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AnotherShepherd

Quranic/Biblical stories as allegory?

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8 minutes ago, AnotherShepherd said:

So you believe these stories are to be understood literally? 

No ,as you said it is allegory , watch from Ark of Noah to Ark of Hussain .

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4 hours ago, AnotherShepherd said:

Noah's Arc, Surah Kahf, etc. 

Why can't we understand it as allegory? 

A few centuries ago practically all Christians and Jews believed the stories  of Noah, Moses and Adam were authentic. Today many of us believe they are myths. In Sweden I would estimate this to be 98% of Christians. Dont know what our Muslims think.

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8 hours ago, AnotherShepherd said:

Noah's Arc, Surah Kahf, etc. 

Why can't we understand it as allegory? 

أَمْ حَسِبْتَ أَنَّ أَصْحَابَ الْكَهْفِ وَالرَّقِيمِ كَانُوا مِنْ آيَاتِنَا عَجَبًا {9}

[Pickthal 18:9] Or deemest thou that the People of the Cave and the Inscription are a wonder among Our portents?

إِذْ أَوَى الْفِتْيَةُ إِلَى الْكَهْفِ فَقَالُوا رَبَّنَا آتِنَا مِنْ لَدُنْكَ رَحْمَةً وَهَيِّئْ لَنَا مِنْ أَمْرِنَا رَشَدًا {10}

[Pickthal 18:10] When the young men fled for refuge to the Cave and said: Our Lord! Give us mercy from Thy presence, and shape for us right conduct in our plight.

فَضَرَبْنَا عَلَىٰ آذَانِهِمْ فِي الْكَهْفِ سِنِينَ عَدَدًا {11}

[Pickthal 18:11] Then We sealed up their hearing in the Cave for a number of years.

ثُمَّ بَعَثْنَاهُمْ لِنَعْلَمَ أَيُّ الْحِزْبَيْنِ أَحْصَىٰ لِمَا لَبِثُوا أَمَدًا {12}

[Pickthal 18:12] And afterward We raised them up that We might know which of the two parties would best calculate the time that they had tarried.

نَحْنُ نَقُصُّ عَلَيْكَ نَبَأَهُمْ بِالْحَقِّ ۚ إِنَّهُمْ فِتْيَةٌ آمَنُوا بِرَبِّهِمْ وَزِدْنَاهُمْ هُدًى {13}

[Pickthal 18:13] We narrate unto thee their story with truth. Lo! they were young men who believed in their Lord, and We increased them in guidance.

وَرَبَطْنَا عَلَىٰ قُلُوبِهِمْ إِذْ قَامُوا فَقَالُوا رَبُّنَا رَبُّ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ لَنْ نَدْعُوَ مِنْ دُونِهِ إِلَٰهًا ۖ لَقَدْ قُلْنَا إِذًا شَطَطًا {14}

[Pickthal 18:14] And We made firm their hearts when they stood forth and said: Our Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth. We cry unto no Allah beside Him, for then should we utter an enormity.

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3 hours ago, andres said:

Today many of us believe they are myths. 

And the solid/Data you present and the "System" you utilize to make this claim?

Or is it that some one went to an Ivy league Uni and wrote a book and works for a well known lab or is recognized as the greatest "scientist" - by All the Atheist and Agnostics and Modern, forward thinking people who rely on "Evidence based" conclusions only, is successful in marketing it as there is huge demand for such empty claims. 

Hey, man, this great person said it, I am off the hook. Lets party....

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12 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

And the solid/Data you present and the "System" you utilize to make this claim?

Or is it that some one went to an Ivy league Uni and wrote a book and works for a well known lab or is recognized as the greatest "scientist" - by All the Atheist and Agnostics and Modern, forward thinking people who rely on "Evidence based" conclusions only, is successful in marketing it as there is huge demand for such empty claims. 

Hey, man, this great person said it, I am off the hook. Lets party....

You know the answer.

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18 minutes ago, andres said:

You know the answer.

NO I do not know why an intelligent person, believes in the theories put forward by people who were raised in a anti religious culture, went to primary secondary high school college university got their Phd's from institution who promote and teach Atheism, and Agnosticism, work in a system rigged to promote the same Values or  you are demonize in terms of having no friends or fame and sidelined or your projects not funded or your book hits the most unread list as its not the "Theme " of today and no one can use the myths in it to relieve themselves and justify their life style.

 

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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3 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

NO I do not know why an intelligent person, believes in the theories put forward by people who were raised in a anti religious culture, went to primary secondary high school college university got their Phd's from institution who promote and teach Atheism, and Agnosticism, work in a system rigged to promote the same Values or  you are demonize in terms of having no friends or fame and sidelined or your projects not funded or your book hits the most unread list as its not the "Theme " of today and no one can use the myths in it to relieve themselves and justify their life style.

 

Lots of Scientists are religious Christians. It is no problem combining being Christian with the belief that Abraham and Noah are mythical persons. The Bible never claims that God wrote the Bible. However being a Scientist and believr the Biblical stories of Adam, Noah and Moses are exact, is very very difficult.

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21 hours ago, andres said:

Lots of Scientists are religious Christians. It is no problem combining being Christian with the belief that Abraham and Noah are mythical persons. The Bible never claims that God wrote the Bible. However being a Scientist and believr the Biblical stories of Adam, Noah and Moses are exact, is very very difficult.

You mean by "Scientists" people who study and obtained at least a Phd and have extensive work experience in the field of Cosmology, Astrophysics, Biology, Botany, Zoology, Chemistry, Mathematics etc...

Why would any one be interested in the carpenters or car mechanics opinion on if one needs brain surgery or not? 

