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Dhulfikar

Abu Bakr have more knowledge than Ali

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Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “No one among the respectable Muslim scholars has said that ‘Ali was more knowledgeable or had more understanding of Islam than Abu Bakr and ‘Umar, or even than Abu Bakr alone. Those who claim that there is consensus on that are among the most ignorant of people and the greatest liars. Rather, more than one of the scholars have stated that there is scholarly consensus that Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq was more knowledgeable than ‘Ali, such as Imam Mansoor ibn ‘Abd al-Jabbaar al-Sam’aani al-Marwadhi, one of the leading scholars of the Sunnah among the companions of al-Shaafa’i, who mentioned in his book Taqweem al-Adillah ‘ala’l-Imam that there was consensus among the scholars of the Sunnah that Abu Bakr was more knowledgeable than ‘Ali. I do not know of anyone among the famous imams who disputes this point. How could it be otherwise when Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq used to issue rulings and commands and prohibitions, and pass judgements, and deliver khutbahs in the presence of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), as he used to do when he and Abu Bakr would go out to call the people to Islam, and when they migrated together, and on the day of Hunayn, and on other occasions, when the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) remained silent and approved of what Abu Bakr said; no one else enjoyed such status. When the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) consulted with the wise and knowledgeable men among his companions, he would consult Abu Bakr and ‘Umar first, because they were the first to speak about matters of Islam in the presence of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) before the rest of his companions; for example when he consulted them about the prisoners of Badr, the first ones who spoke about that were Abu Bakr and ‘Umar, and this also happened on other occasions… In Saheeh Muslim it is narrated that the companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) were with him on a journey and he said: “If the people obey Abu Bakr and ‘Umar, they will be guided aright.” And it was narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas that he used to give his fatwas based on the Book of Allaah, and if he could not find anything then he would look at the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), then if he could not find anything he would refer to the fatwas of Abu Bakr and ‘Umar, then if he did not find anything he would refer to the fatwas of ‘Uthmaan and ‘Ali – and Ibn ‘Abbaas was the habr al-ummah (scholar of the ummah) and the most knowledgeable of the Sahaabah of his time, and he would consult the words of Abu Bakr and ‘Umar and give them precedence over the words of anyone else among the Sahaabah. And it was proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) prayed for Ibn ‘Abbaas and said, “O Allaah, cause him to understand the religion of Islam and teach him the correct interpretation (of the Qur’aan).” 

Sunnis have hasan hadith that goes like:

‘I am the city of knowledge and ‘Ali is it’s gate’

But the scholar Mulla ‘Ali Al Qari do not stop here, he says that this Hadith means ‘Ali is one of the numerous doors of knowledge and not the only door. However, Nabi specifically mentioning his name, indicates that he does have extra knowledge and honour over other general Sahabah.

See he specifically mentions Ali for some reason, but not Abu bakr. But why not Abu Bakr, when he is actually the most knowledgeable of all the sahaba;

Narrated Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) addressed the people saying, "Allah has given option to a slave to choose this world or what is with Him. The slave has chosen what is with Allah." Abu Bakr wept, and we were astonished at his weeping caused by what the Prophet (ﷺ) mentioned as to a Slave ( of Allah) who had been offered a choice, (we learned later on) that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) himself was the person who was given the choice, and that Abu Bakr knew best of all of us. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) added, "The person who has favored me most of all both with his company and wealth, is Abu Bakr. If I were to take a Khalil other than my Lord, I would have taken Abu Bakr as such, but (what relates us) is the Islamic brotherhood and friendliness. All the gates of the Mosque should be closed except the gate of Abu Bakr." Sahih Bukhari, Hadith: 3654 

----

And you think a Shi'i can convince a Sunni that Ali (as) is the successor of Nabi and most knowledge after Nabi, when they hold these hadith as same level of authenticity than Qur'an?

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I don't care what anyone says, because I know for a fact that Imam Ali (as) was in a different league.

