Jump to content
SoRoUsH

Do we know who volunteered to be crucified?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

23 minutes ago, andres said:

So you think Muhammeds grandfather indeed guarded a Kaaba full of pagan Gods? 

Quraysh (most powerful tribe of idol worshiper) gave the authority of custodianship to him, (not gaurding by soldiers, that one was done by themselves) .

custodianship: he took over the duties of watering and feeding the pilgrims .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Arminmo said:

Quraysh (most powerful tribe of idol worshiper) gave the authority of custodianship to him, (not gaurding by soldiers, that one was done by themselves) .

custodianship: he took over the duties of watering and feeding the pilgrims .

If Abdul-Muttalib promised that when he had his 10th Son he would the sacrifice ine of them at the Kaaba. He was religious all right, but this could not be Islam. 

Islam has not left any trace in the world before Muhammed. The Kaaba must have been totally pagan until Muhammed conquered Mekka. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, andres said:

sacrifice

Prophet Abraham  also wanted to do that, does that make him a wrong person?!

 

Quran 37:100 until verse 107

My Lord, grant me [a child] from among the righteous."

So We gave him good tidings of a forbearing boy.

And when he reached with him [the age of] exertion, he said, "O my son, indeed I have seen in a dream that I [must] sacrifice you, so see what you think." He said, "O my father, do as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the steadfast."

And when they had both submitted and he put him down upon his forehead,

We called to him, "O Abraham,

You have fulfilled the vision." Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.

Indeed, this was the clear trial.

And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice,

—————————————

the story was not narrated correctly in book of Genesis, because it was re-written by rabbies a millennium years after prophet Moses WRONGLY.

wikipedia book of Genesis:

Scholars in the first half of the 20th century came to the conclusion that the Yahwist was produced in the monarchic period, specifically at the court of Solomon, 10th century BC, and the Priestly work in the middle of the 5th century BC (the author was even identified as Ezra), but more recent thinking is that the Yahwist was written either just before or during the Babylonian exile of the 6th century BC, and the Priestly final edition was made late in the Exilic period or soon after.[7]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, andres said:

Islam has not left any trace in the world before Muhammed.

Again your back to to squar one, why do you ignore everything that I showed you,

Prophet Abraham was a Muslim, what does it mean? Any one that is submitted to Allah is called that, 

so it got continued to Ishmael, and to his Arabic descendants. 

Unfortunately some children of Ishmael went of the path of monotheism, and they started worshiping idols.

just a few remained being a monotheist, and I showed the western historian, and also Muslim historian, but you ignore everything and don’t want to accept the truth.

Edited by Arminmo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Arminmo said:

Again your back to to squar one, why do you ignore everything that I showed you,

Prophet Abraham was a Muslim, what does it mean? Any one that is submitted to Allah is called that, 

so it got continued to Ishmael, and to his Arabic descendants. 

Unfortunately some children of Ishmael went of the path of monotheism, and they started worshiping idols.

just a few remained being a monotheist, and I showed the western historian, and also Muslim historian, but you ignore everything and don’t want to accept the truth.

I believe religions change and that Islam was a new religion, just like Judaism and Christianity were when they were born. Three different religions, born in three different times. We know when this happened. No trace of Judaism before first milennium BC, Christianity before first century AD, and Islam before 7th century AD.

 You believe Islam existed before Muhammed because the Quran says so.

Yes we are back at square one. Shall we stop here?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, andres said:

I believe religions change and that Islam was a new religion, just like Judaism and Christianity were when they were born. Three different religions, born in three different times. We know when this happened. No trace of Judaism before first milennium BC, Christianity before first century AD, and Islam before 7th century AD.

 You believe Islam existed before Muhammed because the Quran says so.

Yes we are back at square one. Shall we stop here?

If you don't mind I'm asking you, what was your purpose of joining this site?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Mishael said:

Mohammeds forefathers had names like Abdul Uzza and Abd Manaf so they weren't monotheistic.