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29 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

You mean by "Scientists" people who study and obtained at least a Phd and have extensive work experience in the field of Cosmology, Astrophysics, Biology, Botany, Zoology, Chemistry, Mathematics etc...

Why would any one be interested in the carpenters or car mechanics opinion on if one needs brain surgery or not? 

There are also carpenters and mechanich that have interests in natural science and know about the arguments for subjects noone had heard about not very long ago. Continental drift was proved only 40 years ago. 

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2 minutes ago, andres said:

There are also carpenters and mechanich that have interests in natural science and know about the arguments for subjects

Point is very clear, people know about many things above and beyond their field of study, But there are not Experts in ALL fields, on in their field of study. 

You do not take a Phd in Biology from an Ivy league School, with extensive experience in his/her particular  filed of study with few books on the subject, and many public lectures and listen to him/her as a SME ( Subject Matter Expert) in Physics. 

This what you and others try to imply when this Generic and Umbrella Term "Science" or  " Scientists" is used to imply an Scale and Expert Opinion. 

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36 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

According to whom? Joe the biologist ? what evidence is provided?

Great claims require great evidence. The body of religion will always lose in this, because there is no way to prove. There is just faith. 

I'm surprised not many people have chimed into this thread. If I were a non Shi'i I'd be hard pressed to clearly say whether the Shi'i believe these stories literally happened or if they're allegories. 

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2 minutes ago, AnotherShepherd said:

Great claims require great evidence. The body of religion will always lose in this, because there is no way to prove. There is just faith. 

I'm surprised not many people have chimed into this thread. If I were a non Shi'i I'd be hard pressed to clearly say whether the Shi'i believe these stories literally happened or if they're allegories. 

Entitlement mentality does not help here.

You and I have been given Intellect. You have the same resources as anyone else. Utilize it and figure out if something is true on not, Why do you think I need to prove anything to you? 

You are not going to use me as evidence on the day of judgement. Faith requires your own research and understanding.

People who try to negate it, and are relentless in their pursuit to disprove something they disbelieve in, is of great interest to me. They should provide evidence to prove their claims, just chanting mythical  does not cut it anymore. They follow "Scientific" methods, so lets see the evidence

 

 

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On 4/25/2018 at 11:56 PM, AnotherShepherd said:

Noah's Arc, Surah Kahf, etc. 

Why can't we understand it as allegory? 

At least with respect to the Evangelical Christian view of Noah's ark, this story is certainly not a literally true story.

Many evangelicals still believe that the planet is 6000 years old as well. It is embarrassing for Christian's. Not sure where Muslims stand on the topic.

Many Christian's I think forget that scripture was indeed written by fallable people. As opposed to being written by God Himself. Typically they're also scientifically illiterate.

Edited by iCambrian

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1 hour ago, S.M.H.A. said:

According to whom? Joe the biologist ? what evidence is provided?

What makes his existence questiones is that he is mentioned for the first time in the Torah, written 1.000 years after he is supposed to  have lived. 

You better ask what evidence there are that Abraham has existed.

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1 hour ago, AnotherShepherd said:

 There is just faith. 

This is often used as a weapon against people to shut them up. You Faith people, vs We Evidence and Science people. 

This question is multidimensional and multi layered to begin with. The Writer of the Book, the one who delivered the Book and the message, what else is contained in the Book, the Life of the One who delivered the Message, and the lives of the Ahlul Bayth(as). You look at at least this much as ask yourself Who is your Imam/ Mawla? 

Do you think, I should worry or feel insecure if the Atheist asked me why I believe in my Mawla? verses his Mawla who is joe who grew up in a atheist culture, graduated with a Phd from an Ivy league institution that promotes that Value system, works in that system , wrote a book and needs to make money of that book by selling it, and get a lot of lecture contracts which gives him/her money and ability to promote his/her book to the like minded readers, so its best seller - Lots of $, in his/her pocket.  Has your best interest- Did he pay with his Blood? 

As far as the Physical evidence, if it was necessary it would have been provided along with exact coordinates with longitude and latitude,  to find the ark. or existence of a person or the river that was crossed. You are dealing with people who can't see anything beyond Physical . 

( to be continued)

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On 4/26/2018 at 7:15 PM, andres said:

Abraham and Noah are mythical persons.

Noah may be proved through a great flood that happened about 9000-6000 B.C. in southern Mesopotamia.

Abraham can be proved through the haplotype J1-FGC11 which is specific to the tribe of the holy prophet (sawas), this haplotype is suggested to date to Mesopotamia, specifically Sumer/Babylon/Chaldea. 

Edited by M.IB

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On 26/04/2018 at 7:48 AM, AnotherShepherd said:

So you believe these stories are to be understood literally? 

 

On 26/04/2018 at 7:58 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

No ,as you said it is allegory , watch from Ark of Noah to Ark of Hussain .

These stories have many layers of understanding.

Thank God for the yearly ritual of Ashura and the visitations of the shrines the being literal of these events is kept sacrosanct.

This seems to be a new technique from marking events from Adam(as) to the other Prophets(as) and eventually in the culmination of our Holy Prophet(sawws) as allegorical and the death of monotheism, Not to worry Husayn (as) is there to safeguard it.

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11 hours ago, M.IB said:

Noah may be proved through a great flood that happened about 9000-6000 B.C. in southern Mesopotamia.

Abraham can be proved through the haplotype J1-FGC11 which is specific to the tribe of the holy prophet (sawas), this haplotype is suggested to date to Mesopotamia, specifically Sumer/Babylon/Chaldea. 

"...may be proved.."

You have no idea what "to prove" means.

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