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Mishael

Why must Murtadin be killed in Islam?

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I myself was born into a Muslim family and I don't understand why Murtads must be killed in Islam and this kind of proves Islam not to be the true faith doesn't it. The truth isn't afraid of criticism or people leaving it. I think this is also a violation of the basic rights of every human to freely choose his belief publicly if he wants and no one has the right to change that.

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

I am not here to try to give an answer i am claiming is the right one, nor am i here to just give my own opinion. Rather i give the views of people i have heard more knowledgable than me , and this is open to correction.

As a Christian, you affirm Moses , peace be upon him, also had the law of death for the apostate. Moses lived  very long time before the Messiah, Jesus Christ, peace and blessings be upon him. The law was effectively in action in that period until , as you believe , it was abrogated. Therefore you must believe at one point, almighty God permitted death for apostasy. 

Now, let us take a step back and examine this through a different sense. If we examine Islamic law, it becomes clear that Islam is primarily concerned with the effects an act has on society. For instance, if there is someone who has committed adultery, in an Islamic government and court, one would have to produce four people who all saw the act, and they all have to corroborate the very same story, and they all must be well known for being just and upright - something very hard to replicate. You could technically get away with adultery unless you are so flagrant you commit and perform it as openly as one could possibly do. Similarly in Islam, if someone sins, and repents in private, they are a sinner. If someone openly starts to commit sins, they become a far greater sinner; they become what is known as a Fasiq, or open sinner. Thus does Islam make it clear that any act which harms society a large and the public is dealt with in a very robust manner.

I understand your question is not about treason, but if we imagine treason being something which can put the physical lives of those in a country in danger, then what about apostasy - which can put the spiritual lives of those in a country in danger? If people apostate and begin speaking out against the religion and declaring their disbelief openly this can harm the spiritual safety of that society. In effect, it is similar to treason in that sense. 

If someone leaves Islam, and keeps it to themselves, nothing happens. If someone who converts and leaves Islam, they are given a chance to repent, and the women are not given the penalty for apostasy, but put in jail. This only applies to an Islamic government and not vigilantism.

We aren't afraid of our beliefs being criticised. In fact, we've welcomed civil criticism from Christians, Atheists, Jews and many other groups and have partaken in robust debates against all of them. That is different to someone living in an Islamic country openly declaring they have left Islam and therefore misleading, misguiding and corrupting others.

Edited by Intellectual Resistance

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That means Islam is technically a weak religion since one person leaving it can cause doubt for others, the law of Moses was fulfilled of Jesus and we Christians follow the commandments of Jesus only which does not include killing apostates. The law of Moses was also meant for the people of Israel while Jesus was for all the world. What if I stop going to mosque and I stop praying and people ask me why I don't do that anymore and I tell them I'm Christian now would I be killed?

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Just now, Mishael said:

That means Islam is technically a weak religion since one person leaving it can cause doubt for others, the law of Moses was fulfilled of Jesus and we Christians follow the commandments of Jesus only which does not include killing apostates. The law of Moses was also meant for the people of Israel while Jesus was for all the world. What if I stop going to mosque and I stop praying and people ask me why I don't do that anymore and I tell them I'm Christian now would I be killed?

Not necessarily. 

A religion can be strong and robust, but human beings can be weak and open to being misled and misguided. 

As for your case my brother in humanity, who am i to comment or judge?

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Technically if it were to prove its strength by force then its weak like communism as we saw communism fall apart quickly when its couldn't force itself on people anymore. A religion proves its strength by its preaching and divine words not by killing or showing force otherwise it's not a religion.

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2 minutes ago, Mishael said:

Technically if it were to prove its strength by force then its weak like communism as we saw communism fall apart quickly when its couldn't force itself on people anymore. A religion proves its strength by its preaching and divine words not by killing or showing force otherwise it's not a religion.

Communism forced itself on the entire nation of people, who were never communists to begin with. In Islam you can not force someone to submit and enter into the religion.  Furthermore, if someone goes about their personal life, they can believe what they want and keep it between them and God.  Moses, peace be on him, enacted and legislated the death penalty for apostasy, and whatever you may be believe Jesus came to do, the fact remains for the Prophet Moses, the same God allowed the death penalty at one point for leaving his religion.

Edited by Intellectual Resistance

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So mar charbel went international now? My parents have a calendar of him in our kitchen.

There are Many steps one should take to execute someone in islam, it's not that easy and simple. For example if someone was a convert and he wanted to go back to christianity and he was threatened by death, reached the court for the appeal and said he's a muslim again then he's exempt right away.

Plus show me a case were someone was executed for this reason in the last century, you won't find any.

I myself am a convert from christianity to shia, and if I decided to be christian again (May God Forbid a million times) I deserve the penalty of death because i'd consider that i'm not in my full consciousness and logic and that this worldly life has deluded me again.

