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Mishael

Why must Murtadin be killed in Islam?

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2 hours ago, Mishael said:

Islam fastest growing, I know many ex Muslims myself and it's growth it's due to brith rate not conversion in general many studies show most coverts leave Islam within about 1-2-3 years people just can't live under Sharia or defend it. Also you've failed to give a verse regarding Jesus saying to kill those who defy his commandments if you give me a verse I'd be happy to answer. And keep in mind of even if Christianity did kill apostates in your mind that justifies Islam killing apostates. Greece has Christianity as its official state religion Muslims aren't killed at all. Usually aswell when people they abandon Christianity they leave it for Athiesm or Agnosticism rarely Islam. The Genocide first came when Cisneros came other then that it was a war with deaths going on both the Muslim and Christian sides so neither is justified and Cisneros interfered in the Churches efforts to convert the Moors through peaceful means so yeah he was so pious in Christianity that he labeled other Christians who didn't agree with him as heretics aswell so yeah I'm sure he was a good Christian. And by the way attacking Christianity isn't going to whoosh the argument about death penalty in Islam away.

The Issue of Killing & perfroming Sharia in non Muslims countries comes from Doctrine of Salafism not Shia & sunni Islam that harsh actions of Salafists lead  to people leave Islam

in Shia Islam  jurisprudence if a person leaves Islam first if he/she announced it & confirmed by 4 trustful persons he/she at first get about one month to repent the people not excuting because of their beliefs until they are not announce it publicly in some cases that happened  in Iran like Shahin Najafi & mr Abdi that declared they are not muslims they left Iran & didn't back.

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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6 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

The Issue of Killing & perfroming Sharia in non Muslims countries comes from Doctrine of Salafism not Shia & sunni Islam that harsh actions of Salafists lead  to people leave Islam

in Shia Islam  jurisprudence if a person leaves Islam first if he/she announced it & confirmed by 4 trustful persons he/she at first get about one month to repent the people not excuting because of their beliefs until they are not announce it publicly in some cases that happened  in Iran like Shahin Najafi & mr Abdi that declared they are not muslims they go out ouf of Iran & didn't back.

Shouldn't they have a right to return to their country without being killed. By the way many Iranian clerics threatened Najafi with death and put a bounty on his head.

Edited by Mishael

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12 minutes ago, Mishael said:

Shouldn't they have a right to return to their country without being killed.

they were aware of consequences of their works  & do it by purpose so they must obey the country rule until they don't back to Iran they have no problem anyway if they want back they don't kill immediately, they can repent & ask forgiveness from authorities only about Salman Roshdi the Fatwa of Imam Khomeini (ra) it is still continued about him.

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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59 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

they were aware of consequences of their works  & do it by purpose so they must obey the country rule until they don't back to Iran they have no problem anyway if they want back they don't kill immediately, they can repent & ask forgiveness from authorities only about Salman Roshdi the Fatwa of Imam Khomeini (ra) it is still continued about him.

Yeah why is that fatwa against Salman Rushdi still going on he even apologized for his book also nothing in his book is per see insulting of Islam it was just telling an event recorded in the Hadiths. 

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On 1/6/2018 at 1:04 AM, Mishael said:

The Father and the Son both had a divine eternal relationship with one another so there is no problem with God the Son praying or talking to God the Father. As I said they had an eternal relationship before Christ came down to the Earth as a man.

do you mean that you believe they are two different gods that have relationship together and who need to talk to each other?! I thought Christians believe God is one in 3 forms  and that's how they justify themselves to be monotheism !!!! If all forms are one why do they need to talk to each other?!

 

and the most important part I wonder why one God (son) is yelling and complaining on the cross to the other God (father) why father has left him alone?!!! 

 

Isn't that all a funny story?! A God complaining on the cross why to be left alone so that the human which himself has created put him on the cross?!!!!

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On 1/6/2018 at 2:56 PM, Mishael said:

Yeah why is that fatwa against Salman Rushdi still going on he even apologized for his book also nothing in his book is per see insulting of Islam it was just telling an event recorded in the Hadiths.

That hadiths that he used for his book is not accepted by Shia Muslim Maraji & Scholars  & are very week Hadiths from uncertain narrators just apologizing doesn't fix his error he must repent truly from it & if his repent will accept in this world he surly will has Great punishment on Judgment Day because his book cause serious damage to All muslim community that it will be continue until his book exists.

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On 1/6/2018 at 12:45 PM, Mishael said:

Islam fastest growing, I know many ex Muslims myself and it's growth it's due to brith rate not conversion in general many studies show most coverts leave Islam within about 1-2-3 years people just can't live under Sharia or defend it.

Dude, even if there are Muslims leaving, the conversion-desertion trend is in favor of Islam. And the funny thing is, in India, where I live, and where the Muslim population is the 2nd largest in the world, the fertility rates have been steadily declining over the years. Christian right-wing propaganda phrases like 'the Muslims breed like rabbits....wanna grow their numbers and take over the world' etc etc ain't just standing up to scrutiny.There are many reverts here on ShiaChat, moderators and Admins included, who have been Muslims for decades now, married and with children. So your claim that most new Muslims leave within 1-3 years holds no water.

