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Can God repent? What is the point of us being here if God already knows the future? Christians always disagreed on this. The Bible seemingly also does

So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” (Genesis 6:7)

God is no mere human! He doesn't tell lies or change his mind. God always keeps his promises. (Numbers 23:19)

As far as I have understood, (all?) Muslims agree Allah cannot change his mind, but here are two examples from the Quran that seemingly says Allaah can change his mind.  Is this an issue that also divide Muslims?

We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent? (Quran 2:106)

And so We have made you ˹believers˺ an upright community so that you may be witnesses over humanity and that the Messenger may be a witness over you. We assigned your former direction of prayer only to distinguish those who would remain faithful to the Messenger from those who would lose faith. It was certainly a difficult test except for those ˹rightly˺ guided by Allah. And Allah would never discount your ˹previous acts of˺ faith. Surely Allah is Ever Gracious and Most Merciful to humanity. (Quran 2:143)

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Islam

Main article: Predestination in Islam

Qadar (Arabic: قدر, transliterated qadar, meaning "fate", "divine fore-ordainment", "predestination") is the concept of divinedestiny in Islam. It is one of Islam's six pillars of faith, along with belief in the Oneness of God, the Revealed Books, the Prophets of Islam, the Day of Resurrectionand Angels.

In Islam, "predestination" is the usual English language rendering of a belief that Muslims call al-qada wa al-qadar in Arabic. The phrase means "the divine decree and the predestination". In Islam, God has predetermined, known, ordained, and is constantly creating every event that takes place in the world. This is entailed by his being omnipotent and omniscient. Sunni scholars hold that there is no contradiction in people's deeds (and naturally their choices) being created and predetermined by the creator, since they define free will to be the antonym of compulsion and coercion. People – in the Sunni perspective – do acknowledge that they are free, since they do not see anybody or anything forcing them to do whatever they chose to do. This, however, does not contradict that everything they do, including the choices they make, are predestined and predetermined by God. Consequently, people are already predestined to either heaven or hell at birth, as Sunnis believe; however, they will have no argument on the day of judgment since they never knew in advance what their fate would be, and they do acknowledge that they have choice; which is what moral responsibility comes with.

The concept of human will being predetermined by God's will is stated clearly in the Quran: "Verily this (The Holy Quran) is no less than a Message to (all) the Worlds; (With profit) to whoever among you wills to go straight, but ye shall not will except as God wills; the Cherisher of the Worlds."

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination?wprov=sfla1

On Wikipedia it's described from sunnI islam view

But in shia Islam view you can change your destination by your deeds although we are not completly free it's something between predestination &free will 

Shiite view
The view adopted by the Shia scholars and theologians on this subject is the acceptance of the general and divine significance while accepting the power of man and the influence of his will and power in arbitrary verbs: Judaism and magnitude include all the phenomena existing in the universe, and no phenomenon from it It is not escape, whether it is a phenomenon of human action or other terrestrial and heavenly events ... because, given that justice and justice are largely due to the divine knowledge and the great and comprehensive will of God, its universality and scope are evident, but never Disqualification and Human Freedom. [16]

With regard to the above issues, the fundamental question here is how the consistency of opinion is in common sense with the belief in human authority. This article is being reviewed.

http://fa.wikishia.net/view/قضا_و_قدر

http://ar.wikishia.net/view/القضاء_والقدر

You can find better description here

Man and Faith

This text authored by Martyr Ayatullah Murtadha Mutahhari aims to shed light on the relationships between man and animal, knowledge and faith, and explain the distinctions of religious faith, kinds of ideologies, and where Islam stands in that respect.

https://www.al-islam.org/man-and-faith-ayatullah-murtadha-mutahhari

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3 hours ago, andres said:

 

Can God repent? What is the point of us being here if God already knows the future? Christians always disagreed on this. The Bible seemingly also does

So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” (Genesis 6:7)

God is no mere human! He doesn't tell lies or change his mind. God always keeps his promises. (Numbers 23:19)

As far as I have understood, (all?) Muslims agree Allah cannot change his mind, but here are two examples from the Quran that seemingly says Allaah can change his mind.  Is this an issue that also divide Muslims?

