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How can we prove taqleed to akhbaari?

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42 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

sunnis don't accept Bukhari 's hadith AND reject following him

 

says who????  reread the wiki page.

Not your conjecture, bring proof if you have it..

Edited by haideriam

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3 hours ago, haideriam said:

says who????  reread the wiki page.

Not your conjecture, bring proof if you have it..

For a moment, I forgot who I was dealing with.

I said, "Akhbari's take hadith books from our scholars but reject the scholars"

You said: "This is the normal and correct methodology in that when we want to prove something to a Sunni we use their books and not ours for ours are not a hujjah on them"

I said, "A sunni believes in Muhammad Al-Bukhari and so relies on his books. An Akbari does not believe in the scholars but still uses their books and works to create his own beliefs and therein lies their sheer stupidity."

You said. "The Sunnis use the book of Ahadhees compiled by Bukhari but do not do the taqleed of Bukhari. "

I said, "Yes, I am well aware. The point is sunnis don't accept Bukhari 's hadith and reject following him. Whereas Akhbaris take the books but reject the very scholars that wrote those books."

Perhaps I need to break it down more for you - (read the blue together and the red together)

The point is sunnis don't "accept Bukhari 's hadith + reject following him".

Akhbaris do "accept Tusi's book + reject following Tusi

Sunnis do "accept Bukhari 's hadith + follow him"

 

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8 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

 

There you go the whole conjecture drama story

WHERE IS YOUR PROOF for 

11 hours ago, haideriam said:

sunnis don't accept Bukhari 's hadith AND reject following him

Let me know when you have it from credible sources. 

Bukhari is one of the most sacred book for the sunnies after the Quran.  BUT and listen carefully BUT they do not do TAQLEED of Bukhari.

They do TAQLEED of Abu Hanifa, Malik, Shaafi and Hanbal. (Surprisingly you say you understand)

Are we clear so far????? 

 

Edited by haideriam

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17 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

For a moment, I forgot who I was dealing with.

BTW, have you not crossed this bridge yet of old acrimony. Just let it go and the pressure of making sound judgement will become easier. 

No need to reply to this one.  Just concentrate on the accepting a hadees book and taqleed bit. 

Thanks. 

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12 hours ago, haideriam said:

There you go the whole conjecture drama story

WHERE IS YOUR PROOF for 

Let me know when you have it from credible sources. 

Bukhari is one of the most sacred book for the sunnies after the Quran.  BUT and listen carefully BUT they do not do TAQLEED of Bukhari.

They do TAQLEED of Abu Hanifa, Malik, Shaafi and Hanbal. (Surprisingly you say you understand)

Are we clear so far????? 

 

what part do you need proof for?

Sunnis accept Bukhari
Sunnis follow the rulings of Bukhari
Therefore sunnis dont "accept Bukhari hadith + reject follow the rulings from Bukhari"
Therefore sunnis do "accept Bukhari hadith + follow the rulings from Bukhari"

This is probably a little complicated for you. I remember when we had to learn you basic arithmetic.

 

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On 21/12/2017 at 8:08 PM, shiaman14 said:

 

sunnis don't accept Bukhari 's hadith AND reject following him

Just prove this bit from a credible source for now.

We will get to the rest later

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13 minutes ago, haideriam said:

Just prove this bit from a credible source for now.

We will get to the rest later

Please enlighten me here - do sunnis " accept Bukhari 's hadith AND reject following him " both things together

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On 21/12/2017 at 8:08 PM, shiaman14 said:

sunnis don't accept Bukhari 's hadith AND reject following him

I am losing count bro of the number of times I am asking you credible proof of what you stated above. 

Should not take you long should it., for it is your statement so I should not have to decipher or explain it. 

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13 minutes ago, haideriam said:

I am losing count bro of the number of times I am asking you credible proof of what you stated above. 

Should not take you long should it., for it is your statement so I should not have to decipher or explain it. 

That's rights. Math is not your strong point. But I will be as patient as I need to be because limited-understanding people need more attention.

In math, IT and logic,

TRUE+TRUE = TRUE

TRUE+FALSE = FALSE

FALSE+FALSE = FALSE

Now my statements:

Sunnis accept Bukhari hadith = TRUE

Sunnis reject following Bukhari hadith = FALSE (since they do follow Bukhari hadith and issue rulings from it)

TRUE+FALSE = FALSE

So my statement "Sunnis don't " accept Bukhari 's hadith AND reject following him " is true.

I have repeated told you that you are reading wrong. I am not saying "sunni don't accept Bukhari ' s hadith" . I am saying sunnis don't " accept Bukhari 's hadith AND reject following him "

Here it is another way:

Sunnis don't ( accept Bukhari 's hadith AND reject following him )

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On 21/12/2017 at 8:08 PM, shiaman14 said:

sunnis don't accept Bukhari 's hadith AND reject following him
sunnis do accept Bukhari 's hadith AND accept following him

I asked you for credible references which you have failed to provide and in your explanation you forgot the second bit here .

As you seem to have no credible reference from a sunni source let me ask you a second question

Who is following Bukhari?

