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Mishael

Why must Murtadin be killed in Islam?

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6 minutes ago, Shi3i_jadeed said:

And where do these "rights" you are talking about come from? Read the old testament, in that God orders the Israelites to put entire cities to the sword and kill all the men women and children expect the virgin girls who the Israelites are to take for themselves. Keep in mind in Christianity, Jesus is God that means the prince of peace ordered women and children to be put to the sword. One must also keep in mind the jewish expectations of the messiah which was someone who would be a conqueror who would subjugate all nations to his will and yes this includes slaughtering his enemies. The second coming for Christians would be the fulfillment of this. A tyrant fights for his personal gain to impose falsehood on people. Freedom of belief and free speech is not a biblical value AT ALL, it is a modern western value which you are conflating with Christianity. Either way you cannot escape violence in any tradition. 

Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament so Christians are to follow the Jesus not the Old Testament. Back then sure violence was common throughout the world. Sure there is violence in any tradition Christianity doesn't actively preach violence like Islam does and sure you can say Christians were one of the most violent people on the Earth yeah that's true but I emphasize on the term "Christians". Also who knows maybe those women and children who were killed young were spared from the polytheism and wicked ways of their people and forgiven by God in the afterlife. Keep in mind aswell the difference between the violence in the Old Testament is God is telling the Israelites to fight against the nations that want them destroyed a such as the Assyrians and Babylonians or Caananites, the OlD Testament was a temporary covenant made for the children of Israel Jesus was sent to all the world and when he was a literal fulfillment of the Old Testament.

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11 minutes ago, Mishael said:

Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament so Christians are to follow the Jesus not the Old Testament. Back then sure violence was common throughout the world. Sure there is violence in any tradition Christianity doesn't actively preach violence like Islam does and sure you can say Christians were one of the most violent people on the Earth yeah that's true but I emphasize on the term "Christians". Also who knows maybe those women and children who were killed young were spared from the polytheism and wicked ways of their people and forgiven by God in the afterlife. Keep in mind aswell the difference between the violence in the Old Testament is God is telling the Israelites to fight against the nations that want them destroyed a such as the Assyrians and Babylonians or Caananites, the OlD Testament was a temporary covenant made for the children of Israel Jesus was sent to all the world and when he was a literal fulfillment of the Old Testament.

The reason for the slaughtering I was talking about was not because of existential danger to the children of Israel but because God gave them the land and God told them to "cleanse" the land. Basically do a holocaust against the native inhabitants. Saying it is just the old testament is a cop-out and does not confront the reality of the situation. If you accept that it was moral to murder women and children then basically any moral criticism goes out the window. You cannot say on one hand that Islam, which if far less brutal than the old testament, is immoral and uphold that actions of the prophets in the old testament were moral. This is a contradiction. If Jesus is the fulfillment of the Davidic Messiah that the jews were waiting for that means he will return to conquer the earth and subjugate all nations with an iron rod. 

Edited by Shi3i_jadeed

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Just now, Shi3i_jadeed said:

The reason for the slaughtering I was talking about was not because of existential danger to the children of Israel but because God gave them the land and God told them to "cleanse" the land. Basically do a holocaust against the native inhabitants. Saying it is just the old testament is a cop-out and does not confront the reality of the situation. If you accept that it was moral to murder women and children then basically any moral criticism goes out the window. You cannot say on one hand that Islam, which if far less brutal than the old testament, is immoral and uphold that actions of the prophet in the old testament were moral. This is a contradiction. If Jesus is the fulfillment of the Davidic Messiah that the jews were waiting for that means he will return to conquer the earth and subjugate all nation with an iron rod. 

The prophets were men at the end of the day and had sins like other men only Jesus was perfect so we are taught to follow him so what the prophets did was irrelevant since we're not taught to copy their every action like Muslims copy Mohammed. Also it was a judgement for the Caananites who were known for their extreme cruelty. Caananites were not deserving of the land in the first place since they only did polytheism and sacrificed new born babies into the fire would you prefer that those people continued in their vile practices or atleast let God exact his judgement on them. How brutal the Old Testament does not matter because it is just recording the commands God gave to the Israelites. While Islam violence is actually being commanded. By the way by iron rod he means he will rule with his unbroken word which will be as strong as the iron rod.

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1 minute ago, Mishael said:

The prophets were men at the end of the day and had sins like other men only Jesus was perfect so we are taught to follow him so what the prophets did was irrelevant since we're not taught to copy their every action like Muslims copy Mohammed. Also it was a judgement for the Caananites who were known for their extreme cruelty. Caananites were not deserving of the land in the first place since they only did polytheism and sacrificed new born babies into the fire would you prefer that those people continued in their vile practices or atleast let God exact his judgement on them. How brutal the Old Testament does not matter because it is just recording the commands God gave to the Israelites. While Islam violence is actually being commanded. By the way by iron rod he means he will rule with his unbroken word which will be as strong as the iron rod.

