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Is Jehovah Witness A Mushrik?

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27 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

And lo! there is a party of them who distort the Scripture with their tongues, that ye may think that what they say is from the Scripture, when it is not from the Scripture. And they say: It is from Allah, when it is not from Allah; and they speak a lie concerning Allah knowingly. (78)

 

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/3:78

 

It does not say the Rabbis and the Priests have corrupted their holy scritures. It does not even say the scriptures are corrupted.  It says "a party distort the scriptures with their tongues".

If correct translated we do not know if this party existed within Jews or within Christians. What they speak is a distorted version of the Torah or the Gospels, unknown which.  Seemingly there are parties among both Christians and Jews that do not distort the scriptures when they speak. So the Gospels and Torah still were intact i the 7th century. And the 7th century Bible is identical to the onewe have today. 

Among the many suras in the Quran, there is not one that says: "Beware of the Jewish and Christian scriptures, they have been corrupted"

Is it not remarkable that Muslims say the Bible is destorted when the Quran does not? 

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7 minutes ago, andres said:

oes not say the Rabbis and the Priests have corrupted their holy scritures. It does not even say the scriptures are corrupted.  It says "a party distort the scriptures with their tongues".

When a part of something corrupted you can’t exclude other parts ,it is like spread of poison hugs in food it is very hard to find safe & not infected food 

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57 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

When a part of something corrupted you can’t exclude other parts ,it is like spread of poison hugs in food it is very hard to find safe & not infected food 

But the Quran does not say a part of the Bible is corrupted. It says some,( not everybody,) say something is written in a scripture that is not written in that scripture.

Some claim things are written in the Quran that is not written in the Quran. This does not corrupt the Quran itself.

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1 hour ago, andres said:

Some claim things are written in the Quran that is not written in the Quran. This does not corrupt the Quran itself.

It is a false claim 

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6 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

It is a false claim 

It is also a false claim that the Quran say the Bible or the Torah have been corrupted. What the Quran says in the surah you refered to, is that some from of an unnamed religion or party falsly claims things that not exist in the Bible.

It is remarkable that the Quran never say something similar as: "Beware of the Gospels and the Torah, for it has been corrupted"

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On 28/03/2018 at 4:17 AM, Arminmo said:

shirk (claiming divinity for beings other than God)

if they don’t say Holy Spirit and son is god, they are not mushrik.

That's only true if you took the word literally.
 

If the general population where you are in considers them Christians, then you can treat them like they are.

If they don't, then no. They are like any other non-kitabists. 

 

We don't actually have anything in our traditions that defines Christians exclusively as Catholics.

Edited by Mark Enlightment

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5 hours ago, andres said:

But the Quran does not say a part of the Bible is corrupted. It says some,( not everybody,) say something is written in a scripture that is not written in that scripture.

 

The Quran doesn't directly say that. But our traditions do.

From my personal studies about this subject, it seems that Jesus's Gospel has been completely lost and replaced by 4 books (i.e. NT gospels) with no connection to the original Gospel other than trying to imitate it. While the OT has been corrupted/edited but the whole thing wasn't fully lost.  

 

Also, we don't actually say that Jesus's Gospel or Moses' Torah is actually corrupted, we claim that the copies that common people have are. 

Edited by Mark Enlightment

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5 minutes ago, Mark Enlightment said:

The Quran doesn't. But our traditions do.

From my personal studies about this subject, it seems that Jesus's Gospel has been completely lost and replaced by 4 books (i.e. NT gospels) with no connection to the original Gospel other than trying to imitate it. While the OT has been corrupted/edited but the whole thing wasn't fully lost.  

 

Also, we don't actually say that Jesus's Gospel or Moses' Torah is actually corrupted, we claim that the copies that common people have are. 

Traditions that old as Moses are not historically reliable. Scientists say Jews did not exist in Moses times, they did not come from Egypt but the Jewish tribe evolved from the Kanaaneans that lived in Palestine 3.000 years ago. Being close related to the Kanaaneans and sharing the same Gods, the Bible actually tell us that Jews worshipped these Gods. The God El, his wife Ashera, the war god Baal and some others. 

 

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9 minutes ago, andres said:

Scientists say Jews did not exist in Moses times

I don't trust such claims that goes against the whole history. Also, define what do you exactly mean by a 'scientist'. 

