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What do think about demonstrations in Iran

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15 hours ago, andres said:

You said the demonstrations must have been started by foreign powers, since Khamenei had not told the Iranians to demonstrate. This is a descrition of a leader with unlimited power. 

 

I was just thinking about our discussions.

As fas as i know, leader is a servant, serving for people not to be served by people.

Leader to be served by people is just like a queen/king of bee/ant (oranimals like that) whose job is just reproduction. (I am sorry if i put analogy wrongfully).

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10 hours ago, andres said:

It should be my descicion, not the descicion of my prime minister. Same with a person that is under investigation like Ahmedinejad. This would of course affect his chanses

 

Totally missed the point did we?

10 hours ago, andres said:

80 million or so live in Iran, how many demonstaters would you say it takes to determin that Khamenei has the sovereign support of his people?

The number of people that voted for Assembly.......? This isn't really rocket science man...why are you insisting on something that is pointless?

10 hours ago, andres said:

"Good job". You are pathrtic and generalising. Many western nations did not participate in the Iraq war. Sweden was against  Bushs war from the very start. Dont know if it is correct that during 17 years it cost a million lives. It may be true, the Iran-Iraq war lasted 7 years costed maybe the same. The Middle East is a mess. 

Oohhh good thing you mentioned Iran Iran war...who helped saddam? Go on..let's see how pathetic my claim really was...start with norway. Then go on to sweden and tell me what swedish "neutral" Saab Scania sold saddam, then come back and tell me how western countries want stability...or maybe you change your claim again?

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7 hours ago, Mohamed1993 said:

She also supported the Iraq war, she completely ignored Obama's poor policies, like most of the resistance to Trump, they want Obama back despite the fact that Obama had a lot of really bad policies too, he just had a better way of speaking. She talked about free speech being threatened under Trump, but Obama cracked down really hard on whistleblowers. But this is the problem, instead of learning their lesson, the democrats will now copy the republicans, have a celebrity run, focus on the fact that she's black and female and exploit this to get votes. The whole election cycle becomes just empty rhetoric and no real substance.  

USA is not a uniform nation. There is great differenve between the states, culturally, politically and in many other ways. The gap between rich and poor is huge, some have more influence than others, democrasy cannot change this, but all cAmericans have a right to vote and express their opinion. Trump in a democratic USA is much better than Trump as president in a totalitarian USA. Hopefully they do not prolong him.

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2 minutes ago, andres said:

some have more influence than others, democrasy cannot change this

This defies democracy, the one man, one vote policy. In a democracy, you'd have everyone that can run be a candidate, but that doesn't happen. Also, third parties get no coverage on the media, they aren't invited into debates. Basically the candidates you end up getting are those that are already pre-filtered by the rich. 

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52 minutes ago, repenter said:

 

Oohhh good thing you mentioned Iran Iran war...who helped saddam? Go on..let's see how pathetic my claim really was...start with norway. Then go on to sweden and tell me what swedish "neutral" Saab Scania sold saddam, then come back and tell me how western countries want stability...or maybe you change your claim again?

Are you demanding from Sweden that we only trade with democratic nations?

 

55 minutes ago, repenter said:

Totally missed the point did we?

Dont think so. You say I shall not hire a man to babysit if he is suspected of abusing children. I say suspicion may affect my descicion, but it is my descicion. Maybe I know the guy and that accusations are wrong.  Last Iranian election 99% of presitential candidates were forbidden to run for election. The forbidden may have been Sunni, Homo, Atheists, Communists, Women, Hindu or just not pleased by the Comitte. 

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1 hour ago, repenter said:

 

The number of people that voted for Assembly.......? This isn't really rocket science man...why are you insisting on something that is pointless?

Not sure what yoy mean. Polls properly made are pretty good at predeicting the result of the vote in a democrasy. Iran is not a democrasy, the Priest do not depend on votes like they had done, had elections been free. Polls could even ne dangerous. Elections are not free, therefor lots of Iranians 2009 suspected they were corrupted. How many Iranians believed this? Had it been in Sweden Polls had been made. Dont you sometimes doubt that  Kim Jong Un really got 99.9% of the votes and that 99% North Koreans voted?

