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Maki D Cabarete

Did Ahlulbayt a.s found the Nation of Islam?

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In my view the NoI are just as much Shia as the Druze, Alawites and other ghulat sects are Shia. Ergo, they took the cover and trappings of islam in order to hide their fundamentally pagan and sometimes even materialistic beliefs.

The story about the black man who reverted from NoI to Shia is very good and I liked it. Thanks for posting it. God is going to judge us all, whether black or white, and there's no need for racially tinged sects like the NoI, or things like "Christian Identity", to pour wood on the fire of racial discord inside some delicate places like the US.

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On 2/4/2018 at 12:17 PM, LatinAmericanShia1991 said:

In my view the NoI are just as much Shia as the Druze, Alawites and other ghulat sects are Shia. Ergo, they took the cover and trappings of islam in order to hide their fundamentally pagan and sometimes even materialistic beliefs.

The story about the black man who reverted from NoI to Shia is very good and I liked it. Thanks for posting it. God is going to judge us all, whether black or white, and there's no need for racially tinged sects like the NoI, or things like "Christian Identity", to pour wood on the fire of racial discord inside some delicate places like the US.

Salaam Alaikum

Please, could you explain in this discussion, why you used the term ghulat in describing the Druze and Alawites, in your view of Shia.

Also, your view of the Lost Found Nation of Islam in the West (NOI), did you feel in some way a dislike or anxiety from this revolutionary Islamic group?

Thank you

Edited by Maki D Cabarete
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10 hours ago, Maki D Cabarete said:

Salaam Alaikum

Please, could you explain in this discussion, why you used the term ghulat in describing the Druze and Alawites, in your view of Shia.

Also, your view of the Lost Found Nation of Islam in the West (NOI), did you feel in some way a dislike or anxiety from this revolutionary Islamic group?

Thank you

we are not against any revolutionary Islamic group , our problem is about racism in any type , racism always caused disunity between Shia muslims but new generation rries to avoid it.

"Ghullu" in the words of the word is exaggerated, and in religious and religious beliefs it means that man transcends what he believes in. In peoples and nations, the overwhelming majority has been assigned to the Imams of Ahl al-Bayt, meaning in terms of prophecy or deification. Hence, whenever the word "Gullat" is used in nations and non-symbols, they mean those individuals or sects who believe in the that Imams of the Shi'a are gods god spirit advents on the Imams (as).

like as NOI says that God Advents on their leaders.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghulat

http://fa.wikishia.net/view/غالیان

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7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

we are not against any revolutionary Islamic group , our problem is about racism in any type , racism always caused disunity between Shia muslims but new generation rries to avoid it.

"Ghullu" in the words of the word is exaggerated, and in religious and religious beliefs it means that man transcends what he believes in. In peoples and nations, the overwhelming majority has been assigned to the Imams of Ahl al-Bayt, meaning in terms of prophecy or deification. Hence, whenever the word "Gullat" is used in nations and non-symbols, they mean those individuals or sects who believe in the that Imams of the Shi'a are gods god spirit advents on the Imams (as).

like as NOI says that God Advents on their leaders.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghulat

http://fa.wikishia.net/view/غالیان

The Lost Found Nation of Islam in the West is accused of racism due to the fact that the oppressor happens to be from another race. A story I would like to tell, if I may: Once upon a time, there was a plantation owner who wanted one of his slaves to do something that she said she would not do for anything. Well, this enraged the plantation owner to a degree where he ordered her to be lashed until the skin on her naked back was a bloody mess. The whole plantation of people was ordered to be present especially all the slaves, house and field, everyone. There was even a doctor present, who was on the plantation at the time, who stood as witness to the lashing. When the back of the slave was beaten and blooded, the lashings stop for the doctor to make the examination, he the doctor asked the slave girl, did she think about what the owner wanted her to do and will she do it now what he, the slave owner wanted. She, the slave girl, said no and that he the slave owner was nothing but a white devil, the doctor then told the slave owner what the girl had said, then the owner became more in raged and continued the lashing until the black slave girl was dead. In this story, we have the oppressor and the oppressed. My question is who is the the real racist, the slave owner or the slave girl who is dead due to the lashing. Also, what whould you call all the witnesses, the doctor included? The Lost Found Nation of Islam in the West will do what the Qur’an say do. They are not the oppressor to anyone.