10 minutes ago, andres said:

Being close related to the Kanaaneans and sharing the same Gods, the Bible actually tell us that Jews worshipped these Gods. The God El, his wife Ashera, the war god Baal and some others. 

1

Yeh that's possible. No objections. 

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2 hours ago, Mark Enlightment said:

I don't trust such claims that goes against the whole history. Also, define what do you exactly mean by a 'scientist'. 

 

.The Quran has not much historical material on Moses, but you can find Moses whole lifestory in the Bible. In the second, third, fourth and fifth book counting from the beginning of the Bible you find Moses fascinating story. The 4 books may be the size of the entire Quran, but there are some big parts you can jump over, laws and such stuff. A short version you will ind on wikipedia. Scientists do not belive it is historically correct, genarally describing it as myths. By scientists i mean professional archeologists, historians and Biblical scholars.

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44 minutes ago, andres said:

.The Quran has not much historical material on Moses, but you can find Moses whole lifestory in the Bible. In the second, third, fourth and fifth book counting from the beginning of the Bible you find Moses fascinating story. The 4 books may be the size of the entire Quran, but there are some big parts you can jump over, laws and such stuff. A short version you will ind on wikipedia.

3

OK, it sounds a little weird when you compare the Quran to the O/NT from the perspective of their information size.

Quran is not the only source we use, almost all self-identified Muslims accept our prophet's traditions. Those protestant-like Quranists aren't really noticeable outside Wikipedia. 

Thank you, I've read it.

 

52 minutes ago, andres said:

Scientists do not belive it is historically correct, genarally describing it as myths. By scientists i mean professional archeologists, historians and Biblical scholars.

I would like to see their proofs.

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13 minutes ago, Mark Enlightment said:

OK, it sounds a little weird when you compare the Quran to the O/NT from the perspective of their information size.

 

The Bblical books were written during 700 years (600BC-100AD) which  may be the main reason for the Bible being so much thicker than the Quran.

 

17 minutes ago, Mark Enlightment said:

 

Quran is not the only source we use, almost all self-identified Muslims accept our prophet's traditions. Those protestant-like Quranists aren't really noticeable outside Wikipedia. 

Thank you, I've read it.

I would like to see their proofs.

 Why have you not read the views of the Biblical scolars, archeologists and historians concerning how they believe the Bible  came to be? They do not always come to the same conclusion, but their argumentation based on enourmous knowledge is interesting.  This link may give a little insight into how critical scholars work  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmtL4zH7A7Y 

Catherine Hayes, Yale University has a very interesting lecture series about the OT   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo-YL-lv3RY   Only it is very long.  27x50minutes. I have seen them all. You can find similar analysies about the NT on youtube. There is so much to choose between.. 

 

 

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10 hours ago, andres said:

It is remarkable that the Quran never say something similar as: "Beware of the Gospels and the Torah, for it has been corrupted"

Yes Quran has said  your scriptures are corrupted:

Quran 2:79

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

Edited by Arminmo

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On 3/29/2018 at 2:31 AM, andres said:

You cherrypick from a Gospel you believe is corrupted.

What’s wrong with cherry picking? ( as if it has some kind of a consistency written  by a known writer!)

still truth has remained in some of the verses.

Edited by Arminmo

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23 minutes ago, Arminmo said:

Yes Quran has said  your scriptures are corrupted:

Quran 2:79

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

Which scripture? One of the Jewish or one of the Christian? There are quite a few to choose between. Maybe one of Muhammeds own revelations? No. Probably none of them. Sounds more like Muhammed speaks about persons trying to sell someting they wrote themselves cheap. Must have been short scriptures, now forgotten and gone.

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33 minutes ago, andres said:

Which scripture? One of the Jewish or one of the Christian? There are quite a few to choose between. Maybe one of Muhammeds own revelations? No. Probably none of them. Sounds more like Muhammed speaks about persons trying to sell someting they wrote themselves cheap. Must have been short scriptures, now forgotten and gone.

Another verse:

Quran 2:75

“Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?”

historians (Wikipedia book of Leviticus, Genesis,... ) clearly are saying Torah was re-written by Rabbis a millennium years after Prophet Moses.

contents within Gospels also can not be verified. ( written by unknown writers)

 

so that verse in Quran , is clearly talking about your books.

