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British Shi'ism Exposed | The Shirazis, "Imam" Taw

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On 3/21/2018 at 11:50 AM, SoRoUsH said:

Salam, 

The main problem with this video is that it presents a false dichotomy. 

It reflects the intellectal laziness of people. 

People tend to divide everything to black and white and not care for the vast gray area. 

In this video, one group/side was labelled evil, while the other group was labelled as righteous. However, these aren't the only two options available. 

Perhaps both group are deviants. Or perhaps each group is correct on some issues and incorrect on some other issues. 

At the end of the day, it is up to each individual to study the ahadith of Ahlul Bayt (as), distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable ahadith, then determine what Ahlul Bayt (as) have taught us. 

As much I liked this video for the information that it provided, I disliked it for simplifying the issue and paiting a false dischotomy. It only perpetuates the intellectual laziness of the Umma. 

Any call for fitna causing shia vs shia is a deviant call.

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20 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

I agreed with you about one aspect of this in my previous post, but i have to disagree with you that the chants do more harm than Tatbir. There is not a shadow of doubt Tatbir does significant more harm. Let us put aside the image problem also, one is a legitimate chant that might not be the best thing to say as it gets twisted, but still it is in line with Islam, whereas we argue Tatbir goes against much of what Islam stands for.Obviously i don't want to turn this thread into one about Tatbir.

While you theorize this, I can 100% confirm that in my 20 years of living in the US, only 1 person has asked me about tatbir and over 20 have asked me about the "Death to America" chants.

20 hours ago, Mohamed1993 said:

Man, where do you begin? Ammar is somehow linked to the Iraq war in this video and that's used to tarnish his reputation, but you know who else supported that war? Iran. Iran worked with the US on Afghanistan to overthrow the Taliban, and if you listen to this guy's videos on the Iran protests, he says 9/11 was a false-flag, which would make the invasion of Afghanistan that Iran worked with the US on even more illegal than it was (it was still illegal btw, because there were diplomatic alternatives that weren't exhausted and the security council never authorised the war). So, his argument falls apart because using the logic he uses, it would make Iran a tool of the CIA and MI6 too (which it obviously isn't). As muslims in the West, we need to understand that yes the UK/US governments are tyrannical in many ways, but we can't just sit and complain that won't change anything, we need to engage politically in every which way we can. I'll give you an example of my own case, I contacted my state senator to support a resolution which would end US involvement in Yemen and end military aid to Saudi because of the war in Yemen, I didn't expect a response, but not only did he respond, he voted for the resolution which unfortunately was blocked today because too many republican senators voted no. He even stated many constituents had expressed similar concerns. Politics is tough, and you don't end up getting the results you need but I firmly believe if we want to fight for causes that we deem important in the West, we need to be involved politically, develop a relationship with your senator, talk to them on issues, not just Middle East issues but also domestic issues, make your voice heard. You won't always get what you want but political engagement can enable you to build groups, put more pressure and attempt to sway opinion. Also, be sure to have discussions on issues, share stuff on social media, use twitter, get the word out to people, many will make the effort to support you if they know the truth and that'll only aid your cause. We can sit in mosques, say death to America and stuff, but what's that going to change? I think SAN recognises this too. I can understand why Iranians use it given their history, but we live in the West not in Iran, so our approach has to be different. There have been cases in history where political pressure has forced change like with the civil rights movement for example. It wasn't easy, it took years and years of struggle but it paid off. I think we have a few Shiite lobby groups in the US, but I think their focus is exclusively on gulf states and Pakistan. If any of you know any other groups apart from ShiaPAC, let me know because I've been looking up different groups with no real luck. 

Agreed. Ammar had become politically active in the US. I think there is another PAC called UMMAH or something. That is the one he was associated with.

15 hours ago, IbnSina said:

If they wish to know what it means, it is easy to find out. If they wish to make assumptions, even if there is a answer, it wont matter. This does not mean that denouncing oppressors, putting historical perspective and having clear basira regarding todays world/politics should be stopped.

Or should we stop being muslims because they think muslims hate them?