Just study the sayings of Abu Bakar and compare it with the eloquence and perfection of Imam Ali's (as) words. You don't have to be a scholar to recognize the beauty of Imam Ali's words. (as)

Dua Kumayl itself should be a proof that Imam Ali (as) was special and a million times more knowledgeable.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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Sunnis always do this. Any virtue of Ali (as) they try to attribute to shaykhayn or other than them. For instance they call Abu Bakr as-siddiq when Ali (as) said in sunni traditions "I am the servant of Allah and the brother of the messenger of Allah. I am the greatest truthful one (siddiqul akbar) and no one claims this after me except a liar. I prayed for 7 years before the rest of the people"  

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18 minutes ago, Shi3i_jadeed said:

Sunnis always do this. Any virtue of Ali (as) they try to attribute to shaykhayn or other than them. For instance they call Abu Bakr as-siddiq when Ali (as) said in sunni traditions "I am the servant of Allah and the brother of the messenger of Allah. I am the greatest truthful one (siddiqul akbar) and no one claims this after me expect a liar. I prayed for 7 years before the rest of the people"  

Get this. One time I was listening in on a debate between a shia guy and some sunnis. And one of them said that they have an example of Imam Ali going against the prophet. And the proof? That when the treaty of hudabiyah was being negotiated and the pagan leader requested that Imam Ali cross out "Messenger of Allah" next to the prophet's name Imam Ali refused to do this, and so the prophet had to do this himself. Bruh, lol. 

Edited by Guest Account Ali

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55 minutes ago, Guest Account Ali said:

Get this. One time I was listening in on a debate between a shia guy and some sunnis. And one of them said that they have an example of Imam Ali going against the prophet. And the proof? That when the treaty of hudabiyah was being negotiated and the pagan leader requested that Imam Ali cross out "Messenger of Allah" next to the prophet's name Imam Ali refused to do this, and so the prophet had to do this himself. Bruh, lol. 

And they try to compare that to the calamity of thursday. It's ridiculous. 

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Sunnis will do anything to elevate the sahabah over the AhlulBayt (as)

So basically they're trying to say that Abu Bakr who used to worship idols before converting to Islam, who said to Fatimah al Zahra (as) that "prophets do not share their inheritance" and angering her in the end, to be more knowledgeable than Amirul Momineen(as)???

I'm doneeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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Salam Lady Khadija (as) spent all of his wealth for Islam & she was first woman that embraced Islam but Sunnis Bro&Sis do not care about him & every time praising Aisha that do nothing for Islam & stand against Imam ali (as) this is as the same for Abubakr that his sacrifice is very lesser than Imam Ali (as).

Edited by Hameedeh
spelling

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5 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

this is as the same for Abubakr that his sacrifice is very lesser than Imam Ali (as).

Less?. Abu bakar has no sacrifice for Islam. Rather, he damaged Islam by coming in the way of Hujjat e Khuda, changed laws, killed prophet's daughter, etcetera .

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8 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

Narrated Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) addressed the people saying, "Allah has given option to a slave to choose this world or what is with Him. The slave has chosen what is with Allah." Abu Bakr wept, and we were astonished at his weeping caused by what the Prophet (ﷺ) mentioned as to a Slave ( of Allah) who had been offered a choice, (we learned later on) that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) himself was the person who was given the choice, and that Abu Bakr knew best of all of us. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) added, "The person who has favored me most of all both with his company and wealth, is Abu Bakr. If I were to take a Khalil other than my Lord, I would have taken Abu Bakr as such, but (what relates us) is the Islamic brotherhood and friendliness. All the gates of the Mosque should be closed except the gate of Abu Bakr." Sahih Bukhari, Hadith: 3654 

And you think a Shi'i can convince a Sunni that Ali (as) is the successor of Nabi and most knowledge after Nabi, when they hold these hadith as same level of authenticity than Qur'an?

As far as the stateemnt "All the gates of the Mosque should be closed except the gate of Abu Bakr." Sahih Bukhari, Hadith: 3654 " is concerned  I disagree based on the verses of quran and hadith of the prophet saaw.

