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Intercession and Tawassul in Shia Way

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Just now, Ashvazdanghe said:

Accepting shia islam is your choice I don't give a dawa:grin:

Any shia that you said is good:NH:

hahaha Love You

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On 1/7/2018 at 11:54 AM, wmehar2 said:

Of course, I will be specific then. also to @skyweb1987

39:3

Taking guardians other than Allah and invoking worship through them to be nearer to God, is for ALL guardians that are invoked.  Be those guardians Muhammad after his death, or any believers including those who give zakat and they bow, after their death. Or guardians such as shaitan.

You can take muslims alive to be allies/guardians, but they won't help you in death,  and you cant worship through them.

I'm not saying they must not take others as guardians, because 39:3 says those who took guardians other than Allah, AND worship them/worship through them.

5:55 says to take allies in Allah and his messenger,  and believers, etc.  But not worship through them.

There is a fine distinction.

Given the verses I mentioned before,  to me it makes logical sense to conclude tawassul is not permissible. for me personally. 

From Guardian you went to worship /dead etc...

Your intermingling of few terms tells me you did not read this thread I posted? May be you can respond there, starting with defining it, and articulate these terms and Concepts for clarity.

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1 hour ago, skyweb1987 said:

Brother the verse does not mention any thing about the "worship through them". This is only your supposition. No Muslim worships any one except Allah swt.

The following verse are sufficient for our evidcne:

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ

Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow. (5:55)

وَمَن يَتَوَلَّ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُا فَإِنَّ حِزْبَ اللَّهِ هُمُ الْغَالِبُونَ

And whoever takes Allah and His messenger and those who believe for a guardian, then surely the party of Allah are they that shall be triumphant.(5:56)

فَرِيقًا هَدَىٰ وَفَرِيقًا حَقَّ عَلَيْهِمُ الضَّلَالَةُ ۗ إِنَّهُمُ اتَّخَذُوا الشَّيَاطِينَ أَوْلِيَاءَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ وَيَحْسَبُونَ أَنَّهُم مُّهْتَدُونَ

A part has He guided aright and (as for another) part, error is justly their due, surely they took the Shaitans for guardians beside Allah, and they think that they are followers of the right (7:30)

وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ كَانَ مِنَ الْجِنِّ فَفَسَقَ عَنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّهِ ۗ أَفَتَتَّخِذُونَهُ وَذُرِّيَّتَهُ أَوْلِيَاءَ مِن دُونِي وَهُمْ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّ ۚ بِئْسَ لِلظَّالِمِينَ بَدَلًا

And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam; they made obeisance but Iblis (did it not). He was of the jinn, so he transgressed the commandment of his Lord. What! would you then take him and his offspring for friends rather than Me, and they are your enemies? Evil is (this) change for the unjust. (18:50)

So the Shaitan is addressed as the Wali other than Allah, instead of those who are appointed by Allah (the prophet and imams)..Certainly we do not take shaitan as our Wali .

The verses clarify that 39:3 addresses those who take shaitan as their Wali beside Allah swt. Those who have been selected as Wali by the permission of Allah swt and their followers (as per verse 5:56), have nothing to do with the scope of this verse..

"We only worship them that they may bring us nearer to Allah in position. Indeed, Allah will judge between them concerning that over which they differ'. (39:3)

Certainly we only worship Allah swt alone and do not take any God beside Allah swt like all Muslims.

 إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِى مَنْ هُوَ كٰذِبٌ كَفَّارٌ

"Allah does not guide he who is a liar and [confirmed] disbeliever." (39:3)

I like to mention the verse for  the confirmation of those Liars. on whom Allah swt has sent Lanah

The verse of Mubahila mentions 

فَمَنْ حَآجَّكَ فِيهِ مِنۢ بَعْدِ مَا جَآءَكَ مِنَ ٱلْعِلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْا۟ نَدْعُ أَبْنَآءَنَا وَأَبْنَآءَكُمْ وَنِسَآءَنَا وَنِسَآءَكُمْ وَأَنفُسَنَا وَأَنفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعَل لَّعْنَتَ ٱللَّهِ عَلَى ٱلْكَٰذِبِينَ {٦١}

003:061 Should anyone argue with you concerning him, after the knowledge that has come to you, say, ‘Come! Let us call our sons and your sons, our women and your women, our souls and your souls, then let us pray earnestly, and call down Allah’s curse upon the liars.

