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shiaman14

More Important: Muhammad (saw) or Quran

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Ehhh, we call ahlulbayt ''The Quran al nadiq''. Meaning that they speak what Quran says, and explain it for us. Quran has a value cause It is Allah's words, but then you can argue that we wouldn't have heard Allah's words If it wasn't for Ahlulbayt! Allah created everything for sake of them! (Hadith al-kisa)

Arguing like that is weird, remember our prophet's miracle was the Quran! You can't say this is better than this, It is absurd in my opinion. Our prophet wanted to write in the paper in his last moment, that he left us ''Ahlulbayt and the Quran''. The two things that won't let us go astray. He didn't just mention one thing, they kind of coexist to make harmony in this world!

This isn't a light topic, may Allah bless y'all! And to Allah do we return!

Al-hamdiruillah shukr.

Edited by Hamodiii

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20 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Alaikas Salaam.

Hadith-e-Thaqalayn mentions two weighty things (Thaqalayn).

The topic is serious, so no thoughts only Ahadith.

The Prophet is outside of Hadith-e-Thaqlayn.

My argument was that we say "La Ilaha illah, Muhammad RasoolAllah" to become Muslim and not ""La Ilaha illah, Quran KitabAllah".

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2 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

The Prophet is outside of Hadith-e-Thaqlayn.

My argument was that we say "La Ilaha illah, Muhammad RasoolAllah" to become Muslim and not ""La Ilaha illah, Quran KitabAllah".

Thaqalain: Quran and Ahlulbait (ams).

Holy Prophet (sawa) is part of Ahlulbait (ams). 

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8 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Thaqalain: Quran and Ahlulbait (ams).

Holy Prophet (sawa) is part of Ahlulbait (ams). 

The AhlulBayt are part of the Prophet (saw).

AhlulBayt in this sense means the People of the (Prophet's) Household.

When the Prophet (saw) said, he is leaving behind the Quran and AhlulBayt, did he mean he is leaving behind the Quran and himself?

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9 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

The AhlulBayt are part of the Prophet (saw).

:confused:

10 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

AhlulBayt in this sense means the People of the (Prophet's) Household.

True. 

11 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

When the Prophet (saw) said, he is leaving behind the Quran and AhlulBayt, did he mean he is leaving behind the Quran and himself?

Holy Prophet (sawa) said, I'm leaving behind two weighty things. كتاب الله (Allah's Book) and اهل بيتي (My Ahlulbait). 

Notice the word 'My'. Since he was informing about the events after his departure, he mentioned about his family (Ahlulbait).

Holy Prophet's (sawa) saying about Janabe Salman e Farsi - Salmano minna Ahlulbait - shows that Prophet (sawa) himself is a part of holy Ahlulbait (pbut). 

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39 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

:confused:

True. 

Holy Prophet (sawa) said, I'm leaving behind two weighty things. كتاب الله (Allah's Book) and اهل بيتي (My Ahlulbait). 

Notice the word 'My'. Since he was informing about the events after his departure, he mentioned about his family (Ahlulbait).

Holy Prophet's (sawa) saying about Janabe Salman e Farsi - Salmano minna Ahlulbait - shows that Prophet (sawa) himself is a part of holy Ahlulbait (pbut). 

My AhlulBayt = my family. Take care of my family after me. That in itself shows that the family the Prophet is referring is outside of him since he says, "after me".

but we digress...

When Muawiya's army put the Quran on spears, didn't Imam Ali (as) tell them to listen to him and not worry about the Quran on spears?

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Can someone explain to me the importance of this question as the Quran and the Prophet will never contradict eachother. You're basically asking whats more important, the absolute truth (Quran) or the absolute truth (Rasulullah)? It poses no meaning from my perspective.

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1 hour ago, Ali Salhab said:

Can someone explain to me the importance of this question as the Quran and the Prophet will never contradict eachother. You're basically asking whats more important, the absolute truth (Quran) or the absolute truth (Rasulullah)? It poses no meaning from my perspective.

It was a discussion I had with some sunni brothers. 

The discussion started of with, "Book of Allah is sufficient" .

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9 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Salaam,

So I got into an interesting discussion with a Sunni brother about what is more important - the Prophet (saw) or the Quran?

I said, "Prophet"
He said, "Quran"

Thoughts?

We have Quran today but majority muslims are misguided, beacuse they are trying to get Quran from fake Khalifa, Imams and Mullah. Without Ahlul Bayth (A.S) we can't get true meaning of Quran. Plus see the chaos we have in this world without Ahlul Bayth (A.S). Only one Imam (A.S) is going to come and solve these issues under his guidence. This is how important Ahlul Bayth (A.S) is.

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3 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Yes brother.

Is it?

depends. for guidance, yes it is. cant remember but am pretty sure there is an ayah which says something like this. that the quran is complete and sufficient. which the quraniyyoon often present. that is in a certain context. a simple counter example would be science. or medicine. quran is not sufficient for a person to become a doctor. if one then comes and says it is sufficient for religion, then that would also be incorrect. as the quran only tells us the what. and the prophet pbuhahf tells us the how. and explains the quran. 

so, to summarize, it is sufficient for guidance. but for details, the messenger explains the book.

P.S. i dont know if the question was based on the statement of umar on the thursday. was it?

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هُوَ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِنْ عِنْدِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ {7}

[Shakir 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.


[Pickthal 3:7] He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.


