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Forgottenthinker

[Closed/Review]How we should think of Israel

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Seyyed Sistani, Seyyed Khamenei and many other marjas and grand scholars have already given their opinion on how we should think of israel, they base their statement on deep religion knowledge and studies.

This thread is completely useless and pointless, your personal opinion is personal one based on your little islamic knowledge and you have no credentials to tell everyone on this forum what to think of israel, you have no qualifications to tell us what to think of israel.

Please lock this thread, it is pointless.

@Abu Hadi

@Dhulfikar

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@notme

@Hameedeh

@Forgottenthinker

Salaam Alaykum

This user supported a child killer regime that used force and violence from the beginning. It is absolutely unacceptable. This user advertises non-islamic mentality among Shias.

Israel has to be wiped out. If I take your house by force and use it for 70 years, WILL IT BE MINE AFTER THAT TIME? 

Wicked Israeli regime tortures Palestinians in their prisons. They kill men, women, and children. They have to be wiped out from the map, and those civilians that you support, MUST go back to where they came.

Inshaallah as Ayatollah Khamenei said two years ago, THERE WILL BE NO ISRAEL IN MIDDLE EAST IN NEXT 25 YEARS. There will be Palestinian government in Palestine.

Edited by AmirAlmuminin Lover

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6 hours ago, Mishael said:

If your going to talk about driving people out of their homes why not talk about the Jewish exodus out of Arab lands 

You are an example of all that has gone wrong learningwise...maybe you watched a lot of tv.

Islamic world, with no pogroms and holocausts,have been the safe zone of Jewish people throughout history. When they were kicked out of Christian Spain, they felt at home in Islamic Morocco. When there were pogroms in the Yidishland (Eastern Europe), Jews found safety in Ottoman empire.
That is because they were seen as followers of a revered prophet and were treated with all due respect.  Jewish power mongering vis-a-vis Palestinians and formation of foreign entities- state- that were often brittle, inefficient, and cruel might have caused for some discomfort among Jews in Islamic world...but they were not driven out through pogroms or burning Jews in city squares on Sunday afternoon like in Europe....they willfully left because Israel provided them better conditions. An Afghan Jew could send his kid to Harvard via Israel easily, while this was impossible for him to do through Kabul University- hence the 'exodus'...which is far different than the Palestinian case. write that down.

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49 minutes ago, Mishael said:

The Israeli settlements currently under Israeli sovereignty in the West Bank were taken in the wars Arabs started even though Israel even gave land back to the Arabs such as East Jerusalem and Gaza. Also the West Bank under international law is considered disputed territory. 

Some Israelis believe West Bank is Jewish territory. Some Arabs believe Israel is Arab territory. Internationally Israels border is regarded to be the Green Line. 

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4 minutes ago, Mishael said:

Morroco barely houses Jews anymore neither does Yemen. Islamic world no holocausts what about the Armenian genocide, Sssyrian genocide, and Greek genocide.

What are you talking about? Jews or Armenians or the Greek? Why you always find the need to muddy the water? Maybe because nothing you say is clear and always wrapped around a plume of smoke and dust.

Of course Moroccan Jews came to Israel because via Israel they came to North America. Israel provided them with better options in life...they did not come because Jews were being burnt in city squares after Friday prayers.

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4 minutes ago, andres said:

Some Israelis believe West Bank is Jewish territory. Some Arabs believe Israel is Arab territory. Internationally Israels border is regarded to be the Green Line. 

Where did you pull that out from?

Israel is the only country in the UN that does not have set border....or constitution for that matter.

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2 minutes ago, Mishael said:

I never said burning and you ignored all the massacres Jew suffered under Islamic rule. Jews were virtually deported by Arabs while some left willingly why do you think Israel won because the Arabs expelled thousands of Jews from their countries. You said there were no genocides in the Islamic world I showed you that Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians were killed by the Ottoman Empire which was infact a colonial empire. 

I can argue the Arminian case but dont want to cause halfway you'd hop onto something else. Can you provide some evidence for Jewish genocide or mass deportation from Arab lands? Specially prior to the formation of state of Israel?

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People in case it isn't extremely obvious, Mishael uses what fits his narrative and fails to acknowledge any counter-narrative, and when historians who have impeccable records and are well respected in their respective fields have written in great detail about Israeli crimes like Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein and he conveniently dismisses all of them and says oh they are poor historians, blah blah, this is a person not willing to change what his narrow-minded brain believes. He keeps bringing up Assad and Hezbollah, both these scholars btw have condemned the Syrian regime and have criticised Hezbollah's involvement in Syria too, now regardless of if you agree with them that, you can see the argument that he often uses that what aboutist rhetoric about Syria and Hezbollah falls apart when you take into account what these two scholars say, because they criticize the Syrian regime very openly too and any other regime for that matter. But a person interested in engaging in apologetics will fail to recognize this and just parrot the same old propaganda points. This debate is going nowhere, stop wasting your time.

