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How can we prove taqleed to akhbaari?

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3 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

1) I have been talking about Shekih Tusi for 3 pages. You have barely mentioned this pious and great scholar. The only confusion is on your part where you constant assume things which make you seem 'slower and slower' if you know what I mean. I will say it again that hadith collection and jurisprudence are different. The only reason I have to spell it out is because you are utterly confused.  The other brothers who corrected me thought i was writing 'in general' when I was specifically talking about Sheikh Tusi and mentioned it on page 1. The problem here is that you are trying to convince me that it is okay for Akhbaris to reject Sheikh Tusi's stance on jurisprudence but accept his hadith collection. And you say "what if Shaykh Tusi only collected as you say pro usuli hadith". It matters because it would show Sheikh Tusi had a clear bias and was not sincere in his hadith collection. If such was the case, then he would not be trustworthy. Now let's say he was sincere in his collection and thus deemed trustworthy, then why not trust his stance on jurisprudence? Why trust the stance of another layman or less scholar who says no to jurisprudence? Based on what qualifications do they take the word of an individual to reject jurisprudence over the word of Tusi to accept jurispudence?

I fully realize you don't have answer, just confusion.

Lol. Go through all my posts on SC and you will see me quoting Bukhari a lot more than you. Unfortunately when it comes to you, everything has to be spelled out. Now you will say that SM14 hinks Bukhari is hujjah upon him - go ahead and write it, I know you are thinking it.

Like I said, you rehash everything I say trying to seem smart.

So you answer is one doesnt explain taqleed to an Akhbari. So why are you on this thread then? I guess to correct me.

Lol, with so many attacks it seems like my bro is on a losing wicket.  Rest in other post.

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22 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

1) I have been talking about Shekih Tusi for 3 pages. You have barely mentioned this pious and great scholar. The only confusion is on your part where you constant assume things which make you seem 'slower and slower' if you know what I mean. I will say it again that hadith collection and jurisprudence are different. The only reason I have to spell it out is because you are utterly confused.  The other brothers who corrected me thought i was writing 'in general' when I was specifically talking about Sheikh Tusi and mentioned it on page 1. The problem here is that you are trying to convince me that it is okay for Akhbaris to reject Sheikh Tusi's stance on jurisprudence but accept his hadith collection. And you say "what if Shaykh Tusi only collected as you say pro usuli hadith". It matters because it would show Sheikh Tusi had a clear bias and was not sincere in his hadith collection. If such was the case, then he would not be trustworthy. Now let's say he was sincere in his collection and thus deemed trustworthy, then why not trust his stance on jurisprudence? Why trust the stance of another layman or less scholar who says no to jurisprudence? Based on what qualifications do they take the word of an individual to reject jurisprudence over the word of Tusi to accept jurispudence?

I fully realize you don't have answer, just confusion.

Lol. Go through all my posts on SC and you will see me quoting Bukhari a lot more than you. Unfortunately when it comes to you, everything has to be spelled out. Now you will say that SM14 hinks Bukhari is hujjah upon him - go ahead and write it, I know you are thinking it.

Like I said, you rehash everything I say trying to seem smart.

So you answer is one doesnt explain taqleed to an Akhbari. So why are you on this thread then? I guess to correct me.

In your defence you have quoted below that you quote Bukhari a lot more than me. Should explain things to you bro that being against Bukhari is not the same as not accepting his correct as per us  Hadith. 

Being trustworthy  and as I explained in last post about science of hadith collection. These hadith do not belong to Shaykh Tusi but his opinion on jurisprudence is his own. So one cannot not accept the hadith but the interpretation and opinion one has the choice not to accept. 

We are not the talibs that all have to agree on our opinions. 

Are we on the same page now and do keep asking your questions if there are any further confusions. 

BTW are you aware of Ayatullah Khoei's stance on Taqleed with regards to sources and that probably sums up for all others' as well.

Edited by haideriam

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1 hour ago, haideriam said:

Lol, with so many attacks it seems like my bro is on a losing wicket.  Rest in other post.