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2 minutes ago, yasahebalzaman.313 said:

So mar charbel went international now? My parents have a calendar of him in our kitchen.

There are Many steps one should take to execute someone in islam, it's not that easy and simple. For example if someone was a convert and he wanted to go back to christianity and he was threatened by death, reached the court for the appeal and said he's a muslim again then he's exempt right away.

Plus show me a case were someone was executed for this reason in the last century, you won't find any.

I myself am a convert from christianity to shia, and if I decided to be christian again (May God Forbid a million times) I deserve the penalty of death because i'd consider that i'm not in my full consciousness and logic and that this worldly life has deluded me again.

I'm a convert to Christianity from a Muslim background I was born a Muslim and never believed in Islam should I be killed? What if someone never chose to be born Muslim like me?

Edited by Mishael

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1 hour ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

Communism forced itself on the entire nation of people, who were never communists to begin with. In Islam you can not force someone to submit and enter into the religion.  Furthermore, if someone goes about their personal life, they can believe what they want and keep it between them and God.  Moses, peace be on him, enacted and legislated the death penalty for apostasy, and whatever you may be believe Jesus came to do, the fact remains for the Prophet Moses, the same God allowed the death penalty at one point for leaving his religion.

The law of Moses was for the children of Israel Jesus and his laws were for all the world so technically the law of Jesus was the true all meant for all people why the law of Moses was specifically for Israel no one else.

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Just now, Mishael said:

I'm a convert to Christianity from a Muslim background I was born a Muslim and never believed in Islam should I be killed? What if someone never chose to be born Muslim like me?

I'm not in a position to judge that. When i enter hawza and study to become a mujtahid i can come and answer you the strategic, well deserved answer for your situation.

But from what it looks like it seems you just wanna find mistakes in Islam to renounce it. I guess you're in Lebanon right? If you want help in that we can fix a meeting and i can introduce you to someone who can Answer All your questions no matter how hard and sophisticated they are.

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3 minutes ago, yasahebalzaman.313 said:

I'm not in a position to judge that. When i enter hawza and study to become a mujtahid i can come and answer you the strategic, well deserved answer for your situation.

But from what it looks like it seems you just wanna find mistakes in Islam to renounce it. I guess you're in Lebanon right? If you want help in that we can fix a meeting and i can introduce you to someone who can Answer All your questions no matter how hard and sophisticated they are.

Actually I'm in Saudi but I'm part Lebanese, during my discussion with knowledgeable Muslims most have defended the death penalty which kind of ruins the whole logic of Islam but I'm planning to move to Lebanon soon.

Edited by Mishael

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3 hours ago, yasahebalzaman.313 said:

I'm not in a position to judge that. When i enter hawza and study to become a mujtahid i can come and answer you the strategic, well deserved answer for your situation.

But from what it looks like it seems you just wanna find mistakes in Islam to renounce it. I guess you're in Lebanon right? If you want help in that we can fix a meeting and i can introduce you to someone who can Answer All your questions no matter how hard and sophisticated they are.

Salam, just out of curiosity, are there Hawza’s in lebanon just specifically for women?

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3 hours ago, Mishael said:

What if someone never chose to be born Muslim like me?

Being Muslim at birth is not something you choose, although following a different religion is something you choose.

 

3 hours ago, Mishael said:

should I be killed?

 The Apostasy law only applies to people who actively denounce Islam and try to get others to stop being Muslims. It does not apply to you. You  privately decided to be Christian and it is between you and your Lord. It's nobody's business until you make it so.

Still, did you do what I asked you? Read the Quran again, cover to cover? You are still young, please reconsider being Christian because it is clear that you never appreciated or understood Islam , Mishael. 

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1 hour ago, Hassan- said:

Salam, just out of curiosity, are there Hawza’s in lebanon just specifically for women?

Wa Alikum assalam 

Hawzat az zahraa, it belongs to jam3at al Mustapha al 3lameeya.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah 

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20 hours ago, Mishael said:

Technically if it were to prove its strength by force then its weak like communism as we saw communism fall apart quickly when its couldn't force itself on people anymore. A religion proves its strength by its preaching and divine words not by killing or showing force otherwise it's not a religion.

The intellectual leaders of a community are able to understand and respond to criticism; the masses are always not in a position to do so. They are susceptible to the demagogy of the demagogues and confidence tricksters more than those who are well-learned and cultivated. Look at the example of Brexit, a suicidal action by all means, the propaganda for which was a huge confidence-trick perpetrated on the British nation by a few rabble-rousing opportunists.

If the masses can be swayed one way, they can be swayed the other way as easily. As the famous quote goes,'do not follow the masses blindly, for sometimes the 'm' in the word is silent.'