Edited by Maki D Cabarete
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9 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

we are not against any revolutionary Islamic group , our problem is about racism in any type , racism always caused disunity between Shia muslims but new generation rries to avoid it.

"Ghullu" in the words of the word is exaggerated, and in religious and religious beliefs it means that man transcends what he believes in. In peoples and nations, the overwhelming majority has been assigned to the Imams of Ahl al-Bayt, meaning in terms of prophecy or deification. Hence, whenever the word "Gullat" is used in nations and non-symbols, they mean those individuals or sects who believe in the that Imams of the Shi'a are gods god spirit advents on the Imams (as).

like as NOI says that God Advents on their leaders.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghulat

http://fa.wikishia.net/view/غالیان

The phrase "in the person" or "in the existence"  is phonological.

Although, the Lost Found Nation of Islam in the West don't use the word existence for person in the phrase but we can say:

Person = Being

Being = Existence

It's a way of philosophical thinking, for example:

The first brother in the beginning of this discussion, provided us with something from the NOI Supreme Wisdom lessons, Lost Found Muslim lesson No. 2 question no. 16. 

Who is the 5%?

We should ask, 5% of what.

Some say it means a % of the population of the planet, some say it means persons with 95% intelligence, lacking 5% and some say it means both.

A % of a person's Intelligence or thinking or consciousness or intellect.

The 5%, with the above understanding is a way of saying, those who are with closeness or nearness to God.

Edited by Maki D Cabarete
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If you take a deeper look into the answer to this question No. 16, that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad gave pbuh, you will see the phrase Muslim Son. Muslim Son refers to those whites who have study and accepted Islam, they are not looked upon as enemies.

So, this is not about racism due to the color of one's skin but it's about Freedom, Justice, Equality and Islam for all people in all walks of life.

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6 hours ago, Maki D Cabarete said:

The phrase "in the person" or "in the existence"  is phonological.

Although, the Lost Found Nation of Islam in the West don't use the word existence for person in the phrase but we can say:

Person = Being

Being = Existence

It's a way of philosophical thinking, for example:

The first brother in the beginning of this discussion, provided us with something from the NOI Supreme Wisdom lessons, Lost Found Muslim lesson No. 2 question no. 16. 

Who is the 5%?

We should ask, 5% of what.

Some say it means a % of the population of the planet, some say it means persons with 95% intelligence, lacking 5% and some say it means both.

A % of a person's Intelligence or thinking or consciousness or intellect.

The 5%, with the above understanding is a way of saying, those who are with closeness or nearness to God.

Pholosophical not Phonological for the phrase "in the person" or "in the existence"

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15 hours ago, Maki D Cabarete said:

In this story, we have the oppressor and the oppressed. My question is who is the the real racist, the slave owner or the slave girl who is dead due to the lashing. Also, what whould you call all the witnesses, the doctor included? The Lost Found Nation of Islam in the West will do what the Qur’an say do. They are not the oppressor to anyone.

Edited 15 hours ago by Maki D Cabarete

Anyone from any race & religion that agrees with oppressor is as like as him/her is oppressor the black people always oppressed but they must not act now same as oppressors acted to them . nowadays any person from any race & religion oppressed  but if we isolate ourselves from a certain group that oppressed because of their race & religion & don't support them we have no difference with oppressors.

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15 hours ago, Maki D Cabarete said:

In this story, we have the oppressor and the oppressed. My question is who is the the real racist, the slave owner or the slave girl who is dead due to the lashing. Also, what whould you call all the witnesses, the doctor included? The Lost Found Nation of Islam in the West will do what the Qur’an say do. They are not the oppressor to anyone.

Edited 15 hours ago by Maki D Cabarete

Anyone from any race & religion that agrees with oppressor is as like as him/her is oppressor the black people always oppressed but they must not act now same as oppressors acted to them . nowadays any person from any race & religion oppressed  but if we isolate ourselves from a certain group that oppressed because of their race & religion & don't support them we have no difference with oppressors.