The detail of my view can be seen in the thread at the given link:

wasalam

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On 1/28/2018 at 8:47 AM, Dhulfikar said:

Rather, more than one of the scholars have stated that there is scholarly consensus that Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq was more knowledgeable than ‘Ali,

:hahaha:

And now I am presenting before you the height of Abu Bakar's knowledge:

Abu Bakr Once looked at a bird on a tree, then said,

“Well done bird … You eat the fruits, you stand on the trees and you are not accountable to anybody nor indeed can anybody punish you. I wish I was a tree by the road, and that a camel would come along and eat me. then relieve me with his <<bowel evacuation>> … I wish that I had been all that, rather than a human being.”

[Tarikh al-Tabari Page 41]
[Al-Riyadh Al-Nadira, Vol 1 Page 134]
[Kanz al Ummal, Page 361]
[Minhaj as Sunnah, Ibn Taymiyya, Vol 3 Page 120]


Interesting thing is that Ibn e Taymiyyah knew the height of Mr. Bakar's knowledge :D

So instead of being human he wanted to be something nasty :hahaha:. He never knew the value of human being, he never understood the following verse:
 

وَلَقَدْ كَرَّمْنَا بَنِي آدَمَ وَحَمَلْنَاهُمْ فِي الْبَرِّ وَالْبَحْرِ وَرَزَقْنَاهُم مِّنَ الطَّيِّبَاتِ وَفَضَّلْنَاهُمْ عَلَى كَثِيرٍ مِّمَّنْ خَلَقْنَا تَفْضِيلاً
17:70

Edited by Salsabeel

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you dont even need hadith... 

we can just read what Ali a.s wrote... and read what abu bakr wrote... 

I dont think abu bakr has 5% the knowledge or wisdom that imam ali a.s has.

Edited by kirtc

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1 hour ago, kirtc said:

you dont even need hadith... 

we can just read what Ali a.s wrote... and read what abu bakr wrote... 

I dont think abu bakr has 5% the knowledge or wisdom that imam ali a.s has.

How can you guys even compare them two? :/ 

Imam Ali is chosen by Allah, he has knowledge beyond what we can comprehend, the fact that Abu bakr did what he did, just makes him irrelevant in my opinion.

Imam Ali has already the 22 letters or 27 letters of knowledge, Abu bakr doesn't considering that Allah sent the quran and the prophet to an age where people were still uneducated.

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in Abu Bakr's defence i would say, He is the leader of old men of paradise......and wait there is another hadith,that says, I AM THE CITY OF KNOWLEDGE, ABU BAKR IS ITS FOUNDATION, UMAR IT'S WALLS, UTHMAN ITS ROOF AND 'ALI ITS DOOR!

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1 hour ago, power said:

in Abu Bakr's defence i would say, He is the leader of old men of paradise......and wait there is another hadith,that says, I AM THE CITY OF KNOWLEDGE, ABU BAKR IS ITS FOUNDATION, UMAR IT'S WALLS, UTHMAN ITS ROOF AND 'ALI ITS DOOR!

The Door to the Prophet saaw always remains open and it is still open to all presently.

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1 hour ago, power said:

in Abu Bakr's defence i would say, He is the leader of old men of paradise......and wait there is another hadith,that says, I AM THE CITY OF KNOWLEDGE, ABU BAKR IS ITS FOUNDATION, UMAR IT'S WALLS, UTHMAN ITS ROOF AND 'ALI ITS DOOR!

Sharif log (wise people) would always come through door. Walls, roof and windows are for thieves and robbers. 

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1 hour ago, power said:

in Abu Bakr's defence i would say, He is the leader of old men of paradise......and wait there is another hadith,that says, I AM THE CITY OF KNOWLEDGE, ABU BAKR IS ITS FOUNDATION, UMAR IT'S WALLS, UTHMAN ITS ROOF AND 'ALI ITS DOOR!

BROTHER, YOU JUST KILLED ME! THANK YOU.

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