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SoRoUsH

Do we know who volunteered to be crucified?

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سلام, 

The conventional belief is that Jesus (as) was not crucified, and instead, a man was made to look like him, who was taken by the Romans. 

Do we know anything at all about this person? Was he a disciple? Was he a believer in Jesus? 

Thank you! 

 

(As always, I appreciate authentic/acceptable traditions from our Ahlul Bayt (as). ) 

Edited by SoRoUsH

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6 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

Salaam,

Unfortunately there isn't anything

Salam and thank you. 

This is a bit astonishing. 

When it comes to the details of the events surrounding Jesus's supposed crucifixion, the information seems to be scarce. 

Yet, this event is the most important event in Christianity, without which, Christianity wouldn't be as it is today. 

So, in dialogue with Christians, we're left looking dogmatic, when it comes to denying Jesus's crucifixion. We have no strong alternative theory. Even this story of the lookalike isn't found in acceptable traditions. 

Edited by SoRoUsH

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Once a Christian asked me a tricky question, if god raised him alive before the event, why to put effort and resemble a new one for them?

all I had to say was that , no one knows what was the plan of god.

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10 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

So, in dialogue with Christians, we're left looking dogmatic, when it comes to denying Jesus's crucifixion. We have no strong alternative theory. Even this story of the lookalike isn't found in acceptable traditions. 

It is found in Tafsir al-Qummi with a reliable chain, but I suppose you're referring to the book's turuq issues.

Here was my answer to a Christian on this issue:

While the apostle substitutionary theory is upheld as the formal Islamic alternative, I haven't found a reason to be absolutely certain about that. The reports on this subject are not strong, and Tafsir Ibn `Abbas and the Isma`ilis had different views than this. Still, our oral traditions posits that an apostle replaced Jesus, perhaps Judas (who committed suicide after the crucifixion, but the accounts differ on how), or perhaps Thomas who was called the twin of Jesus in Gnosticism ("Thomas" in Aramaic means twin), and was said to have gone to India right after the crucifixion.

When the Quran says that God "made it appear unto them", it is referring to the enemies of Jesus and not his apostles. I haven't found a reason to believe that the 12 apostles actually preached the trinity, crucifixion, resurrection, or original sin. If we were to say that the Jewish Christians, who were very few by the second century, were the true inheritors of the apostolic tradition, then the closest religion to theirs today would be Islam.

It is undeniable that the perception that Jesus was crucified was popular, hence the phrase "it was made to appear unto them". The event is mentioned even in non-Christian accounts (Tacitus and Josephus). But while the crucifixion was central to Pauline Christian theology, (1) it plays absolutely no role in the Didache, Epistle of James, Epistle of Jude, and Gospel of Thomas, which are all early works with apostolic roots, (2) The Gospel accounts of the crucifixion and resurrection are full of inconsistencies, contradictions, and coincidences, especially when their earliest manuscripts are taken into account, (3) The Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter (2nd century text) says that the one on the cross was a substitution, (4) Original sin and atonement are problematic theologically and rationally, were not really Jewish beliefs, and were never accepted by the Jewish Christians, who [I believe] had a stronger claim to Jesus than Pauline Christians.

Now what exactly happened, the Quran does not posit, nor can we know with much certainty. Some Muslims (particularly the Isma`ilis) have even suggested that Jesus was nailed to the cross, but not actually killed (salaba in Arabic means "death by crucifixion"), and this interpretation can be reconciled with the Synoptic Gospels if need be. The ethos of the Quranic account is that God saved Jesus, in the same way He saved the other Quranic prophets, and in the same way He would save Muhammad (s). Just as God delivered Noah from the Flood, Abraham from the fire, Moses from Pharaoh, and Salih/Shu`ayb/Lut/Hud from their communities, God delivered Jesus from his enemies, and God would similarly deliver Muhammad (s) from his enemies. There were indeed prophets that were killed, but the Quran's prophetic stories are largely allusions to our Prophet (s), addressing the affairs of his ministry, his family, his companions, and his future salvation (which happened).

Some of our polemical texts will highlight ambiguities in the crucifixion story, for example:

(1) Contradictions on who carried the cross (Mark 15:21, Matthew 27:32, Luke 23:26, and John).

(2) Contradictions on what was written on the cross. (Mark 15:26, Matthew 27:37, Luke 23:38, John 19:19)

(3) The lack of a clear resurrection story in the earliest manuscripts of Mark, which was probably the earliest Gospel.