You entire statement is predicated on "If they wish to know what it means...". All they see on TV is some foreign country hates us. Very few people dig into why.

15 hours ago, IbnSina said:

Furthermore to compare tatbir to this slogan is really absurd in my opinion. Tatbir has no basis in islam, opposing yazeeds(la) in a clear matter does. Especially in this day and age were media twists everything, it is even more important, for our own youths at least, to be very clear.

Tatbir and "Death to America" were mentioned in the video. With regards to tatbir, they even mentioned how negative it portrays us. So my argument is simple. If we are stop everything that makes us looks bad, then let's stop with the chants first. And as I told IR, I can 100% confirm that in my 20 years of living in the US, only 1 person has asked me about tatbir and over 20 have asked me about the "Death to America" chants.

15 hours ago, IbnSina said:

Come one brother, is it really wise to use this kind of rhetoric?

This is the kind of rhetoric that will cause a shia-shia split. Instead of making these kind of extreme exaggeration regarding what WF followers think of shias who do not follow WF, why dont you ask the leader of WF what they think?

And it is not relevant what that one indo-pak shia WF follower told you in a discussion you had with him in your imam bargah, its better to go to the source and find out the truth of the matter if you have the opportunity and in this case you do.

To say or even hint at that WF followers might even consider non WF followers non shias is a GRAVE exaggeration that only causes hatred and fitna, dont be like that brother. 

I have nothing but respect for Ayatollah Khamenei. I was talking about the Islamic Pulse folks. I have dealt with some of them. That's all.

Lumping SAN in the same group as Shirazi, Al-Habib is ample evidence brother...

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BTW, there is nothing new here.

It has always been British policy to divide and conquer. So they have created these fake mullahs to divide us. I firmly believe as long as we stay true to our marajae and our azadari, they will never be able to divide us.

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Ammar is not pro Tatbir and has spoken against it if I am correct. Hi is not a Shirazi and is a Sistani if I am correct again or now probably does tabeed.

The Islamic Pulse people do not call non WF shias an non shias. 

Wilayat e Faqih is not just a theory anymore, it is being implemented in IRI.  It is our natural progression from a Marja to ruling a state. People will take time to understand this and that is fine. Not everyone is at the same level of understanding.

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3 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Ammar had become politically active in the US. I think there is another PAC called UMMAH or something. That is the one he was associated with.

Ammar Nakashwani even met Imran Khan, so yeah he does have a vision and therefore is trying to be politically active.

Also, in a lot of his lectures he encourages the youth to persue a degree in politics.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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11 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Ammar Nakashwani even met Imran Khan, so yeah he does have a vision and therefore is trying to be politically active.

Also, in a lot of his lectures he encourages the youth to persue a degree in politics.

It makes perfect sense tbh, how else do you change things? Burn flags and yell death to UK/US yet continue to live there? That won't lead you anywhere. If you're an Iranian living in Iran it's a diff story, but if you're a Shia in Britain or America, those places are your home, you should work to change them. 

Edited by Mohamed1993

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1 hour ago, Mohamed1993 said:

It makes perfect sense tbh, how else do you change things? Burn flags and yell death to UK/US yet continue to live there? That won't lead you anywhere. If you're an Iranian living in Iran it's a diff story, but if you're a Shia in Britain or America, those places are your home, you should work to change them. 

Exactly. At least in the US, there is no policy that can't be influenced via politics by lobbying. And Ammar was very active.

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Not sure where to start from. This Islamic pulse videos are Jokes (most of the time). Their precedent is weak and subsequent reasons flawed. It seems this guy (and his team) have the world view as black and white and not able to see the vast spectrum in the middle.

I, myself, sometimes feel that Shirazis have someone's backing but there's absolute zero evidence to believe they actually have. Only because they are against Wilayat al-faqih and pro-tatbir and curse out loud, it is immature to label them 'agents'. About tawhidi, everyone knows. The 'research team' did a good job reaching out to Qom and not thinking about Najaf. The conclusion that not believing or praising Sayed Ali Khamenei or having a different thought process makes someone Anti-Iran is dumb and shows narrow vision.

