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How does someone who's dead pray for you?

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Salaam brothers and sisters,

I am a new Shia and am always asked questions by my family (who are for the most part okay with my conversion from Sunni to Shia). I was asked "Asking others to pray for you is recommended and encouraged. The issue is how can someone who is dead (eg. Rasullallah PBUH, the Imams, Wali) pray for us?". What evidence in the Quran and Sunnah of Muhammad (PBUH) and the Ahlul Bayt that one who is dead can make prayers for us?

Authentic Scholarly sources are best.

Thanks 

Edited by Haji 2003

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Salam all Ahlulbayt (as) even prophet (pbu) are martyred so all of them count as alive persons & because of their high rank toward Allah they can pray for us

Shia belief in Twassul p1

https://youtu.be/usGhqRcYSbQ

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2 hours ago, alihaydar said:

Salaam brothers and sisters,

I am a new Shia and am always asked questions by my family (who are for the most part okay with my conversion from Sunni to Shia). I was asked "Asking others to pray for you is recommended and encouraged. The issue is how can someone who is dead (eg. Rasullallah PBUH, the Imams, Wali) pray for us?". What evidence in the Quran and Sunnah of Muhammad (PBUH) and the Ahlul Bayt that one who is dead can make prayers for us?

Authentic Scholarly sources are best.

Thanks 

It's actually a common Sunni belief that the Messenger of Allah (saw) is not merely 'dead' in his grave,  but Allah, the Almighty has given him the ability to pray for his Ummah.

"The Prophet, sall-Allahu `alayhi wa sallam, said: "My life is a great good for you, you will relate about me and it will be related to you, and my death is a great good for you, your actions will be exhibited to me, and if I see good­ness I will praise Allah, and if I see evil I will ask forgiveness of Him for you."

Narrated from Ibn Mas'ud by al-Bazzar in his Musnad (1:397) with a sound chain as stated by al-Suyuti in Manahil al-Safa (p. 31 #8) and al-Khasa'is al-Kubra (2:281), al-Haythami (9:24 #91), and al-'Iraqi in Tarh al-Tathrib (3:297) 

 

 

The same Hadith exists in our books, and with an authentic 'Hasan' chain:

Imam Jaffer as-Sadiq (as) narrat that the Messenger of Allah (saw) has said: " In my life there is good for you, and in my death there is good for you. He (the imam) then said that people asked, 'We know about your life, O Messenger of Allah (saw) , but what is for us in your death? He, (the Messenger of Allah (saw)  said: ' About what is in my life, Allah, most Majestic, most Glorious , has said " ...Allah would not to punish them when you are among them..." (8:33) and what is in my death for you is that your deeds will be presented and before me and i will ask forgiveness for you" 

[al-Kafi, V8, H361 English Version, translated by M.Sarwar]. The chain is Hasan, as per Mirat-al-Uqul. 

 

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Just as advice, the Prophet or Aimmah can not grant us our prayers. They can not forgive our sins and they can not 'grant us children' or 'grant us health' or 'grant us wealth'. The power to grant is with Allah, and Allah alone, and no-one else. Nothing happens save his will, permission and power, and particularly pertaining to what occurs  in our destiny and what prayers get accepted. It is Allah who is granting these prayers. What he does this through is merely a conduit, but the true granter is him, and him alone. 

So don't take my post as justification for what some people do today, when their car crashes shouting 'Ya Ali', and never calling upon the one Ali (as) himself tells us to call on in reliable traditions.  If someone wants to ask the Prophet (saw) to pray on their behalf, they better make that explicit in their words. If they are asking him directly for these things, then they are upon error.

Ali ibn Abi Talib  (as) has been attributed with a letter,: 

Nahjul Balagha, Letter 31

"Do not seek help or protection from anybody but Allah. Reserve your prayers, your requests, your solicitations, your supplications, and your entreaties to Him and Him alone because to grant, to give, to confer and to bestow, as well as to withhold, to deprive, to refuse, and to debar, lies only in His Power. Ask as much of His Blessings and seek as much of His Guidance as you can."

 

Edited by Intellectual Resistance

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This is something I disagree with.   Like Intellectual Resistance said, when you're seeking help from God, or looking for strength or something, you should be saying "Ya Ali" or something to that effect.  Imam Ali cannot give you strength or answer your prayers.

The common justificiation for such actions among Shia is that you are asking the Imams, who are considered closer to God than you, to essentially ask God on your behalf, so to speak.  I believe they call it intercession on your behalf, or something like that.  Again, I disagree with this, because like you said, these people are dead.  Or course some will argue that they aren't dead, but whatever.

I really don't think it's a common belief among the Sunnis either, but I'm not very familiar with all their books and stuff.  But in my conversations with them, the general consensus is that there is only 1 human being that is currently alive but not on Earth, and that is Jesus.  

I'm of the general opinion that seeking anything from anyone other than Allah, or even invoking any name other than Allah's, when you want something is very misguided, at best, and blasphemous, at worst. 

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25 minutes ago, coldcow said:

This is something I disagree with.   Like Intellectual Resistance said, when you're seeking help from God, or looking for strength or something, you should be saying "Ya Ali" or something to that effect.  Imam Ali cannot give you strength or answer your prayers.

