (KJV)

(Christ is a variation of the Greek word meaning, "anointed.")

As is the case with all Christian quotations of the Jewish Bible, we are expected to take it as the truth just because it says so. However, examining other passages from the book of Psalms reveals that Psalm 2 has David speaking of himself:

Psalms 18:50 Great deliverance giveth he to his king; and sheweth mercy to his anointed, to David, and to his seed for evermore. (KJV)

Psalms 89:20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: (KJV)

Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. (KJV)

This verse has the Lord speaking of his "son," so, since the Christians believe Jesus is the son of G-d, then this can only be talking about Jesus. In Hebrew, there are no capital or lower case letters. By capitalizing the "s" in "son," the publishers of the King James Bible is intentionally trying to lead the reader to belief in Jesus. All of this implies that the Lord never spoke of anyone else as His son. Scripture emphatically states otherwise.

Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called My son out of Egypt.

Here, the people of Israel are collectively G-d's "son."

1 Chronicles 22:9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days. [10] He shall build a house for my name; and he shall be My son, and I [will be] his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever. (KJV)

Here, Solomon is referred to as G-d's "son." Obviously, the title isn't Jesus' sole claim.

Psalms 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him. (KJV)

This is a very simply case of mistranslation, but not in the traditional sense. The word that the KJV translated as "Son" is the Hebrew word "bar." This word does indeed mean "son," but not in the Hebrew language, but in the closely related Aramaic language. In Hebrew, the word means "purity." Of the 150 Psalms, not a single one of them is written in Aramaic; it's entirely in Hebrew.

Psalms 22:1 My G-d, my G-d, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? (KJV)

This verse is quoted in Matthew and Mark:

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My G-d, my G-d, why hast thou forsaken me? (KJV)

Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? Which is, being interpreted, My G-d, my G-d, why hast thou forsaken me? (KJV)

Firstly, what Jesus says here is definitely Hebrew. "Lama" is one of the two Hebrew words which can be translated as the interrogative, "why?" Secondly, what he says here is categorically NOT a quote of Psalm 22:1. "Why have you forsaken me" is in Hebrew, "lama azavtani." That is a noteworthy difference from "lama sabachthani." What Jesus said on the cross is actually "why have you slaughtered me." Jesus, the man-god, savior of all mankind, cries out to the Lord, not knowing why this fate had befallen him.

Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. (KJV)

At first glance, we couldn't possibly find a verse that more loudly screamed of Christianity. It speaks of someone having his hands and feet pierced. Obviously, only one person in the history of the world has had their hands and feet pierced. (This is a prime example of how you need to first believe in Jesus before even the mistranslated representation of what King David wrote can be used as a "proof.") Secondly, what really went on during a crucifixion is that the wrists and ankles were pierced, not the hands and feet. This might seem like nitpicking to one who is not prepared to take this seriously, but it is a valid point nonetheless. Thirdly, we are dealing with a mistranslation. What you see for the word "pierced" is translated from the Hebrew "ka'ari," which means "like a lion." This word is used again in that very same Psalm:

Psalm 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns. (KJV)

Odd, that KJV would translate the very same word as "pierced" in verse 16, but as lion in verse 21. I suppose if the word really did mean "pierce" then verse 21 should read "Save me from the pierced mouth" but of course, that makes no sense.

Psalm 22:7 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

So, Jesus, the god-man, is calling himself a worm? On the other hand, the worm reference is found elsewhere in Scripture:

Isaiah 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. (KJV)

So, the Jewish people are likened to a worm, and the comparison here makes it much more likely that David was writing about the plight of the Jew. For some reason, Christians find it hard to believe that the Psalmist would be writing about his own people.

Psalm 69:4 They that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head: they that would destroy me, being mine enemies wrongfully, are mighty: then I restored that which I took not away. (KJV)

Quoted here:

John 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. (KJV)

this Psalm disagrees with the New Testament's portrayal of Jesus:

Psalms 69:5 O G-d, thou knowest my foolishness; and my sins are not hid from thee. (KJV)

It is quite well known that Christians espouse the doctrine of Jesus' "sinless nature." However, if the New Testament wants to apply Psalm 69 to Jesus, the Jewish people have no problem with the idea.

Psalm 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. (KJV)

This is a perfect example of the old adage "it loses something in the translation." At first glance, this would seem like G-d is talking to Himself. However, this simply is not the case. The name, which KJV capitalizes above, is the designation for the four-letter sacred name of G-d. The "Lord" which is not entirely capitalized above is the Hebrew word "adoni," which means "my master." In modern spoken Hebrew, it is used as one would use the word "sir" in English.