From the recorded history of mubahila it is mentioned "In this way, the Prophet (S) challenged the Christians. The next day the Christian priests came out on one side of the field. Also on the other side, the Prophet came out of his house carrying al-Husayn in his arm with al-Hasan walking along with him while he was holding his hand. Behind him was Fatimah al-Zahra (sa), and behind her was ‘Ali, peace be upon them all."

When the Christians saw the five pure souls, and how determined the Prophet is in his idea that he put the closest people to him at risk, the Christians were terrified and abstained from the proposed malediction (Mubahala) and submitted to a treaty with the Prophet (S).

We do not deny these verses (if you deny these and accept against these  it is your choice).. I have mentioned my view clearly based on the verses of quran in my previous post.

wasalam

worshipping through someone, especially someone who is dead, is the same as worshipping them,  in my book.

On this you and I hold different views, so I'll agree to disagree. 

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On 1/7/2018 at 2:19 PM, wmehar2 said:

worshipping through someone, especially someone who is dead, is the same as worshipping them,  in my book.

On this you and I hold different views, so I'll agree to disagree. 

My last post with the verses of quran has rejected clearly your objection and baseless conjecture.

The Quran is live and not dead and this holy book is never separated from the pure progeny of the prophet saw. ie Ahl albayat.

wasalam

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On 1/7/2018 at 2:19 PM, wmehar2 said:

worshipping through someone, especially someone who is dead, is the same as worshipping them,  in my book.

On this you and I hold different views, so I'll agree to disagree. 

The members of the progeny of the prophet saaw ie Ahl albayt are martyrs and martyrs are not dead as per the quran they are alive.

wasalam

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13 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

My last post with the verses of quran has rejected clearly your objection and baseless conjecture.

The Quran is live and not dead and this holy book is never separated from the pure progeny of the prophet saw. ie Ahl albayat.

wasalam

 

11 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

The members of the progeny of the prophet saaw ie Ahl albayt are martyrs and martyrs are not dead as per the quran they are alive.

wasalam

Only with hadith you can attempt to call my argument conjecture at best.  The events 

But we must agree to disagree. 

This could keep going endlessly.  We've already discussed before why I disagreed from Quran of martyrs being dead or alive. it's pointless to resurrect the issue.

You want me to focus on the WHO in mubahila rather than the WHAT/WHY... I simply won't do that. 

It's cool man, there's no way we're seeing eye to eye here and that's fine.  I don't think lesser of yourself or any who follow the reasoning you presented. 

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On 1/8/2018 at 11:47 PM, wmehar2 said:

But we must agree to disagree. 

It's cool man, there's no way we're seeing eye to eye here and that's fineI don't think lesser of yourself or any who follow the reasoning you presented. 

Thanks for your comments as highlighted above.:clap:

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Salam @wmehar2  I Recommend to read this

https://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/vol11-no1-no2/concept-love-shii-creed-sayyid-muhammad-rida-hijaz/concept-love-shii-creed#love-prophets-household

"the Messenger of Allah once asked his companions, 'Which 
ring of belief is stronger to hold on to?' They said, 'Allah and 
His Messenger know best.' Certain individuals among them 
said, 'It is prayer,' others said, 'It is al-Zakat (charity)', a few of 
them said, 'It is fasting', others said, 'It is Hajj and 'Umrah' and 
still others said, 'It is Jihad (hard work against the enemies).' 
"the Messenger of Allah then said, 'for everything you said 
there is a merit but is not such a ring. In fact the strongest ring of 
belief to hold on to is love for the sake of Allah, hate for the sake 
of Allah, support and love those who have received authority 
from Allah and to disassociate from the enemies of Allah.'" 
 