The common justificiation for such actions among Shia is that you are asking the Imams, who are considered closer to God than you, to essentially ask God on your behalf, so to speak.  I believe they call it intercession on your behalf, or something like that.  Again, I disagree with this, because like you said, these people are dead.  Or course some will argue that they aren't dead, but whatever.

I really don't think it's a common belief among the Sunnis either, but I'm not very familiar with all their books and stuff.  But in my conversations with them, the general consensus is that there is only 1 human being that is currently alive but not on Earth, and that is Jesus.  

I'm of the general opinion that seeking anything from anyone other than Allah, or even invoking any name other than Allah's, when you want something is very misguided, at best, and blasphemous, at worst. 

When someone want to enter a room/ to meet somebody, should he ask permission from the room guard/caretaker/representative or ignore the presence of the guard/caretaker/representative ?

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16 hours ago, alihaydar said:

Salaam brothers and sisters,

I am a new Shia and am always asked questions by my family (who are for the most part okay with my conversion from Sunni to Shia). I was asked "Asking others to pray for you is recommended and encouraged. The issue is how can someone who is dead (eg. Rasullallah PBUH, the Imams, Wali) pray for us?". What evidence in the Quran and Sunnah of Muhammad (PBUH) and the Ahlul Bayt that one who is dead can make prayers for us?

Authentic Scholarly sources are best.

Thanks 

Some Muslims associate calling upon the Prophet or the imams as shirk (heresy). They argue that a person should not ask any person for help. However, we see that if a person is faced with a problem in life, often, this person will logically and naturally call upon a nearby person for help. If a person was about to drown and he called out for help, then would his seeking help from someone other than Allah make him a mushrik (associating one with Allah)?

By the same reasoning, calling upon the Prophet or the imams is not shirk. The argument that they cannot be called upon because they are dead is also invalid, because the Qur’an falsifies the notion of martyrs being classified as dead,

“Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they have provision.”5

“And say not of those who are killed in the way of Allah, ‘They are dead.’ Nay, they are living, but you perceive it not.”6

If an ordinary Muslim was martyred (for the cause of Allah) is considered to be alive, then how can the Prophet and his family, who were not only martyrs, but whose rank also surpassed that of all other human beings, be considered dead? Calling upon the Prophet and his family does not negate the fact that Allah is the source of help and rescue in this universe. However, because these people are the closest to Him, and they enjoy a special status with Him, then calling upon them means calling upon Allah for the sake of those whom He loves.

  • 1. Noble Qur’an

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On 3/19/2018 at 4:19 PM, alihaydar said:

Salaam brothers and sisters,

I am a new Shia and am always asked questions by my family (who are for the most part okay with my conversion from Sunni to Shia). I was asked "Asking others to pray for you is recommended and encouraged. The issue is how can someone who is dead (eg. Rasullallah PBUH, the Imams, Wali) pray for us?". What evidence in the Quran and Sunnah of Muhammad (PBUH) and the Ahlul Bayt that one who is dead can make prayers for us?

Authentic Scholarly sources are best.

Thanks 

Salaam brother,

Let's start with the Prophet (saw). Every single Muslim confirms every day in salah that "There IS no God but Allah" and "Muhammad IS his Prophet". The fact that we say "IS" instead of "WAS" is sufficient proof about the Prophet (saw). He is dead but he is still mawla over us.

Secondly, after the demise of the Prophet (saw), the early sahaba used the Prophet's (saw) drinking cup and cloak for tawassul. So surely if tawassul was good enough for them, it should be good enough for us.

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16 hours ago, myouvial said:

When someone want to enter a room/ to meet somebody, should he ask permission from the room guard/caretaker/representative or ignore the presence of the guard/caretaker/representative ?

the example you are giving is asking help from someone who is present, physically, mentally, in all senses of the word present. what you are trying to justify is asking from someone in their absence. that is shirk if done to other than Allah.

5 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

Some Muslims associate calling upon the Prophet or the imams as shirk (heresy). They argue that a person should not ask any person for help. However, we see that if a person is faced with a problem in life, often, this person will logically and naturally call upon a nearby person for help. If a person was about to drown and he called out for help, then would his seeking help from someone other than Allah make him a mushrik (associating one with Allah)?

By the same reasoning, calling upon the Prophet or the imams is not shirk. The argument that they cannot be called upon because they are dead is also invalid, because the Qur’an falsifies the notion of martyrs being classified as dead,

“Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they have provision.”5

“And say not of those who are killed in the way of Allah, ‘They are dead.’ Nay, they are living, but you perceive it not.”6

If an ordinary Muslim was martyred (for the cause of Allah) is considered to be alive, then how can the Prophet and his family, who were not only martyrs, but whose rank also surpassed that of all other human beings, be considered dead? Calling upon the Prophet and his family does not negate the fact that Allah is the source of help and rescue in this universe. However, because these people are the closest to Him, and they enjoy a special status with Him, then calling upon them means calling upon Allah for the sake of those whom He loves.