Demagogues like the apostates know this 'principle of gullibility' very well. They are not interested in argument or debate, otherwise they would have bothered to clarify their doubts rather than chuck the whole belief-system; their sole aim is to lead as many people astray as they can, just because they themselves could not appreciate that religion.
Hence, there's a reason why the death penalty for apostasy is for that apostate who makes his heresy public and spreads it in an Islamic country (dar-ul-Islam). If he decides to flee to a non-Islamic country, he is not to be hounded.
 

I am a revert to Islam myself, and I fully appreciate the importance of this punishment.

BTW, since you are a Christian, what makes you believe that there isn't death for apostasy in Christianity, if the burning of heretics and the witches (who were judged apostates for having replaced their covenants with God with covenants with the Devil) is anything to go by? It's there in the writings of Aquinas. If you don't see the penalty being implemented today, it is not because such a penalty never existed in the Christian religion, it is because after the secularization/'laicization' of the Western Christian world, the Churches from all the three main denominations viz. Latin ('Roman Catholic'), the Reformed and the Evangelical ('Protestant') and Orthodox (Greek, Russian and other Churches of Eastern Europe) were forced to abandon it.

Edited by AbdusSibtayn
spell error

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2 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

The intellectual leaders of a community are able to understand and respond to criticism; the masses are always not in a position to do so. They are susceptible to the demagogy of the demagogues and confidence tricksters more than those who are well-learned and cultivated. Look at the example of Brexit, a suicidal action by all means, the propaganda for which was a huge confidence-trick perpetrated on the British nation by a few rabble-rousing opportunists.

If the masses can be swayed one way, they can be swayed the other way as easily. As the famous quote goes,'do not follow the masses blindly, for sometimes the 'm' in the word is silent.'

Demagogues like the apostates know this 'principle of gullibility' very well. They are not interested in argument or debate, otherwise they would have bothered to clarify their doubts rather than chuck the whole belief-system; their sole aim is to lead as many people astray as they can, just because they themselves could not appreciate that religion.
Hence, there's a reason why the death penalty for apostasy is for that apostate who makes his heresy public and spreads it in an Islamic country (dar-ul-Islam). If he decides to flee to a non-Islamic country, he is not to be hounded.
 

I am a revert to Islam myself, and I fully appreciate the importance of this punishment.

BTW, since you are a Christian, what makes you believe that there isn't death for apostasy in Christianity, if the burning of heretics and the witches (who were judged apostates for having replaced their covenants with God with covenants with the Devil) is anything to go by? It's there in the writings of Aquinas. If you don't see the penalty being implemented today, it is not because such a penalty never existed in the Christian religion, it is because after the secularization/'laicization' of the Western Christian world, the Churches from all the three main denominations viz. Latin ('Roman Catholic'), the Reformed and the Evangelical ('Protestant') and Orthodox (Greek, Russian and other Churches of Eastern Europe) were forced to abandon it.

Correction there was laws for apostasy in the Church no where did Jesus command a death penalty for apostasy also keep in kind back then the Church in its political conflicts would accuse its rivals or certain preachers of apostasy in order to kill them. If the law comes from anywhere else but the mouth of Jesus and his apostles then it's false and not to be implemented. I'm a convert to Christianity from a Muslim background and why is it Muslims preach their religion openly and while a Christian can't in an Islamic country?

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3 hours ago, Mishael said:

no where did Jesus command a death penalty for apostasy

Wishful thinking being wished away here and here (references from the New Testament included).

 

3 hours ago, Mishael said:

why is it Muslims preach their religion openly and while a Christian can't in an Islamic country?

Spanish inquisitions.
Forced conversions of Muslims in Spain
If the Muslims today are free to preach their religion in the West, it is because the countries there are now SECULAR and no longer concerned with upholding either Christianity or the Biblical Law.

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8 minutes ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Wishful thinking being wished away here and here (references from the New Testament included).

 

Spanish inquisitions.
Forced conversions of Muslims in Spain
If the Muslims today are free to preach their religion in the West, it is because the countries there are now SECULAR and no longer concerned with upholding either Christianity or the Biblical Law.

I'd urge you to read true history of the inquisition also Muslims broke the agreement and originally just had to pay tax to the Christian rulers in exchange for the right to practice Islam they staged a revolt and were given two options conversion or expulsion. And if your going to talk about forced conversion in Spain I can show you many martyrs who were killed by Muslims for conversion to Christianity.

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5 minutes ago, Mishael said:

I'd urge you to read true history of the inquisition also Muslims broke the agreement and originally just had to pay tax to the Christian rulers in exchange for the right to practice Islam they staged a revolt and were given two options conversion or expulsion.

From the link-

Quote

In 1499, the Archbishop of Toledo, Cardinal Francisco Jiménez de Cisneros began a campaign in the city of Granada to force religious compliance with Christianity with torture and imprisonment; this triggered a Muslim rebellion. The rebellion was eventually quelled and then used to justify revoking the Muslims' legal and treaty protections. Conversion efforts were redoubled, and by 1501 officially no Muslim remained in Granada.