Saying the prophets sinned is completely irrelevant, since God ordered the killing of women and children. Therefore the slaughtering of those women and children was righteous. See what you want to do is to try to obfuscate this violence and pretend it never happened. Saying that Muslim shari' rules still apply is irrelevant, the point is that both come from the same root which is that they both claim to be from God. Basically the only reason violence is wrong to you is because in your view Jesus abolished it, but if he hadn't abolished it then killing women and children would be morally permissible. This means that any absolute moral judgement on this issue is completely useless and irrelevant, since the only criterion comes down to if God ordered this or not. If he ordered it then it would be moral, but if he prohibited it then it would be immoral. Basically this comes down to whether or not one accepts Christianity. Needless to say the traditional Christian and Jewish belief regarding the bible is flat out wrong, we know for a fact that Moses was not the sole author of the torah as we have it today. We also know that the synoptic gospels were not 4 separate eyewitnesses to the events. It is modern scholarly consensus that the gospels had some sort of relationship with one another, refer to the synoptic problem. 

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8 minutes ago, Shi3i_jadeed said:

Saying the prophets sinned is completely irrelevant, since God ordered the killing of women and children. Therefore the slaughtering of those women and children was righteous. See what you want to do is to try to obfuscate this violence and pretend it never happened. Saying that Muslim shari' rules still apply is irrelevant, the point is that both come from the same root which is that they both claim to be from God. Basically the only reason violence is wrong to you is because in your view Jesus abolished it, but if he hadn't abolished it then killing women and children would be morally permissible. This means that any absolute moral judgement on this issue is completely useless and irrelevant, since the only criterion comes down to if God ordered this or not. If he ordered it then it would be moral, but if he prohibited it then it would be immoral. Basically this comes down to whether or not one accepts Christianity. Needless to say the traditional Christian and Jewish belief regarding the bible is flat out wrong, we know for a fact that Moses was not the sole author of the torah as we have it today. We also know that the synoptic gospels were not 4 separate eyewitnesses to the events. It is modern scholarly consensus that the gospels had some sort of relationship with one another, refer to the synoptic problem. 

Had Jesus ordered killing for people when he came down with his message I would not have been Christian right now. The point is Christians aren't commanded to kill unless in self defense. In Islam killing is ordered that's the difference what's in the Old Testament was ordered directly from God to Israel and was made as a temporary covenant which Jesus did not abolish but fulfilled it. I'm not saying it never happened it did happen but God isn't commanding us Christians to do out and do force conversions, And keep in mind the Sharia all comes from the words of Mohammed and his companions not God as it claims. If Jesus ordered the killing to spread his message then I wouldn't be here believing in him.

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This is the first time that I'm hearing that Jesus will return as a conquerer in Christianity in his second coming.

(-Sorry I'm not not that well versed in Christianity-).

Are there are verses of the Bible to support this?

Thanks

@Shi3i_jadeed @Mishael

Edited by Sumerian

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2 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

This is the first time that I'm hearing that Jesus will return as a conquerer in Christianity.

(-Sorry I'm not not that well versed in Christianity-).

Are there are verses of the Bible to support this?

Thanks

@Shi3i_jadeed @Mishael

He will kill the Anti Christ and punish those who followed him but he will rule with his unbroken word.

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1 minute ago, Mishael said:

Had Jesus ordered killing for people when he came down with his message I would not have been Christian right now. The point is Christians aren't commanded to kill unless in self defense. In Islam killing is ordered that's the difference what's in the Old Testament was ordered directly from God to Israel and was made as a temporary covenant which Jesus did not abolish but fulfilled it. I'm not saying it never happened it did happen but God isn't commanding us Christians to do out and do force conversions, And keep in mind the Sharia all comes from the words of Mohammed and his companions not God as it claims. If Jesus ordered the killing to spread his message then I wouldn't be here believing in him.

Why is killing wrong though? You position doesn't make any sense, on one hand killing is absolutely wrong to the point where you would leave Christianity if Jesus ordered his followers to kill. But in fact Jesus did do just that because in Christianity Jesus is God. The only position that makes sense for you to take is that killing is a conditional on the allowance or prohibition of God which may changed whenever he so decrees, meaning that the prohibition is NOT absolute. Whether Jesus "fulfilled" or "abolished" the law is irrelevant since it means the same thing really. Islam says the shariah is from God, which is the same fundamental claim both Christians and Jews make about biblical law found in the bible. This makes the question of violence completely meaningless, the question simply becomes did God permit it or not which you can only know by revelation. 

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10 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

This is the first time that I'm hearing that Jesus will return as a conquerer in Christianity.

