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I have some questions regarding how the bible was corrupted . Is there any evidence besides what's mentioned in the  quraan ? I have previously thought that the bible was corrupted because there were 4 different versions of the bible , but then my Christian friend mentioned that the bible was compsed of many texts written by the different companions of Jesus and each had its own stories about Him .How do we know  as muslims that the scribes and priests changed the intial words of god ? Is there any proof?

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For one, The Bible was written down a long time after Isa [AS], Secondly - Many scholars acknowledge that the bible is changed and even mark some verses to show this Was from Jesus for sure and such and such wasn't. And Lastly, The amount of contradictions in the 4 canonical books are insane... To think a man wasn't making mistake after mistake while writing this is absurd.

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:bismillah:

CHAPTER 4,  

O people! Surely the Messenger has come to you with the truthfrom your Lord, therefore believe,(it shall be)good for you;and if you disbelieve, then surely whatever is in the heavens andthe earth is Allãh's; and Allãh is Knowing, Wise(4:170).

O People of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion and do not speak about Allãh except the truth; the Messiah, ‘Īsã son of Maryam is only a Messenger of Allãh and His Word which He conveyed to Maryam and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allãh and His messengers, and say not, Three.Desist, it is better for you; Allãh is only one God: far be it from His glory that He should have a son; whatever is in the heavensand whatever is in the earth is His; and Allãh is sufficient for a Protector(4:171).

When Quran "Say not, three", it is rejecting concept of trinity of Christianity. For further inception you can look tafseer of these verses.

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People try to go way too deep, and I can't blame them, but think logically. Allah created us, and put us on Earth to have a purpose, and gave us religions to follow. Serval books were sent down, and If I want to follow a book, then It has to be perfect, and the messager will be in fit to spread the truth, and Allah knows truly that we need leaders to follow on Earth, and those leaders needs to be perfect in my opinion, and me reading about ahlulbayt, I can't see another way. People tend to complicate things for ourselves, when Islam is actually easy.

I don't have to explain christianity, It speaks by itself. I mean why run a race you already won?

Show your religion through actions, not words. - Imam Sadiq (as)

Edited by Hamodiii

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2 hours ago, Arkon said:

For one, The Bible was written down a long time after Isa [AS], Secondly - Many scholars acknowledge that the bible is changed and even mark some verses to show this Was from Jesus for sure and such and such wasn't. And Lastly, The amount of contradictions in the 4 canonical books are insane... To think a man wasn't making mistake after mistake while writing this is absurd.

Also if you take into account the language being misinterpreted from languages of the west to the Far East who knows how many mistakes there could be. It’s funny because when you think of something like the White Rhino being named look at the difficulty the translation from Dutch to English has caused in the 1800s alone, Can you imagine how difficult it would be for a holy text written in languages not of your own compiled hundreds of years after the events of prophet Jesus’ life. 

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On 4/4/2018 at 1:48 PM, Arkon said:

For one, The Bible was written down a long time after Isa [AS], Secondly - Many scholars acknowledge that the bible is changed and even mark some verses to show this Was from Jesus for sure and such and such wasn't. And Lastly, The amount of contradictions in the 4 canonical books are insane... To think a man wasn't making mistake after mistake while writing this is absurd.

Sure like to see some evidence of any of this and that, such n such stuff. It sounds interesting.

Jesus came to remove the corruption from the religion, not the past scriptures. In the same way Muhammad came to remove the corruption from the religion, not the past scriptures, the Quran "confirms past scripture".

Trinity is a perfect example of a doctrine that is not backed up by the scriptures. It was a decision made some 400 years later, but the scriptures didn't change. Why would you consider the scriptures corrupt because someone made a religion out of it?

You'll have to bring to light some of these "insane" contradictions. Basically the Gospels are rejected because the "transmitters" preferred not to be known. Then Paul is accused of starting all the false doctrines. Totally trumped up, but the scriptures didn't change.

Somebody said that somebody said, that somebody said that somebody was sitting by a fire next to somebody who said that somebody said that someone's brother in law said somebody sitting next to the Prophet said "It is the first job of every new religion to debase previous religions or people won't see a reason to revert". 

"Scholars" would like you to think past scriptures were on public display, scrubbed up by whoever felt like adding a story. Drug around by donkeys, left out in the rain, whatever. It's never in their best interest to talk about something like "The holy of holies" The security of archives with a death penalty. What's left of the dead sea scrolls are still word for word. The King James, and Douay versions translated from different sources, yet closer than Haffs and Warsh, which never had to be translated.

The Torah was oral until it could be written down. Then it was copied because originals could not be preserved and people wanted duplicates. Then it was compiled during the Persian period, 500-300 BC. 