(4) The witnesses of the crucifixion depend on the Gospel: some women from afar, or Mary and an apostle up close. (Mark 15:40-41, Matthew 27:55-56, John 19:25)

(5) Contradictions on what hour Jesus was crucified (Mark 15:25, John 19:14-15)

(6) Contradictions on what Jesus' last words were. (Mark 15:34-37, Luke 23:46, John 19:30)

(7) Contradictions on the number of angels or witnesses at the grave of Jesus.

(8) Questions on the original sin: its place in Judaism, why God would need blood to forgive, how a sacrifice can account for future sins, why God would need to wait thousands of years before sending Jesus to alleviate the original sin.

(9) John the Evangelist was seemingly quelling doubts about crucifixion by including a spear thrust into the side of Jesus, to make sure he was dead, which was not mentioned in the three earlier Gospels. (John 19:34)

(10) The Sanhedrin trial of Jesus has no record besides the Gospels, and the trial breaks tens of rules and procedures that are typical of a Sanhedrin trial.

(11) Pilate offered to free one of two men: Jesus, or a rebel by the name of "Barabbas" - in earlier manuscripts, his name was "Jesus Barabbas", meaning, "Jesus the son of the Father", it would be funny if the wrong "Jesus" was crucified.

(12) Belief in the crucifixion would basically negate his prophethood in Judaism, according to Deuteronomy 21:22-23, and this was probably by the Jews wanted Jesus crucified rather than simply assassinated.

(13) Jesus' descent into Hell would negate his Godhood; and is probably taken from Greek hero myth.

(14) A mass resurrection of saints in Matthew 27:51-53 is mentioned in 3 verses, but the account does not appear anywhere else, neither in the other Gospels nor in other texts, even though such a thing would've been notable enough to record; at least more notable than Jesus (as) riding a donkey into Jerusalem.

(15) According to the Synoptic Gospels, all of Jesus' apostles and family members forsook Jesus and never attended the crucifixion.

(16) In Mark 16, on the Sunday, the women went to anoint Jesus' buried corpse with spices - this was not a practice, as in Judaism a tomb is not re-opened after it is closed unless there is reason to believe that the person in it is still alive - so there is a subtle implication that these women believed that the one in the tomb was still alive, and needed to be sought for treatment.

(17) Jesus supposedly prophesied that he would be buried for 3 days and 3 nights, but he was only in the tomb for 1 day and 2 nights.

(18) In Matthew 12:40, Jesus compared his three day burial to Jonah's three days in the whale; but Jonah was alive in the belly of the whale and not dead.

(19) In Luke 4:10-12, Jesus quotes Psalm 91, which if you read in full, suggests that the Messiah will be saved by God and lifted up.

(20) Sacrifices were never crucified.

And Allah knows best.

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35 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

Yet, this event is the most important event in Christianity, without which, Christianity wouldn't be as it is today. 

It’s not just about that event, it’s about this false ideaology, that Paul , developed by his own mind, and he added that to their religion (based on the imaginary scene that those people saw):

the false ideaology is this :

in Jewish religion of today (and before !) and Islam , human child borns without sin. Just in a changed religion called Christianity human child borns with sin. That’s all because of some verses and ideologies Paul added to bible. Like:

Romans 5:12 “Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. By one man’s disobediance many were made sinners.”(letters of paul to roman, not letters of jesus to roman)

Paul said sin passed on and god was going to put death to children because of sin of parent. The things, that would be called injustice of god. So what is justice of god ? Justice of god is shown down:

Jews don’t accept this, it’s against law of Moses, deut 24:16
“Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.”

Against the word of jesus, Look 5:32 :” i have not come for the righteous , but for the sinners!!” So all of us are not sinful, paul did not pay attention while he was writing those letters. And he claimed by himself, that all of us are sinful.

Torah declared that men like Calev1 and King Josiah2 were faithful throughout their extraordinary lives. Moreover, because of their devotion to their Creator, Abraham and Daniel were the objects of the Almighty’s warm affection as He tenderly referred to Abraham as “My friend,”3 and Daniel, “beloved.”4 These extraordinary men of God did not merit these remarkable superlatives because they believed in Jesus or depended on a blood atonement. Rather, Scripture testified to their faithfulness because of their devotion to God and unyielding obedience to His Torah.

in islam also this is not acceptable, it’s against the word of god, “…No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another…” (Quran 6:164)

So when sin does not passes on, there is no need for sacrifice of Jesus for our sin, sacrifice story of Jesus is a lie. In Quran god is saying god raised Jesus alive , and another one was made to resemble him to them,and they took that one and killed him. Surah al-nisa 157

Now you know how paul changed christianity.