 

6 minutes ago, Mishael said:

And if your going to talk about forced conversion in Spain I can show you many martyrs who were killed by Muslims for conversion to Christianity.

Irrelevant.

Organically formed Christian communities who have roots in the Middle East stay there to this day, and on the other hand-
 

Quote

by 1501 officially no Muslim remained in Granada.

Religious persecution =/= total annihilation.

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2 minutes ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

From the link-

 

Irrelevant.

Organically formed Christian communities who have roots in the Middle East stay there to this day, and on the other hand-
 

Religious persecution =/= total annihilation.

Actually not true the Romans persecuted Christians horribly but we survived the Nazis persecuted Jews but they survived Muslims murdered us and we fought back and survived. Ever heard how the Maronites fought the Ummayad and Abbasid khilafat and resisted there onslaught for hundreds of years same as how the Hindus resisted the Muslims in India. Actually the Muslims were expelled from Spain after they revolted and the ones that did not leave had to convert to Christianity after all they were working to undermine the state. In 1499 Cisneros accompanied the court of the Spanish Inquisition to Granada, and there interfered with the Archbishop of Talavera's efforts to peacefully convert its Muslim inhabitants to Christianity. Talavera favored slow conversion by explaining to the Moors, in their language, the truths of the Catholic religion, but Cisneros said that this was "giving pearls to pigs," and proceeded with forced mass conversion. He ordered the public burning of all Arabic manuscripts that could be found in Granada—5,000 is the lowest figure the contemporary sources give—except those dealing with medicine.[5]

 

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43 minutes ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Wishful thinking being wished away here and here (references from the New Testament included).

 

Spanish inquisitions.
Forced conversions of Muslims in Spain
If the Muslims today are free to preach their religion in the West, it is because the countries there are now SECULAR and no longer concerned with upholding either Christianity or the Biblical Law.

By the way each point given on that website on apostasy in Christianity can be refuted just tell me which ones you want me to refute.

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I don't really understand the big problem with irtidad. I understand why it would be a problem for relativists who would accept we really can't know the truth therefore it would be wrong to impose a truth upon someone because there is not real objective truth but that itself is rather nonsensical. But if one believes in revelation then it is the prerogative of God to set the laws and rights for his creation. I suggest you actually look into the history of the church, it is impossible that one could study it's history and come out with the conclusion that it was supportive of  freedom of speech and free expression of belief. Every society has red lines, for a Muslim society those red lines should be divine in origin.

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4 minutes ago, Shi3i_jadeed said:

I don't really understand the big problem with irtidad. I understand why it would be a problem for relativists who would accept we really can't know the truth therefore it would be wrong to impose a truth upon someone because there is not real objective truth but that itself is rather nonsensical. But if one believes in revelation then it is the prerogative of God to set the laws and rights for his creation. I suggest you actually look into the history of the church, it is impossible that one could study it's history and come out with the conclusion that it was supportive of  freedom of speech and free expression of belief. Every society has red lines, for a Muslim society those red lines should be divine in origin.

Remember the Church isn't Jesus and was still run by men who were men at the end of the day so it's not perfect and it had its own dark history but Jesus was not a tyrant the first time Christianity really started being a organized political religion was when the Romans became Christian. While Islam from the beginning was forceful and gave three options. Aslim, Jizyah, or death. I notice you put a picture of Sheikh Nimr Al Nimr a person I really admire because he fought for the rights of people like me and by the way he fought for free speech.

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2 minutes ago, Mishael said:

Remember the Church isn't Jesus and was still run by men who were men at the end of the day so it's not perfect and it had its own dark history but Jesus was not a tyrant the first time Christianity really started being a organized political religion was when the Romans became Christian. While Islam from the beginning was forceful and gave three options. Aslim, Jizyah, or death. I notice you put a picture of Sheikh Nimr Al Nimr a person I really admire because he fought for the rights of people like me and by the way he fought for free speech.

And where do these "rights" you are talking about come from? Read the old testament, in that God orders the Israelites to put entire cities to the sword and kill all the men women and children expect the virgin girls who the Israelites are to take for themselves. Keep in mind in Christianity, Jesus is God that means the prince of peace ordered women and children to be put to the sword. One must also keep in mind the jewish expectations of the messiah which was someone who would be a conqueror who would subjugate all nations to his will and yes this includes slaughtering his enemies. The second coming for Christians would be the fulfillment of this. A tyrant fights for his personal gain to impose falsehood on people. Freedom of belief and free speech is not a biblical value AT ALL, it is a modern western value which you are conflating with Christianity. Either way you cannot escape violence in any tradition. 

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