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historical reports

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salam.

didnt know where else to put this. so here it is. are historical accounts reliable? there is no hidden agenda here or something that i want to justify from a sunni perspective. couldnt care less about it. just asking an objective question, looking for an objective answer. are historical accounts reliable? is every historical account reliable? if not, then which ones are? try to answer each question in a separate paragraph/point.

wassalam.

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44 minutes ago, Hassan- said:

These are questions that @Qa'im can answer properly. 

I thought you mentioned about Mola Imam Mahdi عليه السلام (Peace Be Upon Him) . Qaim :D 

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8 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

which sources would you accept? and which would you reject? and why?

for example if you meet a man that you can tell is enlightened... then I will ask him about his sources, where if I meet a hypocrite I will see his sources..  

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50 minutes ago, kirtc said:

for example if you meet a man that you can tell is enlightened... then I will ask him about his sources, where if I meet a hypocrite I will see his sources..  

so basically, it would get down to whether you trust the person or not, correct?

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3 hours ago, kirtc said:

correct

so if i, for example, dont trust a source or person telling the story, i have full right to reject it/him, right? not setting my way to reject something which goes against me. just asking to establish a principle.

1 hour ago, power said:

To evaluate any historical accounts, the criteria should encompass  Source, Credibility, Reliability, without these components,  you are left with nothing but conjecture.

exactly. agreed. but that begs the question of how we would judge the credibility and reliability of the sources/accounts?

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37 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

so if i, for example, dont trust a source or person telling the story, i have full right to reject it/him, right? not setting my way to reject something which goes against me. just asking to establish a principle.

exactly. agreed. but that begs the question of how we would judge the credibility and reliability of the sources/accounts?

Simply by referring to a Secondary Source and then compare it with the primary source.

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Much of history would be lost for both Shias and Sunnis if we went purely by Rijal standards and assessed the reliability of each individual in the chain.

However, other factors come into play: number of corroborating witness accounts, background of the situation and whether such a thing is likely for the individuals , or if they had done it before, biases, sectarian leanings, what has been deduced as reliable already and the likes.

You're not going to get any chain of narrators telling you Ali ibn Abi Talib killed the most at Badr and name each individual. However we know through wide testimony from many reports documented by many independent historians that he was prolific on the battle field, was the main man taking on the fierce warriors of the opposition, and the likes. 

I'd say we need to look at history using a multi-faceted and holistic perspective. However, when someone uses dubious and weak reports to levy chargers of murder , adultery and such , you move from general history to serious accusation that could have major ramifications. So it depends on what the report is saying, the background, the number of reports and a whole lot more.

This is just my own opinion.

Edited by Intellectual Resistance

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

so if i, for example, dont trust a source or person telling the story, i have full right to reject it/him, right? not setting my way to reject something which goes against me. just asking to establish a principle.

yep... 

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16 hours ago, power said:

Simply by referring to a Secondary Source and then compare it with the primary source.

how do you mean? can you elaborate with an example what you mean?

16 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

Much of history would be lost for both Shias and Sunnis if we went purely by Rijal standards and assessed the reliability of each individual in the chain.

However, other factors come into play: number of corroborating witness accounts, background of the situation and whether such a thing is likely for the individuals , or if they had done it before, biases, sectarian leanings, what has been deduced as reliable already and the likes.

You're not going to get any chain of narrators telling you Ali ibn Abi Talib killed the most at Badr and name each individual. However we know through wide testimony from many reports documented by many independent historians that he was prolific on the battle field, was the main man taking on the fierce warriors of the opposition, and the likes. 

I'd say we need to look at history using a multi-faceted and holistic perspective. However, when someone uses dubious and weak reports to levy chargers of murder , adultery and such , you move from general history to serious accusation that could have major ramifications. So it depends on what the report is saying, the background, the number of reports and a whole lot more.

This is just my own opinion.

interesting. but dont you think it would sort of go into infinite regress? i mean, how do we know the background of a situation? through other historical reports? how do we come to know of other things you mentioned like biases, sectarian leaning and all? 

i agree with the point that we have to be careful when dealing with accounts which accuse an individual. but the quote part i bolded, i dont get that. i mean, i dont have any issue that Ali ibn abi talib was such in reality. i believe it. but how do we know through wide testimony? do you mean there are narrations about it? or are you saying that there are other ways of knowing historical events/facts apart from written accounts? like tawatur for examplle? i have a few follow up questions if you are talking about tawatur. apologies for my lack of knowledge of history. i never really gave any importance to it for this exact reason. i could never say i KNOW it happened.

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23 hours ago, just a muslim said:

salam.

didnt know where else to put this. so here it is. are historical accounts reliable? there is no hidden agenda here or something that i want to justify from a sunni perspective. couldnt care less about it. just asking an objective question, looking for an objective answer. are historical accounts reliable? is every historical account reliable? if not, then which ones are? try to answer each question in a separate paragraph/point.

wassalam.

Not every historical account is reliable, there are infact numerous hadiths that are unauthentic.

And it depends on which source you get it from.

 

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i found this. it talks about tradition/hadith. i believe this holds true for history writers/story tellers/news reporters as well, in all eras.

Those that tell you traditions will be of four types – there won’t be a fifth one.

1. Hypocrite

One will be a hypocrite who will portray Iman and is a Muslim just to show. He does not think it is bad, or a sin, to relate false things to the Holy Prophet

(S.A.W) intentionally. And when you see them, their persons will please you, and if they speak, you will listen to their speech; (Surah Munafiqun:4).

2. Doubtful

There is another who heard something from the Holy Prophet (S.A.W) but he did not remember exactly what he heard and did not lie intentionally and he has what he heard from the Holy Prophet (S.A.W) and he acts on it, and says that he heard it from the Holy Prophet (S.A.W). If Muslims knew that he had any doubt, then they would not accept it. If he himself knew he was doubtful then he would leave it.

3. Incomplete knowledge

The third type is a person who heard something from the Holy Prophet (S.A.W) what he ordered and then stopped it, but the person does not know, or he heard something that was stopped and after that the Holy Prophet (S.A.W) order to do it, but the person does not know it. This person remembered Mansukh (what order has been withdrawn) and did not remember Nasikh (what is current). If he knew it was Mansukh he would leave it. If Muslims knew the order was Mansukh when they heard, they would all leave it.

4. Truthful

The fourth is a person who did not associate any lie to Allah or His Prophet because he bore enmity towards lie, and feared Allah, respected and valued the Holy Prophet (S.A.W) and had no doubt. He remembered it the way he heard it. He did not add or leave anything out, remembered Nasikh and Mansukh, acted on Nasikh and left Mansukh.

so how do we know a person who lives today or, say 100, 250, 500, or 1000 years ago, truthful?

moving forward, listen to all words and follow the best of them :grin:

Quote

It's not so much that history is written by the victor, although it often is, it is that history is written by those with bias and authority, and many times once it is written, it becomes true because it is accepted by the majority as true

 

Edited by justAnothermuslim

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5 hours ago, just a muslim said:

how do you mean? can you elaborate with an example what you mean?

 

For example: The Hadith of Quran and Sunnah which is only quoted in Sahih Burkhari and its deemed weak, right so to determine whether Prophet (pbuh@hf) had stated such hadith, i would search other books to see if such narration exist by other authors who have given authenticity to the narration, that would be secondary source. 

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