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Iraq not part of any axis

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2 minutes ago, Irfani313 said:

Read between the lines brothers, read between the lines -

Iraq wants to be called a "non-aligned" country because that gives a face saving ego boost to her more powerful, war mongering GCC neighbors, who are clearly very successful agents of chaos but have no long term leverage left anymore. Iraq declaring itself non-aligned is a very slick strategy of ME Shia (read marajae') at large; what Iraq with its arsenal of Arabic language could do to confused masses of ME Sunnis, Iran could only imagine doing it, if ever.

For your solace, every non-aligned country already is a natural Iran ally. As an example, look at most of the left leaning Latin America, almost always in favor of Iran on global and regional issues. If you look further, Iran itself is a hugely non-aligned country; if not the unannounced leader of the non-aligned movement already; the core of the deep Iranian state is all about "no East - no West" strategically. Don't be confused with the monetarily alliance of Russia and China with Iran on Syrian issues.  

So sit back and relax. Nothing changes on the ground -  

That's all nice and good bro, until you remember Shi'a in Iraq don't rule alone. The interests of the Kurds, Arab Sunnis and other minorities is taken into account.

Also I don't get the bold part. Iraq's not out on a daw'ah mission.

There is a difference between Latin American countries and Iraq - Iraq is still a US and EU ally and relies on US and EU aid to even survive and get the country working. Latin America countries like Cuba, Venezuela etc.. are not US allies.

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9 minutes ago, Wahdat said:

Its wise to criticize Iran ONLY after the Shia killing groups like ISIS or Nusra or Saudi Family are neutralized.
Cuz otherwise what would Iraq do when the next ISIS is unleashed upon it? Rely on its good relations with Saudi Arabia to defeat it? Or maybe UAE or other countries that foment this inter-shia conflict? What about the next Kurdish secession move? I am sure that Micronesia aint gonna be of much help..... But I do have faith in the Shia scholars and Shia fraternity to neutralize such mischiefs. 

ISIS is neutralised mate. Kurdish secession is a thing of the past. 

And I haven't even criticised or brought up Iran in a critical manner. Lol

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1 minute ago, Sumerian said:

ISIS is neutralised mate. Kurdish secession is a thing of the past. 

And I haven't even criticised or brought up Iran in a critical manner. Lol

Yes thanks to Iran's help Iraq came out of both the storms in one piece....but do you think that those that created ISIS are just going to sit back and suck on their thumb while Iraqis give each other flowers and dance in little circles on the Iraqi streets? Are you familiar with the plot-after-plot-after-plot Iraqi history?

If you werent criticizing Iran then my post was not directed to you. 

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17 minutes ago, Wahdat said:

Yes thanks to Iran's help Iraq came out of both the storms in one piece....but do you think that those that created ISIS are just going to sit back and suck on their thumb while Iraqis give each other flowers and dance in little circles on the Iraqi streets? Are you familiar with the plot-after-plot-after-plot Iraqi history?

If you werent criticizing Iran then my post was not directed to you. 

There are still conspiracies to undermine Iraq but I believe bulk of the work is finished. Iraq came out of the war with ISIS stronger and more stable. I believe if Syria returns to Assad's rule, fully, once again, then Iraq will truly be safe and sound, militarily.

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20 hours ago, Forgottenthinker said:

Salam Alykum brother,

I wanted to stay away from this topic after my discussion with brother Hassan, but I have to point out quickly we Shia in Iraq support The respectable Ayatollah Sistani's fatwa which united Iraqis of all faiths to destroy the evil known as isis and return our honor, NOT Khamenei who we dislike.

May Allah reveal the truth to all of you

Salam

Who is this "we" you talk about?

If it wasnt for Ayatollah Khamenei you would have no country left to be so overly proud and nationalistic about.

If a man(Iran) sees his neighbors house burning(Iraq) and he runs to help him put it out, is that a bad man?

But when the same man whos house was burning(Iraq) and is now safe is asked to go and help put out the other peoples houses that are on fire(Syria), is it right for him to say: no, leave me alone?

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I don't think anyone is denying Iran helped Iraq fight off ISIS.  The issue is whether that naturally follows Iran influencing local Iraqi politics.  Most Iraqi's I have talked to do not want Iran influencing local politics in Iraq. They have little interest in WF or any sort of dominant shia rule given Iraq's complex ethnic/religious makeup and demographics.