The Quran was oral until it could be written down. Then it was copied because originals could not be preserved and people wanted duplicates. Then it was compiled by Uthman ibn Affan 150-250 years after Muhammad. 

Somehow they all survived. 

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4 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

The Quran was oral until it could be written down. Then it was copied because originals could not be preserved and people wanted duplicates. Then it was compiled by Uthman ibn Affan 150-250 years after Muhammad.

Have you read about the Birmingham Quran manuscripts?

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/07/world-oldest-quran-manuscripts-uk-150722110034399.html

"Following radiocarbon analysis by the University of Oxford, the manuscripts, written on parchments, have been dated to from between AD 568 and 645, with 95 percent accuracy.

The results place the papers close to the time of the Prophet Muhammad, who is generally thought to have lived between AD 570 and 632."

 

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4 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

The Torah was oral until it could be written down. Then it was copied because originals could not be preserved and people wanted duplicates. Then it was compiled during the Persian period, 500-300 BC. 

The Quran was oral until it could be written down. Then it was copied because originals could not be preserved and people wanted duplicates. Then it was compiled by Uthman ibn Affan 150-250 years after Muhammad. 

Somehow they all survived. 

I believe the compilation by Uthman was only 20 years after Muhammed. In comparison with 40-70 years after Jesus when it comes to the Gospels. The risk that not everything has been pefectly preserved is overwhelming for all 5 scriptures. 

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5 minutes ago, TheGreenWanderer said:

Have you read about the Birmingham Quran manuscripts?

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/07/world-oldest-quran-manuscripts-uk-150722110034399.html

"Following radiocarbon analysis by the University of Oxford, the manuscripts, written on parchments, have been dated to from between AD 568 and 645, with 95 percent accuracy.

The results place the papers close to the time of the Prophet Muhammad, who is generally thought to have lived between AD 570 and 632."

 

Most likely the Quran and the Gospels we have today are very similar to the Quran in 650AD and the 4 Gospels in the first millennium. After which they were copie and distributed all over corruption would no longer be possible. What happened before this is more uncertain. But the central messages of the 5 documents would of course be the same.

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3 hours ago, TheGreenWanderer said:

Have you read about the Birmingham Quran manuscripts?

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/07/world-oldest-quran-manuscripts-uk-150722110034399.html

"Following radiocarbon analysis by the University of Oxford, the manuscripts, written on parchments, have been dated to from between AD 568 and 645, with 95 percent accuracy.

The results place the papers close to the time of the Prophet Muhammad, who is generally thought to have lived between AD 570 and 632."

 

This is true. Who wrote them?

There are fragments of the Quran in many parts of the world, even Russia...who wrote them? The Samarkand Kufic Quran is believed to be the work of Uthman, (671) but carbon dating (95% accuracy) says it's 8th, 9th century. How is this possible? The Sana'a manuscript was found with other Quranic, and non Quranic manuscripts, comprised of two layers of text, the upper layer is considered genuine Uthman, and the lower contains many variants from it. Who wrote them? Uthman's job was not to write a Quran, only to decide what was and was not, then compile these manuscripts into one book.

We could imagine 1000 bad things happened to the text over this period of time if we were so inclined. 

 

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"Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian." (Quran 15:9)

Humans can be arrogant - they will interpret religion the way they want. History has shown that even Muslims have tried to interpret the verses of Quran to suit the Caliphs of their time who wanted nothing but power. Verses that were related to our infallible Imams (as) were interpreted in very smart way to take away the honor Allah had bestowed on them. History is full of ignorant, arrogant and self-absorbed people who never wanted to accept the true message of Islam. Although the Quran is unaltered, it's message is definitely altered for those who don't hold on to the teachings of Ahlulabyt (as) and our 12 Imams (as).

Likewise, the bible (I don't mean to offend anyone here) is full of stories written by arrogant men who wanted to bring down the honor Allah had bestowed on certain Prophets (as). Stories such as Prophet Lut (as) committing incest etc. is against reason and logic. The concept of trinity is also a perfect example that man due to his limited IQ (thousands of years ago) decided to come up with an idea that Jesus may of come to Earth in the form of God.

Reason, faith and submission suggests that Quran is unaltered and Bible is corrupted.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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9 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Sure like to see some evidence of any of this and that, such n such stuff. It sounds interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible#Table_I:_Chronological_overview

 

9 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

not the past scriptures, the Quran "confirms past scripture".

The Qur'an confirms what Jesus preached was the Truth, Did Jesus preach the Trinity? No.

 

9 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

You'll have to bring to light some of these "insane" contradictions. Basically the Gospels are rejected because the "transmitters" preferred not to be known. Then Paul is accused of starting all the false doctrines. Totally trumped up, but the scriptures didn't change.

1. Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?

God did (2 Samuel 24: 1)

Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1)

2. In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel?

Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)

One million, one hundred thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)

3. How many fighting men were found in Judah?

Five hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)

Four hundred and seventy thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)

4. God sent his prophet to threaten David with how many years of famine?

Seven (2 Samuel 24:13)

Three (I Chronicles 21:12)

5. How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem?

Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26)

Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2)

 

And i'd like to add, So many different [and sometimes unknown] people have authored the Bible, How can you trust their authenticity?

 

9 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

The Quran was oral until it could be written down. Then it was copied because originals could not be preserved and people wanted duplicates. Then it was compiled by Uthman ibn Affan 150-250 years after Muhammad. 

Factually incorrect. Zayd wrote down the revelation every time it came down to Muhammed. Abu Bakr collected the mushaf, Uthman standardized it.

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Salaam,

I will cite 3 examples.

1) The Torah is supposed to have been written by Prophet Musa (as) (Moses) and yet it contains his obituary. Clearly, someone else wrote it.

2) In the Gospel of Mark, the original text ends at verse 8 in CH 16. Later manuscripts contain verses 9-20 so something is amiss.

3) The later chapters in the New Testament are written by Paul who never met Jesus.

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On 04/04/2018 at 8:29 PM, Walaa said:

I have some questions regarding how the bible was corrupted . Is there any evidence besides what's mentioned in the  quraan ? I have previously thought that the bible was corrupted because there were 4 different versions of the bible , but then my Christian friend mentioned that the bible was compsed of many texts written by the different companions of Jesus and each had its own stories about Him .How do we know  as muslims that the scribes and priests changed the intial words of god ? Is there any proof?

In Islam we have the book the Injeel, this was revealed to Nabi Isa AS and this is the "good news" he preached.

Today we have a book called the Bible. It is not the Injeel. It was allegedly written by companions of Jesus and church scholars and unknown people. Even the Christians will admit, Jesus never oversaw or wrote any of the Bible. Its more akin to hadith than quran. The bible we have now has been created and edited and selected not by Jesus, but fallible beings long after Jesus era. They chose which accounts to include, and which to dismiss. 

The real question is what happened to the Injeel, It appears to have been mixed with the Bible and now we do not know where the Injeel starts and the bible stops. 

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3 hours ago, Arkon said:

Factually incorrect. Zayd wrote down the revelation every time it came down to Muhammed. Abu Bakr collected the mushaf, Uthman standardized it.

There is no way we can know if this is correct. Zayd was probably not present every time Muhammed had a revelation. Some revelations were written down on all sorts material, some were remembered orally, and after Muhammed died they were all collected, none lost, no false ones included. All preserved as Gabriel had said, perfectly remembered by Muhammed.  According to tradition. Who´s tradition?

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1 hour ago, iraqi_shia said:

The real question is what happened to the Injeel, It appears to have been mixed with the Bible and now we do not know where the Injeel starts and the bible stops. 

There never was an Injeel. The Quran is the first Book preachhing the religion of Muslims. Everybody but Muslims realises this.

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13 hours ago, andres said:

There never was an Injeel. The Quran is the first Book preachhing the religion of Muslims. Everybody but Muslims realises this.

So you believe Jesus did not preach anything? nothing was sent from God to Jesus?

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22 hours ago, andres said:

There is no way we can know if this is correct.

With the way Ahadith are narrated and preserved, There is.

22 hours ago, andres said:

Zayd was probably not present every time Muhammed had a revelation.

There are only 2 times when he wasn't. During Surat al Alaq [ A very short surah, any child can memorize] And Surat al Muddathir [Where his wife was present]. 

22 hours ago, andres said:

some were remembered orally

Factually incorrect, All Written down: {From Kharijah ibn Zaid said: a number of people entered to Zaid Ibn Thabit tell us some of the tales and stories from the prophet then he said: what should I tell you? I was the neighbour of the prophet of god (peace be upon him) and whenever a revelation come into him by Wahy he send me to write it down} Source: Kitab Al-Masahif By Ibn Abi Dawud Al-sajistani Page.145

22 hours ago, andres said:

and after Muhammed died they were all collected

They were collected, and revised through qurra who had memorized by heart, hundreds and hundreds of qurra. Imagine that, not even a single letter could be missed [especially since it stresses on pronounciation depending on the dialect you speak]

22 hours ago, andres said:

All preserved as Gabriel had said, perfectly remembered by Muhammed.

And written down, AND memorized by hundreds of others.

22 hours ago, andres said:

According to tradition. Who´s tradition?

I posted my source in this comment.

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3 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

So you believe Jesus did not preach anything? nothing was sent from God to Jesus?