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18 minutes ago, Mohamed1993 said:

This defies democracy, the one man, one vote policy. In a democracy, you'd have everyone that can run be a candidate, but that doesn't happen. Also, third parties get no coverage on the media, they aren't invited into debates. Basically the candidates you end up getting are those that are already pre-filtered by the rich. 

Candidates with a good intellect and speaking talent have an advantage over an uneducated person. Uneducated persons are normally also not rich. Avoiding huge gap between poor and rich is therefore essential in creating a better society. Free education and medical care is a must to obtain this. All this mean high taxes. As long as this is a tabu in USA I do not think there will be a change. Only the American voters can change this bad effect of the "American dream". Or have you got a better method? An Islamic revolution for instance?

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4 hours ago, andres said:

Are you demanding from Sweden that we only trade with democratic nations?

Really? That's your response? First you start out with democracy and human rights, then you say that actually west is only interested in a stable middle east, not so much about their democracy, then you ask me this? What do you think should be a proper response to such a well thought through question?

Isn't it easier to admit you are wrong and maybe....just maybe you need to rethink your ideas? 

4 hours ago, andres said:

Dont think so. You say I shall not hire a man to babysit if he is suspected of abusing children. I say suspicion may affect my descicion, but it is my descicion. Maybe I know the guy and that accusations are wrong.  Last Iranian election 99% of presitential candidates were forbidden to run for election. The forbidden may have been Sunni, Homo, Atheists, Communists, Women, Hindu or just not pleased by the Comitte. 

And it's the comittes decision to filter out those that according to law can't run. People having a criminal case going is one of them. Law that is created by people that are voted in. Whats your problem?

 

3 hours ago, andres said:

Not sure what yoy mean. Polls properly made are pretty good at predeicting the result of the vote in a democrasy. Iran is not a democrasy, the Priest do not depend on votes like they had done, had elections been free. Polls could even ne dangerous. Elections are not free, therefor lots of Iranians 2009 suspected they were corrupted. How many Iranians believed this? Had it been in Sweden Polls had been made. Dont you sometimes doubt that  Kim Jong Un really got 99.9% of the votes and that 99% North Koreans voted?

It's ok...not everyone can understand everything...clearly. There is a limit on how many different ways one can explain such a simple concept.

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17 hours ago, andres said:

Americans have a possibility to vote for persons of their own choise to take care of their interests. They can decide not to prolong Trump. Hopefully Iranians will obtain the same rights one day, peacefully, no revolution. Or do you think Iranians need some old Priests to decide for them?

what is it with ignorance and its insistence on revolutions? why not hope for the end of hunger? why not hope for a global fight against diseases? why not hope for mass education? why only hope for whatever the military industrial complex puts on its billboard...? your problem is that you are among the shias that are often brighter than the rest and do not realize the foolishness coming in your posts....maybe you find fraternal medium in some ISIS website with people who are zealous like you where you promote blowing them up while they chant for your head.

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6 hours ago, repenter said:

And it's the comittes decision to filter out those that according to law can't run. People having a criminal case going is one of them. Law that is created by people that are voted in. Whats your problem?

And so the comitte filters out 99% of those that wishes to run for presidency. Now also the former president that they must have missed filtering out when he was elected. Iranians of course choose their own system, but I have serious doubts if this system with Guardian Commity and an almighty Imam at top has got as many Iranian fans as will be necessary for it to survive.

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45 minutes ago, andres said:

And so the comitte filters out 99% of those that wishes to run for presidency. Now also the former president that they must have missed filtering out when he was elected. Iranians of course choose their own system, but I have serious doubts if this system with Guardian Commity and an almighty Imam at top has got as many Iranian fans as will be necessary for it to survive.

Good thing the legitimacy of the council isn't dependant on your doubts.....

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On 1/12/2018 at 3:15 AM, andres said:

but all cAmericans have a right to vote and express their opinion

This is withering away btw, slowly but surely, people are getting arrested and treated really badly for protesting and expressing their opinion. 

.

Edited by Mohamed1993

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Andres, I guess you're one of the last people who think the US is really a democracy. 

I'm not saying it is all bad. There are things about the US which are really good and nice, which is why I choose to live here rather than some other country. (Like the community college system, Social Security, the fact that we have environmental laws (which Trump is slowly taking away), and lots of nice sincere but many misguided and uninformed people). The US is not a bad place to live and Americans are not bad people, most of them anyway. If I thought it / they were, I would move somewhere else. 

