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10 hours ago, Anonymous2144 said:

So which part of khums applys for us today then ?? 

Salam the benefit of wealth applies to us but if other parts were from personal belongings of a person it’s applied to it.

how we calculate our Khumm Dr usama Al-Atar

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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6 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

 

 

Here’s the thing verse for khums was mentions only once and it refered to spoils of war while when Zakat was mentioned and it told us send our gold or silver in the way of Allah. And Zakat was mentioned multiple of times and you can do Zakat in different kind of ways not necessarily with silver or gold And there’s  also hadiths about this

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25 minutes ago, Anonymous2144 said:

Here’s the thing verse for khums was mentions only once and it refered to spoils of war while when Zakat was mentioned and it told us send our gold or silver in the way of Allah. And Zakat was mentioned multiple of times and you can do Zakat in different kind of ways not necessarily with silver or gold And there’s  also hadiths about this

Like I said, the number of times something is mentioned in the Quran is NOT criteria for importance. 

If numbers are so important, then shouldn't we pray 700 rakats per day since that is the number of times Quran mentions salah (I think)? Or the Quran only mentions 3 prayer times - morning, midday and evening. Why do we then pray 5 times?

BTW, How much zakat have you paid?

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18 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Like I said, the number of times something is mentioned in the Quran is NOT criteria for importance. 

If numbers are so important, then shouldn't we pray 700 rakats per day since that is the number of times Quran mentions salah (I think)? Or the Quran only mentions 3 prayer times - morning, midday and evening. Why do we then pray 5 times?

BTW, How much zakat have you paid?

Lol you misunderstood me the verse for khums was only refered for SPOILS OF WAR and it was not mentioned again for something else while Zakat was mentioned for for different stuff other then gold and silver and the Quran was emphasising a lot on Zakat. As for salat the Quran was also mostly emphasising on salat and how important it is 

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1 hour ago, Anonymous2144 said:

Lol you misunderstood me the verse for khums was only refered for SPOILS OF WAR and it was not mentioned again for something else while Zakat was mentioned for for different stuff other then gold and silver and the Quran was emphasising a lot on Zakat. As for salat the Quran was also mostly emphasising on salat and how important it is 

You won’t be able to convince him no matter how much evidence or logic you put forth. Only way that he will believe you is if his marjah adopts the same opinion as you. And, God forbid that he thinks for himself. He has a covenant with Ayatollah X for jannah in exchange for blind-following. You can provide concrete proof and the reply will be “do you know more than Ayatollah X?”

Also, most marjahs won’t come out and speak to correct this mess because the whole system is thriving off of the current implementation of khums as Kamal al Haydari points out. Those scholars who question the current khums system are often vilified and blacklisted.

In programming, we call this an infinite loop. :)

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4 minutes ago, 786:) said:

You won’t be able to convince him no matter how much evidence or logic you put forth. Only way that he will believe you is if his marjah adopts the same opinion as you. And, God forbid that he thinks for himself. He has a covenant with Ayatollah X for jannah in exchange for blind-following. You can provide concrete proof and the reply will be “do you know more than Ayatollah X?”

Also, most marjahs won’t come out and speak to correct this mess because the whole system is thriving off of the current implementation of khums as Kamal al Haydari points out. Those scholars who question the current khums system are often vilified and blacklisted.

In programming, we call this an infinite loop. :)

Right now the only things im stuck on is how do I pay my zakat? And did the you watch the video I posted after the first one ? If you did i didn’t quite understand the last bit how he talks about his opinions on khums

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3 minutes ago, Anonymous2144 said:

Right now the only things im stuck on is how do I pay my zakat? And did the you watch the video I posted after the first one ? If you did i didn’t quite understand the last bit how he talks about his opinions on khums

I generally take out 2.5% of my gross earnings and distribute to the needy myself. 

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Zakah expenditures are only for the poor and for the needy and for those employed to collect [zakah] and for bringing hearts together [for Islam] and for freeing captives [or slaves] and for those in debt and for the cause of Allah and for the [stranded] traveler - an obligation [imposed] by Allah . And Allah is Knowing and Wise.

Quran 9:60 (Sahih International)

I am not aware of where you are from or live, but it should not be difficult finding one of the mentioned avenues.

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1 minute ago, 786:) said:

Zakah expenditures are only for the poor and for the needy and for those employed to collect [zakah] and for bringing hearts together [for Islam] and for freeing captives [or slaves] and for those in debt and for the cause of Allah and for the [stranded] traveler - an obligation [imposed] by Allah . And Allah is Knowing and Wise.