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7 hours ago, Mishael said:

Palestinians never owned the land they immigrated in the time of British rule from neighboring countries. If your going to talk about driving people out of their homes why not talk about the Jewish exodus out of Arab lands

Rulers come and go. Palestinians have long lived in what now is Israel. With the same logic Jews have only owned Israel a few centuries in the first millennium BC. Syrians, Babelonians, Romans, Ottomans and British owned it until 70 years ago.

Jewish exodus! Come on, if it ever happened that was 3.500 years ago. Most likely it is a myth, Jewish tribes  grew out of the Kanaanean population, about 3.000 years ago. Before that Jews probably did not exist.

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3 minutes ago, Mishael said:

http://embassies.gov.il/MFA/FOREIGNPOLICY/Issues/Pages/Jewish-refugees-expelled-from-Arab-lands-and-from-Iran-29-November-2016.aspx

This was after the formation of Israel.

The status of Jewry in the Ottoman Empire often hinged on the whims of the Sultan. So, for example, while Murad III ordered that the attitude of all non-Muslims should be one of "humility and abjection" and should not "live near Mosques or tall buildings" or own slaves, others were more tolerant. There was a massacre of Jews in Baghdad in 1828.There was a massacre of Jews in Barfurush in 1867. Throughout the 1860s, the Jews of Libya were subjected to punitive taxation. In 1864, around 500 Jews were killed in Marrakech and Fezin Morocco. In 1869, 18 Jews were killed in Tunis, and an Arab mob looted Jewish homes and stores, and burned synagogues, on Jerba Island. In 1875, 20 Jews were killed by a mob in Demnat, Morocco; elsewhere in Morocco, Jews were attacked and killed in the streets in broad daylight. In 1891, the leading Muslims in Jerusalem asked the Ottoman authorities in Constantinople to prohibit the entry of Jews arriving from Russia. In 1897, synagogues were ransacked and Jews were murdered in Tripolitania. This was before the formation of Israel.

I mentioned Jewish power mongering, dysfunctional state, and better prospects caused Jewish migration from Arab world to Israel and not because of the larger community.

Dysfunctional states caused the death of their own people far more so it was not a anti-Jew thing. After the formation of Israel, hostility grew but were never driven out by being put in some sort of concentration camps ready to be deported. They left on their own...we had few neighbors in Kabul whose last family members left in the late 80s...till then they were our neighbor and lived like other neighbors.

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1 hour ago, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:

This user supported a child killer regime that used force and violence from the beginning. It is absolutely unacceptable. This user advertises non-islamic mentality among Shias.

Are you kidding me? The Iranian regime tortures just as much as the Israeli regime they're both equally bad.

1 hour ago, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:

Israel has to be wiped out. If I take your house by force and use it for 70 years, WILL IT BE MINE AFTER THAT TIME? 

By that logic all people living in the Americas that have non Native American decent should go back to their respective nations, Blacks to Africa, Europeans to Europe, etc. Like it or not thats not going to happen.

 

1 hour ago, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:

THERE WILL BE NO ISRAEL IN MIDDLE EAST IN NEXT 25 YEARS.

Thats childish to say of a leader of a nation.

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4 minutes ago, Wahdat said:

I mentioned Jewish power mongering, dysfunctional state, and better prospects caused Jewish migration from Arab world to Israel and not because of the larger community.

The problem is that I a person from a Arab country can admit, there are more than 40 Muslim countries in the world they're all garbage. But there's one Jewish state we go berserk but why? And also Mishael is right, the problems we have now existed before colonization and the existence of Israel but we keep say all these countries suck because of a Zionist plot that's ridiculous and childish why do we Arab Muslims have such a childish way of thinking?  

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2 minutes ago, Forgottenthinker said:

The problem is that I a person from a Arab country can admit, there are more than 40 Muslim countries in the world they're all garbage. But there's one Jewish state we go berserk but why? And also Mishael is right, the problems we have now existed before colonization and the existence of Israel but we keep say all these countries suck because of a Zionist plot that's ridiculous and childish why do we Arab Muslims have such a childish way of thinking?  

did the problem with jews start after WWI or prior to that?

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3 minutes ago, Mishael said:

Most Jews left due to Arab persecution after the foundation of Israel. And some were stuffed into trucks to be shipped outside of Arab countries.

here you go again- do you personally know of any Jewish family that left for Israel?

New entities- states- after they were introduced by the Brits were often brittle and terrible. They ended up persecuting everyone outside the tribe/community of their rulers...so it was not an organized anti-jewish move....cause in that case we'd have had concentration/deportation camps...which we never did. People always migrate to a place where they think their families and children will be better off.

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16 minutes ago, Forgottenthinker said:

Are you kidding me? The Iranian regime tortures just as much as the Israeli regime they're both equally bad.

You are out of your boundaries.

Iran is a country with 2500 years of culture. %98 percent said Yes to Islamic Republic of Iran 40 years ago. University of Maryland did a survey recently, and more than %90 of Iranians supported Islamic Republic of Iran. So far you must be convinced that Iran is not a regime.