(-Sorry I'm not not that well versed in Christianity-).

Are there are verses of the Bible to support this?

Thanks

@Shi3i_jadeed @Mishael

The jewish expectation for the messiah was a conqueror who would subjugate the world under his rule and liberate the israelites from their oppressors. So if one believes Jesus came and will fulfill all the prophecies about the messiah found in the old testament then Jesus must return in the second coming and fulfill them because in his first coming he did not fulfill all of them. If you read some Christian descriptions about the second coming it is gonna be violent to say the least. 

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18 minutes ago, Mishael said:

He will kill the Anti Christ and punish those who followed him but he will rule with his unbroken word.

Is this article incorrect? And I'm only talking about the part under the sub-heading "The Second Coming of Christ", so you can ignore the Muhammad vs Jesus discussion at the start of the article and just tell me if that specific part is correct.

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/04/jesus-loves-his-enemies-and-then-kills-them-all/

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20 minutes ago, Shi3i_jadeed said:

Why is killing wrong though? You position doesn't make any sense, on one hand killing is absolutely wrong to the point where you would leave Christianity if Jesus ordered his followers to kill. But in fact Jesus did do just that because in Christianity Jesus is God. The only position that makes sense for you to take is that killing is a conditional on the allowance or prohibition of God which may changed whenever he so decrees, meaning that the prohibition is NOT absolute. Whether Jesus "fulfilled" or "abolished" the law is irrelevant since it means the same thing really. Islam says the shariah is from God, which is the same fundamental claim both Christians and Jews make about biblical law found in the bible. This makes the question of violence completely meaningless, the question simply becomes did God permit it or not which you can only know by revelation. 

Jesus ordered the Israelites to kill not the Christians. Actually God created us and he has the right to take away our lives when ever he wants which is the same in Islam. Has has the will to be a just mighty and fair to the disbelievers and believers and yet wise and compassionate to both the believers and disbelievers. Here is what a Christian once said about violence on the Old Testament,

"The Old Testament is violent. God physically killed people who deserved it before He came as a man, Jesus Christ. I believe that this represents the spiritual and second death that all unrepentant sinners face and we all deserve. The Old Testament is violent. God physically killed people who deserved it before He came as a man, Jesus Christ. I believe that this represents the spiritual and second death that all unrepentant sinners face and we all deserve." 

I found this answer the best explanation I could give you and can probably explain things better then I can.

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Keep in mind I'm not saying that there was no violence ever in the Bible I'm just saying when God came down as a man he didn't order killing or death for apostasy.

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2 minutes ago, Mishael said:

Keep in mind I'm not saying that there was no violence ever in the Bible I'm just saying when God came down as a man he didn't order killing or death for apostasy.

Sorry Mishael, but God didn't come down as a man, no matter what Bible tells you.

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Just now, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Sorry Mishael, but God didn't come down as a man, no matter what Bible tells you.

Well that's a whole other topic up for debate.

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2 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

True, but Jews don't believe this and neither do we. 

Actually all of the prophets knew about Jesus and prophecized his coming and acknowledged that God would come down to the world the Jews actually don't know their own scripture the ones that do end up becoming Christian and the ones that know but reject are the hypocrites. Many rabbis became Christian after reading the Torah properly and really inspecting it.

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2 minutes ago, Mishael said:

Actually all of the prophets knew about Jesus and prophecized his coming and acknowledged that God would come down to the world the Jews actually don't know their own scripture the ones that do end up becoming Christian and the ones that know but reject are the hypocrites. Many rabbis became Christian after reading the Torah properly and really inspecting it.

According to whom?, it sounds like something that Joel Osteen would say.

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Just now, Gaius I. Caesar said:

According to whom?, it sounds like something that Joel Osteen would say.

Well it's a fact Jews are waiting on a messiah who will never come. Just do some research on the fact and you'll find Jews are ignorant of their own scripture look here are Jews who except Jesus as lord https://jewsforjesus.org/

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8 minutes ago, Mishael said:

Actually all of the prophets knew about Jesus and prophecized his coming and acknowledged that God would come down to the world the Jews actually don't know their own scripture the ones that do end up becoming Christian and the ones that know but reject are the hypocrites. Many rabbis became Christian after reading the Torah properly and really inspecting it.

If jesus was God who came to earth why was he calling God and yelling to him ; "god why did you abandoned me ", when he was on the cross?!

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4 hours ago, Mishael said:

Remember the Church isn't Jesus and was still run by men who were men at the end of the day so it's not perfect and it had its own dark history but Jesus was not a tyrant the first time Christianity really started being a organized political religion was when the Romans became Christian. While Islam from the beginning was forceful and gave three options. Aslim, Jizyah, or death. I notice you put a picture of Sheikh Nimr Al Nimr a person I really admire because he fought for the rights of people like me and by the way he fought for free speech.