  • 1. Noble Qur’an

1. if you are using the above quoted ayahs to justify the shuhada being alive in the literal sense, with their lord, then you need to see the arabic again. the correct meaning is not a literal one(as the word used would then be ma'a not 'inda), but rather a figurative one. either to show respect to them and not call them dead. or to say that in the figurative eyes of Allah(try not to call this blasphemy as this is just a figure of speech) they are alive. i say this because the ayah says not to think of them as dead. if they were truly alive, the ayah would have said they are alive. period. 

2. " naturally call upon a nearby person for help" you yourself have answered your qualms about this issue. sunnis and others who call the act in question shirk have no issue if you ask a nearby person for help. 

3. the mushrikeen of makkah also believed the same nearness and closeness about the idols. that the idols were closer to Allah and hence would ask the idols to grant them stuff in a manner very similar to how many shias today say "ya Ali madad".

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When someone want to enter a room/ to meet somebody, should he ask permission from the room guard/caretaker/representative or ignore the presence of the guard/caretaker/representative ?

the example you are giving is asking help from someone who is present, physically, mentally, in all senses of the word present. what you are trying to justify is asking from someone in their absence. that is shirk if done to other than Allah.

 

===>

The bold one : Is that true when asking from someone in their absence is considered shirk ?

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4 hours ago, myouvial said:

 

When someone want to enter a room/ to meet somebody, should he ask permission from the room guard/caretaker/representative or ignore the presence of the guard/caretaker/representative ?

the example you are giving is asking help from someone who is present, physically, mentally, in all senses of the word present. what you are trying to justify is asking from someone in their absence. that is shirk if done to other than Allah.

 

===>

The bold one : Is that true when asking from someone in their absence is considered shirk ?

Yes. Because if someone is not present, and you are still asking them, you believe that that person/being is all hearing. Nobody is all hearing except Allah. 

Besides, your conclusion and deduction is in and of itself incorrect. Taking a simple case and applying it to a general case. 

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On 3/20/2018 at 1:19 AM, alihaydar said:

The issue is how can someone who is dead (eg. Rasullallah PBUH, the Imams, Wali) pray for us?".

Recite the verse 154 of chapter 2

"Do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they're) alive, but you do not perceive" 

 

On 3/20/2018 at 1:19 AM, alihaydar said:

What evidence in the Quran and Sunnah of Muhammad (PBUH) and the Ahlul Bayt that one who is dead can make prayers for us?

Recite verse 7 of chapter 40

الَّذِينَ يَحْمِلُونَ الْعَرْشَ وَمَنْ حَوْلَهُ يُسَبِّحُونَ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّهِمْ وَيُؤْمِنُونَ بِهِ وَيَسْتَغْفِرُونَ لِلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا رَبَّنَا وَسِعْتَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ رَحْمَةً وَعِلْمًا فَاغْفِرْ لِلَّذِينَ تَابُوا وَاتَّبَعُوا سَبِيلَكَ وَقِهِمْ عَذَابَ الْجَحِيمِ
"Those who bear the power and those around Him celebrate the praise of their Lord and believe in Him and ask protection for those who believe: Our Lord! Thou embracest all things in mercy and knowledge, therefore grant protection to those who turn (to Thee) and follow Thy way, and save them from the punishment of hell"

 

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18 hours ago, just a muslim said:

3. the mushrikeen of makkah also believed the same nearness and closeness about the idols. that the idols were closer to Allah and hence would ask the idols to grant them stuff in a manner very similar to how many shias today say "ya Ali madad".

 You were directed to read, "Concept" . You can define what this Shirk is and discuss the self made idol issue. 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235055789-i-am-only-trying-shia-islam-only-for-6-months/?page=4&tab=comments#comment-3124120

The issue of help-/madad. let's  get something straight, even if it was allowed for you , you wouldn't find any, since most needed help themselves so, let's not open up that problem.

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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It is kufr & fisq to understand or to say Prophet & Aimma e Tahireen (asws) as dead. 

Here are the clear verses of Quran:


وَلَا تَقُولُوا لِمَنْ يُقْتَلُ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ أَمْوَاتٌ ۚ بَلْ أَحْيَاءٌ وَلَٰكِنْ لَا تَشْعُرُونَ
وَلاَ تَحْسَبَنَّ الَّذِينَ قُتِلُواْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ أَمْوَاتًا بَلْ أَحْيَاء عِندَ رَبِّهِمْ يُرْزَقُونَ

Don't even dare to say or don't even dare to think. 
Otherwise, it will expose the disease of heart either in the form of "kufr" or in the form of  "Fisq".

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On 3/19/2018 at 4:19 PM, alihaydar said:

Salaam brothers and sisters,

I am a new Shia and am always asked questions by my family (who are for the most part okay with my conversion from Sunni to Shia). I was asked "Asking others to pray for you is recommended and encouraged. The issue is how can someone who is dead (eg. Rasullallah PBUH, the Imams, Wali) pray for us?". What evidence in the Quran and Sunnah of Muhammad (PBUH) and the Ahlul Bayt that one who is dead can make prayers for us?

Authentic Scholarly sources are best.

