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Same sex marriage legalized in Australia

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19 minutes ago, andres said:

So, when God forbade Muslims to marry more than 4 wives, was this ban valid for non-Muslims worldwide? (America, Australia, Hawaii etc.)

They must act based on their Religions & Morals nothing is compulsory in Islam

لَا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ ۖ قَد تَّبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ ۚ فَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِالطَّاغُوتِ وَيُؤْمِن بِاللَّـهِ فَقَدِ اسْتَمْسَكَ بِالْعُرْوَةِ الْوُثْقَىٰ لَا انفِصَامَ لَهَا ۗوَاللَّـهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ ﴿٢٥٦

There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing. (256

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.shakir/2:255

The firmest handle for Shia muslims are Holy Quran & Ahlulbayt (as)

 

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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8 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Yeah but when the Bible is full of verses of Prophets who had many wives, then it makes no sense to label it as adultery.

It's not that the Bible just doesn't forbid the marrying of four wives, it gives examples that Prophets had them. 

On what basis do you equate this to adultery?

I have not been able to find any ban in the Bible, dont think there is. As you say, Salomon had lots of wives, and Abraham had a slave he could use as a kind of wife. At some point monogami became the rule in Judaism so Chistianity was born with this. Jesus is not reported to be in favour of polygami, so we stay with monogami. 

An interestimg parallel is slavery. Jesus must have been aware of slavery in Israel. He never speaks against it. Up till 18th century many Christians believed it was OK. Today we believe it is a sin. The Quran also found slavery natural. Are there not Muslims that find that keeping slaves is a sin?

 Christians and Jews are not bound of what is written in the Bible as much as Muslims are bound by the words of the Quran. The New Testament Books were written by first Century Christians, persons not regarded as infallible. We are supposed to use the consciense and intellect given. So were Paul, James and other early Christians, but as they did not agree on every detail, we do not either. We  Poul in one of his letters write (dont remember which letter): "this is my opinion, and I believe it is also Gods" . Paul also had his doubts, and we are allowed to question his opinion. This freedom of thought is vital for a successful society. 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

They must act based on their Religions & Morals nothing is compulsory in Islam.

So Shias, Sunnies, Carholics and Lutherans must act according to their beliefs. Even atheists. There are good and bad people in every camp. 

Maybe God wished to have it this way. Different rules for different cultures. Makes sense to me. Being stuck with rules from over a milennium ago is not practical now that we have airoplanes, dentists, democrasy liberated women and many other helpful things that they had not back then.

Edited by andres

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22 minutes ago, andres said:

Makes sense to me. Being stuck with rules from over a milennium ago is not practical now that we have airoplanes, dentists, democrasy liberated women and many other helpful things that they had not back then.

Hi Having these things doesn't show that we more developed from our past ancestors real development is in way of thinking & behaving &  morals to deal with each other that in Islam called "Akhlaq"

Akhlaq al-A’imma, Morals & Manners of the Holy Imams

The aim of this book is to present the perfect morals of the Holy Imams. Topics include their knowledge, worship, bravery, justice, chastity, humility and contentment.

https://www.al-islam.org/akhlaq-al-aimma-morals-manners-holy-imams-maulana-sayyid-zafar-hasan-amrohi

A Survey into the Lives of the Infallible Imams

This text provides a good analysis of the lives of the Infallible Imams while presenting the different methods, struggles, and circumstances of each Imam and how they may have acted similarly or differently. However they have all acted as Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى desired of them and that if each of the Imam were in the same position as the other Imams, they would’ve behaved similarly.

https://www.al-islam.org/survey-lives-infallible-imams-murtadha-mutahhari

https://www.al-islam.org/sahifa-al-kamilah-sajjadiyya-imam-zain-ul-abideen/20-his-supplication-noble-moral-traits-and-acts

 

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1 hour ago, andres said:

The Quran also found slavery natural. Are there not Muslims that find that keeping slaves is a sin?

Slavery of America and pre-Islamic Arabia is not approved by the Quran at all. 

Quran has several verses which gives slaves their rights, and aims to speak against the barbric slavery you're talking about. There are numerous verses about the freeing of slaves. Slaves also are entitled to a salary and are meant to be treated just like anyone else (not like a commodity). 