The sunnis do not follow Bukhari but follow Abu Hanifa, Malik, Shaafi and Hanbal. 

Are you beginning to understand bro?

Once you have understood this we can then get to the Akhbari bit and the methodology I explained in my first post. 

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lol. 

@shiaman14 @haideriam let me clear the confusion.

shiaman14 is saying that the sunnis accept bukharis hadith and follow him as well. but akhbaris are showing double standards by accepting the hadith of scholars but not following the scholars. 

truth is, sunnis accept bukharis hadith. yes. but they dont follow him. the reason is that the hadith are not of imam bukhari. the hadith is a saying of the prophet. sunnis, as well as akhbaris, accept the sayings of the prophet. even if imam bukhari hadnt collected those ahadith, sunnis would have accepted those ahadith in whichever book they found them. not because they follow scholars. but because the follow hadith.

as haideriam said, sunnis do taqleed of the 4 imams, not of imam bukhari or muslim. taqleed means to accept and follow someone without asking for evidence. blind following. the reason sunnis follow the book of bukhari is because it contains the sayings of the prophet pbuh, which in itself is evidence. hence accepting hadith is not called taqlid. if you were to bring a saying of imam bukhari, most sunnis wouldnt consider it hujjah/evidence and would not follow it. i say most sunnis because there are idiots everywhere. whereas if you brought a saying of one of the 4 imams, they would accept it.

P.S. i am saying imam bukhari in order to differentiate the person from his book bukhari. 

Edited by just a muslim

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Many a thanks brothers just a muslim and Sirius_Bright. I was hoping for this kind, just and perhaps better worded interjections from both of you and even from others. 

Re the methodology,  we will debate and discuss with sunnis using Bukhari without accepting the book and it is for precisely the reason that the sunnis accept the book(hadith in the book). 

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On 19/12/2017 at 6:38 PM, Sirius_Bright said:

The greats like Saduq and Tusi collected and compiled traditions of fiqh according to the topics and people used to refer it for their day to day life issues.

 

On 19/12/2017 at 7:12 PM, shiaman14 said:

Essentially, that is what taqleed is. 

and bro this is not what taqleed is. Taqleed is following the risala and or the fatawa of your Marja which he derives from a plethora of Ahadith and Quranic verses. 

This takes the form of Dars e Kharij which he presents to his seniors, peers and students by consolidating all material as above and if necessary the derivation of the usool within them to answer about the newly developing circumstances. 

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On 12/22/2017 at 5:37 PM, haideriam said:

I asked you for credible references which you have failed to provide and in your explanation you forgot the second bit here .

As you seem to have no credible reference from a sunni source let me ask you a second question 

Looks like time away from SC has don't you no good.

21 hours ago, just a muslim said:

lol. 

@shiaman14 @haideriam let me clear the confusion.

shiaman14 is saying that the sunnis accept bukharis hadith and follow him as well. but akhbaris are showing double standards by accepting the hadith of scholars but not following the scholars. 

Thanks brother. HIA understood quite well what I wrote. There is a long history behind the attitude and the "fake" confusion.

On 12/22/2017 at 5:37 PM, haideriam said:

Who is following Bukhari?

The sunnis do not follow Bukhari but follow Abu Hanifa, Malik, Shaafi and Hanbal. 

 

21 hours ago, just a muslim said:

truth is, sunnis accept bukharis hadith. yes. but they dont follow him. the reason is that the hadith are not of imam bukhari. the hadith is a saying of the prophet. sunnis, as well as akhbaris, accept the sayings of the prophet. even if imam bukhari hadnt collected those ahadith, sunnis would have accepted those ahadith in whichever book they found them. not because they follow scholars. but because the follow hadith.

I am well aware of the 4 Sunni schools and the history of the 4 Imams but thanks all the same. Fact is modern and historic Sunni scholars use Bukhari to issue rulings so indirectly Imam Bukhari is being followed or at the very least relied upon.

18 hours ago, haideriam said:

Many a thanks brothers just a muslim and Sirius_Bright. I was hoping for this kind, just and perhaps better worded interjections from both of you and even from others. 

I said what they said. Blinders???

4 hours ago, haideriam said:

 

This takes the form of Dars e Kharij which he presents to his seniors, peers and students by consolidating all material as above and if necessary the derivation of the usool within them to answer about the newly developing circumstances. 

Lol. I will tell you and then someone will tell you so you understand but the way our hawzas are setup today is very different from the yesteryears.

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On 21/12/2017 at 7:09 PM, shiaman14 said:

I thought this didnt need explaining but anyway:

 

On 21/12/2017 at 8:08 PM, shiaman14 said:

Only misunderstanding is your english. Read slowly:

 

On 22/12/2017 at 12:18 AM, shiaman14 said:

For a moment, I forgot who I was dealing with.

 

On 22/12/2017 at 9:15 PM, shiaman14 said:

This is probably a little complicated for you. I remember when we had to learn you basic arithmetic.

 

On 22/12/2017 at 10:48 PM, shiaman14 said:

That's rights. Math is not your strong point. But I will be as patient as I need to be because limited-understanding people need more attention.

 

3 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Looks like time away from SC has don't you no good.