As far as being part of an axis is concerned.  Given what the country has been through, it is probably a sensible policy at least for the foreseeable future.

 

Edited by King

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7 hours ago, King said:

I don't think anyone is denying Iran helped Iraq fight off ISIS.  The issue is whether that naturally follows Iran influencing local Iraqi politics.  Most Iraqi's I have talked to do not want Iran influencing local politics in Iraq. They have little interest in WF or any sort of dominant shia rule given Iraq's complex ethnic/religious makeup and demographics.

As far as being part of an axis is concerned.  Given what the country has been through, it is probably a sensible policy at least for the foreseeable future.

If Iran wanted to dominate or force its shia rule on anyone don't you think it would start with the sunnis and jews in Iran? How much money does Iran spend on aiding Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine? Tell me one demand it has asked for in return. Or name one village it has taken over. 

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7 hours ago, King said:

I don't think anyone is denying Iran helped Iraq fight off ISIS.  The issue is whether that naturally follows Iran influencing local Iraqi politics.  Most Iraqi's I have talked to do not want Iran influencing local politics in Iraq. They have little interest in WF or any sort of dominant shia rule given Iraq's complex ethnic/religious makeup and demographics.

As far as being part of an axis is concerned.  Given what the country has been through, it is probably a sensible policy at least for the foreseeable future.

The issue we have with this is, as brother @IbnSina previously said, it is immoral for them to ask Iran for help then not return the favour back after Iran saved their country from extinction.  

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People also fail to realise sayed sistani supports sayed khamenei, and if iraq had the same opportunities iran had be sure that sayed sistani will follow in the footsteps of imam Khomeini and will knockout all the aggressors, sayed sistani alone cannot bring a revolution but his one sentence is enough to inspire true shias in iraq to bring about an Islamic revolution, but like iraqi members on here are saying iraq wants to be a secular country whereas majority of iranians back in 1979 wanted an Islamic government with imam Khomeini as the leader, but I know for a fact their are shias in Iraq ready to sacrifice their lives for islam and to establish an islamic government under the guidance of sayed sistani, but again it's like do people want Imam Ali (as) or are they happy with their 'democratically elected' khalifas? knowing full well that one is the driver of the train to heaven and the other the rider of the chariot to hell 

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2 hours ago, Hassan- said:

The issue we have with this is, as brother @IbnSina previously said, it is immoral for them to ask Iran for help then not return the favour back after Iran saved their country from extinction.  

What favour does Iran need back though? What are we supposed to do now?

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1 hour ago, Sumerian said:

What favour does Iran need back though? What are we supposed to do now?

They think we owe them our support linguistically, politically, and most importantly militarily. Even though they didnt do anything expect sit on their thrones in Tehran and speak empty talk like usual

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20 hours ago, IbnSina said:

They could have removed Saddam back in the Iran Iraq war when the whole army of Saddam was at the front trying to invade, they didnt. The Iraqis who were against Saddam(la) were the majority, the price of AK47 will always be low, but they didnt remove him out of fear and selfishness and as a consequence of living under his rule all the rest of the suffering continued and the future became what it became. Yes, there were brave people who fought against him in whatever way they could but the majority did not.

This is the same kind of logic that was used to justify the United States invasion of Iraq...

Only difference is America tried to end the war on terror and bring "democracy" to Iraq, Iran is trying to defeat an already neutralized ISIS and bring "wilayah al faqih"  to Iraq.

It is bound to fail miserably. 

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar

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On 28/12/2017 at 2:49 AM, Forgottenthinker said:

Hello brother,

For your information I have religious Shia Iranian friends that were tortured under the Shah and Khomeini regimes and they told me stories of Afghan Shia that were spat at for simply looking Hazara. That not a Islamic republic. Also what type of Islamic republic supports Russia and China atheistic nations that abuse their own Muslim population? Iran simply has its own interests at mind not that of Muslims let alone Iraqis take that with a pinch of salt okay? All nations are like that. One last thing, in Iraq as I said to Hassan a majority of Shia Iraqis either dislike Iran or their views are neutral about it my family and friends despise it stop watching Press tv.