But if you think it's a democracy, well, no it isn't. 

I can pull out one example, just to make this clear (there are many others). Why don't we have single payor health care like most developed countries in the world ? 

There have been so many studies done that show it would cost less, and people would be more healthy because they would use the system more. This increased health would lead to increased productivity and a better economy. Now look at who gives huge campaign contributions (millions of dollars) to political candidates, both Republican and Democrat. Big Pharma, Insurance Companies, Medical Device manufacturers like GE and Phillips. They are the ones who are benefitting from the current system. You know that it is illegal for doctors and hospitals to buy or prescribe medications that were obtained outside the US (even in Canada ? ). Why is that ? Why is it that people pay so many extra billions of dollars every years to Pharma companies ? They like doing that ? They voted for it ? No. It is because these companies give huge campaign contributions to both parties so that whoever is in office (Trump or Hillary, Republicans or Democrats) it doesn't matter because they are bought and paid for. 

You could look at almost any industry, Big Oil, Banks and Financial, Media Companies, Insurance, Defense Contracts, Manufacturing, and you would see those same relationships and the same rules set up that are there to benefit those large corporations and not the American people. It has gotten worse and more obvious under Trump (recent examples are the repeal of Net Neutrality and the supposed 'tax cut' which almost exclusively benefited the very wealth and large corporations) but if Hillary had gotten elected, it wouldn't have been much different. The US is a corporate oligarchy, not a democracy. The sooner you realize that the better for you. 

 

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8 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

Andres, I guess you're one of the last people who think the US is really a democracy. 

Maybe on Shiachat! But not in Europe and America. There is nothing such as a perfect democracy, and there are nations that are more democratic than USA. Iran certainly is not. 

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35 minutes ago, andres said:

Maybe on Shiachat! But not in Europe and America. There is nothing such as a perfect democracy, and there are nations that are more democratic than USA. Iran certainly is not. 

The  democracy invented in Greece because they couldn’t peak a leader from themselves as Iranians/Persians do it Persians always were a great nation with highest culture at that point fruit of current democracy is poverty , hunger & war around the world so what is its benefit for world except chaos & corruption around the world.

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38 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

The  democracy invented in Greece because they couldn’t peak a leader from themselves as Iranians/Persians do it Persians always were a great nation with highest culture at that point fruit of current democracy is poverty , hunger & war around the world so what is its benefit for world except chaos & corruption around the world.

Persia is indeed an impressive old culture.Is there less hunger, war, poverty, chaos and corruption in th Muslim world than in the Christian????

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1 hour ago, andres said:

Persia is indeed an impressive old culture.Is there less hunger, war, poverty, chaos and corruption in th Muslim world than in the Christian????

This is a temporary problem that Muslims suffer from that because of it they are waiting for reappearance of Imam Mahdi(aj) all of their governments are temporary until he reappears.

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11 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

This is a temporary problem that Muslims suffer from that because of it they are waiting for reappearance of Imam Mahdi(aj) all of their governments are temporary until he reappears.

As far as I know only 10% of all Muslims believe in the hidden Imam, but if Shias are right, the war between Muslim nations now has lasted so long that maybe we cannot call it temporary much longer. Lets hope for peace even if the Imam should never return.

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4 minutes ago, andres said:

As far as I know only 10% of all Muslims believe in the hidden Imam, but if Shias are right, the war between Muslim nations now has lasted so long that maybe we cannot call it temporary much longer. Lets hope for peace even if the Imam should never return.

Imam will return but we must be ready for his return he is always ready to reappear.

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2 hours ago, andres said:

Is there less hunger, war, poverty, chaos and corruption in th Muslim world than in the Christian????

You cannot say that without having into consideration historical context that paves the way for the present situation.

For example: What remains of the roman empire today are ruins, but you cannot say that the romans were nothing because of this.

In the golden age of the Islamic world, it was the world center of scientific research and discussions, back when the "christian world" was a gloomy toilet ridden with sickness and slaughters, scientific work would even be banned by the church. 

 

But judging from previous conversations in this thread, I do not think you value the point of reading history in judging the present that much.

Edited by IbnSina

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