7 hours ago, Maki D Cabarete said:

Pholosophical not Phonological for the phrase "in the person" or "in the existence"

we don't classify Ahlulbayt (as) as gods but consider them as nearest persons to God(Allah) & classifying people by percent is not way of ahlulbayt(as) they care unbeliever equal to believer   because most of unbelievers oppressed by tyrants by keeping them in darkness & Ignorance .

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Please understand, the decedents of African slaves lost all knowledge of their own (Islam) due to more than 379 years of the worst form of slavery the world has ever known.

When Islam did arrive it was mixed with the cultures and the experiences of the people who came.

I don't know if those new emigrants who came in early 20th century to North America, expected to see all the Africans that were already here.

Black people, at that time were living under what was called Jim Crow Laws 1877 to 1965.

Before Jim Crow there was Black Code Laws and before that it was Slavery for blacks.

The man who introduced Islam to blacks in 1930, W F Muhammad twpadf, taught Islam in a mathematical way, that's why percentage is used.

Mathematics is a common language that is used to measure the intellect or conscious growth or stages of mental or spiritual resurrection.

Remember, blacks had no culture or religion that they brought from where ever in Africa they were brought from. 

Try to understand, blacks did not volunteer to come to the Americas, they did not freely emirgrate, they were brought against their will as slaves.

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10 minutes ago, Maki D Cabarete said:

Try to understand, blacks did not volunteer to come to the Americas, they did not freely emirgrate, they were brought against their will as slaves.

I watch roots series & somehow understand your situation but what I'm trying you that you most promote your taught & not remain in doubtful state by some teachings that have no shia Islamic source.:grin:

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@Ashvazdanghe Thank you for you clear words and perspective on this issue.

@Maki D Cabarete The NoI is a dangerous sect with warped beliefs. Louis Farrakhan is an extremist hate preacher.

As @Ashvazdanghe clearly said before in this thread, that blacks were oppressed in America for centuries doesn't mean they should take the garments of their own oppressors. That's clear to me. 

The NoI is an extremist sect with weird racist beliefs that fall outside the purview of true Islam. They are also very antisemitic, and while I see the point that somebody might be Anti-Zionist, that doesn't mean this should be some kind of free pass for sheer old fashioned antisemitism, such as what often happened in Europe before the two World Wars.

The NoI consorts with Neo-Nazis and white separatists. So much for an organization that tries to end white supremacy by fostering its advocates. The NoI regularly accuses Jews of being the masters of the Atlantic slave trade, which is not that farfetched, but hey, slavery wasn't even something exclusive to the Atlantic in the first place.

We mustn't forget that in the Muslim world, alone, there was a lot of slavery. Zionist Saudi Arabia abolished slavery only in the 1960's, under pressure from her Western allies and bedfellows. The Mamluks were famous medieval slave soldiers and later rulers of Egypt, and so were the Ghulams.

I've had Wahabi muslims call every Shia a kafir. We must be very mindful of this: oppression is everywhere, and as my shekh aptly said in one of his sermons, it can be found abundantly even in the very heart of the Muslim world. However oppression is not of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى and his rightful religion, but of defective man and his earthly institutions, or of extremist sects that seek the cover of true religion to spread their vile heresies. 

 

 

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Also relevant to this discussion:

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2002/american-black-muslims-neo-nazis-foreign-muslim-extremists-join-forces
 

Quote

 

In 1961, Elijah Muhammad, founder of the black supremacist Nation of Islam, met with Ku Klux Klan leaders at the Magnolia Hall in Atlanta. Although they had different ideas about the skin color of the master race, they shared the belief that blacks and whites should stay separate.

The following year, Muhammad invited American Nazi Party chief George Lincoln Rockwell to address a Nation convention in Chicago, even though Rockwell had often called blacks "the lowest scum of humanity."

 

In other words, the NoI is far away from the spirit of Martin Luther King, the post-1960's Democratic Party (after Strom Thurmond and the Southern types left it) and more like unto the spirit of fascism or reverse Jim Crow.