"Righteousness is not turning your faces towards the east or the west. Righteous are those who believe in God, the Last Day, the angels, the scripture, and the prophets; and they give the money, cheerfully, to the relatives, the orphans, the needy, the traveller, the beggars, and to free the slaves." Quran [2:177]

Change cannot be made overnight so Quran gradually aimed to change the mindset of the barbaric men who use to treat slaves as some sort of commodity. It is very impractical for the Quran to come and contain a verse "Slavery is forbidden" since slavery was deeply rooted in the Arabian culture. It required time and Quran certainly took the right direction.

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@andres Back to my point, on what basis do you claim that all those Prophets committed adultery?

You believe in Prophets who had several wives and now you just claim that "something happened, therefore I believe in monogamy and equate polygamy as adultery".

Plus you made a claim that "polygamy" is like adultery according to yout religion, which I think is not true.

 

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4 hours ago, andres said:

So, when God forbade Muslims to marry more than 4 wives, was this ban valid for non-Muslims worldwide? (America, Australia, Hawaii etc.)

I don't understand the question 

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8 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

@andres Back to my point, on what basis do you claim that all those Prophets committed adultery?

You believe in Prophets who had several wives and now you just claim that "something happened, therefore I believe in monogamy and equate polygamy as adultery".

Plus you made a claim that "polygamy" is like adultery according to yout religion, which I think is not true.

 

Christians and Muslims have very different approach to the Bible and Quran. Muslims demand that they must contain Gods perfect word, Christians see them as Human divinely inspired products. The Quran is written within a short period, the Bible during 1.000 years. The Quran edited under authoritative supervision, the 4 Gospels being written by persecuted rebels. The Hebrew Bible clearly illustrates how religion slowly developed from polyteism to monotheism. Old Judaism differs from younger. Christianity differ from Judaism. Beliefs and tradition slowly changes. The Quran seems to believe the Bible is all Islam. Muslims may think that Jews and Christians should follow all laws given in the Torah because God himself made those laws and Gods laws are, and have always been unchanged. Only Jews and Christians do not agree on this. We believe God can change his mind. This difference makes discussion very difficult.

 

Abraham had a wife and a female slave. Making his slave pregnant was in those days was not unethical, slavery not either. Today Christians regard both as unethical, and as such a sin. Cultures, rules and ethics change. The Quran was one of many such changes. 

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6 hours ago, alidu78 said:

I don't understand the question 

"So, when God forbade Muslims to marry more than 4 wives, was this ban valid for non-Muslims worldwide? (America, Australia, Hawaii etc.)"

meaning:  First Muslim generation were not the only ones on earth that had many wives. Was the limitation to 4 wives only for Muslims? 

Does the Quran mention anything about women not being allowed to marry more than one man?

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51 minutes ago, andres said:

"So, when God forbade Muslims to marry more than 4 wives, was this ban valid for non-Muslims worldwide? (America, Australia, Hawaii etc.)"

meaning:  First Muslim generation were not the only ones on earth that had many wives. Was the limitation to 4 wives only for Muslims? 

Does the Quran mention anything about women not being allowed to marry more than one man?

If non Muslims follow this exemple it is good. 

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1 hour ago, andres said:

Christians and Muslims have very different approach to the Bible and Quran. Muslims demand that they must contain Gods perfect word, Christians see them as Human divinely inspired products. The Quran is written within a short period, the Bible during 1.000 years. The Quran edited under authoritative supervision, the 4 Gospels being written by persecuted rebels. The Hebrew Bible clearly illustrates how religion slowly developed from polyteism to monotheism. Old Judaism differs from younger. Christianity differ from Judaism. Beliefs and tradition slowly changes. The Quran seems to believe the Bible is all Islam. Muslims may think that Jews and Christians should follow all laws given in the Torah because God himself made those laws and Gods laws are, and have always been unchanged. Only Jews and Christians do not agree on this. We believe God can change his mind. This difference makes discussion very difficult.

 

Abraham had a wife and a female slave. Making his slave pregnant was in those days was not unethical, slavery not either. Today Christians regard both as unethical, and as such a sin. Cultures, rules and ethics change. The Quran was one of many such changes.