Quran 9:60 (Sahih International)

I am not aware of where you are from or live, but it should not be difficult finding one of the mentioned avenues.

I live in Australia I have a uncle that travels overseas every year so I guess I can give it to him to give to the poor 

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4 hours ago, Anonymous2144 said:

Lol you misunderstood me the verse for khums was only refered for SPOILS OF WAR and it was not mentioned again for something else while Zakat was mentioned for for different stuff other then gold and silver and the Quran was emphasising a lot on Zakat. As for salat the Quran was also mostly emphasising on salat and how important it is 

I found at least 3 translations of the Quran where "ghanimtum" does not refer to spoils of war but "whatever thing you gain" so clearly it is not as self-explanatory as you make it seem.

 

2 hours ago, 786:) said:

You won’t be able to convince him no matter how much evidence or logic you put forth. Only way that he will believe you is if his marjah adopts the same opinion as you. And, God forbid that he thinks for himself. He has a covenant with Ayatollah X for jannah in exchange for blind-following. You can provide concrete proof and the reply will be “do you know more than Ayatollah X?”

Also, most marjahs won’t come out and speak to correct this mess because the whole system is thriving off of the current implementation of khums as Kamal al Haydari points out. Those scholars who question the current khums system are often vilified and blacklisted.

In programming, we call this an infinite loop. :)

Exactly what proof have you guys brought forth? Khums is only mentioned once whereas zakat is mentioned several times? Based on that logic, do you admit Hz Isa (as) is more important than the Prophet (saw)?

Also if frequency of mentions in the Quran is a criteria, then please explain why we pray salah 5 times and not 700?

Also since rakat is not mentioned in the Quran, then do you admit breaking down salah into rakats is also wrong?

If you can say yes to the above, I will be convinced about khums perhaps.

In programming, you can break an infinite loop by CTRL+BREAK or CTRL+C but a smart programmer knows better. Let me know if you need some help in programming. :)

 

Edited by shiaman14

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2 hours ago, Anonymous2144 said:

Right now the only things im stuck on is how do I pay my zakat? And did the you watch the video I posted after the first one ? If you did i didn’t quite understand the last bit how he talks about his opinions on khums

Figured as much, you haven't paid a dime in zakat nor khums. 

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11 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

I found at least 3 translations of the Quran where "ghanimtum" does not refer to spoils of war but "whatever thing you gain" so clearly it is not as self-explanatory as you make it seem.

 

Exactly what proof have you guys brought forth? Khums is only mentioned once whereas zakat is mentioned several times? Based on that logic, do you admit Hz Isa (as) is more important than the Prophet (saw)?

Also if frequency of mentions in the Quran is a criteria, then please explain why we pray salah 5 times and not 700?

Also since rakat is not mentioned in the Quran, then do you admit breaking down salah into rakats is also wrong?

If you can say yes to the above, I will be convinced about khums perhaps.

Just look at the second video I posted 

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2 minutes ago, Anonymous2144 said:

Just look at the second video I posted 

I will watch the video as soon as you can answer these simple questions:

Based on that logic, do you admit Hz Isa (as) is more important than the Prophet (saw)?

Also if frequency of mentions in the Quran is a criteria, then please explain why we pray salah 5 times and not 700?

Also since rakat is not mentioned in the Quran, then do you admit breaking down salah into rakats is also wrong?

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1 minute ago, shiaman14 said:

I will watch the video as soon as you can answer these simple questions:

Based on that logic, do you admit Hz Isa (as) is more important than the Prophet (saw)?

Also if frequency of mentions in the Quran is a criteria, then please explain why we pray salah 5 times and not 700?

Also since rakat is not mentioned in the Quran, then do you admit breaking down salah into rakats is also wrong?

That video will answer these questions for you briefly :)

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31 minutes ago, Anonymous2144 said:

That video will answer these questions for you briefly :)

 

33 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

I will watch the video as soon as you can answer these simple questions:

Based on that logic, do you admit Hz Isa (as) is more important than the Prophet (saw)?

Also if frequency of mentions in the Quran is a criteria, then please explain why we pray salah 5 times and not 700?

Also since rakat is not mentioned in the Quran, then do you admit breaking down salah into rakats is also wrong?

