Jump to content
SoRoUsH

Do we know who volunteered to be crucified?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

12 hours ago, andres said:

Where does it say he practised Islam? He guarded the Kaaba in which there were statues of 360 Arabic Gods.

see the word rejected idolatry, 

So all people of that time, were not doing that:

 

during the period known as the Pre-Islamic period or Age of Ignorance, were seen to have rejected idolatry and retained some or all of the tenets of the religion of Abraham (إبراهيمIbrāhīm) which was "submission to God" (Allah) in its purest form.[1]

Source:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanif

Edited by Arminmo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Followers of the Shia school of thought believe, that Abdul Mutalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet(peace be upon him and his holy progeny), was a Muslim in the sense that he believed in monotheism, as all direct ancestors of the Prophet did, back to the Prophet Ibrahim (peace be upon him), who was the champion of Monotheism.

Abdul Mutalib was the chief of Quraysh in Mecca at the time when Abraha and his army came to destroy the Kabaa, the incident which is recorded in Sura 105, Al-Feel. Abdul Mutalib came to the camp of Abraha and demanded his camels back which had been seized by Abraha's soldiers. He was astonished that the chief of Quraish did not ask for the safety of the Holy House. 

In reply to Abraha's remarks Abdul Muttalib spoke a sentence, whose value and worth is still preserved. He said: "I am the owner of the camels. The House too has a Master who forestalls every intrusion upon it". 

In the Tafsir of Ibn Katheer regarding the Sura you can find the following prayer being offered by Abdul Mutalib:

Abdul-Muttalib said, while hanging on to the ring of the Ka`bah's door, "There is no matter more important to any man right now than the defense of his livestock and property. So, O my Lord! Defend Your property. Their cross and their cunning will not be victorious over your cunning by the time morning comes.'' 

In the book "Perfection of Faith and Completion of Divine Favor" written by the highly respected Shia scholar of the 4th century a.H., Shaikh as-Sadooq, the following hadith can be found: 

5 - Narrated to us Ahmad bin Muhammad as-Saigh that he said: Narrated to us Muhammad bin Ayyub from Salih bin Asbat from Ismail bin Muhammad; and Ali bin Abdullah from Rabi bin Muhammad Musalli from Saad bin Tareef from Asbagh bin Nubatah that he said: I heard Amirul Momineen (a.s.) say: “By Allah, my father, my grandfather Abdul Muttalib, Hashim and Abde Manaf never worshipped idols. He was asked: Then what did they worship? He replied: They used to face the Kaaba and pray according to the religion of Ibrahim (a.s.) and they followed only that faith.” [….]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Arminmo said:

see the word rejected idolatry, 

So all people of that time, were not doing that:

 

during the period known as the Pre-Islamic period or Age of Ignorance, were seen to have rejected idolatry and retained some or all of the tenets of the religion of Abraham (إبراهيمIbrāhīm) which was "submission to God" (Allah) in its purest form.[1]

Source:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanif

Only Muslims believe so, based on the Quran only. You omitted 10 first words in the sentence: 

More specifically, in Islamic thought, they are the people who, during the period known as the Pre-Islamic period or Age of Ignorance, were seen to have rejected idolatry and retained some or all of the tenets of the religion of Abraham (إبراهيم, Ibrāhīm) which was "submission to God" (Allah) in its purest form.[1]

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you want to deny the historian also? Or the historian that just gave a general view of all people of that time is right ?!

Edited by Arminmo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, andres said:

Only Muslims believe so, based on the Quran only.

By that logic,

Only Jews believe so, based on Rabbi re-written Torah only!

That name god was yahveh !

,Not Allah.

 

Tell me Andres, contents within which book has been verified? Which one not?

Edited by Arminmo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, andres said:

believe

Allah was the name learnt to prophet Abraham , and from him to Ishmael, and to his Arabic descendants,

Unfortunately, some children of Ishmael went off the path of monotheism, and they started worshiping idols, and they put the the name of Allah on idols, they also made three other idols, and they said these are his daughters also.

All children of Ishmael did not become polytheist, some few remained monotheist. And they just worshiped Allah.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

 سلام brother, 

It seems to me that the sanad isn't acceptable.