Correct me if I'm wrong but are you trying to say that Prophet Ibrahim(as) committed adultery? astaghfirullah

The Holy Quran is the final book that was given to all mankind. Why do you think there wasn't any other Holy Book after it? Because Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى didn't change His mind .

And by the way, your own Bible states that there was going to be another Messenger after Prophet Jesus (as), he himself stated that. 

 

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2 hours ago, alidu78 said:

If non Muslims follow this exemple it is good. 

Since there are as many men as women, would it not be better if every man had only one wife?

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1 hour ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but are you trying to say that Prophet Ibrahim(as) committed adultery? astaghfirullah

The Holy Quran is the final book that was given to all mankind. Why do you think there wasn't any other Holy Book after it? Because Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى didn't change His mind .

And by the way, your own Bible states that there was going to be another Messenger after Prophet Jesus (as), he himself stated that. 

 

The Bible does not blaim Abraham making a slave pregnant while being married to another woman. Not adultery, normal behavior. Had it been in Jerusalem year 0AD, Abraham and his slave had been stoned to death for adultery. 1.800 years later moral has changed.

I did not say there were no Book after the Quran. (you say)                       Mormons got a book from God. (they say)

Could you tell where in the Bible Jesus say there would be many prophets after him, false ones. I believe this has proven correct.

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1 hour ago, andres said:

Since there are as many men as women, would it not be better if every man had only one wife?

In many countries there are more women than men and that would help the countries where the fertility is low to have more children. 

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8 hours ago, alidu78 said:

In many countries there are more women than men and that would help the countries where the fertility is low to have more children. 

Name a few of those countries.

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8 hours ago, Sumerian said:

@andres Since when was your belief representative of all or majority of Christians? Many Christians believe the Bible is the "perfect word" and not a "divinely inspired human product".

Of course I am generalising. There are still Christians that believe the Bible is infallible and that God did create the World in 6 days. There are also Muslims that believe he did not. At leasi in Europe.

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10 hours ago, andres said:

The Bible does not blaim Abraham making a slave pregnant while being married to another woman. Not adultery, normal behavior. Had it been in Jerusalem year 0AD, Abraham and his slave had been stoned to death for adultery. 1.800 years later moral has changed.

I did not say there were no Book after the Quran. (you say)                       Mormons got a book from God. (they say)

Could you tell where in the Bible Jesus say there would be many prophets after him, false ones. I believe this has proven correct.

Jesus(as) states:

The sceptor shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes; and to Him shall be the obedience of the people

(Genesis 49:10)

The word Shiloh is a Hebrew word which means apostle/ messenger or the one to be sent to mankind. So Jesus was mentioning the fact there is going to be another prophet after him. It also states that the Messenger after him will not come from Judah, Jesus was from the Judah lineage, and Prophet Muhammed(sawas) is not from the Judah lineage.

Also in Isaiah 29:12

And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

This verse is related to Prophet Muhammed(sawas), where Angel Jibreel came to him and asked him to read

It also mentioned in the Holy Quran aswell.

 

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6 hours ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

Jesus(as) states:

The sceptor shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes; and to Him shall be the obedience of the people

(Genesis 49:10)

The word Shiloh is a Hebrew word which means apostle/ messenger or the one to be sent to mankind. So Jesus was mentioning the fact there is going to be another prophet after him. It also states that the Messenger after him will not come from Judah, Jesus was from the Judah lineage, and Prophet Muhammed(sawas) is not from the Judah lineage.

Also in Isaiah 29:12

And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

This verse is related to Prophet Muhammed(sawas), where Angel Jibreel came to him and asked him to read

It also mentioned in the Holy Quran aswell.

 

None of there are Jesus quotes. They are all from the Hebrew Bible. The Hebrew Bible was written more than 1.000 years before the Quran and does not mention Muhammed. Not Jesus either.

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2 hours ago, andres said:

None of there are Jesus quotes. They are all from the Hebrew Bible. The Hebrew Bible was written more than 1.000 years before the Quran and does not mention Muhammed. Not Jesus either.

Isn't the Hebrew Bible part of Christianity? Then if they are not Jesus's quotes, whose quotes are they? Isn't Jesus the one who wrote the Bible.