 

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23 hours ago, Scorpionish said:
Zakat is more important in the Quran al Karim. it has 100 ayat or more, but yet khums somehow gained more importance and interest over zakat in shia, why? Well he explains it in the video.
 

Salam I advise you to watch Aql and Qyas post .counting number something in shia religion is a Qyas that forbidden in hadiths by Ahlulbayt (as)

 

13 hours ago, 786:) said:

The ulema are holding onto a bunch of straws to defend the current implementation of khums. I see more and more Shias raise an eyebrow about it as they look further into its inception. It does not require a rocket scientist to figure out there has been tampering with the scope of khums. If it is such a wajib principle of Islam, then why does the Quran only mention in it once (in a chapter named Spoils of War)? Why does Imam Ali not mention khums in NJB?

There are more arrows pointing towards it being a concoction of the economic needs well after the Holy Prophet (saw) than not.

 

On 2/9/2018 at 1:49 AM, Anonymous2144 said:

What I don’t believe is I shouldn’t give whatever profit I make becuause then there’s no point in making profit as for surplus every business needs that income to pay there workers or have it for worst case scenario which have actually happened  and I’ve witnessed some these happen. What I do believe is every year we should do Zakat Qur’an is also ordering us to do Zakat and if we don’t do it it’s a major sin and it does tell us to give gold or silver to the orphans,poor and the needy. I know that now a days we don’t use gold or silver as money anymore like in the prophets Muhammad’s SAWAWS time or the Masoomeen a.s. But wat sunnies do is Pay 2.5 percent from there savings every year for example if you have managed to save 10k at the end of the year your Zakat is $250. Or if someone has gold they measure the gold and the silver and see it’s value and pay the value of the gold or silver for Zakat. Our Sunni brothers also have that ruling of paying Zakat for your business goods or the stuff that you sell which don’t make sense at all because they are not part of your savings. 

 

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 @shiaman14  it can't be helped. Keep quoting my post as if it was about the number of times and keep dodging the argument, the video.

Your assumptions are out of place, and your argument is invalid, it was never about the number of times. What merely was said is, the Quran praises Zakat act, there is more reward, and far more benefits. The question in place is the about "khums" that Kamal al haydari showed us is not the khums itself or a part of it.

 

@Ashvazdanghe you misunderstood, the question was that Ulama focuses more on that specific "khums" they preach us so much about, The Quran praises the act of zakat and it's benefits a hundred times more than khums, isn't it amazing, that nabi u Allah Isa (as) mentioned more times than the beloved prophet of islam, Muhammad (as)? Is Muhammad telling us to follow Isa? Please man, We have the right to question our Ulama and their preaching, Kamal al haydari made a solid point, a strong argument, but if he is wrong, why respond: He doesn't know what he is talking about! it should be fairly easy to point out he is wrong.

Questioning Ulama about "khums", not the real khums, it's like when questioning authority about 9/11, instead you are told its the arabs that did it, and if you question them to investigate, you're told to shut up, or else youre a conspiracy theorists.

Edited by Scorpionish

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Surely @Anonymous2144 and @Scorpionish are not the same. Where is a good old Moderator when you need one.

34 minutes ago, Scorpionish said:

 @shiaman14  it can't be helped. Keep quoting my post as if it was about the number of times and keep dodging the argument, the video.

Your assumptions are out of place, and your argument is invalid, it was never about the number of times. What merely was said is, the Quran praises Zakat act, there is more reward, and far more benefits. The question in place is the about "khums" that Kamal al haydari showed us is not the khums itself or a part of it.

It was never about the number of times??? That is the only argument you are bringing into the discussion and now all of a sudden it is invalid???

How about this then? If you can admit that the number of occurrences of a word/Subject/topic/issue in the Quran is irrelevant to its importance, we can discuss the video?

Why does the reward of an act matter? Do you compare the reward of fasting vs salah? Don't do accounting with Allah for he can reward the sincere donation of $1 by an individual more than all the zakat and khums money combined of a billionaire. 

For someone who doesn't know the difference between pillars of Islam and furuh-e-deen, you seem pretty hung up on zakat vs. Khums.

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38 minutes ago, Scorpionish said:


@Ashvazdanghe you misunderstood, the question was that Ulama focuses more on that specific "khums" they preach us so much about, The Quran praises the act of zakat and it's benefits a hundred times more than khums, isn't it amazing, that nabi u Allah Isa (as) mentioned more times than the beloved prophet of islam, Muhammad (as)? Is Muhammad telling us to follow Isa? Please man, We have the right to question our Ulama and their preaching, Kamal al haydari made a solid point, a strong argument, but if he is wrong, why respond: He doesn't know what he is talking about! it should be fairly easy to point out he is wrong.