We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent? (Quran 2:106)

And so We have made you ˹believers˺ an upright community so that you may be witnesses over humanity and that the Messenger may be a witness over you. We assigned your former direction of prayer only to distinguish those who would remain faithful to the Messenger from those who would lose faith. It was certainly a difficult test except for those ˹rightly˺ guided by Allah. And Allah would never discount your ˹previous acts of˺ faith. Surely Allah is Ever Gracious and Most Merciful to humanity. (Quran 2:143)

Andres,

It is our belief God does not change his "mind".

He does change his command though, and the reason is our minds change. For example, God may order us to do one thing, and this maybe to raise us to a level so that we can understand and appreciate his next command. 

There is a difference between God's knowledge, which is complete and unchanging, and His command, which is often contextual. 

This is why the direction of prayer changed, this is why the commands of prophets have "evolved" over time, each working its way closer to perfection, but staying within the limits of their society. 

 

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3 hours ago, andres said:

We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent? (Quran 2:106)

As salaamun aleikum, 

As far as Im aware, please correct me if i am wrong, the reason why this is the case is because a process of elimination was part of the way people were lead. The rules,guidance, what have you of Islam needed to be absorbed slowly over time, not suddenly, as it wouldve been harder on people and many may have rejected Islam had it come down hard upon them like a hammer, expecting too many heavy changes too soon in a very strict manner.

For example, regarding the eventual prohibition of alcohol,verses like Surah Baqara 2;219 was first revealed:

They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. And they ask you as to what they should spend. Say: What you can spare. Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder.

It is not an outright prohibition at this point, rather, it advises that there is great sin, but still, people COULD choose to partake in it, as it was deeply woven into the fabric of their customs.

The 2nd verse, 4;43, sets the first clear limits, forbidding it near/durring prayer times:

O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say.

Finally, the 3rd ayat in the series, 5;90, lays it all out clearly:

O you who believe! intoxicants and games of chance and (sacrificing to) stones set up and (dividing by)arrows are only an uncleanness, the Shaitan's work; shun it therefore that you may be successful. The Shaitan only desires to cause enmity and hatred to spring in your midst by means of intoxicants and games of chance, and to keep you off from the remembrance of Allah and from prayer. Will you then desist?

It may appear as Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is changing his mind, but what was actually happeninv was Allahsسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى guidance coming slowly, over a period of time, in what was tbe best manner considering the condition of the people and their weaknesses and engrained habits.

W/s

 

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Hi Ashvazdanghe

Thanks for your info and links. I had read the wikipedia before, but found the language difficult. Gave it another try,  and also discovered there actually was a Swedish version, so I think i got at least the Sunni position. That Sunnis, despite the Quran say God could replace a verse with a better, or change the prayer direction from Jerusalem to the Kaaba, believe everything is predestined, could be explained by God already from the beginning had planned these changes. However it does not solve the problem about how can God be a good God when creating individuals that he knew would go to Hell. 

If I got it right, Shias believe that all have got the freedom to change history. But does God not know what our choises will be? And if he does, how can this not be predestiny?

The predestination paradox is probably just as difficult for Muslims as for Christians.  

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14 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

Andres,

It is our belief God does not change his "mind".

He does change his command though, and the reason is our minds change. For example, God may order us to do one thing, and this maybe to raise us to a level so that we can understand and appreciate his next command. 

There is a difference between God's knowledge, which is complete and unchanging, and His command, which is often contextual. 

This is why the direction of prayer changed, this is why the commands of prophets have "evolved" over time, each working its way closer to perfection, but staying within the limits of their society. 

 

Why did the first Muslims pray in direction Jerusalem? Did the Quran tell them to do so?

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12 minutes ago, andres said:

Why did the first Muslims pray in direction Jerusalem? Did the Quran tell them to do so?

Quran 2:143 And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels.

Quran 2:144 We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it [in prayer]. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.

Quran 2:142 The foolish among the people will say, "What has turned them away from their qiblah, which they used to face?" Say, "To Allah belongs the east and the west. He guides whom He wills to a straight path."

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27 minutes ago, Arminmo said:

Quran 2:143 And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels.

Quran 2:144 We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it [in prayer]. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.