Salam

I understand brother. 

If we go back 1400 years, when Ali ibn Abi Talib returned from Jamal and or Siffin, there were also hypocrites in his army. If we look at the son of Ali, Imam al-Hassan, we find that when he needed men to fight against M'uaywiyah , what did they say to him? 'We are tired of fighting'. If we look at the call of Hussain ibn Ali, a small percentage properly committed to responding to him and began to make mischief.

I'm not going to lose sleep over rumours being spread to cause disunity among Shias and weaken one of main symbols of our strength, because the same things happened to divinely chosen Imams, and i'm not going to be naive to think it won't happen to fallible men in the 20th/21st century.

So let people think, and so what they wish. Allah is the one we will all have to answer to, and then we will know who are the wrongdoers. 

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13 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

This is the same kind of logic that was used to justify the United States invasion of Iraq...

Only difference is America tried to end the war on terror and bring "democracy" to Iraq, Iran is trying to defeat an already neutralized ISIS and bring "wilayah al faqih"  to Iraq.

Where are you getting this from brother? I sincerely hope it isn't from people you know who may notoriously be opposed to Iran and are lying to you and misguiding you. May Allah guide whoever is misguiding you with this information. 

If we study this deeply, examine the historical sources and what has actually transpired objectively, Iran has no plans to take over Iraq under WF. Are you aware that a lot of work was done not only by Iran, but other Shia groups globally to help fight ISIS? Iran contributed enormously to that effort and resistance, while unfortunately, many of the Sunnis bent over backwards and allowed ISIS to reign supreme , or fled their posts and positions. 

Shias, with a united effort, are the ones who have kept ISIS and Alqaeda rebels at bay in Iraq and Syria. Not Iranians, not Iraqis, not Lebanese, but Shias. This effort to bring disunity among us will cause the end of all of us. Iran attempted to assist Iraq in fighting Daesh/ISIS from the very beginning. The claim they only stepped in very late after Daesh was already neutralised is false, and simply not true. Not only did they help directly in Iraq, they also assisted in the fight against ISIS from the Syrian side as well.

This disunity among Shias has got to end. 

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3 hours ago, Sumerian said:

What favour does Iran need back though? What are we supposed to do now?

SubhanAllah, unite as brothers in faith. Work together. Be intelligent and know there are intelligence agencies who not only know the difference between the Shia and the Sunni, but the intricate differences between Shias. They have academics advising them on the ins and outs of WF, Marjiyaat, and the rest of it. They have academics who could tell apart Saduq from Mufid and know much more about Shi'sm the the majority of this board, speakers fluent in Arabic, Farsi, and even the dialectical variants. This is all proven. They want to sow the seeds of division among us, and they know that is the best way to get us.

United we stand, divided we fall.

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17 hours ago, Sumerian said:

You have no idea what you're talking about and you have disrespected Iraqis who are the crown upon everyone's head once again.

You think removing Saddam is easy? Get a load of this! In 1991 when Saddam was kicked out of Kuwait, his rule was at its weakest point, his Army was a shambles and Iraq was dying due to international sanctions. 

Do you know who rose up? The Shi'a, and they were well equipped with heavy weaponry, backed by Iran and some even say Syria. And they were also fighting at the same time as the Kurdish rebels in the North were. 

Do you know what happened? Saddam still maintained his rule. And that was Saddam at his weakest point. Now you imagine what would have happened if that was Saddam at his peak.

You keep acting like Shias are a huge majority in Iraq, under Saddam both sects were very close in numbers. Closer than today, and today is still close. This isn't Iran where 90% of the population are Shi'a.

Use your brain, think and read before you embarrass yourself with such a pathetic comment. It is obvious your understanding of Iraq is weak so I suggest you stick to speaking about countries you know about, rather than opening your mouth to which we then have to read such garbage.

I've got to agree with you to a point. The Shia Iraqis suffered considerably under Saddam who would have slaughtered and quelled the vast majority of rebellion. He did so even in Kerbala when the Shias tried to mount an uprising. It  is not easy to overthrow a man like Saddam, who was absolutely ruthless. 

However the one point i just want to correct you on is in the percentage of Shias verses Sunnis:

55% of Iraqis are Shia.