These guys criticized Sayed Ammar Nakhshawani because he touched on sensitive feelings of their 'brothers in Islam' and called terrorists, a terrorist but 'Marg bar Amrika' (I know what it means) is fine because Amrika is Iran's enemy. Enemies of Iran > Enemies of Ahlulbait (ams) ?

How these guys criticize those not in favour of shia-sunni unity but themselves makes such videos to fracture shia-shia unity.

Strange, why none of the members noticed the last part of the video. Comparing Sayed Ali Khamenei to Imam Ali (a.s.)? Really?. 1000s of Pious scholars combined cannot be compared to the dust of the feet of Imam Ali (a.s.).

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On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 3:15 AM, shiaman14 said:

Salaam.

As someone who knows Ammar personally, I think he was mis-characterized in the video. He has always said that there is a difference between abusing someone and re-telling history. Abu Bakr did in fact have his henchmen go out and kill people who refused to pay zakat. Ammar did not curse or swear at them - he re-told the story.

Secondly, the concept of wali-e-faqih is a theory because not all marajae subscribe to it in Iran and Iraq. There is a famous video of Ayatollah Basheer Al-Najafi saying he is wali-e-faqih as well.

I would definitely not characterize Ammar as being similar to Yassir Al-Habib, Allahyari, Tawhidi and Shirazi.

Allah is best judge. 

But when me too came across the lectures of Ammar Nakashwani, I suspected him .

His presentation and core aim of  lectures gives feeling that he intends to hurt others. Now weather he does it deliberately or just otherwise it happens. Allah knows best . 

I feel his lectures are not serving the true shia islam rather it has negative effect and negative image. 

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On 3/20/2018 at 6:54 PM, Ashvazdanghe said:

If we look from the point of view the people of these countries ,they love their country but because these slogans are very general it needs explanation & unfortunately most of them don’t receive these explanations which leads to mistakes.

@Ashvazdanghe @IbnSina @shiasoldier786

Not only are they really general but "marg bar" doesn't translate in English, the closest thing to it is "Death to". 

Again,  most Americans don't know history well and all they see is a bunch of angry people in some third world country screaming death to their homes, friends and family.

It's not mind-blowing, it makes from their perspective, what's mind-blowing is Ibn Sina thinking that the average American would know what "marg bar amerika" means or bother to read Iranian history like shiasoldier suggested.  

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Bismshe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum 

When 9/11 happened the number one book purchased after the attacks was the Holy Quran.  People were curious to know what was inside the book of what the terrorists professed they were following Islam.  People who read and understood some converted, some knew they were doing it based on a political cause, and others remained bigoted and hateful.  

As for Iran, if Iranians want to continue with their slogan, they have every right to.  They know their history and they do not want imperialists to force them to follow a certain political line.  If Americans want to stay ignorant and not bother finding out why Iranians chant marg bar, that's not the Iranians problem.  Libraries exist and so does the internet.  If you want to know ask and stop crying the "why do they hate us" line.  You don't want to read subscribe on YouTube The Real News Network

@Sumerian wanted to share with you these two videos below, not about the topic I'm discussing.  Since you opened a thread about bin salman visiting Iraq.

 

 Let them continue watching Hollywood movies from the very beginning of the Revolution where they portrayed them as barbarians with the movie  "Not without My Daughter" and other junk films to persuade them as Iranians are evil.  

List of anti-Iranian movies.

http://www.imdb.com/list/ls000052578/

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah 

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2 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

These guys criticized Sayed Ammar Nakhshawani because he touched on sensitive feelings of their 'brothers in Islam' and called terrorists, a terrorist but 'Marg bar Amrika' (I know what it means) is fine because Amrika is Iran's enemy. Enemies of Iran > Enemies of Ahlulbait (ams) ?

How these guys criticize those not in favour of shia-sunni unity but themselves makes such videos to fracture shia-shia unity.

Here is the thing. When Imam Ali defeated Ayesha in the battle of Jamal, what did he do? He had the chance to chop off her head, but did he do that? 

