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Do we know who volunteered to be crucified?

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Abu Hadi

If the Quran is the word of God, and the only Book on Earth that God protected from corruption, then your argumentation makes perfectly sense. Everybody that knew this would also know that the Earth was created in 6 days, no matter what some professors might say.

But if the Quran is not the uncorrupted word of God, I think my suggestion above makes good sense.

And: No. I do not believe it was Muhammed that wrote the Quran. At least not if he could not write, as tradition says. But who knows, traditions were written down long after Muhammed was gone.

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5 hours ago, andres said:

the stories borrowed from the Bible.

Why in this "borrowing" miracles are coming out ?!

https://www.nature.com/news/2003/030822/full/news030818-15.html

http://www.speed-light.info/miracles_of_quran/honey_bees.htm

 

Compare the 2 links and tell me what's your explanations on it ?

Before year 2003 , no one knew about that.

If the information was not given to him from the main source of knowledge , God, then how.

Edited by Arminmo

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On 1/13/2018 at 11:41 PM, andres said:

I believe religions change and that Islam was a new religion, just like Judaism and Christianity were when they were born. Three different religions, born in three different times. We know when this happened. No trace of Judaism before first milennium BC, Christianity before first century AD, and Islam before 7th century AD.

 You believe Islam existed before Muhammed because the Quran says so.

Yes we are back at square one. Shall we stop here?

The flaw in your argument is that you assume that absence of evidence is evidence of absence. This is not the case. Just because you or anyone else is not aware of the situation before Judaism, does not mean we can conclude that there was no monotheistic religion at that time. 

I think your confusion is because you think that religion is like a club, and if your in the wrong club then your a "baddie". Islam doesn't have that approach. 

Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . 2:62

Hence, those who submit (muslims) to God are not limited to the Post Prophet Muhammad SAW era.  

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On 1/15/2018 at 9:03 AM, andres said:

Abu Hadi

If the Quran is the word of God, and the only Book on Earth that God protected from corruption, then your argumentation makes perfectly sense. Everybody that knew this would also know that the Earth was created in 6 days, no matter what some professors might say.

But if the Quran is not the uncorrupted word of God, I think my suggestion above makes good sense.

And: No. I do not believe it was Muhammed that wrote the Quran. At least not if he could not write, as tradition says. But who knows, traditions were written down long after Muhammed was gone.

The word used in the Quran is 'ayyam'. Ask any Arab what 'ayyam' means. It means period of time. Could be a day, month, year, century, or 1 Billion years. 

The word used in the Bible is day 'There was morning, there was evening, a ____ day' meaning 24 hour days. This is the account of creation from Genesis that every school child is taught. (This is the English translation)

Why oh why would you use this point to criticize the Quran. Most Evangelicals don't even 'go there' because they know that the Quran is accurate regarding this and the Bible (current versions) isn't. 

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13 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

The flaw in your argument is that you assume that absence of evidence is evidence of absence. This is not the case. Just because you or anyone else is not aware of the situation before Judaism, does not mean we can conclude that there was no monotheistic religion at that time. 

I think your confusion is because you think that religion is like a club, and if your in the wrong club then your a "baddie". Islam doesn't have that approach. 

Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . 2:62

Hence, those who submit (muslims) to God are not limited to the Post Prophet Muhammad SAW era.  

In th Bible we learn that Abrahams parents were worshipping old Semitic Gods. Due to the large gap between Abraham and the first record of his existence (>1.000 years) , this is not historically reliable. Nothing in the Bible indicates that Islam was his religion. His religion could also have been Judaism or Shinto. Maybe all three religions already existed in Japan during Abrahamn time. It is true that absense of evidence is not proof that this was not so. It all is so unlikely that only those that believes the Quran is infallible will believe that the teachings of Islam existed before Muhammed.  Trying to preserve Laws from times long gone is problematic. Totalitarian states, be it Christian, Islamic, Communism or whatever, will not tolerate changes in the system. Opression of opposition is inevitable. 

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On 1/15/2018 at 4:34 PM, Abu Hadi said:

The word used in the Quran is 'ayyam'. Ask any Arab what 'ayyam' means. It means period of time. Could be a day, month, year, century, or 1 Billion years. 

The word used in the Bible is day 'There was morning, there was evening, a ____ day' meaning 24 hour days. This is the account of creation from Genesis that every school child is taught. (This is the English translation)

Why oh why would you use this point to criticize the Quran. Most Evangelicals don't even 'go there' because they know that the Quran is accurate regarding this and the Bible (current versions) isn't. 

Scientists order the Earth history in 15 periods (or so).,Periods again subdivided in lots of periods. This is only for practical reasons, Earth was created slowly over 4 billion years, a creation process that has not stopped. Mountains very slowly still form and disapear, continents move. So the Earth was not created in 6 periods either.

Until 200years ago or so, Muslims, Christians and Jews all believed Earth was created in 6 days. All translations of Bible and Quran told them so, and still does. I am very convinced this was also the meaning of those that wrote or recorded the originals.

Here is an example of old Islamic belief:

Sahih Muslim Book 039, Hadith Number 6707.

Chapter : The beginning of the creation and the creation of Adam (peace be upon him).

Abu Haraira reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) took hold of my hands and said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on Saturday and He created the mountains on Sunday and He created the trees on Monday and He created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and created light on Wednesday and lie caused the animals to spread on Thursday and created Adam (peace be upon him) after 'Asr on Friday; the last creation at the last hour of the hours of Friday, i.e. between afternoon and night.