His father: 
The name of the father of the Prophet of Islam (PBUH) Abdullah bin Abdulmutallab [1] Bin Hashem and his mother, Fatimah, the daughter of Amrobn Ayati ibn Imran ibn Muzzum [2] is from the Quraysh tribe. [3] Some believe that he was in the year 81 before the emigration He was born into the universe. [4] And some of his birth date was written on the twenty-fourth year of the reign of Anoushirvan (554 AD). [5] 


His mother: 

Amen Bennett Wahb (d. 46 before the emigration / 576 AD) The Prophet's mother is the most honorable lady of Quraysh. She was a lady who was known for her purity. His father is Wahb bin Abdul Manaf ibn Zohreh ibn Kalab and his mother is Lamb Bennet Abdelazi ibn Uthman bin Abdulard ibn Qassi ibn Kalab. They have been told that his custody has been his uncle Wahib bin Abdmanaf. Aména married Abdullah bin Abdulmutallib, 54 or 53 years before his emigration, and gave birth to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) 52 years before the emigration. 
When the Prophet was only six years old, his mother, Amen, took her to Yathrib with her father, Abdullah, for graves. They stayed in that city for a month, and when he returned to the area of Abua, Aména became sick and died and was buried in the same area.Abdullah and Amnah had only one child, and that is the well-known Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). 

he religion and the parents of the Prophet (pbuh): 
Allameh Tabatabai says: The religion of Ebrahim (AS) was split and divided into two branches: the first branch that was in the Israelites, from Isaac to Yazid Yazım, Moses and Hazrat Jesus (AS). The other branch was among the Arabs, from Prophet Ibrahim (a) to Hazrat Yasa and Zhulakfel. 
"And I will mention Ismail, Elisha, Zolkhefl and My whole Elahiar" [14]. And remember Ishmael, Yasa, and Zhulakfel, that they are  all right. 

They were also part of their religion, in contrast to the first branch of the Hajj, and there was no work in the Torah and the Gospel.
The explanation is that the great Bani Isma'il was a man named Amr bin Lahi who apparently overcame the clan of the "timha" and overthrew them and became ruler of Mecca, and all of them were united and converted to the religion of Abraham (AS), but Amr sick On the orders of the physicians to change the climate to the Shamats (Syria, they traveled, and, under the influence of the people of Saman, who were idolaters, were idolaters and brought the idol of Hablah to Mecca and invited people to idolatry As a result, all of Saudi Arabia were idolized, except for the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) ancestors who remained alive and remained in the religion of Abraham (PBUH), and thus the Prophet (PBUH) also before the Prophet Muhammad Ruth was Abraham (AS). [15]

http://www.soalcity.ir/node/775

 

[5] - The Persian Encyclopedia, p. 2, p. 1673. 
[6] - The Dehkhoda Dictionary, vol. 9, p. 13866; Forough Eternity, C 1 - 2, p. 139. 
[7] - Forough Eternity, C 1 - 2, p. 139. 
[8] - Ibrahim Ayati, Prophet's History, p. 51-52. 
[9] - Kafi principle v1 p. 439. 
[10] - Asadullah Qaleb, v1 p. 13; Al-Tunbaye Walshraf, p. 169; Bharalanavar, 15, p. 125. 
[11] - Asadullah Qaleb, v 1, p. 13, Baharalanwar, p. 15, p. 125 
[12] - The History of the Life of the Prophet of Islam; Dr. Asghar Montazaryal-Qaem, p. 42. 
[13] - Kazem Mousavi Bojnourdi, The Great Islamic Encyclopedia, 2, p. 217; Ayana-al-Shi'a, p. 2, p. 312-313; Peace and theology, vol. 1, p. 131; Dehkhoda's vocabulary, the word "Amen"; The Encyclopedia of Farsi, the word "Amen"; Ibrahim Ayati, The History of the Prophet Muhammad, p. 52-53. 
[14] The Holy Quran, Mobarakeh, verse 48. 
[15] 665 questions and answers in the presence of Allamah Tabataba'i (RA), p. 6969

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The Prophet's ancestors were all Belivers [3 ]

Shi'a scholars have said that Azer is the mother's ancestor of Abraham , or his uncle's uncle because it has been proven to them that the fathers of the Prophet ( peace be upon him and his companions) are unanimous in their hearts , and the Shi'ite tribe has consensus on it. ...

Mullah Mohammad Baqer Majlesi in Bhararalanvar said: "The determination of the Immaculate Conception of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and the whole ancestor of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH & HP) Allah, Shiite Imamiyah have unitedly said that the parents of the Prophet of God and all his great ancestors until Adam Abu al-Bashr were Muslims (and believers in Allah), but also of the " Siddiqin " who were either the Prophet and the Imams or some of the Imams. thanks for concealment or other religious materials Islam express their Gazanak Dhand. "