Questioning Ulama about "khums", not the real khums, it's like when questioning authority about 9/11, instead you are told its the arabs that did it, and if you question them to investigate, you're told to shut up, or else youre a conspiracy theorists.

How many ulama have you questioned and which of them have told you to shut up? Please name names

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There is no Zakat on al-khums property. It is because the shares of the needy from the masses 
are placed in the properties of the people in eight categories. No one of the needy in the 
masses is left out. The needy from the relatives of the Messenger of Allah have their share in 
the fifty percent of al-khums. This suffices them and they do not need the charities of the 
masses, the charities of the Holy Prophet (s.a) and the Wali (Leadership with Divine 
Authority). In this way the system leaves no one as a needy of the masses or of the relatives 
of the Messenger of Allah without proper coverage and well fare benefits. All the needy 
benefit. For this reason there is not tax on the properties of the Holy Prophet (s.a) or Wali 
(Leadership with Divine Authority). It is because for all kinds of needs there is resources in 
the system to facilitate them. There are responsibilities as well as rights." 

Share...Chapter: 129, Hadith: 1416, Number: 5

 

http://www.fourshiabooks.com/hadith/al-kafi/4/129/5

Zakat is just not for wealth it is also uses for other aspect of life but khums is just for wealth & Zakat and khums completes each other

Hadith Number 20: Those to Whom Zakat Should be Paid

عَنِ الإِمَامِ الصَّادِقِ فِي قَوْلِهِ تَعَالَى: ﴿إِنَّمَا الصَّدَقَاتُ لِلْفُقَرَاءِ...﴾؛ قَالَ: أَلْفَقِيْرُ الَّذِي لاَ يَسْأَلُ النَّاسَ، وَالْمِسْكِينُ أَجْهَدُ مِنْهُ وَالْبَائِسُ أَجْهَدُ مِنْهُم.

On the authority of Imam al-Sadiq (peace be upon him) with regards to the words of Allah: “Indeed charity is for the poor …” (Al-Qur’an, 9:60), he said: “The ‘faqir’ (poor) is one who does not beg of people, whilst the ‘miskin’ (destitute) is in an even more strenuous situation than him; and the ‘ba’is’ (wretched) is in even more difficulty than them.”
Al-Kafi, Volume 3, Page 501

Hadith Number 21: Those to Whom Zakat Should be Paid

عَنْ أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ، الإِمَامِ عَلِيّ فِي بَيَانِ أَسْبَابِ مَعَايِشِ الْخَلْقِ: أَمَّا وَجْهُ الصَّدَقَاتِ فَإِنَّمَا هِيَ لأَقْوَامٍ لَيْسَ لَهُمْ فِي الإِمَارَةِ نَصِيْبٌ، وَلاَ فِي الْعِمَارَةِ حَظٌّ، وَلاَ فِي التِِّجَارَةِ مَالٌ، وَلاَ فِي الإِِجَارَةِ مَعْرِفَةٌ وَقُدْرَةٌ، فَفَرَضَ اللٌّهُ فِي أَمْوَالِ الأَغْنِيَاءِ مَا يَقُوتُهُمْ وَيُقَوِّمُ بِهِ أَوَدَهُمْ... ثُمَّ بَـيَّنَ سُـبْحَانَهُ لِمَنْ هٌذِهِ الصَّدَقَاتُ، فَقَالَ: ﴿إِنَّمَا الصَّدَقَاتُ لِلْفُقَرَاءِ...﴾

On the authority of the Commander of the Faithful, Imam {Ali (peace be upon him), in explaining the means of sustenance of the creation: “As for charity, it is only for those who have no share in any rank or position, nor luck in building, nor wealth to trade with, nor knowledge nor capacity to employ anyone. Thus Allah has made incumbent from the possessions of the wealthy, that which can sustain them and uphold their provision … Thereupon, He, may He be Glorified, clarifies who this charity is for, in saying: ‘Indeed the charity is only for the needy…’ (Al-Qur’an, 9:60)
Bihar al-Anwar, Volume 90, Page 48