Thanks 

Here,

Death is not Annihilation of Man

Quran 9:105

 

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22 hours ago, just a muslim said:

the example you are giving is asking help from someone who is present, physically, mentally, in all senses of the word present. what you are trying to justify is asking from someone in their absence. that is shirk if done to other than Allah.

1. if you are using the above quoted ayahs to justify the shuhada being alive in the literal sense, with their lord, then you need to see the arabic again. the correct meaning is not a literal one(as the word used would then be ma'a not 'inda), but rather a figurative one. either to show respect to them and not call them dead. or to say that in the figurative eyes of Allah(try not to call this blasphemy as this is just a figure of speech) they are alive. i say this because the ayah says not to think of them as dead. if they were truly alive, the ayah would have said they are alive. period. 

2. " naturally call upon a nearby person for help" you yourself have answered your qualms about this issue. sunnis and others who call the act in question shirk have no issue if you ask a nearby person for help. 

3. the mushrikeen of makkah also believed the same nearness and closeness about the idols. that the idols were closer to Allah and hence would ask the idols to grant them stuff in a manner very similar to how many shias today say "ya Ali madad".

 

[Shakir 3:169] And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord;
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 3:169]

Those slain in the way of Allah are not dead. They are alive, getting sustenance from their Lord. The unending life or continuous existence of the martyrs has been fully discussed in the commentary of al Baqarah: 154 and 155.

Death is not the destruction of the ruh (spirit). It applies to all human beings, but as said in verse 163 of this surah "of diverse ranks they shall be with Allah", therefore, the martyrs who are nearest to Him and occupy highest positions are in direct communion with their Lord. Their active consciousness perceives that which is happening in this world even after their departure from here. They can reach us and we can have access to them. Through the grace of Allah, on account of their direct relationship with Him, they can carry into effect that which they desire by His permission. As mentioned in al Baqarah: 154 and 155, they are the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt.

Also, Arabs were used to call those idol "God". We are not calling Imams and Prophets god. We all know they are the servant of Allah. 

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10 hours ago, just a muslim said:

Yes. Because if someone is not present, and you are still asking them, you believe that that person/being is all hearing. Nobody is all hearing except Allah. 

Besides, your conclusion and deduction is in and of itself incorrect. Taking a simple case and applying it to a general case. 

Calling upon other than Allah Shirk!?

Shias are commited of Shirk (associate partners with Allah) when they say “Ya Mohamed,” “Ya Ali,” …etc.*
*Of coarse Shirk or what is know as Polytheism is haram.
Wahabies & Sunnies usually go through the exact same sequence when it comes to the issue of intercession. The Discussion about this matter usually starts by the Sunnies/Wahabies saying:" If anyone asks other than Allah it is shirk. For example the Quran says: "Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help." Quran[1:5]"
Such claims can be refuted so easily by indicating that these people have taken this verse out of context, and let me show you how. For example, if your friend has asked you to help him move furniture from one place to another, will your friend be committing shirk? He is asking you for help isn’t he? Why doesn't he ask Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى to help him/her straight away !? Why does he call upon you for your help!? According to the ideology such people have, then such a person asking others for help is also Shirk!
As for the claim that "err, it is ok to ask the living for help because they can help you, but you can’t ask the dead for help." Backing up their selves with Verses from the Holy Quran such as :" Verily! thou canst not make the dead to hear, nor canst thou make the deaf to hear the call when they have turned to flee. " Quran[27:80] they also claim that the Dead can't hear so for that reason it is Shirk to call upon the Prophet(pbuh&hf) and the Holy Imams(as) though this understanding of theirs is contradictory to the Holy Quran itself and their Narrations books.
First Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى in the Holy Quran says:
"And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive." Quran[2:154]
Taking this verse into perspective, Prophet Mohammad(pbuh&hf) and the Holy Imams(as) are not dead, for they have been slain in the way of Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى and thus are not to be called dead because they are not.
Secondly, According to Saheeh Bukhari (Volume 2, Book 23, Number 453), This verse means that the dead now know that the prophet used to say the truth.
Moreover, there are many narrations in Sunnie books that prove that the dead can hear. For Example, in Saheeh Bukhari (Volume 2, Book 23, Number 452) and (Volume 5, Book 59, Number 360) the Prophet(pbuh&hf) told the companions that the dead hear better than us. 
*Read these Hadeeths Online from the links provided above.
And this is when the Sunnies usually stop. They do not grasp how deep Tawheed(Monotheism) is in the school of Ahlul-bayt(as). Shias say that anything can be done only with Allah’s well. For example, if someone believes that water will quench his thirst independent from Allah, this is shirk. If someone believes that the doctor can cure him independent from Allah, this is shirk. Shias say that everything happens with God’s well. And praying to any other than Allah is Shirk.
There are many evidences to prove that intercession is permitted and actually encouraged.

