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What do think about demonstrations in Iran

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10 hours ago, Guest Account Ali said:

For your first point, You must not be paying attention to the news (not by western media). 

Also as for the 20 dead figure. Here is an uncomfortable truth: "The total death toll of the "peaceful protests" is now some 21 of which (by my count) at least five were policemen killed in attacks by "protesters" and two unrelated civilians who were run over and killed by rioters driving a stolen firetruck. Six rioters were killed when they tried to attack a police station in the town of Qahderijan. The governor there claimed that the attackers were armed with guns."

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/01/iran-protests-decrease-riots-increase-us-prepares-for-the-next-phase.html#more

(I suggest reading the entire link for more information)

I assume you could care less about the 5 cops being killed? Or the two protesters who were run over by... other protesters. Or the 6 rioters who tried to invade a freaking police station, and in anyone's book at that point killing the invaders would not be seen as unsusal though undesirable. But here is thing, everyone and they mama cares only about the civilians killed by police but don't seem to care about the other half of the casualty figures. 

l do remember posting this in 2009:

When l was in the Nat'l guard, l kept the briefing papers for the sniper team in case of a riot. The commander was to read this to them, that the standing order is to look for people with containers. lf it a bottle -for instance- just watch. lf the bottle has something stuck into the open end it could be just something to prevent dirt getting in or prevent spillage. BUT lf someone lights it a starts to throw it shoot-to-kill-period. Why? Because firebombing an occupied building is attempted murder under state law (which is true in nearly every state of the USA).

l saw film this morning or last night of those rioters throwing fire bombs into a building identified as a police station the news said so they could steal guns.

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14 hours ago, andres said:

There are so many other countries Iran can trade with other than Israel and USA. What is the problem? 

If any country wants to trade with Iran it is bullied by the US and threatened that the US will not do business with them. This is probably why Iran has relationships with countries that are also under sanctions from the US, not necessarily because Iran loves those countries (or their controversial leaders) but because those countries are more than willing to do business with Iran.  

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Ayatollah Khamenei's statements on recent events in Iran

ديدارها دیدار اعضای شورای هماهنگی تبلیغات اسلامی سراسر کشور با مقام معظم رهبری

Tehran (ISNA) - In recent events, the enemies of Iran united by using different tools in their disposition, including money, weapons, politics and intelligence, in order to create problems for Islamic system.

In continuation of Ayatollah Khamenei's weekly meetings with the respected families of the martyrs, a group of families of the martyrs of the 8-year holy Sacred Defense era met with Ayatollah Khamenei on Tuesday, January 2, 2018

he stated, "What prevents the enemies and their hostile actions is the spirit of courage, self-sacrifice, and faith among the people".

Pointing to the fact that the enemy has always waited for the opportunity to penetrate and damage the Iranian nation, Ayatollah Khamenei added, "In recent events, the enemies of Iran united by using different tools in their disposition, including money, weapons, politics and intelligence, in order to create problems for Islamic system".

He continued, "Regarding these events, I have more to say, which I will share with dear Iranian people at the right time."

https://en.isna.ir/news/96101206499/Ayatollah-Khamenei-s-statements-on-recent-events-in-Iran

http://english.khamenei.ir/news/5378/Ayatollah-Khamenei-s-statements-on-recent-events-in-Iran

Pointing to the fact that the enemy has always waited for the opportunity to penetrate and endamage the Iranian nation, Ayatollah Khamenei added: "In recent events, the enemies of Iran united by using different tools in their disposition, including money, weapons, politics and intelligence, in order to create problems for the Islamic system."

http://english.khamenei.ir/news/5378/Ayatollah-Khamenei-s-statements-on-recent-events-in-Iran

http://english.khamenei.ir/news/5336/Ayatollah-Khamenei-s-friendly-talk-with-the-families-of-Sacred (video)

He continued, "Regarding these events, I have more to say, which I will share with dear Iranian people at the right time."