Edited by Arminmo

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Christians claim ,based on that false ideaology by paul, all of us are sinful.(they don’t pay attention, even from this corrupted changed rabbi re-written Torah that they have, there are still signs that those biblical characters, did not committed any sin during their whole life.

so what Paul is saying by himself is false.

Edited by Arminmo

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Do we know who volunteered to be crucified?

Salam. Most people would NOT say it was a volunteer. The man who was crucified was punished by God for informing the Romans where they could find Jesus, peace be upon him. It was treachery against Allah's prophet AS. 

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3 minutes ago, Hameedeh said:

Salam. Most people would NOT say it was a volunteer. The man who was crucified was punished by God for informing the Romans where they could find Jesus, peace be upon him. It was treachery against Allah's prophet AS. 

Sister, Can you tell us where is the source of this story? Because if it’s from those gospels written by multitude of unknown humans about century later, we can’t put it as a true fact, it’s just an assumption.

Edited by Arminmo

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1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

 

4 minutes ago, Arminmo said:

Sister, Can you tell us where is the source of this story? Because if it’s from those gospels written by multitude of unknown humans about century later, we can’t put it as a true fact, it’s just an assumption.

Salam you can see it on above quet 

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As I said , contents within gospels are not reliable ,unverifiable (by unknown writers) ,just assumptions.

Edited by Arminmo

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2 hours ago, Arminmo said:

Sister, Can you tell us where is the source of this story? Because if it’s from those gospels written by multitude of unknown humans about century later, we can’t put it as a true fact, it’s just an assumption.

The theory that Judas Iscariot was substituted on the cross instead was perhaps inferred from the Gospel of Barnabas. 

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30 minutes ago, Hameedeh said:

The theory that Judas Iscariot was substituted on the cross instead was perhaps inferred from the Gospel of Barnabas. 

 I read some where, the contents written in that gospel has contradictions with Quran, it is kinda similiar but...!

Edited by Arminmo

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36 minutes ago, Arminmo said:

 I read some where, the contents written in that gospel has contradictions with Quran, it is kinda similiar but...!

Of course the Gospels, those which are canonical and those which were rejected, do not totally match with Islam. Islam came to correct the misconceptions of the past religions, for example: Prophet Isa AS was not killed nor crucified [Holy Qur'an 4:157]. It has been a long time since I read The Gospel of Barnabas, but it does mention that Judas was the one on the cross. See The Gospel of Barnabas

http://islamicbulletin.org/free_downloads/new_muslim/barnabas_comlpete.pdf

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The Christan debate is really easy, cause having a ''God'' in human form is limiting his power, Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى could do that, but he could also show himself to all by his noor? What is the point of this donya if we all christans going to heaven according to Christans? That logic doesn't really make sense, and that is just one bit, and don't let me talk about the trinity.... 

We shias have the same concept but we will still be judged, and we will be put in the hellfire.

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16 minutes ago, Hameedeh said:

Of course the Gospels, those which are canonical and those which were rejected, do not totally match with Islam. Islam came to correct the misconceptions of the past religions, for example: Prophet Isa AS was not killed nor crucified [Holy Qur'an 4:157]. It has been a long time since I read The Gospel of Barnabas, but it does mention that Judas was the one on the cross. See The Gospel of Barnabas

http://islamicbulletin.org/free_downloads/new_muslim/barnabas_comlpete.pdf

One of the objections that Christians have about that gospel is that if it is from that time, why it’s been written in Spanish! language of that time was either Greek,Aramaic,... as if we give you your original Quran in Japanese language wont you laugh at us?!

so they don’t believe in it.they say it’s been modified.

Edited by Arminmo

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Jesus Christ volunteered as He is the only perfect man who ever has/ever will live. He loved so greatly that he subjected Himself to death, even death on a cross to purchase salvation for mankind. If man will accept His perfect gift and forgiveness.

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1 hour ago, Arminmo said:

One of the objections that Christians have about that gospel is that if it is from that time, why it’s been written in Spanish! language of that time was either Greek,Aramaic,...

The manuscript of The Gospel of Barnabas in Italian was found in the Imperial Library at Vienna. It is possible that the Italian manuscript was not an original document but only a translation of a Greek or Aramaic document (we don't know), but definitely the Italian manuscript implies that the Pope of that time was made aware of its existence. 

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1 hour ago, co2017 said:

Jesus Christ volunteered as He is the only perfect man who ever has/ever will live. He loved so greatly that he subjected Himself to death, even death on a cross to purchase salvation for mankind. If man will accept His perfect gift and forgiveness.