And Sheikh Tabarsi, in the Assembly of the Al-Bialan, refers to the "Azer" mentioned in the Qur'an as the father of Abraham: "It is Azar Khan, the son of Ibrahim (peace be upon him), peace be upon him, and he is my cousin. He is my holy sentiment,'An al-'Abn al-'Abn al-'Allah and Allah Our companions - the Shia scholars - have said that Azer is the mother's ancestor of Abraham, or his uncle's uncle, because it has been proven to them that the fathers of the Prophet The Prophet (peace be upon him) and his followers are conscientious to all of them, and the Shi'ite tribe is in agreement ... "

And as you can see, in the words of these two great scholars of Shiites, there is a claim of consensus and this is happening, but this is also known to Sunni scholars that Fakhr Raziin his commentary says: "... and Qalat al-Shi'a: I am the Prophet (peace be upon him), our Prophet Muhammad (PBUH & HP), and our ancestors Khan Kafra ... [6] ; Shi'a have said that no one has been the Prophet (s) of the Prophet and his ancestors as infidels ... "

And it is generally used to refer to this Shi'a, which is a matter of incident and Shia consensus, as narrated from the late Majlesi and Sheikh Tabarsi.

But there are many differences among the Sunni scholars in this regard, and a number of them, like Siouti and some others, like Shi'a, believe that the parents of the Prophet and his ancestors were united, and, in particular, Sui'at in this regard, He has spoken in detail and has proven this point in terms of reason and quotation [7], and a group also considered them, and even Abdullah, the Prophet's father, as disbelievers and polytheists. [8]

 

Footnote [ edit ]

  1.  Ali Dawani, Islamic History from the Beginning to the Immigration.
  2.  History of Jacobi , vol. 1, p. 253.
  3.  Seyyed Hasham Rasouli Mahalati, Lessons from the Analytical History of Islam.
  4.  Bharalanavar , Feb. 15, p. 117.
  5.  مجمع البيان , 4, p. 322. Majmaolbayan
  6.  مفاتيح الغيب , ج 4, ص 103.Mafatih al Qayb
  7.  Refer to Masalak al-Hinfaa, p. 17, on the next page.
  8.  Refer to Fakhr Razi's commentary.

Resources [ edit ]

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Arminmo said:

If you don't mind I'm asking you, what was your purpose of joining this site?

To base a nation on a religious or political unchangeable idea, and impose this on all citizens, is not the way to a better world. The belief that the Bible was Gods perfect word has caused a lot of suffering. Wars between Cathlolics and Protestants, antisemitisme, crusaders and you name it. More and more Chridtians accept that the Bible can and will be  understood in many ways, resulting in many different congregations. Even accepting that a peaceful Islam could be Gods will for the Arab world and Iran.

Shia, Wahabi, Sunni, Al Qaida, Boko Haram, ISIS, you name them, all base their beliefs on the Quran, believing that the other congregdtions got it wrong. Force and opression is necessary to obtain a state where their specific form for Sharia can be implemented.

If funtamentalists could learn to understand, that the Quran is not a perfect Book that only can be interpreted in one way only, I think the Muslim world coud become a better place to live. Only a secular state can ensure people their personal freedom of religion. It could seem so easy. The Bible and the Quran say the world was creaeed in 6 days. Why is it so difficult to realise they cannot be Gods perfect word?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/13/2018 at 11:33 AM, andres said:

If not a pagan sanctuary, why did Muhammed have to clean the Kaaba from idols of 360 Gods?

"Access to the idol was controlled by the Quraysh tribe. The god's devotees fought against followers of the Islamic prophet Muhammad during the Battle of Badr in 624 AD. After Muhammad entered Mecca in 630, he removed the statue of Hubal from the Kaaba along with the idols of all the other pagan gods"

Because some pagans had put idols in it. Just like some idols were placed inside other holy sites, does not mean they become "pagan".

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, iraqi_shia said:

Because some pagans had put idols in it. Just like some idols were placed inside other holy sites, does not mean they become "pagan".

 

Arabs were pagans and the Kaaba was full of Arab pagan Gods. 360 of the kind. Muhammed made it a Muslim sanctuary after having conquered Mecca. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/13/2018 at 4:24 PM, andres said:

If Abdul-Muttalib promised that when he had his 10th Son he would the sacrifice ine of them at the Kaaba. He was religious all right, but this could not be Islam. 

Islam has not left any trace in the world before Muhammed. The Kaaba must have been totally pagan until Muhammed conquered Mekka. 

I dont think your listening, or you seem to be hell bent on being purposely ignorant. I have already explained this earlier :

On 1/12/2018 at 3:19 PM, iraqi_shia said:

Islam means submission, in the context, it means submission to one , true God. We say Prophet Moses AS, Lady Mariam God bless her, were all Muslims, eg those that submit to God. 