Salam the problem is not by religion the problem is the persons that preach it wrongly Islam mainly preached by enemies of Ahlulbayt(as) thus they spread the wrong message & Image of Islam is it as the same about Christianity & Judaism .

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4 hours ago, seyed.ali said:

If jesus was God who came to earth why was he calling God and yelling to him ; "god why did you abandoned me ", when he was on the cross?!

The Father and the Son both had a divine eternal relationship with one another so there is no problem with God the Son praying or talking to God the Father. As I said they had an eternal relationship before Christ came down to the Earth as a man.

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@Mishael Brother I hope Allah guides you to the straight path. Don't let this Christian vs Muslim thing influence you- it is impossible for Prophet Jesus (as) to be the son of God.

Absorb Imam Ali's(as) beautiful words on God:

"The foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute.

Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognises His like, and whoever recognises His like regards Him two; and whoever regards Him as two recognises parts for Him; and whoever recognises parts for Him mistook Him; and whoever mistook Him pointed at Him; and whoever pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him; and whoever admitted limitations for Him numbered Him. Whoever said: ‘In what is He?’, held that He is contained; and whoever said: ‘On what is He?’, held He is not on something else."

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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16 hours ago, Mishael said:

By the way each point given on that website on apostasy in Christianity can be refuted just tell me which ones you want me to refute.

Jesus and the Apostles themselves saying that those who break divine commands must be killed. I don't need any refutation.

 

16 hours ago, Mishael said:

Cisneros was the one who wanted forced and conversion which was not the original plan and he is at fault. 

So he wasn't Christian?He wasn't a religious figure? What about the genocide in Castile, where there was no Cisneros? Was it HIS fault too?

You are just dodging the issue. You wanted to know the reason behind death penalty for apostasy in Islam, we gave you the reasons. You said death for apostasy isn't there in Christianity, we gave you proof from the Bible, and that is how the early Church Fathers (who understood the Bible much better than you and other modern revisionists) understood it; You asked why is it that Muslims are allowed to preach in the West while Christians can't preach in Muslim countries, we told you it's because they are now SECULAR countries not concerned with upholding any religion, and back in the early modern times when they were Christian monarchies they butchered the Muslims to the point of annihilating them, let alone allow them to preach their religion.
Coupled with that is your appalling ignorance of the history of your own religion. You don't even have a case to argue, and are just here to take shots and shift goal -posts.
If Christianity is sooooo rationally justifiable, then why are the folks there in the West abandoning it in droves (now that the coercive arm of the Church is withdrawn), while Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, and is especially drawing so many converts in the West?

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17 minutes ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Jesus and the Apostles themselves saying that those who break divine commands must be killed. I don't need any refutation.

 

So he wasn't Christian?He wasn't a religious figure? What about the genocide in Castile, where there was no Cisneros? Was it HIS fault too?

You are just dodging the issue. You wanted to know the reason behind death penalty for apostasy in Islam, we gave you the reasons. You said death for apostasy isn't there in Christianity, we gave you proof from the Bible, and that is how the early Church Fathers (who understood the Bible much better than you and other modern revisionists) understood it; You asked why is it that Muslims are allowed to preach in the West while Christians can't preach in Muslim countries, we told you it's because they are now SECULAR countries not concerned with upholding any religion, and back in the early modern times when they were Christian monarchies they butchered the Muslims to the point of annihilating them, let alone allow them to preach their religion.
Coupled with that is your appalling ignorance of the history of your own religion. You don't even have a case to argue, and are just here to take shots and shift goal -posts.
If Christianity is sooooo rationally justifiable, then why are the folks there in the West abandoning it in droves (now that the coercive arm of the Church is withdrawn), while Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, and is especially drawing so many converts in the West?

Islam fastest growing, I know many ex Muslims myself and it's growth it's due to brith rate not conversion in general many studies show most coverts leave Islam within about 1-2-3 years people just can't live under Sharia or defend it. Also you've failed to give a verse regarding Jesus saying to kill those who defy his commandments if you give me a verse I'd be happy to answer. And keep in mind of even if Christianity did kill apostates in your mind that justifies Islam killing apostates. Greece has Christianity as its official state religion Muslims aren't killed at all. Usually aswell when people they abandon Christianity they leave it for Athiesm or Agnosticism rarely Islam. The Genocide first came when Cisneros came other then that it was a war with deaths going on both the Muslim and Christian sides so neither is justified and Cisneros interfered in the Churches efforts to convert the Moors through peaceful means so yeah he was so pious in Christianity that he labeled other Christians who didn't agree with him as heretics aswell so yeah I'm sure he was a good Christian. And by the way attacking Christianity isn't going to whoosh the argument about death penalty in Islam away.

Edited by Mishael

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