Quran 2:142 The foolish among the people will say, "What has turned them away from their qiblah, which they used to face?" Say, "To Allah belongs the east and the west. He guides whom He wills to a straight path."

Accordig to Wikipedia this change happened 624AD. But why did the first Muslims pray in direction Jerusalem if not commanded by God in the Quran? Or could this verse have been lost?

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11 minutes ago, andres said:

Accordig to Wikipedia this change happened 624AD. But why did the first Muslims pray in direction Jerusalem if not commanded by God in the Quran? Or could this verse have been lost?

I showed you in the first verse, at first it was, but then god changed it. (a test, to distinguish between believers and non believers. Who follow his words and whom don’t. )

there is no thing such as lost, otherwise, all those “numerical miracles of Quran” could not be achieved.( Not even one letter is lost.)

http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix1.html

Edited by Arminmo

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1 hour ago, andres said:

If I got it right, Shias believe that all have got the freedom to change history. But does God not know what our choises will be? And if he does, how can this not be predestiny?

The predestination paradox is probably just as difficult for Muslims as for Christians.  

Shia belives that God  put different predestination for everyone &showed the way in Holy Quran beside Imams (as) and we can choose between predestination the best example is Hur that was in Yazid's army but at Ashura  day changed his side & joined to Imam hussain  (as) thus instead of he'll goes to heaven.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Hurr_ibn_Yazid_al_Tamimi?wprov=sfla1

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Al-Hurr_b._Yazid_al-Riyahi

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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1 hour ago, andres said:

does God not know what our choises will be? And if he does, how can this not be predestiny?

This question is about Allah swt so we should be very careful about answering it.

i think 

some people who have certain knowledge in specific field  they can judge the future and sometimes they are also correct.He is al knowing He knows everything.

But we have the authority to choose the right or wrong, it's a test to see we obey Him or not.and if we do follow Him and do good we will get reward.

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31 minutes ago, andres said:

Accordig to Wikipedia this change happened 624AD. But why did the first Muslims pray in direction Jerusalem if not commanded by God in the Quran? Or could this verse have been lost?

Before his call to Prophet Hood and during the early Years of Meccan period of his ministry, the Prophet - and his community with him - used to turn in prayer towards the Kabah. This was not prompted by any specific revelation, but was obviously due to the fact that Kabah - although it had in the meantime been filled with idols to which pre-Islamic Arabs paid homage - was always regarded as 1st temple ever dedicated to One God. 

"Behold, the First Temple ever set up for mankind was indeed one at Bakkah (I.e Makkah) rich in Blessing, and a source of guidance to all the Worlds. (Quran 3:96)

Since he was aware of the sanctity of Jerusalem - the other Holy centre of unitarian faith - The Prophet prayed, as a rule, before the Southern Wall of the Kabah, towards the North, so as to face both Kabah and Jerusalem. So this should answer your concern of The Prophet worshiping One God facing Kabah but actually facing Jerusalem. 

After the exodus to Madinah he continued to pray northwards, with only Jerusalem as his Qiblah (direction of prayer). About Sixteen months after his arrival in Madinah, however he received a revelation (Verses 142-150 of Surah Baqara i.e Chapter 2nd) which definitely established Kabah as the Qiblah of the followers of Quran. Now they turned their face towards Kabah while at Madinah.

This "abandonment" of Jerusalem, obviously displeased the Jews of Madinah, who must have felt gratified when they saw the Muslims praying towards their holy city and it is to them that the opening sentence of the passage refers i.e ... THE WEAK MINDED among people say..... 

If one considers the matter from historical point of view, there had never been "change" in the Divine Commandments relating to the Qiblah (direction of Prayer): there had simply been no ordinance whatever in this respect before Verses 142-150 of Chapter 2ndwere revealed. 


So Muhammad (saw) did not invent anything and was not doing anything against the Word of God in order to win the hearts of creation. He was 1st following what he thought was right, but once God decreed , then he followed what was decreed. 


As the Verse above says... Say "God's is the East and West; He guides whom He wills on to a straight way...which means it is not about facing East or West, its about believing and obeying God, for the Muslims were commanded and they obeyed, and the Jews were commanded and they disobeyed even though the one who was calling towards the path of guidance, is mentioned clearly in their scriptures.