What Jesus preached you find  described in the New Testament. There is no indication whatever that God sent a Book to Jesus. The only Book Jesus had was the Hebrew Bible. It still exists and it is identical to the one Jesus and his fellow Jews read.

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19 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

In Islam we have the book the Injeel, this was revealed to Nabi Isa AS and this is the "good news" he preached.

Today we have a book called the Bible. It is not the Injeel. It was allegedly written by companions of Jesus and church scholars and unknown people. Even the Christians will admit, Jesus never oversaw or wrote any of the Bible. Its more akin to hadith than quran. The bible we have now has been created and edited and selected not by Jesus, but fallible beings long after Jesus era. They chose which accounts to include, and which to dismiss. 

The real question is what happened to the Injeel, It appears to have been mixed with the Bible and now we do not know where the Injeel starts and the bible stops. 

Try a red letter edition of the Gospels. There are many quotes, sermons, parables of Jesus there. The Gospels are often referred to as Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, but they are all actually titled as "The Gospel according to..."  Jesus never said, "Let's make a religion" let alone a book. 

22 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Although the Quran is unaltered, it's message is definitely altered

That is my main point. It doesn't matter as much what's written as what's taken. The Quran makes no statements about the past scriptures being corrupted. Reading one thing and teaching another is the largest form of corruption, but it does not alter the word. You guys are accusing God of being incapable of preserving His word. 

Neither Bible nor Quran gives any reason why Lut should have ever been considered a Prophet. 

22 hours ago, Arkon said:

1. Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?

God did (2 Samuel 24: 1)

Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1)

2. In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel?

Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)

One million, one hundred thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)

3. How many fighting men were found in Judah?

Five hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)

Four hundred and seventy thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)

4. God sent his prophet to threaten David with how many years of famine?

Back ten or more years ago there was a fellow who came here named Maimonides. Not sure if his posts are still here. He was a very knowledgeable Jew. This was back when we first saw the 101 contradictions list.

He said, you answer the NT questions, I'll handle the OT. He was about two weeks down the list when he messaged me. "Have you been reading my posts?" I said, of course. Then he said, "Looks like you're the only one." We kind of established that the Muslims at the time liked the list the way it was, they didn't really want to see answers.

One I vaguely recall one that had to do with one reporting the size of an army, then another reporting the same army as less. The guy who designed the contradiction neglected to mention there was a battle between the first report and the second. 

Please excuse me if I don't do a bunch of recall research for a copy/paste.

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1 minute ago, Son of Placid said:

Try a red letter edition of the Gospels. There are many quotes, sermons, parables of Jesus there. The Gospels are often referred to as Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, but they are all actually titled as "The Gospel according to..."  Jesus never said, "Let's make a religion" let alone a book. 

Sure, thats the Christian perspective.

However, Im saying that Jesus never saw the text of what we have today called the Bible and said, "yes thats the message I want to get across". 

My point is that Jesus did have a message he wanted to get across, and unfortunately we dont have a complete and untainted version of that.

 

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17 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

The Quran makes no statements about the past scriptures being corrupted. Reading one thing and teaching another is the largest form of corruption, but it does not alter the word. You guys are accusing God of being incapable of preserving His word. 

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. (Quran 2:79)

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12 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Neither Bible nor Quran gives any reason why Lut should have ever been considered a Prophet. 

Now you have a reason:

Quran 7:80

We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you?

God sent him, a messenger sent by God.

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On 4/11/2018 at 2:16 AM, Son of Placid said:

Muhammad came to remove the corruption from the religion, not the past scriptures,

Not the past scripture ?! So the past scripture has nothing wrong with it! Let’s see:

“You are the Christ [the Messiah], the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:16)

Compare it to:

Quran 6:101

[He is] Originator of the heavens and the earth. How could He have a son when He does not have a companion and He created all things? And He is, of all things, Knowing.

 

@Son of Placid that’s the proof of corruption of your gospels, lots of lies narrated by “unknown writers” about jesus.

@Son of Placid so, not the past scripture ?!

Edited by Arminmo

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12 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. (Quran 2:79)

Note it's in present tense, not past tense. This is a warning forward. 

12 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

Sure, thats the Christian perspective.

However, Im saying that Jesus never saw the text of what we have today called the Bible and said, "yes thats the message I want to get across". 

My point is that Jesus did have a message he wanted to get across, and unfortunately we dont have a complete and untainted version of that.

 

What makes it a Christian perspective? It was written before Christianity started.

8 minutes ago, Arminmo said:

Now you have a reason:

Quran 7:80

We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you?

God sent him, a messenger sent by God.

How is that reason? (sent) means (not in the original text), just added for the sake of opinion. What was Lut's big accomplishment?  He was the nephew of a Prophet.

 

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