Edited by Arminmo

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39 minutes ago, andres said:

Which scripture?

By historian evidences that exists, In this verse the word “those” is talking about both OT and NT. (It’s in plural, so not just Torah)

Quran 3:187

And [mention, O Muhammad], when Allah took a covenant from “those” who were given the Scripture, [saying], "You must make it clear to the people and not conceal it." But they threw it away behind their backs and exchanged it for a small price. And wretched is that which they purchased.

Edited by Arminmo

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11 hours ago, andres said:

It is also a false claim that the Quran say the Bible or the Torah have been corrupted.

Quran 6:91

And they did not appraise Allah with true appraisal when they said, "Allah did not reveal to a human being anything." Say, "Who revealed the Scripture that Moses brought as light and guidance to the people? You [Jews] make it into pages, disclosing [some of] it and concealing much. And you were taught that which you knew not - neither you nor your fathers." Say, "Allah [revealed it]." Then leave them in their [empty] discourse, amusing themselves.

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10 hours ago, Arminmo said:

Another verse:

Quran 2:75

“Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?”

historians (Wikipedia book of Leviticus, Genesis,... ) clearly are saying Torah was re-written by Rabbis a millennium years after Prophet Moses.

contents within Gospels also can not be verified. ( written by unknown writers)

 

so that verse in Quran , is clearly talking about your books.

Check this video. 13 minutes long.

 

This short youtube video tells you what almost all historians agree on. The Tora was completed in the 6th century, using material from 4 different sources. Sources from at least 400 years after Moses. Before the 6th century BC there was no Torah. 1.200 years before Muhammed the Torah was copied and started to spread all over.

Quran 2:75 say a party of them distort the Torah, not that everybody did.  Who were these distorters? When did they live?  How did they distort? Could they possibly have burned all copies of the 5 Torah scriptures replacing them with corrupted ones. Note that according to the Quran, not all Jews were "distorters". Is it not more likely that Muhammed felt that "the party", a party contemporary with him, distorted the written word with their tongues (as another sura says), but that all copies of the Torah still were intact in Synagogues everywhere? And they still are.

 

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10 hours ago, Arminmo said:

.contents within Gospels also can not be verified. ( written by unknown writers)

Same with the Quran. Was Gabriel telling words from God, did Muhammed remember it correct, what was the names of all those that wrote down or remembered the text. And how can we be certain that Uthman chose to save the correct Quran when he burned all erroneous ones?  

There are always many questions when it comes to texts as old as the Quran and the Torah.  

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13 minutes ago, andres said:

Same with the Quran. Was Gabriel telling words from God, did Muhammed remember it correct, what was the names of all those that wrote down or remembered the text. And how can we be certain that Uthman chose to save the correct Quran when he burned all erroneous ones?  

There are always many questions when it comes to texts as old as the Quran and the Torah.  

It is revealed in Quran that prophet will not forget or make mistakes that is completely accepted by all shias & if uthman would keep that texts all of them had same text only difference between them was about way of writings of them because at that time Arabs didnt follow same way of writings 

&thinking about fallibility of Profet (pbu) in sunni view has Israelite source which causes doubts in true text of Quran &prophet actions and sayings.

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15 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

It is revealed in Quran that prophet will not forget or make mistakes that is completely accepted by all shias & if uthman would keep that texts all of them had same text only difference between them was about way of writings of them because at that time Arabs didnt follow same way of writings 

&thinking about fallibility of Profet (pbu) in sunni view has Israelite source which causes doubts in true text of Quran &prophet actions and sayings.

If the Quran is not the infallible word of God, it could be wrong about the prophets. And many other things. Being a Muslim you believe the Torah is not always correct. 

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One more point about the Torah. Quran 5:46-47 says

"And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous. And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous."

 

We know that the Torah Jesus read was identical to the one Jews have today.  No corruption of the Torah according to the Quran.  

 

 

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34 minutes ago, andres said:

If the Quran is not the infallible word of God, it could be wrong about the prophets. And many other things. Being a Muslim you believe the Torah is not always correct. 