Thanks brother. HIA understood quite well what I wrote. There is a long history behind the attitude and the "fake" confusion.

I said what they said. Blinders???

 

On 22/12/2017 at 5:31 PM, haideriam said:

BTW, have you not crossed this bridge yet of old acrimony. Just let it go and the pressure of making sound judgement will become easier. 

Thanks. 

Looks like my bro has not moved on, hey just relax and please do not go back to yester time where you were wrong and ran away and I honestly thought you had learnt and were being regretful. Problem is you bring too much conjecture and unnecessary drama into the situation that you loose focus and over complicate things not just for yourself but others too. 

Please my bro let it go and focus on what is being discussed. 

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If both of you brothers @haideriam and @shiaman14 can stop arguing on what you believe. They are more or less same thing.

I wonder why don't anyone now start a thread 'Unity within Shias'. Why don't anyone feel that zionists are trying to divide the shias within for such petty things.

Fighting among ourselves and longing for unity with others is stupidity. Please behave with your Momin brothers.

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On 19/12/2017 at 5:40 PM, shiaman14 said:

So if we asked an Akhbari to go into taqleed of any of these scholars, what would their answer be?

 

On 19/12/2017 at 6:38 PM, Sirius_Bright said:

The greats like Saduq and Tusi collected and compiled traditions of fiqh according to the topics and people used to refer it for their day to day life issues.

 

On 19/12/2017 at 7:12 PM, shiaman14 said:

Essentially, that is what taqleed is. 

On 23/12/2017 at 7:29 AM, just a muslim said:

truth is, sunnis accept bukharis hadith. yes. but they dont follow him. the reason is that the hadith are not of imam bukhari. the hadith is a saying of the prophet. sunnis, as well as akhbaris, accept the sayings of the prophet. even if imam bukhari hadnt collected those ahadith, sunnis would have accepted those ahadith in whichever book they found them. not because they follow scholars. but because the follow hadith.

 

4 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

I am well aware of the 4 Sunni schools and the history of the 4 Imams but thanks all the same. Fact is modern and historic Sunni scholars use Bukhari to issue rulings so indirectly Imam Bukhari is being followed or at the very least relied upon.

 

Bro to me it looks like you still are not very clear about the difference between a hadith book and a risala and hence your confusion about taqleed. 

Believing in a hadith book is not taqleed.

 

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12 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

If both of you brothers @haideriam and @shiaman14 can stop arguing on what you believe. They are more or less same thing.

I wonder why don't anyone now start a thread 'Unity within Shias'. Why don't anyone feel that zionists are trying to divide the shias within for such petty things.

Fighting among ourselves and longing for unity with others is stupidity. Please behave with your Momin brothers.

I have been most polite and accommodating with my bro and forgive him for his present transgressions. 

We need these kind of reminders again and again. 

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Just now, haideriam said:

I have been most polite and accommodating with my bro and forgive him for his present transgressions. 

We need these kind of reminders again and again. 

Your sarcasm and his witty response is well-known. These things are required and appreciated at right time and right place but not to a believer brother when trying to prove your point by degrading him. This should be followed by everyone starting with myself.

Ayatullah Dastaghaib Shirazi has brought a chapter in his book  The Forty-third Greater Sin: Insulting a Believer

 

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@Sirius_Bright

OK . We shall exclude the most in the highlighted above. 

:clap:

and it is my prayer that we all realise that we are brothers here and come to communicate and more importantly learn from each other. 

 

Edited by haideriam

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On 12/24/2017 at 3:45 AM, Sirius_Bright said:

If both of you brothers @haideriam and @shiaman14 can stop arguing on what you believe. They are more or less same thing.

I wonder why don't anyone now start a thread 'Unity within Shias'. Why don't anyone feel that zionists are trying to divide the shias within for such petty things.

Fighting among ourselves and longing for unity with others is stupidity. Please behave with your Momin brothers.

Salaam brother, not to anyone's amazement, I responded to OP on the topic and was trying to stick to the topic whereas HIA is focused on me...as usual. Funnily enough, HIA was on hiatus for a few months and cmae back and immediately responded to my 4-5 most recent posts. Talk about being infatuated...

Back to the topic at hand, what I was alluding to was that an Akhbari has no problem taking a hadith from a book written by Sheikh Tusi but if Sheikh Tusi made a ruling or issued a fatwa using the same hadith, the Akhbari would reject it.

They retort with "only Quran and Hadith" and no mujtahids but then they have their own scholars who they listen to and obviously follow. Essentially, they say, "we reject all mujtahids but accept our own scholars"

We can even take it further and say that Akhbaris actually do taqleed of Muhammad al-Astarabadi started or formalized this concept because they follow his rulings on using the 4 books and nothing else.

Akhbaris are no different than Salafis except Salafis are sunni and follow Ibn Taymiyah and Akhbaris are shia and follow Astarabadi.

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On 12/24/2017 at 3:59 AM, haideriam said:

I have been most polite and accommodating with my bro and forgive him for his present transgressions. 

We need these kind of reminders again and again. 

Who was seeking your forgiveness? I am still waiting for you to thank me for teaching you arithmetic.

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