Who was the first person that said sin of Adam passed on(human child borns with sin) and we needed a sacrifice for that ?

why do you say others were not perfect ?

Edited by Arminmo

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6 hours ago, Qa'im said:

It is found in Tafsir al-Qummi with a reliable chain, but I suppose you're referring to the book's turuq issues.

سلام, 

Brother, could you reproduce that hadith here, so I remember the details again? 

Thank you! 

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Why do you think that Ahlul Bayt (as) have been relatively silent on the topic of Jesus's crucifixion? Other than it didn't happen. 

Why didn't they illuminate the situation to remove the confusion on this matter? 

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في تفسير علي بن إبراهيم حدثني أبي عن ابن أبي عمير عن جميل بن صالح عن حمران بن أعين عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال: إن عيسى عليه السلام وعد أصحابه ليلة رفعه الله إليه فاجتمعوا إليه عند المساء وهم اثنا عشر رجلا: فأدخلهم بيتا ثم خرج عليهم من عين في زاوية البيت وهو ينفض رأسه من الماء: فقال إن الله أوحى إلى أنه رافعي إليه الساعة و مطهري من اليهود فأيكم يلقى عليه شبحي فيقتل ويصلب ويكون معي في درجتي؟ فقال شاب منهم: انا يا روح الله فقال: فأنت هوذا فقال لهم عيسى: اما ان منكم لمن يكفر بي قبل ان يصبح اثنى عشر كفرة فقال له رجل منهم: انا هويا نبي الله فقال عيسى: أتحس بذلك في نفسك فلتكن هو ثم قال لهم عيسى: اما انكم ستفترقون بعدى على ثلث فرق فرقتين مفريتين على الله في النار وفرقة تتبع شمعون صادقة على الله في الجنة ثم رفع الله عيسى إليه من زاوية البيت وهم ينظرون إليه قال: إن اليهود جاءت في طلب عيسى من ليلتهم فأخذوا

الرجل الذي قال له عيسى ان منكم لمن يكفر بي قبل ان يصبح اثنى عشر كفرة واخذوا الشاب الذي القى عليه شبح عيسى عليه السلام فقتل وصلب وكفر الذي قال له عيسى تكفر قبل ان تصبح اثنتي عشرة كفرة).

`Ali b. Ibrahim from Ibrahim b. Hashim from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Jameel b. Salih from Humran b. A`yan from Imam al-Baqir (as).

Imam al-Baqir said, “Jesus promised his apostles [to meet them] on the night when Allah made him ascend to Him. So they gathered in the beginning of the night, and they were twelve men. He made them enter a house, then he came out to them from a well in the corner of the house, shaking the water off his head. Jesus said, 'Allah inspired to me that He will ascend me to Him this hour, purifying me from the Jews. Who from you will take my likeness to be cast upon him, to be killed and crucified, and to be [resurrected] with me in my degree?' A young man from them said, ‘I will, O Spirit of Allah.’ ‘Then you are him’, said Jesus. Jesus then told them, ‘There is someone among you who will deny me twelve times before morning.’ ‘Is it me, O prophet of Allah?’, one of them asked. ‘If you feel it in your heart, then you are him', said Jesus. ‘You will verily be divided after me to three groups,’ Jesus said to them, ‘two groups will be fabricating lies against Allah, to hellfire; and one group will follow Simon and will be truthful with God, to Paradise. Then Allah made Jesus ascend to Him from the corner of the house while they were looking at him.   

Imam al-Baqir then said: “The Jews came to arrest Jesus on that night. They took the man whom Jesus spoke to that ‘among you there will be someone who will deny me twelve times before morning’, and they took the young man whom the likeness of Jesus was cast upon. He was killed and crucified, and the one whom Jesus said to him that he will deny him twelve times before morning has blasphemed.”

-----

Some secondary sources say that the hadith above can be found in al-Kafi, but I personally did not find it. The above was taken from Tafsir al-Qummi. If you accept the book, then the isnad is authentic.

11 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

Why didn't they illuminate the situation to remove the confusion on this matter? 

It's possible that they did, but that we've simply lost the oral or written report. But in general, the Imams were in places that were entirely Muslim (like Medina), in a pre-globalized age, and so polemical topics were not as common.

Anyway, this is a reason why the occultation is so tragic. There is so much to ask.

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39 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

hadith above can be found in al-Kafi,

Can you show me a link to an online source for these books so I can do a search in them, specially for this one :تفسیر اثنی عشری (حسینی شاه عبدالعظیمی)

do they have English translation like you showed on top?

Edited by Arminmo

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