Recent riots result of foreign proxy war against Iran: Shamkhani

57342994.jpg

Tehran (ISNA) - Secretary of Iran's Supreme National Security Council (SNSC) Ali Shamkhani has said certain countries are waging a "proxy war" against the Islamic Republic via social media and the internet.

https://en.isna.ir/news/96101206330/Recent-riots-result-of-foreign-proxy-war-against-Iran-Shamkhani

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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4 hours ago, wolverine said:

If any country wants to trade with Iran it is bullied by the US and threatened that the US will not do business with them. This is probably why Iran has relationships with countries that are also under sanctions from the US, not necessarily because Iran loves those countries (or their controversial leaders) but because those countries are more than willing to do business with Iran.  

Despite of Trumps personal pride lots of US companies are eager to trade with Iran. The Swedish government does not share Trumps wish to isolate Iran. Trump actually is isolating USA from the rest of the world. 

https://www.business-sweden.se/Export/marknader/mellanostern/iran/business-sweden-in-tehran-inagurated/

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8 hours ago, Guest Account Ali said:

I don't think you understand what you mean by slow changes. These changes are not going to be towards a liberal secular democracy like Sweden. Iran never is going to become like that. Iranians collectively have always historically and even into the future will continue to be very conservative religiously. And the recent protests should tell you that Iranians are now fed up with the reformists and their agenda and now will start characteristically voting for the traditionalists. And then back and fourth, sort of like (ironically) the United States. 

In fact, it is funny since Iran and the US are more similar to each other than either would like to admit in more ways than one. 

Iranians like US people are very diverse. They are male, female, communists, conservatives, reformists, secular, religious, homos, heteros, black and whites. So also in Europe. In democrasies it is rather clear how many of each kind, in totalitarian states it can be difficult to say, because opposition may harm you. Iranians are not zombies, we have just witnessed this. 

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3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Ayatollah Khamenei's statements on recent events in Iran

ديدارها دیدار اعضای شورای هماهنگی تبلیغات اسلامی سراسر کشور با مقام معظم رهبری

Tehran (ISNA) - In recent events, the enemies of Iran united by using different tools in their disposition, including money, weapons, politics and intelligence, in order to create problems for Islamic system.

In continuation of Ayatollah Khamenei's weekly meetings with the respected families of the martyrs, a group of families of the martyrs of the 8-year holy Sacred Defense era met with Ayatollah Khamenei on Tuesday, January 2, 2018

he stated, "What prevents the enemies and their hostile actions is the spirit of courage, self-sacrifice, and faith among the people".

Pointing to the fact that the enemy has always waited for the opportunity to penetrate and damage the Iranian nation, Ayatollah Khamenei added, "In recent events, the enemies of Iran united by using different tools in their disposition, including money, weapons, politics and intelligence, in order to create problems for Islamic system".

He continued, "Regarding these events, I have more to say, which I will share with dear Iranian people at the right time."

https://en.isna.ir/news/96101206499/Ayatollah-Khamenei-s-statements-on-recent-events-in-Iran

http://english.khamenei.ir/news/5378/Ayatollah-Khamenei-s-statements-on-recent-events-in-Iran

Pointing to the fact that the enemy has always waited for the opportunity to penetrate and endamage the Iranian nation, Ayatollah Khamenei added: "In recent events, the enemies of Iran united by using different tools in their disposition, including money, weapons, politics and intelligence, in order to create problems for the Islamic system."

http://english.khamenei.ir/news/5378/Ayatollah-Khamenei-s-statements-on-recent-events-in-Iran

http://english.khamenei.ir/news/5336/Ayatollah-Khamenei-s-friendly-talk-with-the-families-of-Sacred (video)

He continued, "Regarding these events, I have more to say, which I will share with dear Iranian people at the right time."

Recent riots result of foreign proxy war against Iran: Shamkhani

57342994.jpg

Tehran (ISNA) - Secretary of Iran's Supreme National Security Council (SNSC) Ali Shamkhani has said certain countries are waging a "proxy war" against the Islamic Republic via social media and the internet.

https://en.isna.ir/news/96101206330/Recent-riots-result-of-foreign-proxy-war-against-Iran-Shamkhani

Blaiming domestic troubble on foreign powers. Pathetic. And an insult agains those Iranians that protest because of bad conditions. Like in all other nations there are also intelligent politicians in Iran. Rouhani is one. 