16 minutes ago, Forgottenthinker said:

By that logic all people living in the Americas that have non Native American decent should go back to their respective nations, Blacks to Africa, Europeans to Europe, etc. Like it or not thats not going to happen.

Your mind is mixed with illogical mentality. America gave citizenship to people of other countries, so they are citizen of US. No one has right to return them back. Who did send invitation to wicked Israeli regime? Who did send citizenship to Israeli officers?  IF I TAKE YOUR HOUSE BY FORCE AND USE IT FOR 80 YEARS, WILL IT BE MINE AFTER THAT TIME?

16 minutes ago, Forgottenthinker said:

Thats childish to say of a leader of a nation.

You will see how we destroy Israel same as ISIS.

 

@Dhulfikar

This user advertising non-islamic mentality. He supports wicked Israel regime.

Edited by AmirAlmuminin Lover

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Just now, Wahdat said:

can you elaborate on that.

Sorry lol. The problems I speak of are sectarian violence, poverty, corruption, brutality, ignorance, and arrogance that have been plaguing the Muslim world after the decline of the golden age after the Medieval ages. This explains why we can barely function without dictators keeping in line. The Prophet(saw) would be ashamed to see what happened to his followers.

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3 minutes ago, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:

Iran is a country with 2500 years of culture

Mashallah for Iran

4 minutes ago, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:

University of Maryland did a survey recently, and more than %90 of Iranians supported Islamic Republic of Iran. So far you must be convinced that Iran is not a regime.

Majority? Yes         More than 70%? Absolutely not.

5 minutes ago, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:

Who did send citizenship to Israeli officers?  IF I TAKE YOUR HOUSE BY FORCE AND USE IT FOR 80 YEARS, WILL IT BE MINE AFTER THAT TIME?

Yes officers, NOT regular people.

5 minutes ago, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:

This user advertising non-islamic mentality. He supports wicked Israel regime.

Yes act like Khameini if I speak up against your views try to silence me.

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1 minute ago, Mishael said:

Let's do a vote today to see how many people want an Islamic republic in Iran and how many don't but obviously the Iranian regime will never allow it. If so many want an Islamic republic then why be afraid to to a vote if your so sure they will all vote for the Islamic republic of Iran but obviously Iran's Islamic republic doesn't want people to choose.

I'd say majority supports, but more than 70 percent? No!

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3 minutes ago, Mishael said:

Norman Finkelstein and his points on Israeli massacres were refuted, but you just looking for the anti Israel narrative won't care to look at the full story of things

And you looking to engage in apologetics will read what fits your narrative, like I said it's a pointless debate. We're just arguing for the sake of arguing and at this point it's about who has the last say. 

10 minutes ago, Forgottenthinker said:

But there's one Jewish state we go berserk but why? And also Mishael is right, the problems we have now existed before colonization and the existence of Israel but we keep say all these countries suck because of a Zionist plot that's ridiculous and childish why do we Arab Muslims have such a childish way of thinking?  

The problem is this state has no borders, and keeps expanding and lacks a constitution either, so what does it consider to be its borders? I would be fine if Israel existed within well-defined borders and didn't keep expanding, yeah the Palestinian refugees won't get to return,  and such a state might not be recognized by many muslim countries, but that's a compromise you could live with. However, muslim countries do have legitimate issues that have nothing to do with Israel, I agree on that front. Still though, just because the countries that condemn Israel have issues themselves does not mean then that Israel isn't violating int'l law day in day out.

5 minutes ago, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:
21 minutes ago, Forgottenthinker said:

Are you kidding me? The Iranian regime tortures just as much as the Israeli regime they're both equally bad.

 

This is an interesting article on the subject, it's a very neutral perspective, you might want to read it. https://www.juancole.com/2015/02/surprising-better-israel.html

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3 minutes ago, Mohamed1993 said:

This is an interesting article on the subject, it's a very neutral perspective, you might want to read it. https://www.juancole.com/2015/02/surprising-better-israel.html

This doesnt excuse the way it acts. They should take the word Islamic out of the official name of Iran they're misusing it.

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1 minute ago, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:

Where are the mods?

 

Refute me then dont act like a child trying to get me banned. I support Israel? No I support peace between settlers and Native Arab Palestinians. Also Khameini doesn't represent Shia Islam, if he did I would've left it years ago.

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32 minutes ago, Mishael said:

Palestinians were Arabs from neighboring Arab who immigrated there in the 1800s so they don't really have much a claim to the land. Well you being Christian shouldn't you believe there was a kingdom of Israel well historically even Roman records show the Jewish revolt and Babylonian records do mention an ancient Israelite kingdom within that area. Infact the name Palestine was a name given to the region after the Romans kicked the Jews out in 70 AD it was named after the Philistines who were invaders from the Aegean Islands the land was always called Judea and Samaria. 

There was a kingdom of Israel. It lasted ca 200 years. That was almost 3.000 years ago.

Why would Jews that immigrated to Israel in the 20th century have more right to live in the land than Arabs that immigrated in the 19th century???????

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