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13 hours ago, andres said:

Scientists order the Earth history in 15 periods (or so).,Periods again subdivided in lots of periods. This is only for practical reasons, Earth was created slowly over 4 billion years, a creation process that has not stopped. Mountains very slowly still form and disapear, continents move. So the Earth was not created in 6 periods either.

Until 200years ago or so, Muslims, Christians and Jews all believed Earth was created in 6 days. All translations of Bible and Quran told them so, and still does. I am very convinced this was also the meaning of those that wrote or recorded the originals.

Here is an example of old Islamic belief:

Sahih Muslim Book 039, Hadith Number 6707.

Chapter : The beginning of the creation and the creation of Adam (peace be upon him).

Abu Haraira reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) took hold of my hands and said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on Saturday and He created the mountains on Sunday and He created the trees on Monday and He created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and created light on Wednesday and lie caused the animals to spread on Thursday and created Adam (peace be upon him) after 'Asr on Friday; the last creation at the last hour of the hours of Friday, i.e. between afternoon and night.

We, Shia, followers of Ahl Al Bayt(a.s) do not take Abu Huraira as a reliable source. He was a known liar according to our Scholars. 

You said 'Scientists order the earth history in 15 periods'. I studied geology in college, I never heard of these '15 periods'. Which scholars are you quoting, sources ? 

I'm trying desperately to follow your line of reasoning, but not with much success. The discussion has gone very far off the original topic. 'Who volunteered to be crucified'. Unless you can post something that has to do with the topic, I am considering this discussion closed. If you want to start another thread on a different subject you are welcome to do that. 

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12 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

We, Shia, followers of Ahl Al Bayt(a.s) do not take Abu Huraira as a reliable source. He was a known liar according to our Scholars. 

You said 'Scientists order the earth history in 15 periods'. I studied geology in college, I never heard of these '15 periods'. Which scholars are you quoting, sources ? 

I'm trying desperately to follow your line of reasoning, but not with much success. The discussion has gone very far off the original topic. 'Who volunteered to be crucified'. Unless you can post something that has to do with the topic, I am considering this discussion closed. If you want to start another thread on a different subject you are welcome to do that. 

You are right. This discussion is off topic and I do not wish to start a new topic. Just let me answer your question: 

Links to periods in Earths history:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geologic_time_scale#Table_of_geologic_time

And a short comment.

I am aware I quoted a Sunni Hadith, I am also aware that the Hadith was written long after Muhammed and quotes therefore unreliable. What I wanted to demonstrate was that Muslims (certainly Muhammed inclusive), like every contemporary Christian and Jew believed the Earth was created in 6 days. (Explaining the BigBang theory would be of no use to them. One more reason not to understand everything in our Books litterally). Still today there are Christians that believe God created the Earth in 6 days. Because the Bible cant be wrong. I guess you find Muslims and Jews thinking the same way today too.

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11 hours ago, andres said:

Nothing in the Bible indicates that Islam was his religion. His religion could also have been Judaism or Shinto. Maybe all three religions already existed in Japan during Abrahamn time

Do you believe Abraham was submitted to God?

If yes he was a submitter, in Arabic we call such a person a "muslim" eg one who has submission. 

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11 hours ago, andres said:

You are right. This discussion is off topic and I do not wish to start a new topic. Just let me answer your question: 

Links to periods in Earths history:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geologic_time_scale#Table_of_geologic_time

And a short comment.

I am aware I quoted a Sunni Hadith, I am also aware that the Hadith was written long after Muhammed and quotes therefore unreliable. What I wanted to demonstrate was that Muslims (certainly Muhammed inclusive), like every contemporary Christian and Jew believed the Earth was created in 6 days. (Explaining the BigBang theory would be of no use to them. One more reason not to understand everything in our Books litterally). Still today there are Christians that believe God created the Earth in 6 days. Because the Bible cant be wrong. I guess you find Muslims and Jews thinking the same way today too.

So now that you have admitted it is off topic, I am going to give one last response and then close this thread. 

1. I still don't see where you got the number 15 from in terms of stages of creation of earth. According to the wikipedia link you posted above, If you look at creation in terms of eons, there were 4, in terms of eras, there were 10, in terms of periods, there were 23. 

If you look at creation of the earth according to the 'Life Timeline' you posted, there were 6. Period 1, earth without water (also no life). Then Periods 2 - 5 with water on earth. Period 2 is water with no life, Period 3 is photosynthesis , Period 4 is Eukaryotes, Period 5 is Multicellular life, and Period 6 is life on land. I am not saying this 'Life Timeline' is what Koran was talking about when it said 6 periods, but it is one possible explanation amoung many. I could go deeper into this, but again, we're off topic so I'll keep it short. 

About the hadith, after I already told you that the vast majority of users on this site (who are followers of Ahl Al Bayt) do not accept hadith from Abu Huraira because he is a known liar and fabricator, you again used this hadith as a basis for your mistaken assumption that 'all' Muslims (you also said Muhammad inclusive, I guess you mean Prophet Muhammd(p.b.u.h) believed this also) accept that earth was created in 6 days. If you are using the common English definition of 'days' meaning 24 hour days, that is patently false. Because you repeated false statements not backed up with any evidence after they have been proven to be false, you are either very ignorant, are not good at reading English, or you are a chat bot. I am not sure which one yet. I am leaning toward chat bot. Thread closed. 

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