Share...Chapter: 56, Hadith: 1870, Number: 6

http://www.fourshiabooks.com/hadith/al-kafi/5/56/6

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Quote

worshipping through someone, especially someone who is dead, is the same as worshipping them,  in my book.

No Muslim worship other than Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى. The verse you are referring clearly talks about the polytheist. Most of the Muslims associate partners with Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى because of the obedience of Shaytan by disobeying Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى and when sometimes they give thanks or rely to creations when they should do all of this for only Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى.

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إِنَّ اللَّهَ وَمَلَائِكَتَهُ يُصَلُّونَ عَلَى النَّبِيِّ ۚ يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا صَلُّوا عَلَيْهِ وَسَلِّمُوا تَسْلِيمًا {56}

[Shakir 33:56] Surely Allah and His angels bless the Prophet; O you who believe! call for (Divine) blessings on him and salute him with a (becoming) salutation.
[Pickthal 33:56] Lo! Allah and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation.
[Yusufali 33:56] Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.

http://quran.al-islam.org/

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Lazy intellectual Audio book Almoraja'at

(Sunni shia dialogue )

‏‪Al-Murajaat :: Audiobook‬‏:‏

Then I was guided audio book from Lazy intellectual channel 

 ‏‪Then I Was Guided :: Audiobook‬‏:‏ https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1LqbRHLq_9MDnNnU4TEEqv9QbEMnYgEa

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On 1/8/2018 at 11:47 PM, wmehar2 said:

 

Only with hadith you can attempt to call my argument conjecture at best.  The events 

But we must agree to disagree. 

This could keep going endlessly.  We've already discussed before why I disagreed from Quran of martyrs being dead or alive. it's pointless to resurrect the issue.

You want me to focus on the WHO in mubahila rather than the WHAT/WHY... I simply won't do that. 

It's cool man, there's no way we're seeing eye to eye here and that's fine.  I don't think lesser of yourself or any who follow the reasoning you presented. 

Tawassul (Entreaty) to Imam al-Jawad (a)

According to consults of some Shi'a scholars, some Shi'as make tawassul to Imam al-Jawad (a) for increase in their daily sustenance and solution of their material problems and call him Bab al-Hawa'ij [Gate of Requests]. An example of such consults is quoted by the Second Majlisi from Abu l-Wafa' Shirazi who claimed that the Prophet (s)advised him in his dream to make Tawassul to Imam al-Jawad (a) in material issues.[94][Note 1]

According to a hadith Dawud al-Sayrafi transmitted from Imam al-Hadi (a), visiting the shrine of Imam al-Jawad (a) has great rewards.[95] Also in a letter to Imam al-Hadi (a), Ibrahim b. 'Uqba asked about visiting the shrines of Imam al-Husayn (a), Imam al-Kazim (a) and Imam al-Jawad (a), and Imam al-Hadi (a) mentioned visiting the shrine of Imam al-Husayn (a) more important and said that visiting all the three is perfect and has many rewards.[96] The shrine of Imam al-Jawad (a) and Imam al-Kazim (a) is in Baghdad, where Muslims and especially Shi'a visit. They visit his shrine in Kadhimiya and make entreaty to him. In the martyrdom anniversary of Imam al-Jawad (a), Shi'a hold mourning ceremonies, recite elegies and beat their chests.[citation needed]

[Mod Note: A lengthy copy and paste is not necessary. Read through the link below.]