What Iran are doing right now is simply following the path of Imam Ali when it comes to shia-sunni unity and looking at the wider picture. I am just as furious as you are about the injustices that the ahlul bayt faced, but Imam Ali showed us the path to follow. If we consider him our leader, surely we should be following the same path

When it comes to intra-shia unity, most of the abuse has been coming from the side opposed to Iran. Have you heard what Mujtaba Shirazi, Yasir Habib & Tawhidi are saying about the leadership? On the other hand, Sadeq Shirazi is even allowed to preach in Iran. So which side is really pro unity?

Edited by shiasoldier786

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1 hour ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

@Ashvazdanghe @IbnSina @shiasoldier786

Not only are they really general but "marg bar" doesn't translate in English, the closest thing to it is "Death to". 

Again,  most Americans don't know history well and all they see is a bunch of angry people in some third world country screaming death to their homes, friends and family.

It's not mind-blowing, it makes from their perspective, what's mind-blowing is Ibn Sina thinking that the average American would know what "marg bar amerika" means or bother to read Iranian history like shiasoldier suggested.  

First they'll ask that Iranians stop saying 'marg bar amerika'. Than they ll say Iran should stop developing its missiles. Than they ll ask Iran to stop helping the oppressed in the world. So where exactly do you draw the line? 

You think if Iranians stop the slogan the media will change its portrayal of Iran as the enemy. They will simply move on the next thing. 'Why are Iranians deveoping ICBM's'? 'Why are they supporting Hezbollah'? We can never please these people, and we all know it.

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3 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

I, myself, sometimes feel that Shirazis have someone's backing but there's absolute zero evidence to believe they actually have. Only because they are against Wilayat al-faqih and pro-tatbir and curse out loud, it is immature to label them 'agents'. About tawhidi, everyone knows. The 'research team' did a good job reaching out to Qom and not thinking about Najaf. The conclusion that not believing or praising Sayed Ali Khamenei or having a different thought process makes someone Anti-Iran is dumb and shows narrow vision.

While there is certainly a point to be made about sometimes going into far too much of an extreme against Shirazis or cults that form in his name - whether he is associated to them or not- it is undeniable there is a lot of Dhalalah coming from that crowd.

Yasser al-Habib, the son in law of Sadiq Shirazi, has not just 'cursed', by the way. He has belittled and maligned Ulema, called certain companions homosexuals and gone into depth about male-fluid (i can't repeat) which have been translated into Indonesian and spread in Indonesia  - a country hostile to Shias already. It has made the rounds globally and has caused incredible carnage in various forms. His videos celebrating the death-day of wives of the Prophet (saw) and vitriolic lectures without any sense of rationality at best, and clutching at sources the consensus is not even upon, is ludicrous. Furthermore, he , like Saudi-Arabia, is not just someone who makes 'academic' criticism against Iran, but wholesale has launched in propaganda par on par with Saudi-Arabia to abuse, demonise, malign , twist and distort.

The same applies to Tawhidi , who is and was beloved by the Media - in his early days at least- for writing various articles against Iran, calling them oppressive, tyrants, the cause of much blood and carnage and the like - all mirroring the propaganda parroted by Saudi Arabia. Furthermore, he promotes the same pathetic, weak and unacceptable claim the wife of the Prophet (saw) was promiscuous before marrying him, and after marrying him and was a prolific adulteress.  Put aside the support of the Shirazi group for abusing and for self-mutilation rituals on men, women and children, the issue is far deeper.

Let's not have a straw man here and put across the idea these are sane, respectable individuals who just differ on jurisprudence and make fair academic criticisms. The problem is much deeper and the argument against them far more compelling. 

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3 hours ago, Laayla said:

Bismshe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum 

When 9/11 happened the number one book purchased after the attacks was the Holy Quran.  People were curious to know what was inside the book of what the terrorists professed they were following Islam.  People who read and understood some converted, some knew they were doing it based on a political cause, and others remained bigoted and hateful.  