36% are Sunnis (including many non-religious secular type Kurds)

the rest are divided into other groups.

You have Iran on one side, and Syria on another (but Syria is a little compromised right now).  Shias are comfortably the largest group, and are almost 20% larger than Sunnis. I would say you guys also have most numbers in the most important cities too.

Source: 2003 US state department: https://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2003/24452.htm

By the way , i am not saying this to correct the meaning of what you are saying, but as a source of happiness and (innocent) pride at the fact Shias are much larger in Iraq compared to Sunnis.  In terms of D'awah, are people not aware that Ahlulbayt TV is founded and run mostly by Iraqis ? That in Iraq, we had many Arabic TV channels taking the fight to the Salafis and those attacking us? 

CIA website claims it is 55-60%: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/iz.html

Edited by Intellectual Resistance

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If our scholars don't realise the need for unity behind Shias and are not going to take proactive steps towards it, and people wake up to the disunity and take a path to strength in unity,  i'm sorry but a random individual like myself online isn't going to have the power to do it, save if Allah wills. 

"Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves. " - Noble Quran

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44 minutes ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

55% of Iraqis are Shia.

36% are Sunnis (including many non-religious secular type Kurds)

the rest are divided into other groups.

Wrong Shia are 63 percent of Iraq. You are kind of right before 1991 Saddam tried to bring in poor Sunni Egyptians to out populate us but the American sanctions forced all the imported Sunni Arabs to go back making us back around 67 percent but through genocide during the nineties and forced expulsion we were lowered to what we are now, 63 percent. Just correcting

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56 minutes ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

Where are you getting this from brother? I sincerely hope it isn't from people you know who may notoriously be opposed to Iran and are lying to you and misguiding you.

Just an observation that I made on this thread, IbnSina's words are eerily similar to the way I hear some justify the invasion of Iraq. Utterly sad, I don't always agree with Sumerian but you two don't understand Iraq and talking about something that you know little about.

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Sources of anti-Iranian sentiment:

1. Extremist Shias who are neither Arab nor Iraqi. They often hate on Iranian leadership because Sayed Khomeini, Khamanei and others have banned certain extremist rituals in Muharram. If anyone has been brought up or been part to a community like this, as i have partially (but i'm very mixed race ) they will understand just how much a number of people of a certain segment of that community value Tatbir, and extreme acts of mourning. They know that even within these communities, if the larger sensible majority seeks to control the radical minority, that radical minority will not stop at anything to abuse and find ways of attacking the others. They will spread distorted rumours, and use dirty tricks, and it can sometimes get heated and violent in many cases. Not all are like this, but in many cases in can get like this. Individuals of this community have performed L'anah on Sayed Khamanei and have even gone so far as to discredit him and remain neutral on sayed Khomeini. I've been personally victim to this myself, and have had a lot of abuse. 

2. Salafis and radical-type Sunnis. They loathe knowing that there is a sovereign Shia majority country , especially one like Iran, the home of men like Imam Bukhari, Muslim and so many prolific and revered scholars in the Sunni world. They loathe any symbol of Shia power, for Shias they say are the Majors (zoroastrian) cancer in the Ummah. I have extensive links with Salafis to know enough about the fact very few things get underneath their skin more than any symbol of Shia strength, influence and independence. 

3. Governments who see Iran as an obstacle to enacting their vision in the Middle East. This falls under geopolitics and incredible amounts of money are thrown into think-tanks and organisations to find any way to weaken Iran. This involves sowing discord among Shias on tribal, racial and theological differences. 

4. Iraqis who have undergone immense persecution and torture under Saddam, a very poor economy, several wars, the rise of sectarianism and Daesh/ISIS, and feel as though any association with Iran , even if it for the goal of resistance is going to put them under immense compromise. They just want peace, and they are not concerned with being part of any group that defends truth. They've been through a lot of suffering and they just want it to end.

5. Iraqis who have been convinced , mainly falsely, that Iran wants to take over Iraq, and impose itself on the Iraqi people. Individuals like Muqtada al-Sadr have used poverty in Iraq , as well as sentiments such as these that crept in to rouse people and gain popularity through populist messages. 