 

On 1/6/2018 at 12:45 PM, Mishael said:

Also you've failed to give a verse regarding Jesus saying to kill those who defy his commandments if you give me a verse I'd be happy to answer.

Strange indeed!! I have linked two entire articles, and I am still being asked to give evidence!!

 

On 1/6/2018 at 12:45 PM, Mishael said:

And keep in mind of even if Christianity did kill apostates in your mind that justifies Islam killing apostates.

That was not even my main argument. All I wanted to show was that the rationale for this in all Abrahamic religions is the same.

 

On 1/6/2018 at 12:45 PM, Mishael said:

Greece has Christianity as its official state religion Muslims aren't killed at all.

Yup, but it isn't a theocracy i.e. it is not governed by the Canon law. It just grants a special status to the Eastern Orthodox Church, just like the Anglican Church occupies a special position in the UK. It is still a secular country.
A similar case is that of Syria; the 1973 constitution grants special recognition to Islam, and the Article 3 states that the President has to be a Muslim. But the country is secular and isn't governed by the Shariah.

 

On 1/6/2018 at 12:45 PM, Mishael said:

And by the way attacking Christianity isn't going to whoosh the argument about death penalty in Islam away.

Dude, you seriously need to look into things and understand what is being said before jumping your guns on the keyboard.
The idea wasn't to 'whoosh' the argument by 'attacking' Christianity, the idea was to reveal the fallacy behind your attempts to play holier-than-thou by attacking Islam.

Anyways, I'm done with you. Enough of this shifting-the-goal-post game for me. I'll keep quoting Canon Law and Apostolic and Patristic literature, you'll keep denying their authoritativeness; I'll keep trying to prove that this is how the early Church Fathers form Jerome to Gregory to Aquinas to Augustine understood these verses, you'll keep pushing your revisionist apologia  and continue your 'Islam-bad-Christianity-good' refrain. So there's not really any point in keeping arguing further. 

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5 hours ago, baqar said:

Yes, brother.

But unfortunately, Shias do not have a good coverage and so the majority of non-Muslims becoming Muslim are becoming Sunni, not Shia.

Very true, brother. And honestly, we are not as interested in dawah activities as the Sunnis. The Salafis have many websites designed to help new reverts, and just look at our indifference.
If anything, we scare away our new brothers and sisters with our cold, tribal behavior. This is just pathetic.

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15 minutes ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Very true, brother. And honestly, we are not as interested in dawah activities as the Sunnis. The Salafis have many websites designed to help new reverts, and just look at our indifference.
If anything, we scare away our new brothers and sisters with our cold, tribal behavior. This is just pathetic.

There are also dawah activités doing by shias but unfortunately sunnis have more money. 

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I think death penalty for apostasy is a good thing because that prevent a society to live in an atmosphere with a lot of blasphemy and other stuffs like that. Also that prevent a society to have bad influence in matter of spiritual issue. If a person want to apostate that is fine but he keep that for him and don't try to influence other. Now we could se that in most Muslim countries people respect religion or at least don't insult religion openly while in most western countries anciently Christian most people now don't care about religion  and even openly insulte and do mockery about religion. Also we could see that even in Muslim countries where death penalty is not implemented there is no such thing that homosexuality or adultery must be a norm or normal while in western countries where they totally separated religion from politics and don't criminalize apostasy that became normal. 

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On 05/01/2018 at 3:47 PM, Mishael said:

Had Jesus ordered killing for people when he came down with his message I would not have been Christian right now. The point is Christians aren't commanded to kill unless in self defense. In Islam killing is ordered that's the difference what's in the Old Testament was ordered directly from God to Israel and was made as a temporary covenant which Jesus did not abolish but fulfilled it. I'm not saying it never happened it did happen but God isn't commanding us Christians to do out and do force conversions, And keep in mind the Sharia all comes from the words of Mohammed and his companions not God as it claims. If Jesus ordered the killing to spread his message then I wouldn't be here believing in him.

Jesus did order the killings of masses. Have you forgotten about the Old Testament? 

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2 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Jesus did order the killings of masses. Have you forgotten about the Old Testament? 

Old Testament is no longer on us so it's irrelevant it was an order for Israel only not Christians.

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On 13/01/2018 at 3:04 PM, Arminmo said:

I think forum administrator should close this thread.

Mishael (the starter of this thread) declared that he converted from islam to christianity , as being a murtad, thats why he started all of this.

He is 15years of age so we can conclude that he wasn't Muslim by heart but walked towards Christianity instead of Islam. 15 years old is too young to make such a huge decision. 

So Mishael was never a Muslim (at least a knowledgeable one)

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4 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Jesus did order the killings of masses. Have you forgotten about the Old Testament? 

Old Testament was for Israel wheather he ordered it or not doesn't matter I'm not saying that no religion has completely peaceful holy books but Islam orders killings Christianity doesn't Old Testament is basically like a historical record God ordered the Israelites to only fight with people where disobedience and sin was rampant.