Losing wicket??? Based on your hiatus, I had forgotten how much everything had to be spelled out for you or else you jump to unwarranted and wasteful conclusions. If I must be more verbose with you, then so be it.

1 hour ago, haideriam said:

In your defence you have quoted below that you quote Bukhari a lot more than me. Should explain things to you bro that being against Bukhari is not the same as not accepting his correct as per us  Hadith. 

I take selective hadith from Bukhari but reject him overall. Akhbaris take Tusi's entire collection of hadith but partially reject him. I know you can't tell the difference but it is the exact opposite.

1 hour ago, haideriam said:

Being trustworthy  and as I explained in last post about science of hadith collection. These hadith do not belong to Shaykh Tusi but his opinion on jurisprudence is his own. So one cannot not accept the hadith but the interpretation and opinion one has the choice not to accept. 

I am surprised you haven't claimed to teach me the alphabet yet. Your cursory explanation was useless since the discussion is not about the science of hadith collection. It seems like you want to defend the akhbari position but are hesitant to do so you are side tracking in hadith sciences, etc. 

Since you seem to be ever so knowledgeable on this topic and so ready to impart wisdom onto me, give me a detailed explanation of what Tahdhib Al-Ahkam and Al-Istibsar are about. How are they similar to Bukhari and how do they differ?

1 hour ago, haideriam said:

Are we on the same page now and do keep asking your questions if there are any further confusions. 

Well, I am still confused about how do you prove taqleed to an Akhbari - the topic at hand. You have done a great job at explaining things which I already knew. In some areas, you even repeated what I said pretending to further explain. Its all good though since repetitions is a form of learning.  

Since you seem to be ever so knowledgeable on this topic and so ready to impart wisdom onto me, give me a detailed explanation of what Tahdhib Al-Ahkam and Al-Istibsar are about. How are they similar to Bukhari and how do they differ?

1 hour ago, haideriam said:

BTW are you aware of Ayatullah Khoei's stance on Taqleed with regards to sources and that probably sums up for all others' as well.

Even though I know his exact stance , please enlighten me again with your wisdom?

Edited by shiaman14

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26 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

 

I take selective hadith from Bukhari but reject him overall. Akhbaris take Tusi's entire collection of hadith but partially reject him.

 

Since you seem to be ever so knowledgeable on this topic and so ready to impart wisdom onto me, give me a detailed explanation of what Tahdhib Al-Ahkam and Al-Istibsar are about. How are they similar to Bukhari and how do they differ?

 

Even though I know his exact stance , please enlighten me again with your wisdom?

1. Can you see bro where you are heading by making reference to Bukhari. Him you do not trust yet take hadith from him. Does this tell you that the hadith no matter how collected is different from the person and his opinion or not as in his case. Luckily in the case of Shaykh  Tusi you trust him and take the hadith but not his opinion as that opinion is his own and is subjective to his interpretation. The opinions are not the words of the hadith but only the opinions are the words of the scholar. The Akhbari brothers might have serious disagreement with our present scholars but when that scholar narrates a hadith from the books they will not reject it. 

2. Look up google and especially wikishia please for that will save space for staying on topic.

3. If you know then I do not need to repeat it, and so does his stance make it any clearer that hadith and opinions are separate.

Thanks bro and if there is anything further please do not hesitate.

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3 hours ago, haideriam said:

1. Can you see bro where you are heading by making reference to Bukhari. Him you do not trust yet take hadith from him. Does this tell you that the hadith no matter how collected is different from the person and his opinion or not as in his case. Luckily in the case of Shaykh  Tusi you trust him and take the hadith but not his opinion as that opinion is his own and is subjective to his interpretation. The opinions are not the words of the hadith but only the opinions are the words of the scholar. The Akhbari brothers might have serious disagreement with our present scholars but when that scholar narrates a hadith from the books they will not reject it. 

Wow, there you go knowledgifying me again. So hadith and opinion are different? I think if you say it one more time, I will definitely get it.

 

3 hours ago, haideriam said:

2. Look up google and especially wikishia please for that will save space for staying on topic.

You are my wikishia. You tell me. ShiaChat has enough space.