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2 hours ago, andres said:

Blaiming domestic troubble on foreign powers. Pathetic. And an insult agains those Iranians that protest because of bad conditions. Like in all other nations there are also intelligent politicians in Iran. Rouhani is one. 

In todays modern interconnected world, there is no such thing as a clear line between 'domestic' and 'international' troubles. A good portion of the domestic troubles Iran is having, economically, has to do with the boycotts and sanctions imposed on Iran by US. If you are say a trade representative from Mexico and you want to do business with an Iranian company, then the US finds out and calls and threatens your company and says 'If you do business with Iran, you cannot do business with the US' and a good portion of your sales are in the US, you will of course not do the deal with the Iranian company in order to save your business. And this lack of trade and investment will also harm the Iranian economy and people. So this leads to a domestic situation, bad economy, which is caused by an international situation. I am not saying this is the only problem in the Iranian economy, but it is one of the largest ones. 

And if you say 'That is made up, the US doesn't really do that'. Yes, they do this all the time. Now and in the past. The only difference between now and in the past is that, in the past, this would all be done in secret and the US Govt representatives wouldn't even acknowledge that it goes on. Now, with Trump, he says it openly and admits it. In a way, this is good because now it is out in the open and noone can deny it anymore. What is being done to Iran by the US is equivalent to a naval blockade in the Old days where enemy ships would surround the sea ports and land crossings and not let any goods move in and out of the country. Only now it is being done virtually, thru putting pressure from the outside on any government or business that wants to trade with Iran. This is an act of war, always has been since the days of the Roman Empire. This has been going on for almost 40 years. 

But the other side of this is that now many countries are starting to realize that it is not a good thing to give the US so much power to do this kind of blockade because they know that if somehow they fall out of favor with the US, it will be done to them. That is why you see different things happening in the world today, as I mentioned in my earlier post.  

Edited by Abu Hadi

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47 minutes ago, andres said:

Iranians like US people are very diverse. They are male, female, communists, conservatives, reformists, secular, religious, homos, heteros, black and whites. So also in Europe. In democrasies it is rather clear how many of each kind, in totalitarian states it can be difficult to say, because opposition may harm you. Iranians are not zombies, we have just witnessed this. 

Yes but diversity does not equal= secular liberal democracy. Even liberalism has taken a downturn in recent years. For example, it is rather foolish to say the US will have most of its population be liberal. Since for a long time and even nowadays most of its population is conservative. And it is unlikely this will change in the US. So similarly in Iran. And even then what the reformist and conservative parties and most people in Iran know is that despite their slight political or social changes they all still greatly support wilayat e faqih. This also is unlikely to change. 

 

I can't tell if you think Iran is a totalitarian state or not. If you do, then Iran has a higher voter turnout than the US and UK's dead democracies. And yes even the supreme leader is indirectly elected since the council of experts appoints the supreme leader and members of the council of experts are voted directly in by the people. 

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49 minutes ago, andres said:

Blaiming domestic troubble on foreign powers. Pathetic. And an insult agains those Iranians that protest because of bad conditions. Like in all other nations there are also intelligent politicians in Iran. Rouhani is one. 

Yo, after I just explained to you the difference between rioters and protestors you still end up confusing the two. No one in Iran thinks of them as the same thing. And I highly doubt anyone in Iran is going to interpret his speech the way you are.

 

And also I loled at you saying Rouhani is intelligent. He may be. But from the protestors (not rioters) perspective Rouhani failed on his promises and likely won't make up for it. Also from their perspective they think he is corrupt and can't empathize with the daily struggle of a lower middle class/low class Iranian who can't even buy a carton of eggs. Trust me, Iranians are not going to praise Rouhani anymore after these protests. 

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1 hour ago, andres said:

Blaiming domestic troubble on foreign powers. Pathetic. And an insult agains those Iranians that protest because of bad conditions. Like in all other nations there are also intelligent politicians in Iran. Rouhani is one. 

ya because no one wants to meddle in Iran.. ksa, usa, israel would never do such a thing.. your logic is what is pathetic. dont you guys blame everything on Russia.

Edited by kirtc

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Hope the current Iranian regime gets overthrown and new Iran teams up with Israel and USA to stop Nasibi menace.