1. Qurananic Evidence. 
A."O ye who believe! Be mindful of your duty to Allah, and seek the way of approach unto Him, and strive in His way in order that ye may succeed." Quran[5:35]. 
Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is telling us to mind our duty and find means of approaching him. Allah can be approached through good deeds like prayer, fasting, charity, and through the dearest to Allah. And who is closer to Allah than the best of creation, Prophet Muhammad(pbuh&hf) and his Household(as). 
B.“We did not send a messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah’s permission; and had they, when they had done injustice to themselves, come to you and asked Allah’s forgiveness; and the messenger (also) had asked pardon for them, surely, they would have found Allah oft-returning, merciful” Quran[4:64]
Here it has been made clear that the presence of the Prophet of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has been a way for the people to use as a means of approach in asking forgiveness.

2. Logical Evidence.
Imagine someone who wants to work in a company, but he does not think that he is qualified to get the job. It happens that the President of the company is the father of his friend. Now, his chances of being hired in that company are higher if he applies to the position through his friend than if he applied by himself. Then, it is up to the president of the company to accept that person’s application or not. 
This is a good parable that explains what intercession is. Many of us might have sins that hinder the dua’, and we can have better chances of the dua’ being accepted by Allah if we ask him by the sake of those whom he loves. 

3. Hadith Evidence. 
A.Narrated Anas: Whenever there was drought, ‘Umar bin Al-Khattab used to ask Allah for rain through Al-‘Abbas bin ‘Abdul Muttalib, saying, “ O Allah! We used to request our Prophet to ask You for rain, and You would give us. Now we request the uncle of our Prophet to ask You for rain, so give us rain.” And they would be given rain.” (Volume 5, Book 57, Number 59)
B. Al-Bukhari narrated in his book “ Al-Adab Al-Mofrad” the following narration that has also been authenticated by Ibn Taimiah in his book “ Al-Kalim Al Taib”: Narrated Al-Haytham bin Khanash: he said: “ we were with Abdullah bin ‘Umar when his leg fill numb, so a man told him: “ mention the dearest man to you,” so he said, “ Ya Mohamed” and he got better.
This has also been narrated by:
Ibn Al-Sni in “ ‘Amal Al-Youm wa Al-Layla”
Al-Nawawi in his book “ Al-Athkar”
Alhafith Shams Al-Din bin Al-Jazary in his book “ Al-Husn Al-Hasin”
Prophet Musa(as) and Prophet Muhammad(pbuh&hf) both prayed for helpers to ease their burdens
Right from the beginning of his mission Musa(as) prayed as follows:
“Musa said: O Allah! assign me a Vizier from my family, (that is) my brother Haroon. Add to my strength through him, and make him share my task: that we may celebrate thy praise without stint... (Allah) said: “We granted your requests, O Musa” Holy Quran[20:29-36]
Now here Musa(as) is asking for help, not from Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى alone but from his brother as well. He is NOT turning to Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى exclusively for help he is asking help from another human as well, is this an act of shirk?
Interestingly Suyuti in his commentary of the above verse sites the following tradition:
“When this verse descended, The Prophet(pbuh&hf) was on a mountain, straight after it’s descent, The Prophet(pbuh&hf) prayed to Allah, ‘Oh Allah! Through my brother Ali, ease the burden on my back’, and Allah accepted this prayer”
Tafsir Durre Manthur, by Jaladin Suyuti, Vol 4 p 295
Why is Rasulullah(pbuh&hf) not asking Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى for help? Would Al Khider not assert that calling on others for help is Shirk? Yet here Rasulullah (s) is asking Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى that Ali (as) be made his helper. This being the case is it not Sunnah to seek help from Imam Ali (as)? Whose words should we deem to be more important, those of all Khider or those of Rasulullah (s)?
The Bani Israil turned to Prophet Musa(as) for help
In Surah Araf we read as follows:
“We divided them into twelve tribes or nations. We directed Moses by inspiration, when his (thirsty) people asked him for water: "Strike the rock with thy staff": out of it there gushed forth twelve springs: Each group knew its own place for water. We gave them the shade of clouds, and sent down to them manna and quails, (saying): "Eat of the good things We have provided for you": (but they rebelled); to Us they did no harm, but they harmed their own souls" Holy Quran[7:160].
Here the tribe of Bani Israil were thirsty, rather than seek Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى for sustenance they turned to Hadhrath Musa(as) to answer their prayers. Now if seeking the aid of another is Shirk then surely Musa(as) would have condemned them and told them to pray to Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى, but he did not. Here the 'rod' acted as a Wasila, Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى could have sent down rain from the skies, and yet Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى instructed Musa(as) to strike the rod on the rock. The Bani Israil turned to Musa(as) and it was through him(as) that Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى answered their prayers.
Prophet Sulayman(as) sought the help of the people not Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى
And then we have these verses in Surah Naml:
"He said (to his own men): "Ye chiefs! which of you can bring me her throne before they come to me in submission?"
Said an 'Ifrit, of the Jinns: "I will bring it to thee before thou rise from thy council: indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may be trusted."
Said one who had knowledge of the Book: "I will bring it to thee within the twinkling of an eye!" Then when (Solomon) saw it placed firmly before him, he said: "This is by the Grace of my Lord!- to test me whether I am grateful or ungrateful! and if any is grateful, truly his gratitude is (a gain) for his own soul; but if any is ungrateful, truly my Lord is Free of all Needs, Supreme in Honour !" Holy Quran[27:38-40]
So here we learn:
1. Prophet Sulayman(as) asked for the throne of Bilkis to be brought to him 
2. He(as) did not pray to Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى he asked for the help from his supporters
3. A Servant with partial knowledge of the Book was able to bring the throne within the twinkling of an eye.
Now clearly a Prophet(as) has more power than an ordinary human being and yet he asked for help from one of his companions, if seeking the help from other than Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is shirk, then why did Prophet Sulayman(as) seek the help from am inferior subject? Would you logic not deem this to be an act of shirk?
Now, if a Prophet(as) can seek the assistance of an individual with a partial knowledge of the Book why can’t I seek help from Rasulullah(pbuh&hf) who was the talking Qur’an, or from Maula Ali(as) who declared that he had a complete knowledge of the Book? In this regards we have the testimony of the great Sahaba Ibn Mas'ud said:
"The Holy Quran has outward and inward meanings, and Ali Ibn Abi Talib has the knowledge of both."
Hilyatul Awliyaa, by Abu Nu'aym, v1, p65
In addition contemplate these words of Imam Ali(as):
“ask me about the Book of Allah, because there is no Ayah but that I know whether it was revealed at night or in daytime, on the plain or in the mountain”
History of the Khailfa’s who took the right way by Jalaladeen Suyuti, English translation by Abdassamad Clarke, p 194