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25 minutes ago, Jin Jin said:

Before his call to Prophet Hood and during the early Years of Meccan period of his ministry, the Prophet - and his community with him - used to turn in prayer towards the Kabah. This was not prompted by any specific revelation, but was obviously due to the fact that Kabah - although it had in the meantime been filled with idols to which pre-Islamic Arabs paid homage - was always regarded as 1st temple ever dedicated to One God. 

"Behold, the First Temple ever set up for mankind was indeed one at Bakkah (I.e Makkah) rich in Blessing, and a source of guidance to all the Worlds. (Quran 3:96)

Since he was aware of the sanctity of Jerusalem - the other Holy centre of unitarian faith - The Prophet prayed, as a rule, before the Southern Wall of the Kabah, towards the North, so as to face both Kabah and Jerusalem. So this should answer your concern of The Prophet worshiping One God facing Kabah but actually facing Jerusalem. 

After the exodus to Madinah he continued to pray northwards, with only Jerusalem as his Qiblah (direction of prayer). About Sixteen months after his arrival in Madinah, however he received a revelation (Verses 142-150 of Surah Baqara i.e Chapter 2nd) which definitely established Kabah as the Qiblah of the followers of Quran. Now they turned their face towards Kabah while at Madinah.

This "abandonment" of Jerusalem, obviously displeased the Jews of Madinah, who must have felt gratified when they saw the Muslims praying towards their holy city and it is to them that the opening sentence of the passage refers i.e ... THE WEAK MINDED among people say..... 

If one considers the matter from historical point of view, there had never been "change" in the Divine Commandments relating to the Qiblah (direction of Prayer): there had simply been no ordinance whatever in this respect before Verses 142-150 of Chapter 2ndwere revealed. 


So Muhammad (saw) did not invent anything and was not doing anything against the Word of God in order to win the hearts of creation. He was 1st following what he thought was right, but once God decreed , then he followed what was decreed. 


As the Verse above says... Say "God's is the East and West; He guides whom He wills on to a straight way...which means it is not about facing East or West, its about believing and obeying God, for the Muslims were commanded and they obeyed, and the Jews were commanded and they disobeyed even though the one who was calling towards the path of guidance, is mentioned clearly in their scriptures.

Where did you find this information?

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32 minutes ago, Jin Jin said:

This question is about Allah swt so we should be very careful about answering it.

i think 

some people who have certain knowledge in specific field  they can judge the future and sometimes they are also correct.He is al knowing He knows everything.

But we have the authority to choose the right or wrong, it's a test to see we obey Him or not.and if we do follow Him and do good we will get reward.

That was not what I meant. This was: If a God knows that he creates persons destined to burn in Hell eternally, can this be a good God?

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FYI:

Quote
Concerning (qada') Destiny And Decree (qadar)1

Says the Shaykh Abu Ja'far: Our belief concerning this is the reply of (Imam Ja'far) as-Sadiq to Zurara when he was asked: What do you say, O my Leader, concerning destiny (qada) and decree (qadar)? 

He said: I say that when Allah will collect the slaves on the Day of Resurrection, He will ask them concerning what He had enjoined on them,

and will not question them concerning what He had destined for them.2

https://www.al-islam.org/a-shiite-creed-shaykh-saduq/concerning-qada-destiny-and-decree-qadar

*****

Holy Quran 1 Verses 1-7.

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37 minutes ago, andres said:

That was not what I meant. This was: If a God knows that he creates persons destined to burn in Hell eternally, can this be a good God?

There is no such a thing as : good god or bad god, god is one,it’s your own minds interpretation that makes him good or bad ( based on false or true information that you have about how he operates) and you don’t have any information about him, unless if he has given You any information about how he is managing humanity. Hadith from imam: God manages humanity somewhere between freewill and predestined. 

Path to reach god in heaven is obvious, information of that is in the book, unless if you yourself (or by help of Satan ) don’t want to follow gods words, you did that by yourself ( and help of Satan), you can ignore Satan’s word by obeying word of god in Quran.

Edited by Arminmo

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26 minutes ago, Arminmo said:

Hadith from imam: God manages humanity somewhere between freewill and predestined. 