As for Iran, if Iranians want to continue with their slogan, they have every right to.  They know their history and they do not want imperialists to force them to follow a certain political line.  If Americans want to stay ignorant and not bother finding out why Iranians chant marg bar, that's not the Iranians problem.  Libraries exist and so does the internet.  If you want to know ask and stop crying the "why do they hate us" line.  You don't want to read subscribe on YouTube The Real News Network

 Let them continue watching Hollywood movies from the very beginning of the Revolution where they portrayed them as barbarians with the movie  "Not without My Daughter" and other junk films to persuade them as Iranians are evil.  

List of anti-Iranian movies.

http://www.imdb.com/list/ls000052578/

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah 

Salaam alai kum,

Absolutely Iran has the right to their slogan or any slogan but at the same time, let's not act surprised that the same slogan is used negatively across America.

And there is plenty of ignorance on both sides. One such example is of the friends we made on our trip to Iran who were surprised that my wife can go to the supermarket by herself during the day or night and not get harassed, molested, etc.

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1 hour ago, shiasoldier786 said:

First they'll ask that Iranians stop saying 'marg bar amerika'. Than they ll say Iran should stop developing its missiles. Than they ll ask Iran to stop helping the oppressed in the world. So where exactly do you draw the line? 

You think if Iranians stop the slogan the media will change its portrayal of Iran as the enemy. They will simply move on the next thing. 'Why are Iranians deveoping ICBM's'? 'Why are they supporting Hezbollah'? We can never please these people, and we all know it.

If the average American  bothered to read, they would know the answer. I am not saying Iran should stop the slogans but "marg bar Amerika" is definitely worsening the situation. Why be surprised? Our education has been weakening and dumbed down the past 40  years.

 Iran shouldn't draw lines but understand the American people and adjust in such a way doesn't cause misunderstanding. If talking to ignorant, you would adjust your language, so you  can be understood clearly But arguing with ignorant people is a losing game,  as Ali (as) said. 

I agree with @shiaman14 there is a lot of ignorance on both sides.

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On 21/03/2018 at 10:17 PM, shiaman14 said:

While you theorize this, I can 100% confirm that in my 20 years of living in the US, only 1 person has asked me about tatbir and over 20 have asked me about the "Death to America" chants.

 

:salam:

I doubt any Muslim would question you about the anti USA chants, but I know the answer when it would come to tatbir.

Which unity is the priority ? Unity amongst Muslims -which according to the holy Qur'an are all brothers- or unity with the rest of the world ?

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4 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

It's not mind-blowing, it makes from their perspective, what's mind-blowing is Ibn Sina thinking that the average American would know what "marg bar amerika" means or bother to read Iranian history like shiasoldier suggested.

Yeah i guess its mind blowing to expect american people not to be ignorant.

When it comes to the right and wrong of this slogan, I put my trust in learnt scholars before I put my trust in non scholars.

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12 minutes ago, realizm said:

:salam:

I doubt any Muslim would question you about the anti USA chants, but I know the answer when it would come to tatbir.

Which unity is the priority ? Unity amongst Muslims -which according to the holy Qur'an are all brothers- or unity with the rest of the world ?

Sunni Muslims (not all of course) hate us even if there was no tatbir so this is a really arrow-minded question. Surely if unity was just as important to the Sunnis they would accept us with or without tatbir.

Hate promoting hate is surely not an Islamic answer either.

We are digressing from the topic of how the British divide and conquer.

Edited by shiaman14

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49 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Sunni Muslims (not all of course) hate us even if there was no tatbir so this is a really arrow-minded question. Surely if unity was just as important to the Sunnis they would accept us with or without tatbir.

Hate promoting hate is surely not an Islamic answer either.

We are digressing from the topic of how the British divide and conquer.

There are several reasons for them hating us, mainly : cursing their figures, mutah and self mutilation. Once these are put aside, we can have dialogue. Did not find a solution regarding mutah though lol.

I thought this was the whole point of the discussion, i.e. on what basis can Britain have us divided ?

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21 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Yeah i guess its mind blowing to expect american people not to be ignorant.

It's mind blowingly naive to think so, I had a classmate Tuesday going on about how great America is , how it was stable and it was one of the greatest democracies, etc. It was very cringy to listen to.