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7 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

Calling upon other than Allah Shirk!?

Shias are commited of Shirk (associate partners with Allah) when they say “Ya Mohamed,” “Ya Ali,” …etc.*
*Of coarse Shirk or what is know as Polytheism is haram.
Wahabies & Sunnies usually go through the exact same sequence when it comes to the issue of intercession. The Discussion about this matter usually starts by the Sunnies/Wahabies saying:" If anyone asks other than Allah it is shirk. For example the Quran says: "Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help." Quran[1:5]"
Such claims can be refuted so easily by indicating that these people have taken this verse out of context, and let me show you how. For example, if your friend has asked you to help him move furniture from one place to another, will your friend be committing shirk? He is asking you for help isn’t he? Why doesn't he ask Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى to help him/her straight away !? Why does he call upon you for your help!? According to the ideology such people have, then such a person asking others for help is also Shirk!
As for the claim that "err, it is ok to ask the living for help because they can help you, but you can’t ask the dead for help." Backing up their selves with Verses from the Holy Quran such as :" Verily! thou canst not make the dead to hear, nor canst thou make the deaf to hear the call when they have turned to flee. " Quran[27:80] they also claim that the Dead can't hear so for that reason it is Shirk to call upon the Prophet(pbuh&hf) and the Holy Imams(as) though this understanding of theirs is contradictory to the Holy Quran itself and their Narrations books.
First Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى in the Holy Quran says:
"And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive." Quran[2:154]
Taking this verse into perspective, Prophet Mohammad(pbuh&hf) and the Holy Imams(as) are not dead, for they have been slain in the way of Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى and thus are not to be called dead because they are not.
Secondly, According to Saheeh Bukhari (Volume 2, Book 23, Number 453), This verse means that the dead now know that the prophet used to say the truth.
Moreover, there are many narrations in Sunnie books that prove that the dead can hear. For Example, in Saheeh Bukhari (Volume 2, Book 23, Number 452) and (Volume 5, Book 59, Number 360) the Prophet(pbuh&hf) told the companions that the dead hear better than us. 
*Read these Hadeeths Online from the links provided above.
And this is when the Sunnies usually stop. They do not grasp how deep Tawheed(Monotheism) is in the school of Ahlul-bayt(as). Shias say that anything can be done only with Allah’s well. For example, if someone believes that water will quench his thirst independent from Allah, this is shirk. If someone believes that the doctor can cure him independent from Allah, this is shirk. Shias say that everything happens with God’s well. And praying to any other than Allah is Shirk.
There are many evidences to prove that intercession is permitted and actually encouraged.

1. Qurananic Evidence. 
A."O ye who believe! Be mindful of your duty to Allah, and seek the way of approach unto Him, and strive in His way in order that ye may succeed." Quran[5:35]. 
Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is telling us to mind our duty and find means of approaching him. Allah can be approached through good deeds like prayer, fasting, charity, and through the dearest to Allah. And who is closer to Allah than the best of creation, Prophet Muhammad(pbuh&hf) and his Household(as). 
B.“We did not send a messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah’s permission; and had they, when they had done injustice to themselves, come to you and asked Allah’s forgiveness; and the messenger (also) had asked pardon for them, surely, they would have found Allah oft-returning, merciful” Quran[4:64]
Here it has been made clear that the presence of the Prophet of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has been a way for the people to use as a means of approach in asking forgiveness.

2. Logical Evidence.
Imagine someone who wants to work in a company, but he does not think that he is qualified to get the job. It happens that the President of the company is the father of his friend. Now, his chances of being hired in that company are higher if he applies to the position through his friend than if he applied by himself. Then, it is up to the president of the company to accept that person’s application or not. 
This is a good parable that explains what intercession is. Many of us might have sins that hinder the dua’, and we can have better chances of the dua’ being accepted by Allah if we ask him by the sake of those whom he loves. 