W. Salam.

The chain would be acceptable to quite a number of scholars. I reject it not because of the chain [which would be fine as is given] but because there is some evidence that the book Masail Hasan b. Fadhal from which al-Saduq took it is a fabricated one.

12 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

1) With regard to the translation, it's my opinion, that the word روح should not be translated as "Soul." Multiple translators have done so, and I believe it's a significant mistake, which amplifies the confusion regarding the topics of souls, nafs, and spirits. "Souls" and "spirits/روح" are definitely two different things. 

I am not aware of this distinction. Maybe you can share at some point.

12 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

2) A very serious issue that we need to investigate is, why is it that the story of Isa (as), in Islam, is labeled as the only obscured story? It's worrisome when this story is surrounded by conjectures and obscurity in the Bible, too. A Christian or a non-muslim may understand this as a result of a human copying a story from available books/texts of his time. The story in the original source was obscured and confusing, and consequently, the copy version is also confusing and obscued. 

The Imam is supposedly saying that the matter [story] of no prophet was obscured than that of Jesus. His Life was unique and so was his death. This was of a necessity because God wanted to save him from death despite his enemies.

12 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

3) Where is the sky/السماء? The content implies that being raised from earth doesn't automatically entail that one is now in the sky/السماء. 

The cosmological model that the Qur'an presents requires study. In many verses السماء or its plural refers to 'heaven(s)' a spatial location. This is not to say that it is paradise or a place in the hereafter. Earth and the heavens are connected in this world and every day there is ascent and descent between the two. 

The heavens are not accessible to us humans. Even the Jinn are chased away from Sama al-Dunya [first or earthly heaven - where the constellations are - which is taken to be the lowest rung in a layered topology]. The سماوات are the spaces where most of the angels exist. Refer to the narrations on Isra' where the prophet travels quite a bit before the door for the first heaven being opened to him.

12 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

6) To state that God raised Isa (as) to السماء, a physical location,  to Himself/God (as 3:55 states),  is problematic. God is not located in السماء. So, how must we understand this? 

The Madhahib that are anthropomorphic have no problem with such verses because they believe that Allah is over his throne above the seven heavens. For those who do not accept this notion they have to rely on claiming that it is allegorical usage - meaning something like 'the heaven (s) is the seat of his power' and going up to him i.e. 'above' is used because it is more respectful than 'below'.

Edited by Islamic Salvation

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Arminmo said:

Allah was the name learnt to prophet Abraham , and from him to Ishmael, and to his Arabic descendants,

Unfortunately, some children of Ishmael went off the path of monotheism, and they started worshiping idols, and they put the the name of Allah on idols, they also made three other idols, and they said these are his daughters also.

All children of Ishmael did not become polytheist, some few remained monotheist. And they just worshiped Allah.

From where  have you got the info that there were Arabs that were monotheists from the time of Abraham until Muhammed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, andres said:

From where  have you got the info that there were Arabs that were monotheists from the time of Abraham until Muhammed?

"Zayd ibn Amr" was another Pre-Islamic figure who refused idolatry and preached monotheism, claiming it was the original belief of their [Arabs] father Ishmael.[22][23]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael

 

I don't see any problem in that, do you?

 

do you want to ignore the truth Andres?!!

Edited by Arminmo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/11/2018 at 12:18 AM, andres said:

The Quran says not much about Muhammeds ancestors (any of them mentioned at all?) Lots of Jews are mentioned thou. The only woman mentioned is Jesus mother. She was a Jew, following the Torah, a Book Muslims claim is corrupted. Where is the Arab line to Abraham? Nowhere. The Quran uses one borrowed from the Bible.

This is amazing.

I dont even know where to start. 

Who do you think the Prophets are ? Are they not the ancestors of Prophet Muhammad SAW? 

Islam means submission, in the context, it means submission to one , true God. We say Prophet Moses AS, Lady Mariam God bless her, were all Muslims, eg those that submit to God. 

There are many women referred to in Quran, for example the wife of Pharoah, lady Hajar etc 

As for the Arab line to Prophet Abraham AS, in the Bible we see that Prophet Jesus  AS was to be the king of the descendants of Prophet  Isaac AS, but the Bible also says God has plans for the descendants of Prophet Ishamel AS. Prophet Muhammad SAW is a descendant of Prophet Ishmael AS.  There are no further prophets after Jesus AS from the descendant of Isac AS. The problem Christians have is that they have also cut off the line of Ishmael, counter to the Biblical texts.