And I looked at him and said "Excuse me", he looked at me and I just said "No, that is not true."  There are people in my generation who still think like this; We are essentially brainwashed, to deny it is craziness.

32 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

When it comes to the right and wrong of this slogan, I put my trust in learnt scholars before I put my trust in non scholars.

Even when there is no Quranic  or hadith basis for such slogans, which are purely political artifacts of the Iranian Revolution and have nothing to do with Islam? 

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Whether or not you are pro WF or support or don't support the Islamic Republic of Iran, please don't be naive. That is all I am asking. The main threat right now to US Hegemony over the Middle East is WF and system of Marjaa'. This is well documented and well know. WF is the system right now with the largest number of followers, so it makes perfect sense that this system would be targeted by forces which seek to divide muslims and particularly divide Shias and make them fight each other. 

If you accept this premise, an obvious premise to me, then you should refrain from doing things and saying things which will help this cause (of dividing the Shia). Imam Khamenei himself says in his Resalat that if you disagree with the system of WF on intellectual grounds, and you have an intellectual basis for this, then that is perfectly fine and not haram or a crime or anything, but he is asking those who disagree with him to not cause civil unrest and strife which would do damage to the lives and wealth of the people. There are many supporters of Sayyid Shirazi in the area where I live. I have not ever said one negative thing about them, nor have I said anything negative about Sayyid Ammar. , although I disagree with them. If we could keep the discussion civil and refrain from getting into arguments which lead to bad consequences, then that in itself is a slap in the face to the Tagut and enemies of Islam and I think Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and Imam Ali(a.s) would be please with us in that case. Salam. 

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On 3/20/2018 at 8:41 PM, Qa'im said:

There are many valid criticisms of the people he attacks in the video, but judging from his videos, he seems to have a two-dimensional view of the world: pro-Iran and anti-Iran.

For one, Allahyari is not even in the Shirazi camp, nor is he in Britain, but his rough stance on Sunnis and Iran was apparently enough to be lumped in. Secondly, Nakshawani is not in the same camp, but it's okay to take a dig at his "status and wealth" because he criticized the shaykhayn at a Shi`i majlis, said wilayatul faqih is a theory (theories are not bad things by the way, and Sayyid al-Khoei and Sayyid Sistani have critiqued it), and posed with Tawhidi.

Again, constructive criticism should be encouraged and some of these individuals are not worth defending. But this is just a superficial attack on people due to politics.

I agree; this is political. Anyone is welcome to disagree but the arguments in this video are fallacious and it sounds like a conspiracy theory. That isn't to say that his premises or conclusions are wrong or that I don't agree with them but I don't find this speaker eloquent with the organization of his arguments. I'm not well-versed with this topic but I cannot believe him when he proposes illogical arguments. 

I watched the whole video but from the first five minutes, his main argument, I suppose, is that these personalities promote the Takfiri/Wahabbi representation of Shia Islam because 

  1. they were probably the reason for people's radicalization and the formation of ISIS
    • he would probably also want to kill someone who slanders the people he reveres
    • both ISIS and these personalities are funded by the UK
  2. they curse the scholars he agrees with 
    • the scholars he reveres spoke against them 
    • the scholars he reveres support unity with Sunnis but they
      • slander personalities Sunnis revere 
      • rather have unity with the Queen of England than with Sunnis
  3. they praise the Queen of England
    • The Queen committed heinous crimes

His arguments are based on his conclusion being accurate while he attempts to prove its validity. He attempts to appeal to emotion by instilling fear and hate for these personalities by verbally abusing them and showcasing clips with the intention to discredit everything they say. He dismisses their ideas by proposing hidden motives for which there is insufficient evidence. Many arguments are probabilistic depending on how he feels about the issue and events that are correlational, he made causational. He takes things out of context and attributes these occurrences to his already-assumed conclusion. He equates ideologies or personalities with Islam and disbelief in or rejection of them is equivalent to disbelief in and rejection of Islam. 

I won't write out why I think this is political or a conspiracy theory but I will say his arguments don't follow. 

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