I find also your understanding of Islam utterly baffling. Islam is far more inline with the old testament and even biblical texts than current Christians.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

I dont think your listening, or you seem to be hell bent on being purposely ignorant. I have already explained this earlier :

I find also your understanding of Islam utterly baffling. Islam is far more inline with the old testament and even biblical texts than current Christians.

Yes, Islam is more similar to Judaism than Christianity. You can call them Muslims if you wish, this is not the therminology Christians and Jews use. No matter what, Jesus and His Mother did not belong to the same religion as Muhammed

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, andres said:

Jesus and His Mother did not belong to the same religion as Muhammed

Judaism is very similiar to Islam it should be similiar because it’s from the same god,

Are you saying religion of prophet jesus was different than Islam? Why? Proof?

because the religion that he had , was exactly like Islam.

Edited by Arminmo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

According to you.

Everything that we told him so far, he ignored, as if we told him nothing.

somethings not working right at his side !

 

Edited by Arminmo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Arminmo said:

Everything that we told him so far, he ignored, as if we told him nothing.

somethings not work right at his side !

 

It is because he is not seeking a debate, he does not ask questions in order to get answers, he is just trying to convince himself of his world view by denying whatever goes against it, ignore the things he cannot answer and repeat what is inline with his world view.

It is called being narrow minded. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

It is because he is not seeking a debate, he does not ask questions in order to get answers, he is just trying to convince himself of his world view by denying whatever goes against it, ignore the things he cannot answer and repeat what is inline with his world view.

It is called being narrow minded. 

I don't know how old he is, or what's his state of intellectual condition ! But, after all these years, and after 3206 posts that he had done, the other day, he didn't know what Ishmael had to do with Arabs ! I can't believe it.

Edited by Arminmo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, andres said:

Arabs were pagans and the Kaaba was full of Arab pagan Gods. 360 of the kind. Muhammed made it a Muslim sanctuary after having conquered Mecca. 

These massive generalizations are the source of your mistakes and confusion.

There were Jews, Christians, monotheists , atheists and polytheists in he Arab population.

The polytheists had taken over the kabaa and stored their idols in it. The Prophet Muhammad (ma God bless him), had managed to convince the people to abandon idolatry and move towards worshiping one God. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, andres said:

Yes, Islam is more similar to Judaism than Christianity. You can call them Muslims if you wish, this is not the therminology Christians and Jews use. No matter what, Jesus and His Mother did not belong to the same religion as Muhammed

 

Jesus and his mother, may God bless them both, both worshiped and submitted ("islam") to one God.

Or do you disagree?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Arminmo said:

Judaism is very similiar to Islam it should be similiar because it’s from the same god,

Are you saying religion of prophet jesus was different than Islam? Why? Proof?

because the religion that he had , was exactly like Islam.

Not only me, but all Christians would say Muhammed did not teach the same religion as Jesus. All Jews will say Muhammed did not teach their religion. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are three different religions. Even if we call them Muslims,  Sunni, Shia, Wahabi and ISIS are not entirely similar either. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Arminmo said:

I don't know how old he is, or what's his state of intellectual condition ! But, after all these years, and after 3206 posts that he had done, the other day, he didn't know what Ishmael had to do with Arabs ! I can't believe it.

According to the Bible and the Quran, Abrahams son Ishmael was the ancestor of the Arabs. If this information is true or not, is a matter of belief. Historically it is a myth. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, andres said:

all Christians would say Muhammed did not teach the same religion as Jesus.

The laws that we have and are deleted in your current changed religion, makes them similar to each other, don't use the word "All" think , use the word your own thinking.(if any exists!)

Edited by Arminmo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Arminmo said:

The laws that we have and are deleted in your current changed religion, makes them similar to each other, don't use the word "All" think , use the word your own thinking.(if any exists!)

The Bible was written before the Quran, so the Bible can not possible have borrowed from the Quran. Rather simple logic say that the opposite is possible. If the Quran has borrowed from the Bible, (the vast majority of persons and stories in the Quran are about Jews and their history, an indication this was so), it is the Quran  that have changed the stories borrowed from the Bible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, andres said:

The Bible was written before the Quran, so the Bible can not possible have borrowed from the Quran. Rather simple logic say that the opposite is possible. If the Quran has borrowed from the Bible, (the vast majority of persons and stories in the Quran are about Jews and their history, an indication this was so), it is the Quran  that have changed the stories borrowed from the Bible.

Its an endless circle:confused:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×