 

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One thing that I have found interesting or troubling is when Muslim groups (Sunni) join with far-left political action groups in the US to promote an agenda of some kind

 

Groups like the AAAN (Arab American Action Network) have allied themselves with ANTIFA (violent Communists & Anarchists), the National Organization for Women (NOW), and many other left-wing groups that are involved with the promotion of LGBT (homosexual) rights. Marches, fund-raising efforts, and other endeavors have seen cooperation between some Muslim groups and these other radicals

 

I wonder how these Muslims justify such involvement and cooperation with gay-rights activists, Communist atheists, and radical feminists? Obviously, they are drawn to these groups because of a shared interest in immigrant's rights, but it goes way beyond that.

(I have not seen any evidence of Shia Muslims engaging in such cynical opportunism here in the US)

 

So while we have Sunni Muslims rightfully declaring that homosexuality is forbidden within the Quran, they turn around and support groups who wish to legalize and normalize such behavior.

 

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2 hours ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

Isn't the Hebrew Bible part of Christianity? Then if they are not Jesus's quotes, whose quotes are they? Isn't Jesus the one who wrote the Bible.

 

The Hebrew Bible was written before Jesus. It consists of many Books written during the period 600-200 BC. 

 Christians use the Hebrew Bible because Christianity cannot be understood properly without the Henrrw Bible. We call it The Old Testament. The Bible also contains what we call the New Testament. In it you find 4 different Gospels and letters from leading Christians, written between 50-100 AD. 

Like Muhammed, Jesus never wrote anything himself. 

 

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On 23/01/2018 at 1:11 PM, Silas said:

One thing that I have found interesting or troubling is when Muslim groups (Sunni) join with far-left political action groups in the US to promote an agenda of some kind

 

Groups like the AAAN (Arab American Action Network) have allied themselves with ANTIFA (violent Communists & Anarchists), the National Organization for Women (NOW), and many other left-wing groups that are involved with the promotion of LGBT (homosexual) rights. Marches, fund-raising efforts, and other endeavors have seen cooperation between some Muslim groups and these other radicals

 

I wonder how these Muslims justify such involvement and cooperation with gay-rights activists, Communist atheists, and radical feminists? Obviously, they are drawn to these groups because of a shared interest in immigrant's rights, but it goes way beyond that.

(I have not seen any evidence of Shia Muslims engaging in such cynical opportunism here in the US)

 

So while we have Sunni Muslims rightfully declaring that homosexuality is forbidden within the Quran, they turn around and support groups who wish to legalize and normalize such behavior.

 

I think this is mainly because people find strength in numbers. Muslims being a minority in the West find it advantageous to work with groups on the left because of common stances on foreign policy, immigration, minority rights etc. but people feel like they need to embrace everything those groups stand for to truly fit the "progressive" test. In reality people's views are all over the place, you should work with different people on different issues, ultimately not everyone cares about every single issue anyway so I don't see why these divisive groups are a thing. I don't like Antifa and many groups on the left that try to shutdown speeches for being hate-speech etc. I believe in complete freedom of expression, if we take away other people's right to speak, they will try to shut you down when you criticize Israel and say it's anti-Semitic. 

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Just a few random points from reading through the thread...

We live in a world of single parents, abusive and violent parents, with alcohol or addiction issues, plain old bad parents etc. In such a world the gender of people who do love children and rear them well does not seem to me a major concern. 

Also I don't believe there is any indication that parents have any influence on the sexual orientation that the child goes on to develop. Where did all the gay children of straight parents come from if that is so? 

The causes of homosexuality are still not known and despite what gets posted here there is no 'cure'. This whole area of conversion therapy is very controversial (see Google) and often quite damaging for vulnerable individuals who feel the need to go through it. 

By all means don't vote for gay marriage if you disapprove. But gay marriage has no consequences for anyone apart from gay people. Here in conservative Catholic Ireland we were the first country to introduce it by popular vote. Nothing has changed for anyone except gays. Gays are happier, less frightened, less rejected, less ostracized etc.

On the point of disparate groups working together I like that people can find common ground and cooperate despite being opposed in other ways. Other examples relevant here would be the gay movement that organises in support of Palestine and against anti-Muslim bigotry. 

 

 

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