Edited by Hameedeh
Mod Note

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Just Read this Book, It will Answer all of your questions :D :

 

1469385103.png

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On 1/6/2018 at 11:27 AM, wmehar2 said:

Allah SWT says:

إِنْ تَدْعُوهُمْ لَا يَسْمَعُوا دُعَآءَكُمْ وَلَوْ سَمِعُوا مَا اسْتَجَابُوا لَكُمْ  ۖ  وَيَوْمَ الْقِيٰمَةِ يَكْفُرُونَ بِشِرْكِكُمْ  ۚ  وَلَا يُنَبِّئُكَ مِثْلُ خَبِيرٍ
"If you invoke them, they do not hear your supplication; and if they heard, they would not respond to you. And on the Day of Resurrection they will deny your association. And none can inform you like [one] Acquainted [with all matters]."
(QS. Faatir 35: Verse 14)

يُولِجُ الَّيْلَ فِى النَّهَارِ وَيُولِجُ النَّهَارَ فِى الَّيْلِ وَسَخَّرَ الشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ كُلٌّ يَجْرِى لِأَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى  ۚ  ذٰلِكُمُ اللَّهُ رَبُّكُمْ لَهُ الْمُلْكُ  ۚ  وَالَّذِينَ تَدْعُونَ مِنْ دُونِهِۦ مَا يَمْلِكُونَ مِنْ قِطْمِيرٍ
"He causes the night to enter the day, and He causes the day to enter the night and has subjected the sun and the moon - each running [its course] for a specified term. That is Allah, your Lord; to Him belongs sovereignty. And those whom you invoke other than Him do not possess [as much as] the membrane of a date seed."
(QS. Faatir 35: Verse 13)

Allah SWT says:

وَإِنْ تَوَلَّوْا فَاعْلَمُوٓا أَنَّ اللَّهَ مَوْلٰىكُمْ  ۚ  نِعْمَ الْمَوْلٰى وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ
"But if they turn away - then know that Allah is your protector. Excellent is the protector, and Excellent is the helper."
(QS. Al-Anfaal 8: Verse 40)

لَّا يَأْتِيهِ الْبٰطِلُ مِنۢ بَيْنِ يَدَيْهِ وَلَا مِنْ خَلْفِهِۦ  ۖ  تَنْزِيلٌ مِّنْ حَكِيمٍ حَمِيدٍ
"Falsehood cannot approach it from before it or from behind it; [it is] a revelation from a [Lord who is] Wise and Praiseworthy."
(QS. Fussilat 41: Verse 42)

Allah SWT says:

إِنْ هِىَ إِلَّآ أَسْمَآءٌ سَمَّيْتُمُوهَآ أَنْتُمْ وَءَابَآؤُكُمْ مَّآ أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ بِهَا مِنْ سُلْطٰنٍ  ۚ  إِنْ يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلَّا الظَّنَّ وَمَا تَهْوَى الْأَنْفُسُ  ۖ  وَلَقَدْ جَآءَهُمْ مِّنْ رَّبِّهِمُ الْهُدٰىٓ
"They are not but [mere] names you have named them - you and your forefathers - for which Allah has sent down no authority. They follow not except assumption and what [their] souls desire, and there has already come to them from their Lord guidance."
(QS. An-Najm 53: Verse 23)

Do you know what these verses referring to? And do you consider Tawasul via the Imams and Prophet Shirk? 

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On 07/01/2018 at 7:19 PM, wmehar2 said:

worshipping through someone, especially someone who is dead, is the same as worshipping them,  in my book.

On this you and I hold different views, so I'll agree to disagree. 

Can you send me your book please. Would like to read it in shaa Allah 

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41 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Can you send me your book please. Would like to read it in shaa Allah 

Here It is : 

 

1469385103.png

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2 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

I only see a Pic file. It isn't a pdf. Can you send me a link to the book. Is that the one I asked the brother to send me? 

hahaha No :grin: The Brother I think did not write any book on this subject. He just mentioned that he believes asking from someone who is dead is shirk. You wanted proofs from those who believe that it is shirk to ask from dead Pious People (Momineen). This book is the Strong Proof for those People who say asking from dead is shirk. Here is the pdf Below:

https://archive.org/stream/EnglishTaqwiyatUlImanbyShahIsmailShaheedVersion01/02.English-Taqwiyat-ul-Imanby Shah Ismail Shaheed Version 01#page/n0/mode/2up

https://ia601000.us.archive.org/17/items/EnglishTaqwiyatUlImanbyShahIsmailShaheedVersion01/02.English-Taqwiyat-ul-Imanby Shah Ismail Shaheed Version 01.pdf

Use any of the 2 Links.