Malcolm X himself relented from his extremist beliefs before he expired. And there's still something good about him, you say. But the NoI is like Christian Identity: heretical pagan sect that seeks to create an ethnocentric religious ethos. Much like the Druze, who used Islam as a guise to cover up their native beliefs and also protect anyone from converting into their close-knit community.

Whereas the spirit of Islam is universal. Everyone can join, be they black or white. Some have posted videos of black ulama calling for the end of slavery, and that's very good. Islam won't prevent you, black man, from getting an important post as an ulama or marrying white women, even if they're non-Muslim. Even though some Arabs can be very racist.

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10 hours ago, Maki D Cabarete said:

Please understand, the decedents of African slaves lost all knowledge of their own (Islam) due to more than 379 years of the worst form of slavery the world has ever known.

When Islam did arrive it was mixed with the cultures and the experiences of the people who came.

I don't know if those new emigrants who came in early 20th century to North America, expected to see all the Africans that were already here.

Black people, at that time were living under what was called Jim Crow Laws 1877 to 1965.

Before Jim Crow there was Black Code Laws and before that it was Slavery for blacks.

The man who introduced Islam to blacks in 1930, W F Muhammad twpadf, taught Islam in a mathematical way, that's why percentage is used.

Mathematics is a common language that is used to measure the intellect or conscious growth or stages of mental or spiritual resurrection.

Remember, blacks had no culture or religion that they brought from where ever in Africa they were brought from. 

Try to understand, blacks did not volunteer to come to the Americas, they did not freely emirgrate, they were brought against their will as slaves.

And the cultures and religions that they may have had in Africa, those religions was brutality beaten out of slaves, causing many slave and runaway slaves to practice what they remembered of those religions and cultures in secret, like vodun or vodu or wudu, the practice of spiritual cleansing.

In many places in the Americas today Vodun or wudu is practice in the open.

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11 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

I watch roots series & somehow understand your situation but what I'm trying you that you most promote your taught & not remain in doubtful state by some teachings that have no shia Islamic source.:grin:

"& Not remain in doubtful state by some teachings that have no shia Islamic source"

My brother shia is much much bigger than what you think. What I'm trying to convey to you is that the descendants of African slaves had to be restored not necessarily converted although, the first exponent was converted to teach the others into a knowledge of their own and not someone else's culture or take on the religion.

The Quran is the same Quran all Muslims read and I believe one key in reading the book is place, time and people.

The descendants of African slaves are not Arab, Turk, Iranian, Chinese, Indian, they don't share the same experiences or culture but they are beginning to respect others and others histories, the decedents of African slaves are now being made to develop on their own to find, who they are in life, lIke being restored to life from being spiritually dead.  

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2 hours ago, LatinAmericanShia1991 said:

Also relevant to this discussion:

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2002/american-black-muslims-neo-nazis-foreign-muslim-extremists-join-forces
 

In other words, the NoI is far away from the spirit of Martin Luther King, the post-1960's Democratic Party (after Strom Thurmond and the Southern types left it) and more like unto the spirit of fascism or reverse Jim Crow.

Malcolm X himself relented from his extremist beliefs before he expired. And there's still something good about him, you say. But the NoI is like Christian Identity: heretical pagan sect that seeks to create an ethnocentric religious ethos. Much like the Druze, who used Islam as a guise to cover up their native beliefs and also protect anyone from converting into their close-knit community.

Whereas the spirit of Islam is universal. Everyone can join, be they black or white. Some have posted videos of black ulama calling for the end of slavery, and that's very good. Islam won't prevent you, black man, from getting an important post as an ulama or marrying white women, even if they're non-Muslim. Even though some Arabs can be very racist.

What you say has been well noted.

Noticed you have maybe anxiety about those groups you talk about above.

Dr. King had a meeting with the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and I guess you are aware about Brother Malcolm.

Those times were a difficult time for not only the decedents of African slaves but the whole world being on the brink of nuclear distruction. 