The Torah we have today is corrupted by definition, for example, can you tell us who wrote the book "kings" in the old testament?

Can you tell us who decided to reject the gospel of barnabus and keep the gospel of luke in the new testament? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Arminmo said:

"Zayd ibn Amr" was another Pre-Islamic figure who refused idolatry and preached monotheism, claiming it was the original belief of their [Arabs] father Ishmael.[22][23]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael

 

I don't see any problem in that, do you?

 

do you want to ignore the truth Andres?!!

We know there were Christians and Jews in Arabia when Islam was born. We also know that the Kaaba was full of Arabic Gods (360 of them). If it is true that Muhammeds grandfather guarded this pagan sactuary, he was certainly not Jew or Christian. However this info about Muhammeds grandfather could very well be a myth created a couple of centuries later.  What about Zaid ibn Amr? 

"Zayd travelled to Syria to question both Jews and Christians about their beliefs, but he was not happy with the answers of either group. According to later Muslim historians, he had "the religion of Abraham, following the natural form" and "worshipped Allah alone with no partner."[1]:296[5] Amir ibn Rabia, an ally of Zayd's brother al-Khattab, later said that Zayd had told him that he believed in the future coming of a prophet" 

Here it says "according to later Muslim historians he worshipped Allah". If this guy ever existed, he was an Arab convert to Judaism or Christianity. Muhammed had not yet introduced Islam. 

I am sorry. I know conservative Muslims believe Islam has been the unchanged religion since Adam. According to the Bible Abraham was the first to make a treaty with Israels God (Allah as you call him). According the same Bible Israelites sometimes broke this convenant and worshipped some of the many Kaananean Gods. From the Bible we know this happened as late as the middle of the first century BC. From Archeology and historical documents we also know that there are no traces of any monotheistic culture earlier than 3.000 years ago. The Bible is a very concrete proof that religion in the ME has changed over time. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, andres said:

If it is true that Muhammeds grandfather guarded this pagan sactuary, he was certainly not Jew or Christian. However this info about Muhammeds grandfather could very well be a myth created a couple of centuries later.

The Muhammad (pbu) grandfather was a Hanif person on religion of Ibrahim (as) 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_of_the_Elephant?wprov=sfla1

http://en.wikishia.net/view/'Am_al-Fil

http://fa.wikishia.net/view/عام_الفیل

Al-Ya'qubi says:

'Abd al-Muttalib was an unparalleled noble of Quraysh in those days, for God had granted him magnanimity He had granted no one else before, and quenched his thirst from the Zamzam well (in Mecca) and Dhu l-Harm (in Ta'if). Quraysh appointed him as referee for [issues relating to] their wealth. He fed the people in times of famine and hunger, so much that he had even fed the birds of the mountains. In this regard Abu Talib says:

When the hands of gamblers start to tremble (i.e. when the generous start to become stingy) we shall give people so much food that even the birds will eat from what is left.

'Abd al-Muttalib did not worship idols, and believed in the oneness of God. He was loyal to his pledges and started various traditions, some of which have been mentioned in the Qur'an.

Al-Ya'qubi cites himself in a narration that quotes the Holy Prophet (s), "God will resurrect my grandfather, 'Abd al-Muttalib, with the looks of the Prophets and the awe of the kings."

http://en.wikishia.net/view/'Abd_al-Muttalib

http://fa.wikishia.net/view/عبدالمطلب#/languages

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, andres said:

r than 3.000 years ago. The Bible is a very concrete proof that religion in the ME has changed over time. 

I don't understand why was Noah as blessed than.it is also in the bible 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@andres you earlier said we don't know how God fixed Jesus death.science rejects it.but we believe it anyway.then you again bring science in every single moment.man created science and  God created man.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, andres said:

Only Muslims believe so

Did you see the citation number 1 under that, he is a Western historian.

NotesEdit

  1. ^ Köchler 1982, p. 29.

 

 

Andres , I showed both , a western historian, and a muslim historian, which historian do you accept? None of them ?!!! 

 

That's called being "in a state of denial" ! 