6. Iraqis who are a lot more versed in Shia Islam and have theological differences and side with the view of some Marji' in Iraq, and certain ones like Sayed Shirazi. This encompasses the concept of WF which i am happy to guess 85-90% of people commenting about it on Shiachat haven't a clue what it really means.  They might have known 'scholars' who caused trouble in Iran and were reprimanded, or they may continue to spread false rumours and exaggerated claims.

7. Tribal, racial and ethnic pride. This is the negative kind of pride, whereby one group is made to fear another group, even if the other group does not posses danger over them. They are duped into hating the first group because they are told that group will infiltrate it and take over, and arguments are used that cunningly exploit tribal , racial and ethnic sentiments that exist in the minds of some more prone to falling for traps like that.

Not an exhaustive list, and i have not looked at it from literally every single angle, but it is a good starting point. And you know what? The moment more people begin to realise this growing divide among Shias they are going to throw themselves at causing further disunity. And then when we have been divided, broken up, don't for a moment think they are going to come in and put crowns on the heads of some of us. Nay. We would have just been fools who fell for it.

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10 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Just an observation that I made on this thread, Ibn Sina's words are eerily similar to the way I hear some justify the invasion of Iraq. Utterly sad, I don't always agree with Sumerian but you two don't understand Iraq and talking about something that you know little about.

Are you aware i've assisted several brothers in their degree dissertations on Iraq and Shia divisions based on theological divides? [Not writing it, but the very long process of going through many books, many research papers and in-depth discussions about the material]. I know more than a thing or two about it, and have delved into certain angles fairly deeply. You've judged i don't know about Iraq without really asking me much about it, and if you were to read my latest replies, you will find i've actually agreed with brother Sumerian on a number of things.

I'm not here to quarrel, or to cause a brother in Faith like yourself to dislike me or nurse a grudge based on disagreeing on something like this, but whenever i say something, i make sure i have some good level of confidence i have done more than what is expected to educate myself. 

Edited by Intellectual Resistance

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23 minutes ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

Are you aware i've assisted more than one person in writing a degree dissertation on Iraq? I know more than a thing or two about it, and have delved into certain angles fairly deeply

No, how would I be aware of that? But doesn't mean that you were right, I may not have studied Iraq as deeply as you have but I do know that Iraq needs to stablise and be independent of Iran or any other foreign power after 45 years of instability.

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23 minutes ago, Forgottenthinker said:

Wrong Shia are 63 percent of Iraq. You are kind of right before 1991 Saddam tried to bring in poor Sunni Egyptians to out populate us but the American sanctions forced all the imported Sunni Arabs to go back making us back around 67 percent but through genocide during the nineties and forced expulsion we were lowered to what we are now, 63 percent. Just correcting

I sourced my figure from a 2003 report by the United States. 

Here is a report, last updated December 20th 2017, from the CIA (Central Intelligence Agency): https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/iz.html

They estimate the percentage of Shias being 55-60%.  The greater the number , the better it is and the happier i would be. My point was to demonstrate to brother Sumerian that the proportions of Shias verses Sunnis are not close, Shias are in a clear majority of at around 20%, and have greater numbers in key cities.  You're right about Saddam (la) by the way, he did do those things, and had it not been for him, maybe Shias would have been an even larger percentage.  

Whether it is 55% , 60%, or 63%, the point here brother is that there are far more Shias than Sunnis in Iraq, and more Shias in the key cities.  

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10 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

No, how would I be aware of that? But doesn't mean that you were right, I may not have studied Iraq as deeply as you have but I do know that Iraq needs to stablise and be independent of Iran or any other foreign power after 45 years of instability.

You had claimed i know nothing about Iraq. This is a judgement which effectively says in less polite words, i know nothing about what i am talking.  There is a difference between 'I disagree with your opinion and you are mistaken in your evaluation' and 'you know nothing about what you are talking.

I agree with you brother , Iraq needs stability and that's why many people don't want to be part of any resistance axis. They just want out, they want to go and do their own thing and have peace and stability and stay neutral.  Iraq has had to heavily rely on Iran, for support in instability, help against the military fight against ISIS , Saddam and the likes for a while. It would be great if they could fix things on their own, but there is no harm in cooperation. 

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