If it was not infallible maybe your comment would be true but it is infallible, Torah at first that revealed was correct & in narrations about Imam Mahdi (aj) said that it is hided & when he reappears he show it beside Ark of covenant ,rod of Moses &ring of Solomon to Jews to prove himself to them

This staff is the trust of Imamate . Imam Muhammad Baqir (AS) said about it: "The Moses' rod was a memorial to Adam (AS), and it was Shu'ib, and after that, came Shu'ib to Moses and is now with us; I have seen him nearby, and that was green It was like the day it was cut from the tree. When you speak with it, it speaks and is provided for Qa'im al-Muhammad (peace be upon him) and will do what Moses has done. [5]Imam Sadiq (AS) also said: Moses' crutch is with us. [6]

Kuleiny, al-Kafi, 1381 AH, v.1, p. 231

http://fa.wikishia.net/view/عصای_موسی 

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Ark_of_the_Covenant

 

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Tablets_of_Moses_(a)

 

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Category:Trusts_of_Imamate

 

Kitab Al-Kafi Book # 4: The Book about the people who possess Divine Authority

Chapter 37: Sacred objects of the Prophets transferred to the Imams (a.s.) 

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Salma ibn al-Khattab from 'Abdallah ibn Muhammad from Mani' ibn al-Hajjaj al-Basri from Majashi' from Mu'alla from Muhammad ibn al-Fayd from abu Ja'far (a.s.) who has said the following.
 



"The staff of Moses belonged to Adam. It was passed to Shu'ayb then to Moses ibn Tmran.  
Now it is with us. I have just, moments before, seen it. It is green just as being picked from its  
tree. It speaks if it is induced to do so. It is prepared for the one who will rise to establish the  
kingdom of Allah on earth. He will use it in the same way as Moses had done. It frightens and  
devours things made to trick people and it accomplishes whatever commands it receives. If it  
would proceed for a task it devours the treacherous materials. It opens into two branches; one  
on earth and the other towards the ceiling with an opening of forty yards in between and  
devours the deceptive materials with its tongue."  
 

Share... Chapter: 37, Hadith: 616, Number: 1 
 

 

Kitab Al-Kafi Book # 4: The Book about the people who possess Divine Authority

Chapter 38: The Armaments and Sacred Items belonging to the Holy Prophet (s.a.) that transferred to the Imam (a.s.) 

A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Tsa from Ali ibn al- Hakam from Mu'awiya ibn Wahab from Sa'id al-Samman who has said the following.
 

"I was  
in the presence of abu 'Abdallah (a.s.) when two people from the Zaydia sect came to him.  
They asked, "Is there with you an Imam obedience to whom is obligatory?" The narrator has  
said that the Imams (a.s.) said, "No, there no one as such." They then said, "Reliable people  
have informed us about you that you issue fatwas and that you affirm and speak of it. We can  
point out what their names are. They are very pious alert people. They are such that can not  
be rejected. The Imams (a.s.) became angry and said, "I have not ordered them to say so."  
When the two men notice anger from the face of The Imams (a.s.) they left."  

The Imams (a.s.) then asked me, "Do you know these two?" I said, "Yes, I know them. They  
are from our Suq (shopping center). They belong to the Zaydia sect and they think that the  
sword of the Holy Prophet (s.a.) is with 'Abdallah ibn al-Hassan." The Imams (a.s.) said,  
"They have lied, may Allah condemn them. I swear by Allah, 'Abdallah ibn al-Hassan has not  
seen it with his own eyes, not even of his eyes has seen it. Even his father had seen it except if  
he might have seen it with Imam

 

With me is the sword of the Messenger of Allah, with me is the flag of the Messenger, his  
coat of arms, his Lamam (pennon) and his helmet. If they are truthful let them say what kind  
of mark does the coat of arms of the Messenger of Allah has? With me is the flag of the  
Messenger of Allah, the victorious. With me is the Staff of Moses. With me is the ring of  
Solomon son of David. With me is tray on Moses
 used to offer offerings. With me is the  
name that whenever the Messenger of Allah would place it between the Muslims and pagans  
no arrow from the pagans would reach the Muslims. With me is the similar object that angels  
brought." Perhaps The Imams (a.s.) has hinted to the following verse. 'Their Prophet further  
told them, "As the evidence of his authority, he will bring to you the Ark which will be a  
comfort to you from your Lord and a legacy of the household of Moses and Aaron. It will be  
carried by the angels. This is the evidence for you if you have faith.' (2:248)  
 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.fourshiabooks.com/hadith/al-kafi/4/38/1

 

http://fourshiabooks.com/results/Moses

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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