Edited by Arminmo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, andres said:

According to the Bible Abraham was the first to make a treaty with Israels God

What ??!! You said According to bible???!!!!

Andres, are the contents re-wrote by rabbis by themselves into the the Torah "verified" or not??!!  The answer is not,

How do you want to know what they wrote is the truth??!

you yourself know that Andres, 

Andres, have Ever read "Wikipedia book of Genesis" or not???? Have you ever did that?? Nooo!

Edited by Arminmo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Arminmo said:

 


  1.  

 

 

Andres , I showed both , a western historian, and a muslim historian, which historian do you accept? None of them ?!!! 

 

That's called being "in a state of denial" ! 

Never mind the historians, the stories make not sense.

If Muhammeds grandfather believed that he should only worship God, it makes no sense that he would guard a pagan sanctuary with 360 Gods. When the myth formed the pagan sanctuary could be forgotten. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Arminmo said:

What ??!! You said According to bible???!!!!

Andres, are the contents re-wrote by rabbis by themselves into the the Torah "verified" or not??!!  The answer is not,

How do you want to know what they wrote is the truth??!

you yourself know that Andres, 

Andres, have Ever read "Wikipedia book of Genesis" or not???? Have you ever did that?? Nooo!

Who should verify the content of the Torah? Who should verify the content of the Quran? We know when they were written, but we dont know exactly how it happened. Are they true? This is personal belief, impossible to prove. 

In my opinion we cannot demand theTora (Bible and Quran) to be perfect history Books. Their stories are used to send a religious message. The story of the flood, is a very old story. It may very well have happened, but not in such extent that the stories say. Every time the story has been used in a new Book, it has changed a little bit, rewritten from memory. The Quran retells many stories from the Bible, Josephs for example but it is retold from memory, not copied. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, andres said:

Never mind the historians, the stories make not sense.

If Muhammeds grandfather believed that he should only worship God, it makes no sense that he would guard a pagan sanctuary with 360 Gods. When the myth formed the pagan sanctuary could be forgotten. 

This assumption of yours is wrong. It is not a pagan sanctuary. You seem confused about a great many things.

Im surprised you dont know the story, it is mentioned in the Bible about the desert of Paran and Ishmael, which is modern day Saudi Arabia. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

This assumption of yours is wrong. It is not a pagan sanctuary. You seem confused about a great many things.

 

If not a pagan sanctuary, why did Muhammed have to clean the Kaaba from idols of 360 Gods?

"Access to the idol was controlled by the Quraysh tribe. The god's devotees fought against followers of the Islamic prophet Muhammad during the Battle of Badr in 624 AD. After Muhammad entered Mecca in 630, he removed the statue of Hubal from the Kaaba along with the idols of all the other pagan gods"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, andres said:

If not a pagan sanctuary, why did Muhammed have to clean the Kaaba from idols of 360 Gods?

Because before his time, true god worshipers were in minority, they couldnt do anything against idol worshipers, but when prophet muhammad (pbuh) got the control of the city in hand, he destroyed all idols.

Thats why he said you seemed to be confused about many things.

Edited by Arminmo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Arminmo said:

Because before his time, true god worshipers were in minority, they couldnt do anything against idol worshipers, but when prophet muhammad (pbuh) got the control of the city in hand, he destroyed all idols.

Thats why he said you seemed to be confused about many things.

So you think Muhammeds grandfather indeed guarded a Kaaba full of pagan Gods? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, andres said:

So you think Muhammeds grandfather indeed guarded a Kaaba full of pagan Gods? 

Quraysh (most powerful tribe of idol worshiper) gave the authority of custodianship to him, (not gaurding by soldiers, that one was done by themselves) .

custodianship: he took over the duties of watering and feeding the pilgrims .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Arminmo said:

Quraysh (most powerful tribe of idol worshiper) gave the authority of custodianship to him, (not gaurding by soldiers, that one was done by themselves) .

custodianship: he took over the duties of watering and feeding the pilgrims .

If Abdul-Muttalib promised that when he had his 10th Son he would the sacrifice ine of them at the Kaaba. He was religious all right, but this could not be Islam. 

Islam has not left any trace in the world before Muhammed. The Kaaba must have been totally pagan until Muhammed conquered Mekka. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×