P.S. And no this is no joke and I do not love Israel I just realize all those nawasib Arabs are worse and I cannot stand Shias signing up for their problems. The best opinion I heard from a casual Sunni about Shiites (those who have no clue about the whole term Shia aside) was like this: Shia believes are repugnant but I still admit they do a good job for Palestine. Now I urge anyone to explain why these people are better/closer than jews and why Iranians should take care of those who literally hate them? Well, apart from they are called Mohammad/Ali/Hassan etc. If I were an Iranian I would protest against this as well.

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2 hours ago, andres said:

Blaiming domestic troubble on foreign powers. Pathetic  ... 

ls it "pathetic"?

0ne of the drivers behind the Amerikan Revolution was economic subjugation by the British Parliament. The Colonies were relegated to (overall) commodities production which were shipped to England, transformed into manufactured goods, and then shipped back to the Colonies to be sold. Taxed everywhere in the chain of transport and place of storage. This is why Ely Whitney's memorization of how to construct a powerloom before coming to the Colonies was important --as were similar efforts by other individuals.

Contrived as it was, the Oil Embargo and then the '79 Oil Shock are two other examples.

So was Napoleon's Continental System.

 

Edited by hasanhh
prepositional correction

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6 hours ago, hasanhh said:

ls it "pathetic"?

0ne of the drivers behind the Amerikan Revolution was economic subjugation by the British Parliament. The Colonies were relegated to (overall) commodities production which were shipped to England, transformed into manufactured goods, and then shipped back to the Colonies to be sold. Taxed everywhere in the chain of transport and place of storage. This is why Ely Whitney's memorization of how to construct a powerloom before coming to the Colonies was important --as were similar efforts of other individuals.

Contrived as it was, the Oil Embargo and then the '79 Oil Shock are two other examples.

So was Napoleon's Continental System.

Beautiful

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Except for the BBC and DeutscheWelle  announcements, l didn't find anything on Amerikan Nutwork news.

http://www.dw.com/en/irans-revolutionary-guard-declares-end-of-sedition/a-42019391 

The BBC is trying to justify its previous reporting with:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42563528   US accused of "interference".

The Charts of 6 Reasons those riots were justified is here: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42553516 

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2 hours ago, Guest Account Ali said:

I can't tell if you think Iran is a totalitarian state or not. If you do, then Iran has a higher voter turnout than the US and UK's dead democracies. And yes even the supreme leader is indirectly elected since the council of experts appoints the supreme leader and members of the council of experts are voted directly in by the people. 

There is nothing such as a perfect condtitution. 99% of North Coreans vote, all on the same guy. Sweden 80%, but we can chose between 8 parties for the time being, Swedes are not zombies, but differ quite a lot in political matter. How opinions among Iranians are, I do not know. Polls are not made, the Leader decides who can run for office, and internet is censured. I would not call this a developed democrasy.

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3 hours ago, Guest Account Ali said:

Yes but diversity does not equal= secular liberal democracy. Even liberalism has taken a downturn in recent years. For example, it is rather foolish to say the US will have most of its population be liberal. Since for a long time and even nowadays most of its population is conservative. And it is unlikely this will change in the US. So similarly in Iran. And even then what the reformist and conservative parties and most people in Iran know is that despite their slight political or social changes they all still greatly support wilayat e faqih. This also is unlikely to change. 

But US citizen can choose presidents as different as Obama, Trump, Clinton and Bush. How many Iranians wish to keep Khameiny in office. And should it be so that the majority wishes him to leave, will this wish be fullfilled? When will the Iranians be asked next time?

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4 hours ago, andres said:

There is nothing such as a perfect condtitution. 99% of North Coreans vote, all on the same guy. Sweden 80%, but we can chose between 8 parties for the time being, Swedes are not zombies, but differ quite a lot in political matter. How opinions among Iranians are, I do not know. Polls are not made, the Leader decides who can run for office, and internet is censured. I would not call this a developed democrasy.

Here is a list of the Iranian political parties. They all differ from each other.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_parties_in_Iran

The only parties disallowed are the militant and secular parties. And let me ask you, would Sweden allow a party to run and elect members who seriouspy vowed to turn Sweden into, say, a papal state or an Islamic state? Yeah sure there are neo Nazi parties but what none of the parties in Sweden want is to fundamentally change Sweden from a secular country. Not even Sweden would allow such a party to run or even have office, or even if it did it would be for symbolic purposes since Sweden would probably do everything to prevent the person from desecularizing the state. 