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7 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

I only see a Pic file. It isn't a pdf. Can you send me a link to the book. Is that the one I asked the brother to send me? 

You can even read The Book of Shaykh-al-Islam Muhammad Bin Abdul Wahaab Tameemi رحمه الله (Allah have Mercy Upon Him). The Book name is Kitab-at-Tauheed.

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On 1/10/2018 at 3:14 AM, MohammadAli1993 said:

Do you know what these verses referring to? And do you consider Tawasul via the Imams and Prophet Shirk? 

I beleive what the Quran says, I believe they wont hear me.  Tawasssul through someone who is alive I see from quran is okay,  namely the prophet, as he was alive during the revelation.

The  first people of the ummah were very different from us,  many born into paganism, while we with some semblance of an idea if islam.  it stands to reason (in my view) the people alive during the prophets lifetime could ivoke tawassul while he was alive.

I consider tawassul through imams and prophet who are not alive as a wasted endeavor, not quite shirk. Better served direcrly worshipping or praying/ asking Allah.

Because Quran says :

Allah SWT says:

أَلَا لِلَّهِ الدِّينُ الْخَالِصُ  ۚ  وَالَّذِينَ اتَّخَذُوا مِنْ دُونِهِۦٓ أَوْلِيَآءَ مَا نَعْبُدُهُمْ إِلَّا لِيُقَرِّبُونَآ إِلَى اللَّهِ زُلْفٰىٓ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَحْكُمُ بَيْنَهُمْ فِى مَا هُمْ فِيهِ يَخْتَلِفُونَ  ۗ  إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِى مَنْ هُوَ كٰذِبٌ كَفَّارٌ
"Unquestionably, for Allah is the pure religion. And those who take protectors besides Him [say], We only worship them that they may bring us nearer to Allah in position. Indeed, Allah will judge between them concerning that over which they differ. Indeed, Allah does not guide he who is a liar and [confirmed] disbeliever."
(QS. Az-Zumar 39: Verse 3)

Allah says hes the judge not me "Indeed, Allah will judge between them concerning that over which they differ."

If people truly beleive in tawassul it does not make them a liar.

Doesn't tell me they are in kufr or shirk.

and he says:

"O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray."
(QS. An-Nisaa 4: Verse 136)

And I would be inclined to believe  many of those participating in tawassul  believe in the above. 

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7 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Can you send me your book please. Would like to read it in shaa Allah 

:/  i was figuratively speaking...   by my book, i mean in my perspective .

and my perspective isnt necessarily right.

maybe someone doesnt intend to worship the dead, but believes thats a proper way, i dont judge or believe lesser.  i have my beleifs thst may not make sense to someone else.

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18 hours ago, Shah Khan said:

You can even read The Book of Shaykh-al-Islam Muhammad Bin Abdul Wahaab Tameemi رحمه الله (Allah have Mercy Upon Him). The Book name is Kitab-at-Tauheed.

haha....no thank you. it claimed Prophet Adam (as) made shirk in obedience. Na'uzubillaah.. . page 105/130 from english version of that kitab says 

He (Ibn Abi Hatim) also reports with

a Sahih chain from Qatadah (May Allah be pleased with him) that he said:

"They made partners in giving obedience along with Him but not in worship beside Him."

Edited by justAnothermuslim

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On 1/10/2018 at 10:26 AM, wmehar2 said:

I beleive what the Quran says, I believe they wont hear me.  Tawasssul through someone who is alive I see from quran is okay,  namely the prophet, as he was alive during the revelation.

The  first people of the ummah were very different from us,  many born into paganism, while we with some semblance of an idea if islam.  it stands to reason (in my view) the people alive during the prophets lifetime could ivoke tawassul while he was alive.

I consider tawassul through imams and prophet who are not alive as a wasted endeavor, not quite shirk. Better served direcrly worshipping or praying/ asking Allah.