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On 1/13/2018 at 10:58 AM, AbdusSibtayn said:

Dude, even if there are Muslims leaving, the conversion-desertion trend is in favor of Islam. And the funny thing is, in India, where I live, and where the Muslim population is the 2nd largest in the world, the fertility rates have been steadily declining over the years. Christian right-wing propaganda phrases like 'the Muslims breed like rabbits....wanna grow their numbers and take over the world' etc etc ain't just standing up to scrutiny.There are many reverts here on ShiaChat, moderators and Admins included, who have been Muslims for decades now, married and with children. So your claim that most new Muslims leave within 1-3 years holds no water.

 

Strange indeed!! I have linked two entire articles, and I am still being asked to give evidence!!

 

That was not even my main argument. All I wanted to show was that the rationale for this in all Abrahamic religions is the same.

 

Yup, but it isn't a theocracy i.e. it is not governed by the Canon law. It just grants a special status to the Eastern Orthodox Church, just like the Anglican Church occupies a special position in the UK. It is still a secular country.
A similar case is that of Syria; the 1973 constitution grants special recognition to Islam, and the Article 3 states that the President has to be a Muslim. But the country is secular and isn't governed by the Shariah.

 

Dude, you seriously need to look into things and understand what is being said before jumping your guns on the keyboard.
The idea wasn't to 'whoosh' the argument by 'attacking' Christianity, the idea was to reveal the fallacy behind your attempts to play holier-than-thou by attacking Islam.

Anyways, I'm done with you. Enough of this shifting-the-goal-post game for me. I'll keep quoting Canon Law and Apostolic and Patristic literature, you'll keep denying their authoritativeness; I'll keep trying to prove that this is how the early Church Fathers form Jerome to Gregory to Aquinas to Augustine understood these verses, you'll keep pushing your revisionist apologia  and continue your 'Islam-bad-Christianity-good' refrain. So there's not really any point in keeping arguing further. 

Your websites show from the Old Testament which doesn't govern Christians. I'm not saying Muslims are trying to take over the world but they do have higher birth rates then anyone else you happening to know some converts to Islam who remained Muslim holds no water since many studies show that 75% of converts to Islam leave it within a few years while a few stay. Adherents of Islam was said to reach 1.9 billion in 2000 surprise surprise it didn't happen fastest growing religion is a media quote nothing more but it is towing fast with the number of adherents it births. Also Christianity is a spiritual religion unlike Islam it cannot be applied as a full blown theocracy because it's not meant to be a theocracy and you yourself just said how Christian scholars would use Christianity when applied as a theocracy to appease any desire they want and interpret the verses in anyway they choose which is why Christianity isn't meant to really be a theocracy. 

Edited by Mishael

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On 1/8/2018 at 12:28 PM, seyed.ali said:

do you mean that you believe they are two different gods that have relationship together and who need to talk to each other?! I thought Christians believe God is one in 3 forms  and that's how they justify themselves to be monotheism !!!! If all forms are one why do they need to talk to each other?!

 

and the most important part I wonder why one God (son) is yelling and complaining on the cross to the other God (father) why father has left him alone?!!! 

 

Isn't that all a funny story?! A God complaining on the cross why to be left alone so that the human which himself has created put him on the cross?!!!!

There is no problem with God the Son praying or talking to God the Father. As mentioned, they had an eternal relationship before Christ became a man. Since they are all one with essence yet each one isn't a separate God in its own right rather they all make up God.

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17 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

It is irrelevant whether is applies or not. Jesus did order the killing and he cursed Adam and Eve. 

Adam and Eve cursed themselves when they listened to Satan instead of God when they did this they condemned themselves.

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On 1/13/2018 at 6:04 PM, Arminmo said:

I think forum administrator should close this thread.

Mishael (the starter of this thread) declared that he converted from islam to christianity , as being a murtad, thats why he started all of this.

What does that mean exactly?

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23 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

It is irrelevant whether is applies or not. Jesus did order the killing and he cursed Adam and Eve. 

Brother, that’s not true, the word “ curse” was inserted into Torah by rabbis by themselves, as you know , torah of today does not resemble the original Torah. Death is a law by god and part of the world that we live in. No curse.

about omition of laws , I discussed with him in this thread:

 

case is closed, don’t discuss with him anymore about the laws.

Edited by Arminmo

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2 minutes ago, Arminmo said:

Brother, that’s not true, the world “ curse” was inserted into Torah by rabbis by themselves, as you know , torah of today does not resemble the original Torah. Death is a law by god and part of the world that we live in. No curse.

about omition of laws , I discussed with him in this thread:

 

case is closed, don’t discuss with him anymore about the laws.

Do you have proof it was inserted I don't understand what you mean I can discuss with you from now until the day the world ends so long as I live until then. We condemned ourselves when we disobeyed God and we still disobey him. Paul didn't delete anything you've failed to prove it as I showe you the verse you quoted from is about how Jesus fulfilled the law.

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