3. Hadith Evidence. 
A.Narrated Anas: Whenever there was drought, ‘Umar bin Al-Khattab used to ask Allah for rain through Al-‘Abbas bin ‘Abdul Muttalib, saying, “ O Allah! We used to request our Prophet to ask You for rain, and You would give us. Now we request the uncle of our Prophet to ask You for rain, so give us rain.” And they would be given rain.” (Volume 5, Book 57, Number 59)
B. Al-Bukhari narrated in his book “ Al-Adab Al-Mofrad” the following narration that has also been authenticated by Ibn Taimiah in his book “ Al-Kalim Al Taib”: Narrated Al-Haytham bin Khanash: he said: “ we were with Abdullah bin ‘Umar when his leg fill numb, so a man told him: “ mention the dearest man to you,” so he said, “ Ya Mohamed” and he got better.
This has also been narrated by:
Ibn Al-Sni in “ ‘Amal Al-Youm wa Al-Layla”
Al-Nawawi in his book “ Al-Athkar”
Alhafith Shams Al-Din bin Al-Jazary in his book “ Al-Husn Al-Hasin”
Prophet Musa(as) and Prophet Muhammad(pbuh&hf) both prayed for helpers to ease their burdens
Right from the beginning of his mission Musa(as) prayed as follows:
“Musa said: O Allah! assign me a Vizier from my family, (that is) my brother Haroon. Add to my strength through him, and make him share my task: that we may celebrate thy praise without stint... (Allah) said: “We granted your requests, O Musa” Holy Quran[20:29-36]
Now here Musa(as) is asking for help, not from Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى alone but from his brother as well. He is NOT turning to Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى exclusively for help he is asking help from another human as well, is this an act of shirk?
Interestingly Suyuti in his commentary of the above verse sites the following tradition:
“When this verse descended, The Prophet(pbuh&hf) was on a mountain, straight after it’s descent, The Prophet(pbuh&hf) prayed to Allah, ‘Oh Allah! Through my brother Ali, ease the burden on my back’, and Allah accepted this prayer”
Tafsir Durre Manthur, by Jaladin Suyuti, Vol 4 p 295
Why is Rasulullah(pbuh&hf) not asking Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى for help? Would Al Khider not assert that calling on others for help is Shirk? Yet here Rasulullah (s) is asking Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى that Ali (as) be made his helper. This being the case is it not Sunnah to seek help from Imam Ali (as)? Whose words should we deem to be more important, those of all Khider or those of Rasulullah (s)?
The Bani Israil turned to Prophet Musa(as) for help
In Surah Araf we read as follows:
“We divided them into twelve tribes or nations. We directed Moses by inspiration, when his (thirsty) people asked him for water: "Strike the rock with thy staff": out of it there gushed forth twelve springs: Each group knew its own place for water. We gave them the shade of clouds, and sent down to them manna and quails, (saying): "Eat of the good things We have provided for you": (but they rebelled); to Us they did no harm, but they harmed their own souls" Holy Quran[7:160].
Here the tribe of Bani Israil were thirsty, rather than seek Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى for sustenance they turned to Hadhrath Musa(as) to answer their prayers. Now if seeking the aid of another is Shirk then surely Musa(as) would have condemned them and told them to pray to Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى, but he did not. Here the 'rod' acted as a Wasila, Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى could have sent down rain from the skies, and yet Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى instructed Musa(as) to strike the rod on the rock. The Bani Israil turned to Musa(as) and it was through him(as) that Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى answered their prayers.
Prophet Sulayman(as) sought the help of the people not Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى
And then we have these verses in Surah Naml:
"He said (to his own men): "Ye chiefs! which of you can bring me her throne before they come to me in submission?"
Said an 'Ifrit, of the Jinns: "I will bring it to thee before thou rise from thy council: indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may be trusted."
Said one who had knowledge of the Book: "I will bring it to thee within the twinkling of an eye!" Then when (Solomon) saw it placed firmly before him, he said: "This is by the Grace of my Lord!- to test me whether I am grateful or ungrateful! and if any is grateful, truly his gratitude is (a gain) for his own soul; but if any is ungrateful, truly my Lord is Free of all Needs, Supreme in Honour !" Holy Quran[27:38-40]
So here we learn:
1. Prophet Sulayman(as) asked for the throne of Bilkis to be brought to him 
2. He(as) did not pray to Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى he asked for the help from his supporters
3. A Servant with partial knowledge of the Book was able to bring the throne within the twinkling of an eye.
Now clearly a Prophet(as) has more power than an ordinary human being and yet he asked for help from one of his companions, if seeking the help from other than Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is shirk, then why did Prophet Sulayman(as) seek the help from am inferior subject? Would you logic not deem this to be an act of shirk?
Now, if a Prophet(as) can seek the assistance of an individual with a partial knowledge of the Book why can’t I seek help from Rasulullah(pbuh&hf) who was the talking Qur’an, or from Maula Ali(as) who declared that he had a complete knowledge of the Book? In this regards we have the testimony of the great Sahaba Ibn Mas'ud said:
"The Holy Quran has outward and inward meanings, and Ali Ibn Abi Talib has the knowledge of both."
Hilyatul Awliyaa, by Abu Nu'aym, v1, p65
In addition contemplate these words of Imam Ali(as):
“ask me about the Book of Allah, because there is no Ayah but that I know whether it was revealed at night or in daytime, on the plain or in the mountain”
History of the Khailfa’s who took the right way by Jalaladeen Suyuti, English translation by Abdassamad Clarke, p 194

Thanks for info.