Because Quran says :

Allah SWT says:

أَلَا لِلَّهِ الدِّينُ الْخَالِصُ  ۚ  وَالَّذِينَ اتَّخَذُوا مِنْ دُونِهِۦٓ أَوْلِيَآءَ مَا نَعْبُدُهُمْ إِلَّا لِيُقَرِّبُونَآ إِلَى اللَّهِ زُلْفٰىٓ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَحْكُمُ بَيْنَهُمْ فِى مَا هُمْ فِيهِ يَخْتَلِفُونَ  ۗ  إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِى مَنْ هُوَ كٰذِبٌ كَفَّارٌ
"Unquestionably, for Allah is the pure religion. And those who take protectors besides Him [say], We only worship them that they may bring us nearer to Allah in position. Indeed, Allah will judge between them concerning that over which they differ. Indeed, Allah does not guide he who is a liar and [confirmed] disbeliever."
(QS. Az-Zumar 39: Verse 3)

Allah says hes the judge not me "Indeed, Allah will judge between them concerning that over which they differ."

very interesting. the wahhabis use this verse to accuse other muslims as polytheists.

if you place verses 5:55-56 alongside 39:3, you cannot but will arrive at the conclusion that, verse 39:3 is talking about polytheists.

[Shakir 5:55] Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

[Shakir 5:56] And whoever takes Allah and His messenger and those who believe for a guardian, then surely the party of Allah are they that shall be triumphant.

verse [39:3]  talks about polytheists who take guardians besides Allah, saying "We only worship......".

no muslims worship Allah through creations of Allah, declaring at least 17 times a day, "iyya kana'budu, wa iyya kanas ta'iin".

On 1/10/2018 at 10:26 AM, wmehar2 said:

If people truly beleive in tawassul it does not make them a liar.

Doesn't tell me they are in kufr or shirk.

Only what Allah or His Rasul saww or His Ulil Amri say should matter, imo - Quran [4:59]

On 1/10/2018 at 10:26 AM, wmehar2 said:

and he says:

"O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray."
(QS. An-Nisaa 4: Verse 136)

And I would be inclined to believe  many of those participating in tawassul  believe in the above. 

of course. in addition to that, they believe in (among others)

[Shakir 4:59] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you;

[Shakir 9:16] What! do you think that you will be left alone while Allah has not yet known those of you who have struggled hard and have not taken any one as an adherent besides Allah and His Messenger and the believers; and Allah is aware of what you do.

[Shakir 9:105] And say: Work; so Allah will see your work and (so will) His Messenger and the believers; and you shall be brought back to the Knower of the unseen and the seen, then He will inform you of what you did.

Is it by design or mere coincidence that 3 entities are mentioned ie Allah, Rasul, the believers/Ulil Amri? general believers or special believers? none asked for clarification from the Prophet saww?

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5 hours ago, justAnothermuslim said:

very interesting. the wahhabis use this verse to accuse other muslims as polytheists.

if you place verses 5:55-56 alongside 39:3, you cannot but will arrive at the conclusion that, verse 39:3 is talking about polytheists.

[Shakir 5:55] Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

[Shakir 5:56] And whoever takes Allah and His messenger and those who believe for a guardian, then surely the party of Allah are they that shall be triumphant.

verse [39:3]  talks about polytheists who take guardians besides Allah, saying "We only worship......".

no muslims worship Allah through creations of Allah, declaring at least 17 times a day, "iyya kana'budu, wa iyya kanas ta'iin".

Only what Allah or His Rasul saww or His Ulil Amri say should matter, imo - Quran [4:59]

of course. in addition to that, they believe in (among others)

[Shakir 4:59] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you;

[Shakir 9:16] What! do you think that you will be left alone while Allah has not yet known those of you who have struggled hard and have not taken any one as an adherent besides Allah and His Messenger and the believers; and Allah is aware of what you do.

[Shakir 9:105] And say: Work; so Allah will see your work and (so will) His Messenger and the believers; and you shall be brought back to the Knower of the unseen and the seen, then He will inform you of what you did.