 

The Imam is wrong, "Free will" cannot be "partial". By definition one's "will" is either "free" or controlled. No half-position exists for this concept. 

What Andres asked is a good question, pity you dismiss it so quickly.

All Islamic scholars (Shia included) accept the Law of Causality, also known as the Principle of Sufficient Reason: everything that exists exists for a reason and that reason is God.
If everything that exists has a ‘reason’ for its existence and the source of that reason is ‘random chance’ then you do have some free will.

But if the source of that ‘reason’ is God then you have no free will.

Omar Khayyam: 

"I came not hither of my own free will, 
And go against my wish, a puppet still; 

When Allah mixed my clay He knew full well 
My future acts, and could each one foretell; 

Without His will no act of mine was wrought; 
Is it then just to punish me in hell?" 
 

wslm.

*

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4 minutes ago, Quisant said:

 

The Imam is wrong, "Free will" cannot be "partial". By definition one's "will" is either "free" or controlled. No half-position exists for this concept. 

I highly doubt the hadith says such a thing.

Humans have free will. Predestination doesn't exist. What would the point of this life be if we're predestined. And if we are predestined then how can we get the blame for choices we didn't select but were destined for?

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16 minutes ago, Quisant said:

By definition one's "will" is either "free" or controlled.

You used the word definition, who has defined that definition ? In our religion, Quran , prophets and imams.

i see from your status you are non religious. So you could have some other wrong definitions. Right definition: by god, prophets and imams.

 

Edited by Arminmo

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26 minutes ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

I highly doubt the hadith says such a thing.

You are highly wrong.

hadith is from imam sadigh (as) . Book Kafi 1, page 159.

God manages humanity somewhere between freewill and predistiny. And information of that is only with god.

 

Edited by Arminmo

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13 minutes ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

And if we are predestined then how can we get the blame for choices we didn't select but were destined for?

This is one of the many religious paradoxes.

God knows your future, has known it from the moment He decided to create.

Is it possible to do other than what God knows you will do ?

*

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16 minutes ago, Arminmo said:

You are highly wrong.

hadith is from imam sadigh (as) . Book Kafi 1, page 159.

 

Salam,

Thank you, but the hadith is not as simple as you have put it. This has been discussed before by including the following verse:

فَمَنْ يُرِدِ اللَّهُ أَنْ يَهْدِيَهُ يَشْرَحْ صَدْرَهُ لِلْإِسْلَامِ ۖ وَمَنْ يُرِدْ أَنْ يُضِلَّهُ يَجْعَلْ صَدْرَهُ ضَيِّقًا حَرَجًا كَأَنَّمَا يَصَّعَّدُ فِي السَّمَاءِ

“And whomsoever Allah wills to guide, He opens his breast to Islam, and whomsoever He wills to send astray, He makes his breast closed and constricted, as if he is climbing up to the sky.” [Al-An’aam, 6:125]

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37 minutes ago, Quisant said:

 

Omar Khayyam: 

"I came not hither of my own free will, 
And go against my wish, a puppet still; 

When Allah mixed my clay He knew full well 
My future acts, and could each one foretell; 

Without His will no act of mine was wrought; 
Is it then just to punish me in hell?" 
 

wslm.

*

Just a side question, Did you ever pay attention to the fact that Did he write this out of his Free Will or was he compelled? And what will you conclude from this observation /answer or Knowledge?

 

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1 hour ago, Arminmo said:

There is no such a thing as : good god or bad god, god is one,it’s your own minds interpretation that makes him good or bad ( based on false or true information that you have about how he operates) and you don’t have any information about him, unless if he has given You any information about how he is managing humanity. Hadith from imam: God manages humanity somewhere between freewill and predestined. 

Path to reach god in heaven is obvious, information of that is in the book, unless if you yourself (or by help of Satan ) don’t want to follow gods words, you did that by yourself ( and help of Satan), you can ignore Satan’s word by obeying word of god in Quran.

If someone creates an individual that he knows will end up in Hell, this "someone" is doing something not very nice according to my moral standards. Does not matter if "someone" is a God (or a Human that deliberately manipulates the genes of an Embryo in a bad way).    

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