[Yusufali 3:7] He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

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12 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

It was a discussion I had with some sunni brothers. 

The discussion started of with, "Book of Allah is sufficient" .

The presence of the Prophet  saaw made the revelation of Quran possible only thus book alone is not sufficient in any manner without the prophet and his Ahl albaayt AS.

Edited by skyweb1987

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i can give you some advice before you think about the answer, my dear brothers.

we're sure Allah swt acts arent useless(Naozobellah) i mean we know something about Allah swt "A'adl" عدل, so let see what was the first creature Allah swt created first? was it quran or was it Muhammad saww?:-) i leave the rest for you dear brothers, by the answer, you can easily search for ahadith about which one is important, the Holy Quran or the Holy prophet muhammad saww, also remember the Quran was a part of the prophet saww, it was on his heart, yet he had more that still wasnt in the quran, just like Sahifa Hazrat Zahra s.a:-)

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2 hours ago, just a muslim said:

depends. for guidance, yes it is. cant remember but am pretty sure there is an ayah which says something like this. that the quran is complete and sufficient. which the quraniyyoon often present. that is in a certain context. a simple counter example would be science. or medicine. quran is not sufficient for a person to become a doctor. if one then comes and says it is sufficient for religion, then that would also be incorrect. as the quran only tells us the what. and the prophet pbuhahf tells us the how. and explains the quran. 

so, to summarize, it is sufficient for guidance. but for details, the messenger explains the book.

P.S. i dont know if the question was based on the statement of umar on the thursday. was it?

Oddly enough, the statement of Caliph Umar is NOT what started this discussion.

A quick summary is my Sunni acquaintance said, "if Imamah and Mahdi were so important in Islam, they would be mentioned in the Quran."
I re-torted with, "Not everything is clearly spelled out in the Quran. It is a reference book rather than an encyclopedia"
He said, "Wrong, Quran alone is sufficient"

And so the discussion ensued.

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18 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Oddly enough, the statement of Caliph Umar is NOT what started this discussion.

A quick summary is my Sunni acquaintance said, "if Imamah and Mahdi were so important in Islam, they would be mentioned in the Quran."
I re-torted with, "Not everything is clearly spelled out in the Quran. It is a reference book rather than an encyclopedia"
He said, "Wrong, Quran alone is sufficient"

And so the discussion ensued.

lol

ah i see. should have turned the tables on him and said oh wait, you believe in imam mahdi too. where is it in the quran again? 

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23 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

So I got into an interesting discussion with a Sunni brother about what is more important - the Prophet (saw) or the Quran?

Surah An-Nahl, Verse 64:
وَمَا أَنزَلْنَا عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ إِلَّا لِتُبَيِّنَ لَهُمُ الَّذِي اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةً لِّقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُونَ

And We have not revealed to you the Book except that you may make clear to them that about which they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.
(English - Shakir)

Surah An-Nahl, Verse 89:
وَيَوْمَ نَبْعَثُ فِي كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْهِم مِّنْ أَنفُسِهِمْ وَجِئْنَا بِكَ شَهِيدًا عَلَىٰ هَٰؤُلَاءِ وَنَزَّلْنَا عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ تِبْيَانًا لِّكُلِّ شَيْءٍ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةً وَبُشْرَىٰ لِلْمُسْلِمِينَ

And on the day when We will raise up in every people a witness against them from among themselves, and bring you as a witness against these-- and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit.
(English - Shakir)

 

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

lol

ah i see. should have turned the tables on him and said oh wait, you believe in imam mahdi too. where is it in the quran again? 

he doesn't because it is not mentioned clearly in the Quran.

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Surah At-Taubah, Verse 101:
وَمِمَّنْ حَوْلَكُم مِّنَ الْأَعْرَابِ مُنَافِقُونَ وَمِنْ أَهْلِ الْمَدِينَةِ مَرَدُوا عَلَى النِّفَاقِ لَا تَعْلَمُهُمْ نَحْنُ نَعْلَمُهُمْ سَنُعَذِّبُهُم مَّرَّتَيْنِ ثُمَّ يُرَدُّونَ إِلَىٰ عَذَابٍ عَظِيمٍ

"And from among those who are round about you of the dwellers of the desert there are hypocrites, and from among the people of Medina (also); they are stubborn in hypocrisy; you do not know them; We know them; We will chastise them twice then shall they be turned back to a grievous chastisement." Salaam can someone please explain me this verse and who it is addressing? 

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17 hours ago, mn05 said:

Surah At-Taubah, Verse 101:
وَمِمَّنْ حَوْلَكُم مِّنَ الْأَعْرَابِ مُنَافِقُونَ وَمِنْ أَهْلِ الْمَدِينَةِ مَرَدُوا عَلَى النِّفَاقِ لَا تَعْلَمُهُمْ نَحْنُ نَعْلَمُهُمْ سَنُعَذِّبُهُم مَّرَّتَيْنِ ثُمَّ يُرَدُّونَ إِلَىٰ عَذَابٍ عَظِيمٍ

"And from among those who are round about you of the dwellers of the desert there are hypocrites, and from among the people of Medina (also); they are stubborn in hypocrisy; you do not know them; We know them; We will chastise them twice then shall they be turned back to a grievous chastisement." Salaam can someone please explain me this verse and who it is addressing? 

Read from the verse before and it will make sense. It talks praise about the Muhajireen and Ansar and then it says this. You can tell what the verse is talking about because of the surrounding verses.

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