Is it by design or mere coincidence that 3 entities are mentioned ie Allah, Rasul, the believers/Ulil Amri? general believers or special believers? none asked for clarification from the Prophet saww?

You do know the rest of 4:59?

Allah SWT says:

يٰٓأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِى الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ  ۖ  فَإِنْ تَنٰزَعْتُمْ فِى شَىْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْأَاخِرِ  ۚ  ذٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا
"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result."
(QS. An-Nisaa 4: Verse 59)

Those in authority among us?  Its not too hard to probe to see who they are.

Logically,  this verse says obey Allah, messenger,  those in authority.

  Then after...

If we disagree with over anything,  then refer to Allah and messenger, absent the  mention of those in Authority...ulil amr.

Wait so we can disagree with those in authority!  because that's when we refer it to Allah and the messenger, when we disagree!  Meaning they dont have absolute authority.  Ulil Amr was left out of the second part of the verse  because they're ordinary believers with trust.

Had they absolute authority then the next part of 4:59  wouldnt say what it says. if we   Disagreeing, then refer to Allah and messenger. 

 let's not ignore the latter part of the verse:

"And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result."

The Ulil Amr are missing in this latter part.  Why?  Because there existed those in authority while the Prophet was alive,  that answers/gives a hint your question as to who these people are.

and then it ends with a condition of beleif in Allah and the last day, being best result.

what about when Ulil Amr, and the Prophet is not around?  Guess we just refer to Allah?

*****the people of the ummah didnt need to ask the prophet the clarification because it was clear to them what and who Ulil Amr were and this verses meaning...since they were there.  its not clear to us because we were not there, perspective is hard for us.*****

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frankly, i was expecting this. first thing first. will you now be gracious enough to admit, you were wrong when you applied verse [39:3] to some muslims? :grin:

4 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

You do know the rest of 4:59?

Allah SWT says:

يٰٓأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِى الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ  ۖ  فَإِنْ تَنٰزَعْتُمْ فِى شَىْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْأَاخِرِ  ۚ  ذٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا
"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result."
(QS. An-Nisaa 4: Verse 59)

i'm aware of it. i just quoted the most important portion of the message ie you have to obey Ulil Amri as you have to obey the Rasul (Prophet Muhammad saww), unconditionally. No mental gymnastic is required here.

4 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Those in authority among us?  Its not too hard to probe to see who they are.

Logically,  this verse says obey Allah, messenger,  those in authority.

  Then after...

If we disagree with over anything,  then refer to Allah and messenger, absent the  mention of those in Authority...ulil amr.

Wait so we can disagree with those in authority!  because that's when we refer it to Allah and the messenger, when we disagree!  Meaning they dont have absolute authority.  Ulil Amr was left out of the second part of the verse  because they're ordinary believers with trust.

hmmm...surely everyone can see the difference between these 2 sentences below (it does not mean the same thing)

And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger.

And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day.

And what you have written is only your conjecture.

4 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Had they absolute authority then the next part of 4:59  wouldnt say what it says. if we   Disagreeing, then refer to Allah and messenger. 

 let's not ignore the latter part of the verse:

"And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result."

The Ulil Amr are missing in this latter part.  Why?  Because there existed those in authority while the Prophet was alive,  that answers/gives a hint your question as to who these people are.

and then it ends with a condition of beleif in Allah and the last day, being best result.

what about when Ulil Amr, and the Prophet is not around?  Guess we just refer to Allah?

*****the people of the ummah didnt need to ask the prophet the clarification because it was clear to them what and who Ulil Amr were and this verses meaning...since they were there.  its not clear to us because we were not there, perspective is hard for us.*****

again all that is your conjecture. you see, a true believer will always say "We hear and we obey". the "hypocrites" will find it very difficult to accept this command for whatever reasons best known to themselves.

thus the second part of the verse is more like a rebuke to them.

moving forward, i would love to hear how

1. Quran only  

2. Quran and Sunnah

3. Quran and Ahlul Bayt

can help resolve this particular dispute? 

Jaza kallaahu khair.

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