Letting the shah supporter parties run or communistic parties run in Iran is tantamount to letting ISIS affiliated parties run in Sweden that once elected into office will vow to turn Sweden into an Islamic state and completely subvert the secular nature of the country. 

I believe polls are made on Iranians. Other members here should provide them. Or you could, you know, ask people living in Iran. 

Also here in the good ol USA the government reserves the right to decide which candidates can run and can choose. And sometimes they have had to meddle in some election seasons and control things. But the thing is that the USA does not have to deal with parties that want to fundamentally change the government of the US. Iran has to. Namely on the one hand the communists who want a completely secular government and the shah supporters who want to instill a secular monarchy. 

Also surprise surprise the internet is becoming more and more censored in countries like the UK. Heck Australia is also censoring more and more things. And to begin with everyone in Iran uses VPNs from what I have heard and it takes less than five minutes to set one up in Iran. And to begin with.

Not to justify censorship but surprisingly the West is okay with censorship to protect its sensitivities. But how dare Muslims use that same line of logic. Because supposedly western sensitivities > Islamic sensitivities. 

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4 hours ago, andres said:

But US citizen can choose presidents as different as Obama, Trump, Clinton and Bush. How many Iranians wish to keep Khameiny in office. And should it be so that the majority wishes him to leave, will this wish be fullfilled? When will the Iranians be asked next time?

Bruh if you were actually an American you would not be calling those people "different". 

And like I said. Iranians could start voting for members of the council of experts to take Khamenai Out of office. However I understand it could be more nuanced than that so I would appreciate if other members here could comment on this.  

Also someone correct me here if I am wrong, but yes if the VAST majority of people dislike Khamenai they can evict him from office. However they would have to put in another Marja into that office. They cannot get rid of that position. 

Bruh you do realize Khomeini instituted a referendum for the current theocracy of Iran to be put into place in the first place? And the referendum came back around 98% approval of an Islamic theocracy (don't qoute me on the exact percentage but it was definitely above 90%)

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47 minutes ago, andres said:

But US citizen can choose presidents as different as Obama, Trump, Clinton and Bush. How many Iranians wish to keep Khameiny in office. And should it be so that the majority wishes him to leave, will this wish be fullfilled? When will the Iranians be asked next time?

When they stop voting for the Assembly. When you have a 70% + voting on the Assembly that means they want him to stay. People dont vote for a system they dont believe in. Thats half the point of voting, showing you support the system.

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4 hours ago, Guest Account Ali said:

Yes but diversity does not equal= secular liberal democracy. Even liberalism has taken a downturn in recent years. For example, it is rather foolish to say the US will have most of its population be liberal. Since for a long time and even nowadays most of its population is conservative. And it is unlikely this will change in the US. So similarly in Iran. And even then what the reformist and conservative parties and most people in Iran know is that despite their slight political or social changes they all still greatly support wilayat e faqih. This also is unlikely to change. 

I can't tell if you think Iran is a totalitarian state or not. If you do, then Iran has a higher voter turnout than the US and UK's dead democracies. And yes even the supreme leader is indirectly elected since the council of experts appoints the supreme leader and members of the council of experts are voted directly in by the people. 

Just because you are conservative does not mean you do not believe in liberal values.  Most serious liberal thinkers were in fact quite conservative.

Also, although I wouldn't say the US is more democratic, a higher voter turnout does not necessarily mean more democracy.

 

Edited by King

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3 hours ago, King said:

Just because you are conservative does not mean you do not believe in liberal values.  Most serious liberal thinkers were in fact quite conservative.

Also, although I wouldn't say the US is more democratic, a higher voter turnout does not necessarily mean more democracy.

Yes I know. I never implied otherwise concerning liberals and conservatives being more similar than they thought socially. I just meant what I said originally since the entire debacle in Iran was economic and most of the differences between parties in Iran and the US are economic.

As for your second point. You have not been the first to bring up that contention. And others have responded to that point on this thread. So I give them the stage for that contention. 

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