The Blackman and Blackwoman were at a crossroad in North America in the time of those men, ether separation for independence or integration for equal association.

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9 hours ago, Maki D Cabarete said:

What you say has been well noted.

Noticed you have maybe anxiety about those groups you talk about above.

Dr. King had a meeting with the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and I guess you are aware about Brother Malcolm.

Those times were a difficult time for not only the decedents of African slaves but the whole world being on the brink of nuclear distruction. 

The Blackman and Blackwoman were at a crossroad in North America in the time of those men, ether separation for independence or integration for equal association.

I agree, that's why the whackos who want to carve off any ethnostate in the US are wrong. Not that the NoI is the only one: nowadays there are a lot of neo-nazi whackos who want to carve off a white ethnostate, and they are mostly the majority.

The thing is, Farrakhan and the NoI only enable these guys even further. I wouldn't invite Rockwell over to my place at any time of the day for anything.

Actually, I count myself lucky for living in a nice, tidy, liberal place like Latin America. Yes we had slavery, but things like segregation and apartheid never really happened in here. We're much better off than in the US, anyway.

We can be thankful for MLK's vision winning over. MLK is a man that elicits me genuine admiration for his deeds. I'm a fundamentally peaceful and liberal man, who would vote Democrat all the time if I was in the US, but I'm not a big fan of the regressive left in other countries nonetheless.

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10 hours ago, Maki D Cabarete said:

The descendants of African slaves are not Arab, Turk, Iranian, Chinese, Indian, they don't share the same experiences or culture but they are beginning to respect others and others histories, the decedents of African slaves are now being made to develop on their own to find, who they are in life, lIke being restored to life from being spiritually dead.  

hi Last words of Imam Hussain (as) : if you are unbeliever at last be freemen  

Imam Ali (as): people are two types ,they are your brothers in religion or same as you in creation

between  martyrs of Karbala  you can see from martyrs from every race even one of them was a black servant of  Imam Hussain (as) that I'm not deserve to be dust of his shoes ,he was free to go but stayed with Imam Hussain (as) and martyred beside him .

when we want all of can be each other & there is no need to separate each from each other in Iranian culture  & experiences bad & good matters shape it ,when you try to shape your culture & experience try to start it from good point .

I recommend you to search about Isalmic movement of Nigeria (IMN) that is a shia group that their spritual leader is Ayt Zakzaki that they want  integration and equal association with other people.:grin:

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

hi Last words of Imam Hussain (as) : if you are unbeliever at last be freemen  

Imam Ali (as): people are two types ,they are your brothers in religion or same as you in creation

between  martyrs of Karbala  you can see from martyrs from every race even one of them was a black servant of  Imam Hussain (as) that I'm not deserve to be dust of his shoes ,he was free to go but stayed with Imam Hussain (as) and martyred beside him .

when we want all of can be each other & there is no need to separate each from each other in Iranian culture  & experiences bad & good matters shape it ,when you try to shape your culture & experience try to start it from good point .

I recommend you to search about Isalmic movement of Nigeria (IMN) that is a shia group that their spritual leader is Ayt Zakzaki that they want  integration and equal association with other people.:grin:

Karbala is in every land, my brother

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8 hours ago, LatinAmericanShia1991 said:

I agree, that's why the whackos who want to carve off any ethnostate in the US are wrong. Not that the NoI is the only one: nowadays there are a lot of neo-nazi whackos who want to carve off a white ethnostate, and they are mostly the majority.

The thing is, Farrakhan and the NoI only enable these guys even further. I wouldn't invite Rockwell over to my place at any time of the day for anything.

Actually, I count myself lucky for living in a nice, tidy, liberal place like Latin America. Yes we had slavery, but things like segregation and apartheid never really happened in here. We're much better off than in the US, anyway.

We can be thankful for MLK's vision winning over. MLK is a man that elicits me genuine admiration for his deeds. I'm a fundamentally peaceful and liberal man, who would vote Democrat all the time if I was in the US, but I'm not a big fan of the regressive left in other countries nonetheless.

You are one of the lucky ones my brother. I left the US many years ago but I still have family there.

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