I am not thoroughly read your post yet.

The problem lies on giving remark someone as 'shirk' with certain criterion (from my point of view, this giving remark of 'shirk' is similar as making someone as kafir/kufr ===> so temporarily i conclude that this is the main root of takfirism, self-bomber, beheading other human).

Now, let me see the technique of making remark :

It is said when someone asking other than Allah is similar to ask  other as Allah SWT (because He is the all and only most helper and He is the only and all hearing, while others is actually not).

Now if i change the bold word above (i.e. asking) with other verb for example obeying, prioritizing, helping, etc, then more door of investigation will be opened up.

I remember how Nabi Muhammad SAW went hijrah to Madina, he SAW ask Ali to stay and sleep at his SAW bed, now tell me if Nabi Muhammad SAW committed shirk because of asking the power other than Allah SAW.

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On 3/19/2018 at 4:19 PM, alihaydar said:

Salaam brothers and sisters,

I am a new Shia and am always asked questions by my family (who are for the most part okay with my conversion from Sunni to Shia). I was asked "Asking others to pray for you is recommended and encouraged. The issue is how can someone who is dead (eg. Rasullallah PBUH, the Imams, Wali) pray for us?". What evidence in the Quran and Sunnah of Muhammad (PBUH) and the Ahlul Bayt that one who is dead can make prayers for us?

Authentic Scholarly sources are best.

Thanks 

Salaam brother

It takes a logical process to come to this conclusion:

One. As we know, other people's Duas do affect you. It is a real effect. Now if said person is Imam al-Mursalin, Khatim al-anbiya, Muhammad al Mustafa s.a.w.s.... then naturally this is an even greater effect.

Two. The Prophet is not alive in this world but there is another world. Another life. And we know for a fact that the Prophet can hear us. All Muslims - regardless of mazhab - believes that when we send salaams to the Prophet at the end of salaat, he hears it.

So if it is OK to ask for Duas, and if the Prophet can hear us... what is stopping us from seeking his Duas?

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11 hours ago, myouvial said:

Thanks for info.

I am not thoroughly read your post yet.

The problem lies on giving remark someone as 'shirk' with certain criterion (from my point of view, this giving remark of 'shirk' is similar as making someone as kafir/kufr ===> so temporarily i conclude that this is the main root of takfirism, self-bomber, beheading other human).

Now, let me see the technique of making remark :

It is said when someone asking other than Allah is similar to ask  other as Allah SWT (because He is the all and only most helper and He is the only and all hearing, while others is actually not).

Now if i change the bold word above (i.e. asking) with other verb for example obeying, prioritizing, helping, etc, then more door of investigation will be opened up.

I remember how Nabi Muhammad SAW went hijrah to Madina, he SAW ask Ali to stay and sleep at his SAW bed, now tell me if Nabi Muhammad SAW committed shirk because of asking the power other than Allah SAW.

Did i say calling upon prophets and imams are shirk? Read my post again. Also, self bombers and blowing up places is not from us. You won't see a lot of shia suicide bombers. This is from sunnis, wahabis, and salafies. They belive on 72 virgins and blow themselves. 

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On 3/19/2018 at 10:01 PM, myouvial said:

When someone want to enter a room/ to meet somebody, should he ask permission from the room guard/caretaker/representative or ignore the presence of the guard/caretaker/representative ?

This doesn't make sense.  First off, you're talking to a physical person versus talking to  someone who is dead and not around.  Are you assuming they have God-like abilities to hear you wherever you are in the world?

Secondly, are the imams declared as being able to act as caretakers of Heaven?  Or guards of Allah's metaphorical ear?

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15 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

Did i say calling upon prophets and imams are shirk? Read my post again. Also, self bombers and blowing up places is not from us. You won't see a lot of shia suicide bombers. This is from sunnis, wahabis, and salafies. They belive on 72 virgins and blow themselves. 

Do not worry, i am not referring to you. I refer to @just a Muslim. Sorry.

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3 hours ago, coldcow said:

This doesn't make sense.  First off, you're talking to a physical person versus talking to  someone who is dead and not around.  Are you assuming they have God-like abilities to hear you wherever you are in the world?

Secondly, are the imams declared as being able to act as caretakers of Heaven?  Or guards of Allah's metaphorical ear?

I cannot/amnot able to answer you. And i am not assuming anything, but only to seek similar instance with good manner. That is all. Your knowledge about religion is far more exceeding me.

So this is my comment with my present knowledge :

Do you do shalat ?

Have your read 'assalamu'alaika ayyuhannabiyyu warahmatullahii wabarakatuh' (while nabi Muhammad is not present) ?

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