3 hours ago, haideriam said:

3. If you know then I do not need to repeat it, and so does his stance make it any clearer that hadith and opinions are separate.

But everything I know seems to be incorrect according to you so please enlighten me.

3 hours ago, haideriam said:

Thanks bro and if there is anything further please do not hesitate.

Yes, #2 and #3 above please. You are so kind. Thanks for imparting knowledge onto me. 

 

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On 12/29/2017 at 9:07 PM, haideriam said:

Excellent point brother.  Just have to remember and keep in mind that the Quran is one of the two weighty things as well. 

Thanks brother. Jazakallah khairan. 
I think their disagreement is not with the Qur'an bit. They diverge from us in approaching the Ahlul bayt [as]. Qur'an, no doubt, is one of the Thaqalayn, but the key to unlock its secrets are the Ahlul Bayt [as], and our Ulama and Maraja[Allah (swt)'s mercy and blessings upon them all] are the custodians of the Ahlul bayt (as)'s heritage.
Each of the two weighty things is incomplete without the other.

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[S.V. Mir Ahmad Ali  2:2]  This is the book; there is no doubt in it, {it is} a guidance to those who safeguard themselves with full awareness of divine laws.

I think the bold above is a beautiful translation of the word 'muttaqin' and like different signs are sufficient for different people this suffices for me in that in order to ensure, or let us for arguments sake say closer to, the requirement of getting as close to the divine order with the maximum certainty, one definitely has to refer to one who is more knowledgeable for without that one is lost. This is especially valid in these times of life being easy and yet not easy because of information overload and false information. 

I know they have their own arguments for this also but on the flip side life is made so much safer and easier by just consulting the risala of your marja on the net in English and that is that.

They might say that we act on differing fatwas but the same applies to them for they act on differing hadith and that is what we entrust the marja to do. The marja does not sit in a room sorting this stuff out but rather he presents his 'paper' to his seniors and peers and students and it is after that scrutiny only does he form an opinion/get the approval on just one fatwa.  The difference of a knowledgeable man is progression whereas the difference of an ignorant person is 'fitnah' And this is where the 1 reward for a wrong ijtehad and 2 for a right one comes in. Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى loves striving in his cause and for his sake as per the prescribed route and methodology for otherwise your rebellious nature is coming through. 

May Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى save us all. 

 

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1 hour ago, haideriam said:

[S.V. Mir Ahmad Ali  2:2]  This is the book; there is no doubt in it, {it is} a guidance to those who safeguard themselves with full awareness of divine laws.

I think the bold above is a beautiful translation of the word 'muttaqin' and like different signs are sufficient for different people this suffices for me in that in order to ensure, or let us for arguments sake say closer to, the requirement of getting as close to the divine order with the maximum certainty, one definitely has to refer to one who is more knowledgeable for without that one is lost. This is especially valid in these times of life being easy and yet not easy because of information overload and false information. 

I know they have their own arguments for this also but on the flip side life is made so much safer and easier by just consulting the risala of your marja on the net in English and that is that.

They might say that we act on differing fatwas but the same applies to them for they act on differing hadith and that is what we entrust the marja to do. The marja does not sit in a room sorting this stuff out but rather he presents his 'paper' to his seniors and peers and students and it is after that scrutiny only does he form an opinion/get the approval on just one fatwa.  The difference of a knowledgeable man is progression whereas the difference of an ignorant person is 'fitnah' And this is where the 1 reward for a wrong ijtehad and 2 for a right one comes in. Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى loves striving in his cause and for his sake as per the prescribed route and methodology for otherwise your rebellious nature is coming through. 

May Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى save us all. 

 

This is fantastically insightful. Can you please provide the same insight into the 2 books by Sheikh Tusi that make part of the Kitab Al-Arbah and of course insight into Ayatollah Al-Khoei's treatise on taqleed.

Happy New Year.

Edited by shiaman14

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On 1/1/2018 at 3:58 AM, haideriam said:

Happy New Year to you my brother and to all brothers and sisters

Can you please provide the same insight into the 2 books by Sheikh Tusi that make part of the Kitab Al-Arbah and of course insight into Ayatollah Al-Khoei's treatise on taqleed.

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