Hadith Number 22: The Apparent and Hidden Aspects of Zakat

عَنِ الإِمَامِ الصَّادِقِ لَمَّا سَأَلَهُ رَجُلٌ: فِي كَمْ تَجِبُ الزَّكَاةُ مِنَ الْمَالِ؟ فَقَالَ: الزَّكَاةُ الظَّاهِرَةُ أَمِ الْبَاطِنَةُ تُرِيْدُ؟ فَقَالَ الرَّجُلُ: أُرِيْدُهُمَا جَمِيعاً. فَقَالَ الإِمَامُ : أَمَّا الظَّاهِرَةُ فَفِي كُلِّ أَلْفٍ خَمْسَةٌ وَعِشْرُوْنَ، وَأَمَّا الْبَاطِنَةُ فَلاَ تَسْتَأْثِرْ عَلى أَخِيكَ بِمَا هُوَ أَحْوَجُ إِلَيْهِ مِنْكَ.

On the authority of Imam al-Sadiq (peace be upon him), when a man asked him: “Upon what amount of wealth is the zakat incumbent?” He (peace be upon him) replied: “Are you asking about the apparent zakat or the inward zakat?” The man responded: “I want (to know about) both of them.” So the Imam (peace be upon him) replied: “As for the apparent: twenty-five from every thousand (2.5%); and as for the inward: do not take exclusive possession over your brother, of that to which he is more needy than you”
Al-Kafi, Volume 3, Page 500 & Bihar al-Anwar, Volume 93, Page 39

Hadith Number 23: There is a Zakat for Everything, Power

عَنِ الإِمَامِ عَلِيٍّ: زَكَاةُ الْقُدْرَةِ، الإِنْصَافُ.

On the authority of Imam {Ali (peace be upon him): “The zakat of (having) power is (to administer) justice.”
Mizan al-Hikmah, Narration #7594

Hadith Number 24: There is a Zakat for Everything, Beauty

عَنِ الإِمَامِ عَلِيٍّ: زَكَاةُ الْجَمَالِ الْعَفَافُ.

On the authority of Imam {Ali (peace be upon him): “The zakat of beauty is chastity.”
Mizan al-Hikmah, Narration #7595

Hadith Number 25: There is a Zakat for Everything, Conquest

عَنِ الإِمَامِ عَلِيٍّ: زَكَاةُ الظَّفَرِ الإِحْسَانُ.

On the authority of Imam {Ali (peace be upon him): “The zakat of conquest is kindness.”
Mizan al-Hikmah, Narration #7596

Hadith Number 26: There is a Zakat for Everything, Triumph

عَنِ الإِمَامِ عَلِيٍّ: أَلْعَفْوُ زَكَاةُ الظَّفَرِ.

On the authority of Imam {Ali (peace be upon him): “Pardoning is the zakat of triumph.”
Bihar al-Anwar, Volume 75, Page 268

Hadith Number 27: There is a Zakat for Everything, Prosperity

عَنِ الإِمَامِ عَلِيٍّ: زَكَاةُ الْيَسَارِ، بِرُّ الْجِيْرَانِ وَصِلَةُ الأَرْحَامِ.

On the authority of Imam Ali (peace be upon him): “The zakat of prosperity is goodness to neighbors and maintaining good relations with family.”
Mizan al-Hikmah, Narration #7598

Hadith Number 28: There is a Zakat for Everything, Health

عَنِ الإِمَامِ عَلِيٍّ: زَكَاةُ الصِّحَّةِ، السَّعْيُ فِي طَاعَةِ اللٌّهِ.

On the authority of Imam {Ali (peace be upon him): “The zakat of health is the exertion of effort in the obedience of Allah.”
Mizan al-Hikmah, Narration #7599

https://www.al-islam.org/forty-ahadith-on-zakat/ahadith-traditions

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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8 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

I found at least 3 translations of the Quran where "ghanimtum" does not refer to spoils of war but "whatever thing you gain" so clearly it is not as self-explanatory as you make it seem.

Can you please tell me what is the name of the chapter where it is mentioned? You have to look at the context of the verse as well. I know this has become a cat and mouse game for the ulema as their livelihood is on the line, but the backing for their implementation is weak to none.

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In classical Arabic, the word "ghanimtum" has more than one meanings. And that is why you can find in bukhari some traditions which says that pearls (gained from sea) are subject to khums. And the burried treasure (at the times of ignorance) is subject to khums.

:) So "shia" reformists are trying to limit the khums. I know you people very well!

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