King David, while not allowed to build the Temple, did everything he could to prepare the way for it to be built, and among the things he did was compile the book of Psalms to be sung by the Levites in the Temple. This Psalm was meant to be sung by the Levites, and thus reflects their point of view, for they would call their king "adoni."

There are 304,805 letters (approximately 79,000 words) in the Torah. In the over 3,000 years since Moses received the original Scripture from Mt. Sinai and wrote the 13 copies (twelve of which were distributed among the Tribes), spelling variants have emerged on a total of nine words -- with absolutely no effect on their meaning. The Christian Bible, in comparison, has over 200,000 variants and in 400 instances, the variants change the meaning of the text; 50 of these are of great significance.

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No, Judaism has changed. Its biggest change was when the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE. It also changed when the Conservative and Reform split from Orthodoxy. But all that is besides the point.

The man destined to be the Messiah will be a direct descendant of King David (Isaiah 11:1) through the family of Solomon, David's son (1 Chronicles 22:9-l0). He will cause all the world to serve God together (Isaiah 11:2), be wiser than Solomon (Mishnah Torah Repentance 9:2), greater than the patriarchs and prophets (Aggadah Genesis 67), and more honored than kings (Mishnah Sanhedrin 10), for he will reign as king of the world (Pirkei Eliezer).

Amongst the most basic missions that the Messiah will accomplish during his lifetime (Isaiah 42:4) are to:

Oversee the rebuilding of Jerusalem, including the Third Temple, in the event that it has not yet been rebuilt (Michah 4:1 and Ezekiel 40-45)

Gather the Jewish people from all over the world and bring them home to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 11:12; 27:12-13)

Influence every individual of every nation to abandon and be ashamed of their former beliefs (or non-beliefs) and acknowledge and serve only the One True God of Israel (Isaiah 11:9-10; 40:5 and Zephaniah 3:9)

Bring about global peace throughout the world (Isaiah 2:4; 11:5-9 and Michah 4:3-4).

Abby--I agree with everything that you have posted. I just disagree with the notion that the "third temple" is being discussed in Micah 4:1 and Ezekiel 40-45. Those verses indicate a future Temple, but not necessarily the third temple. And of course, I do disagree with the time that Messiah will do all of this.

I await the Messiah to return (but not as a humble suffering servant, but as King and Warrior). Perhaps one might describe it like Mashiach ben Yosef and Mashiach ben David.

And I am not going to get into all that KJV stuff. But I will comment on this:

This verse is quoted in Matthew and Mark:

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My G-d, my G-d, why hast thou forsaken me? (KJV)

Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? Which is, being interpreted, My G-d, my G-d, why hast thou forsaken me? (KJV)

Firstly, what Jesus says here is definitely Hebrew. "Lama" is one of the two Hebrew words which can be translated as the interrogative, "why?" Secondly, what he says here is categorically NOT a quote of Psalm 22:1. "Why have you forsaken me" is in Hebrew, "lama azavtani." That is a noteworthy difference from "lama sabachthani." What Jesus said on the cross is actually "why have you slaughtered me." Jesus, the man-god, savior of all mankind, cries out to the Lord, not knowing why this fate had befallen him.

No, what Yeshua was speaking in was Aramaic (sometimes called Hebrew-lite). I believe that Matthew and Mark (Mattai and Marqus) were originally penned in Aramaic, then translated into Greek. When we read in Matthew and Mark, we read:

Matthew 27:46 - ηλι ηλι λαμα σαβαχθανι (eli eli lama sabachthani)

Mark 15:34 - ελοι ελοι λιμα σαβαχθανι (eloi eloi lima sabachthani)

When we examine this in the Aramaic we see the following:

Mattai 27:46 - ܠܰܡܳܐ ܫܒ݂ܰܩܬܳܢܺܝoܐܺܝܠܺܝ ܐܺܝܠܺܝ ('eelee, 'eelee, lamo' shvaqtonee)

This (in Aramaic) translates directly as: "my God, my God, for what you have allowed me."

Marqus 15:34 - ܠܶܡܳܐ ܫܒ݂ܰܩܬܳܢܺܝoܐܰܠܳܗܺܝ ܐܰܠܳܗܺܝ ('alohee, 'alohee, lemo' shvaqtonee)

This also directly translates to: "my God ('alohee), my God ('alohee), for what (lemo') you have allowed me (shvaqtonee).

Both are basically saying "why have you allowed this to happen to me" (I think). Paul Younan translates the 'allow' as 'spared.'

Sorry, just a little language lesson :) .

Salaam and Shalom.

Edited by Netzari

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